GNU bug report logs - #79094
[wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp

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Package: emacs; Severity: wishlist; Reported by: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>; dated Fri, 25 Jul 2025 13:25:02 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
bug No longer marked as fixed in versions 31.1 and reopened. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs@HIDDEN> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

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From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
To: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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Version: 31.1

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes:

Hi Joe,

>> Sorry, I've been on a family vacation and haven't had a chance to
>> test. I'm hoping to have some time today.=20
>
> Is there something I could help?

Well, no further problem reported for weeks. I'll close the bug; pls
report if you see problems with Tramp's implementation of the new mechanis=
m.

Btw, I haven't seen your name yet on the list of FSF contributors. Do
you have problems in getting copyright papers from FSF?

Best regards, Michael.
Notification sent to "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>:
bug acknowledged by developer. Full text available.
Reply sent to Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>:
You have taken responsibility. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
To: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN> writes:

Hi Joe,

> Sorry, I've been on a family vacation and haven't had a chance to
> test. I'm hoping to have some time today.=20

Is there something I could help?

Best regards, Michael.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
To: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN> writes:

Hi Joe,

> Sorry, I've been on a family vacation and haven't had a chance to
> test. I'm hoping to have some time today.=20

No problem, take your time.

Best regards, Michael.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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--35dcfea0-207d-4a79-a53b-e8d6e2d3ee30-1
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Sorry, I've been on a family vacation and haven't had a chance to test. I=
'm hoping to have some time today.=C2=A0


August 5, 2025 at 6:03 AM, "Michael Albinus" <michael.albinus@HIDDEN mail=
to:michael.albinus@HIDDEN?to=3D%22Michael%20Albinus%22%20%3Cmichael.albin=
us%40gmx.de%3E > wrote:


>=20
>=20Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes:
>=20
>=20Hi Joe,
>=20
>=20>=20
>=20> >=20
>=20> > That would be perfect for this application. I will definitely tes=
t it
> > >  out. I'm assuming this patch is for unstable emacs?
> > >=20
>=20>  Yes. Emacs 30 is closed for new features.
> >=20
>=20I've pushed the patch to the repositories.
>=20
>=20>=20
>=20> >=20
>=20> > Joe
> > >
> >=20
>=20Best regards, Michael.
>
--35dcfea0-207d-4a79-a53b-e8d6e2d3ee30-1
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"t=
ext/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body><div>Sorry, I've been on a family=
 vacation and haven't had a chance to test. I'm hoping to have some time =
today.=C2=A0<br><br></div><p>August 5, 2025 at 6:03 AM, "Michael Albinus"=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.albinus@HIDDEN?to=3D%22Michael%20Albinus%2=
2%20%3Cmichael.albinus%40gmx.de%3E" target=3D"_blank" tabindex=3D"-1">mic=
hael.albinus@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</p><blockquote>Michael Albinus &lt;mic=
hael.albinus@HIDDEN&gt; writes:<br><br>Hi Joe,<br><br><blockquote><blockq=
uote>That would be perfect for this application. I will definitely test i=
t<br> out. I'm assuming this patch is for unstable emacs?</blockquote><br=
> Yes. Emacs 30 is closed for new features.</blockquote><br>I've pushed t=
he patch to the repositories.<br><br><blockquote><blockquote>Joe</blockqu=
ote></blockquote><br>Best regards, Michael.</blockquote><div><br></div></=
body></html>
--35dcfea0-207d-4a79-a53b-e8d6e2d3ee30-1--
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> writes:

Hi Joe,

>> That would be perfect for this application. I will definitely test it
>> out. I'm assuming this patch is for unstable emacs? =20
>
> Yes. Emacs 30 is closed for new features.

I've pushed the patch to the repositories.

>> Joe

Best regards, Michael.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN> writes:

Hi Joe,

I went through the current version of tramp-hlo.el. Besides of the
proposed infrastructure change, there's not too much to say now. The
file needs some formatting change (don't excedd 80 chars width), and the
header might be in more sync with other files in GNU ELPA:

There are some documentation nitpicks. The first line in a docstring
shall be finished with a period. Two sentences shall be divided by two
space characters. Something like this, see (info "(elisp) Documentation Tips")

Tramp is written in documentation "Tramp", and Emacs is written
"Emacs". Capitalized.

For the ;;; Commentary section, I'll provide you an info link into the
Tramp manual, describing this approach. Once available.

For my taste, some more comments would be useful.

You see, all of this is rather minor :-)

> Joe

Best regards, Michael.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN> writes:

Hi Joe,

> That would be perfect for this application. I will definitely test it
> out. I'm assuming this patch is for unstable emacs? =20

Yes. Emacs 30 is closed for new features.

> What would you say if I made a version using advice functions for
> emacs 30, and another using tramp external operations for unstable?

That's not needed. Tramp is also available on GNU ELPA. The next release
for GNU ELPA, 2.8.0.2, planned for the end of this month, will include
my patch.

Tramp 2.8 is backward compatible down to Emacs 28.

All what you need in your package is a line like the following in the
head of the file:

=2D-8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
;; Package-Requires: ((tramp "2.8"))
=2D-8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

> Joe

Best regards, Michael.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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--8d0d2933-3b19-4878-a606-05d815851389-1
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That would be perfect for this application. I will definitely test it out=
. I'm assuming this patch is for unstable emacs?=C2=A0=C2=A0

Also, I saw with-parse-tramp-file-name and considered using it. However t=
he macro I wrote for the advice function form of these operations already=
 has to dissect the filename to check if its a valid tramp file, so I wan=
ted to reuse the parse that already happened. However in the case of your=
 new tramp external operations it completely makes sense.

What would you say if I made a version using advice functions for emacs 3=
0, and another using tramp external operations for unstable?

Joe


August 2, 2025 at 11:35 AM, "Michael Albinus" <michael.albinus@HIDDEN mai=
lto:michael.albinus@HIDDEN?to=3D%22Michael%20Albinus%22%20%3Cmichael.albi=
nus%40gmx.de%3E > wrote:


>=20
>=20"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN> writes:
>=20
>=20Hi Joe,
>=20
>=20>=20
>=20> I've pushed changes to address all the issues except for the remain=
ing
> >  roundtrip in tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file. My first attempt at tha=
t
> >  one broke some functionality, so it'll take a little trial and error
> >  and I didn't want to hold up the rest.
> >=20
>=20Thanks. I still need to review this.
>=20
>=20However, I'm working on a WIP patch, which adds the infrastructure to
> Tramp for adding new handlers for operations, which aren't foreseen
> yet. Essentially, there are two new functions:
>=20
>=20--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> tramp-add-external-operation is a byte-code-function in =E2=80=98tramp.=
el=E2=80=99.
>=20
>=20(tramp-add-external-operation OPERATION FUNCTION BACKEND)
>=20
>=20Add FUNTION to Tramp BACKEND as handler for OPERATION.
> OPERATION must not be one the the magic operations listed in Info
> node =E2=80=98(elisp) Magic File Names=E2=80=99. FUNCTION must have the=
 same argument
> list as OPERATION. BACKEND, a symbol, must be one of the Tramp backend
> packages like =E2=80=98tramp-sh=E2=80=99.
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>=20
>=20--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> tramp-remove-external-operation is a byte-code-function in =E2=80=98tra=
mp.el=E2=80=99.
>=20
>=20(tramp-remove-external-operation OPERATION BACKEND)
>=20
>=20Remove OPERATION from Tramp BACKEND as handler for OPERATION.
> OPERATION must not be one the the magic operations listed in Info
> node =E2=80=98(elisp) Magic File Names=E2=80=99. BACKEND, a symbol, mus=
t be one of the
> Tramp backend packages like =E2=80=98tramp-sh=E2=80=99.
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>=20
>=20So all what you need to do is something like this:
>=20
>=20--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>=20
>=20(defun setup-tramp-hlo ()
>  "Setup tramp high-level functions.
> Adds advice functions with tramp implementations for the following emac=
s
> built-in functions:
> - `dir-locals--all-files'
> - `locate-dominating-file'
> - `dir-locals-find-file'"
>  (interactive)
>  (tramp-add-external-operation
>  #'dir-locals--all-files
>  #'tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files 'tramp-sh)
>  (tramp-add-external-operation
>  #'locate-dominating-file
>  #'tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file 'tramp-sh)
>  (tramp-add-external-operation
>  #'dir-locals-find-file
>  #'tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file 'tramp-sh)
>  )
>=20
>=20(defun remove-tramp-hlo ()
>  "Remove tramp high-level functions.
> Remove tramp advice functions for the following emacs built-in function=
s:
> - `dir-locals--all-files'
> - `locate-dominating-file'
> - `dir-locals-find-file'"
>  (interactive)
>  (tramp-remove-external-operation
>  #'dir-locals--all-files 'tramp-sh)
>  (tramp-remove-external-operation
>  #'locate-dominating-file 'tramp-sh)
>  (tramp-remove-external-operation
>  #'dir-locals-find-file 'tramp-sh)
>  )
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>=20
>=20tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files, tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file and
> tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file don't need any longer the first argument=
,
> orig-fun. And you can get rid of tramp-hlo-advice.
>=20
>=20In your own backend implementations, I recommend to use the macro
>=20
>=20--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> (with-parsed-tramp-file-name nil file ...)
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>=20
>=20This creates for you the variables 'v' (the tramp-file-name structure=
 of
> 'file') as well as 'method', 'user', 'host' and 'localname' (the
> respective parts of the remote file name 'file'.
>=20
>=20The Tramp patch is appended. Do you like to test it?
>=20
>=20>=20
>=20> Joe
> >=20
>=20Best regards, Michael.
>
--8d0d2933-3b19-4878-a606-05d815851389-1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"t=
ext/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body><div>That would be perfect for th=
is application. I will definitely test it out. I'm assuming this patch is=
 for unstable emacs?=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Also, I saw wit=
h-parse-tramp-file-name and considered using it. However the macro I wrot=
e for the advice function form of these operations already has to dissect=
 the filename to check if its a valid tramp file, so I wanted to reuse th=
e parse that already happened. However in the case of your new tramp exte=
rnal operations it completely makes sense.</div><div><br></div><div>What =
would you say if I made a version using advice functions for emacs 30, an=
d another using tramp external operations for unstable?</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Joe<br><br></div><p>August 2, 2025 at 11:35 AM, "Michael Albinus"=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:michael.albinus@HIDDEN?to=3D%22Michael%20Albinus%2=
2%20%3Cmichael.albinus%40gmx.de%3E" target=3D"_blank" tabindex=3D"-1">mic=
hael.albinus@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</p><blockquote>"Joe Sadusk" &lt;joe@sa=
dusk.com&gt; writes:<br><br>Hi Joe,<br><br><blockquote>I've pushed change=
s to address all the issues except for the remaining<br> roundtrip in tra=
mp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file. My first attempt at that<br> one broke some =
functionality, so it'll take a little trial and error<br> and I didn't wa=
nt to hold up the rest.</blockquote><br>Thanks. I still need to review th=
is.<br><br>However, I'm working on a WIP patch, which adds the infrastruc=
ture to<br>Tramp for adding new handlers for operations, which aren't for=
eseen<br>yet. Essentially, there are two new functions:<br><br>--8&lt;---=
------------cut here---------------start-------------&gt;8---<br>tramp-ad=
d-external-operation is a byte-code-function in =E2=80=98tramp.el=E2=80=
=99.<br><br>(tramp-add-external-operation OPERATION FUNCTION BACKEND)<br>=
<br>Add FUNTION to Tramp BACKEND as handler for OPERATION.<br>OPERATION m=
ust not be one the the magic operations listed in Info<br>node =E2=80=98(=
elisp) Magic File Names=E2=80=99.  FUNCTION must have the same argument<b=
r>list as OPERATION.  BACKEND, a symbol, must be one of the Tramp backend=
<br>packages like =E2=80=98tramp-sh=E2=80=99.<br>--8&lt;---------------cu=
t here---------------end---------------&gt;8---<br><br>--8&lt;-----------=
----cut here---------------start-------------&gt;8---<br>tramp-remove-ext=
ernal-operation is a byte-code-function in =E2=80=98tramp.el=E2=80=99.<br=
><br>(tramp-remove-external-operation OPERATION BACKEND)<br><br>Remove OP=
ERATION from Tramp BACKEND as handler for OPERATION.<br>OPERATION must no=
t be one the the magic operations listed in Info<br>node =E2=80=98(elisp)=
 Magic File Names=E2=80=99. BACKEND, a symbol, must be one of the<br>Tram=
p backend packages like =E2=80=98tramp-sh=E2=80=99.<br>--8&lt;-----------=
----cut here---------------end---------------&gt;8---<br><br>So all what =
you need to do is something like this:<br><br>--8&lt;---------------cut h=
ere---------------start-------------&gt;8---<br><br>(defun setup-tramp-hl=
o ()<br>  "Setup tramp high-level functions.<br>Adds advice functions wit=
h tramp implementations for the following emacs<br>built-in functions:<br=
>- `dir-locals--all-files'<br>- `locate-dominating-file'<br>- `dir-locals=
-find-file'"<br>  (interactive)<br>  (tramp-add-external-operation<br>   =
#'dir-locals--all-files<br>   #'tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files 'tramp-sh=
)<br>  (tramp-add-external-operation<br>   #'locate-dominating-file<br>  =
 #'tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file 'tramp-sh)<br>  (tramp-add-external-o=
peration<br>   #'dir-locals-find-file<br>   #'tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-f=
ile 'tramp-sh)<br>  )<br><br>(defun remove-tramp-hlo ()<br>  "Remove tram=
p high-level functions.<br>Remove tramp advice functions for the followin=
g emacs built-in functions:<br>- `dir-locals--all-files'<br>- `locate-dom=
inating-file'<br>- `dir-locals-find-file'"<br>  (interactive)<br>  (tramp=
-remove-external-operation<br>   #'dir-locals--all-files 'tramp-sh)<br>  =
(tramp-remove-external-operation<br>   #'locate-dominating-file 'tramp-sh=
)<br>  (tramp-remove-external-operation<br>   #'dir-locals-find-file 'tra=
mp-sh)<br>  )<br>--8&lt;---------------cut here---------------end--------=
-------&gt;8---<br><br>tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files, tramp-hlo-locate-=
dominating-file and<br>tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file don't need any long=
er the first argument,<br>orig-fun. And you can get rid of tramp-hlo-advi=
ce.<br><br>In your own backend implementations, I recommend to use the ma=
cro<br><br>--8&lt;---------------cut here---------------start------------=
-&gt;8---<br>(with-parsed-tramp-file-name nil file ...)<br>--8&lt;-------=
--------cut here---------------end---------------&gt;8---<br><br>This cre=
ates for you the variables 'v' (the tramp-file-name structure of<br>'file=
') as well as 'method', 'user', 'host' and 'localname' (the<br>respective=
 parts of the remote file name 'file'.<br><br>The Tramp patch is appended=
. Do you like to test it?<br><br><blockquote>Joe</blockquote><br>Best reg=
ards, Michael.</blockquote><div><br></div></body></html>
--8d0d2933-3b19-4878-a606-05d815851389-1--
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
To: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN> writes:

Hi Joe,

> I've pushed changes to address all the issues except for the remaining
> roundtrip in tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file. My first attempt at that
> one broke some functionality, so it'll take a little trial and error
> and I didn't want to hold up the rest.

Thanks. I still need to review this.

However, I'm working on a WIP patch, which adds the infrastructure to
Tramp for adding new handlers for operations, which aren't foreseen
yet. Essentially, there are two new functions:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
tramp-add-external-operation is a byte-code-function in =E2=80=98tramp.el=
=E2=80=99.

(tramp-add-external-operation OPERATION FUNCTION BACKEND)

Add FUNTION to Tramp BACKEND as handler for OPERATION.
OPERATION must not be one the the magic operations listed in Info
node =E2=80=98(elisp) Magic File Names=E2=80=99.  FUNCTION must have the sa=
me argument
list as OPERATION.  BACKEND, a symbol, must be one of the Tramp backend
packages like =E2=80=98tramp-sh=E2=80=99.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
tramp-remove-external-operation is a byte-code-function in =E2=80=98tramp.e=
l=E2=80=99.

(tramp-remove-external-operation OPERATION BACKEND)

Remove OPERATION from Tramp BACKEND as handler for OPERATION.
OPERATION must not be one the the magic operations listed in Info
node =E2=80=98(elisp) Magic File Names=E2=80=99. BACKEND, a symbol, must be=
 one of the
Tramp backend packages like =E2=80=98tramp-sh=E2=80=99.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

So all what you need to do is something like this:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---

(defun setup-tramp-hlo ()
  "Setup tramp high-level functions.
Adds advice functions with tramp implementations for the following emacs
built-in functions:
- `dir-locals--all-files'
- `locate-dominating-file'
- `dir-locals-find-file'"
  (interactive)
  (tramp-add-external-operation
   #'dir-locals--all-files
   #'tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files 'tramp-sh)
  (tramp-add-external-operation
   #'locate-dominating-file
   #'tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file 'tramp-sh)
  (tramp-add-external-operation
   #'dir-locals-find-file
   #'tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file 'tramp-sh)
  )

(defun remove-tramp-hlo ()
  "Remove tramp high-level functions.
Remove tramp advice functions for the following emacs built-in functions:
- `dir-locals--all-files'
- `locate-dominating-file'
- `dir-locals-find-file'"
  (interactive)
  (tramp-remove-external-operation
   #'dir-locals--all-files 'tramp-sh)
  (tramp-remove-external-operation
   #'locate-dominating-file 'tramp-sh)
  (tramp-remove-external-operation
   #'dir-locals-find-file 'tramp-sh)
  )
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files, tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file and
tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file don't need any longer the first argument,
orig-fun. And you can get rid of tramp-hlo-advice.

In your own backend implementations, I recommend to use the macro

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(with-parsed-tramp-file-name nil file ...)
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

This creates for you the variables 'v' (the tramp-file-name structure of
'file') as well as 'method', 'user', 'host' and 'localname' (the
respective parts of the remote file name 'file'.

The Tramp patch is appended. Do you like to test it?

> Joe

Best regards, Michael.


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: attachment
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

diff --git a/lisp/tramp.el b/lisp/tramp.el
index 2208ce88..b8012f59 100644
=2D-- a/lisp/tramp.el
+++ b/lisp/tramp.el
@@ -2380,6 +2380,9 @@ arguments to pass to the OPERATION."
 	 signal-hook-function)
     (apply operation args)))
=20
+(defvar tramp-file-name-for-operation-external nil
+  "List of operations added by external packages.")
+
 ;; We handle here all file primitives.  Most of them have the file
 ;; name as first parameter; nevertheless we check for them explicitly
 ;; in order to be signaled if a new primitive appears.  This
@@ -2387,6 +2390,10 @@ arguments to pass to the OPERATION."
 ;; syntactical means whether a foreign method must be called.  It would
 ;; ease the life if `file-name-handler-alist' would support a decision
 ;; function as well but regexp only.
+;; Operations added by external packages are added to
+;; `tramp-file-name-for-operation-external'.  They expect the file
+;; name to be checked as first argument or, if there isn't any
+;; argument, `default-directory'.
 (defun tramp-file-name-for-operation (operation &rest args)
   "Return file name related to OPERATION file primitive.
 ARGS are the arguments OPERATION has been called with.
@@ -2396,40 +2403,40 @@ first argument of `expand-file-name' is absolute a=
nd not remote.
 Must be handled by the callers."
   (cond
    ;; FILE resp DIRECTORY.
-   ((member operation
-	    '(access-file byte-compiler-base-file-name delete-directory
-	      delete-file diff-latest-backup-file directory-file-name
-	      directory-files directory-files-and-attributes dired-compress-file
-	      dired-uncache file-acl file-accessible-directory-p file-attributes
-	      file-directory-p file-executable-p file-exists-p file-local-copy
-	      file-locked-p file-modes file-name-as-directory
-	      file-name-case-insensitive-p file-name-directory
-	      file-name-nondirectory file-name-sans-versions
-	      file-notify-add-watch file-ownership-preserved-p file-readable-p
-	      file-regular-p file-remote-p file-selinux-context file-symlink-p
-	      file-system-info file-truename file-writable-p
-	      find-backup-file-name get-file-buffer
-	      insert-directory insert-file-contents load lock-file make-director=
y
-	      make-lock-file-name set-file-acl set-file-modes
-	      set-file-selinux-context set-file-times substitute-in-file-name
-	      unhandled-file-name-directory unlock-file vc-registered
-	      ;; Emacs 28- only.
-	      make-directory-internal
-	      ;; Emacs 29+ only.
-	      abbreviate-file-name
-	      ;; Tramp internal magic file name function.
-	      tramp-set-file-uid-gid))
+   ((memq operation
+	  '(access-file byte-compiler-base-file-name delete-directory
+	    delete-file diff-latest-backup-file directory-file-name
+	    directory-files directory-files-and-attributes dired-compress-file
+	    dired-uncache file-acl file-accessible-directory-p file-attributes
+	    file-directory-p file-executable-p file-exists-p file-local-copy
+	    file-locked-p file-modes file-name-as-directory
+	    file-name-case-insensitive-p file-name-directory
+	    file-name-nondirectory file-name-sans-versions
+	    file-notify-add-watch file-ownership-preserved-p file-readable-p
+	    file-regular-p file-remote-p file-selinux-context file-symlink-p
+	    file-system-info file-truename file-writable-p
+	    find-backup-file-name get-file-buffer
+	    insert-directory insert-file-contents load lock-file make-directory
+	    make-lock-file-name set-file-acl set-file-modes
+	    set-file-selinux-context set-file-times substitute-in-file-name
+	    unhandled-file-name-directory unlock-file vc-registered
+	    ;; Emacs 28- only.
+	    make-directory-internal
+	    ;; Emacs 29+ only.
+	    abbreviate-file-name
+	    ;; Tramp internal magic file name function.
+	    tramp-set-file-uid-gid))
     (if (file-name-absolute-p (nth 0 args))
 	(nth 0 args)
       default-directory))
    ;; STRING FILE.
    ((eq operation 'make-symbolic-link) (nth 1 args))
    ;; FILE DIRECTORY resp FILE1 FILE2.
-   ((member operation
-	    '(add-name-to-file copy-directory copy-file
-	      file-equal-p file-in-directory-p
-	      file-name-all-completions file-name-completion
-	      file-newer-than-file-p rename-file))
+   ((memq operation
+	  '(add-name-to-file copy-directory copy-file
+	    file-equal-p file-in-directory-p
+	    file-name-all-completions file-name-completion
+	    file-newer-than-file-p rename-file))
     (cond
      ((tramp-tramp-file-p (nth 0 args)) (nth 0 args))
      ((file-name-absolute-p (nth 1 args)) (nth 1 args))
@@ -2446,29 +2453,34 @@ Must be handled by the callers."
 	(nth 2 args)
       default-directory))
    ;; BUFFER.
-   ((member operation
-	    '(make-auto-save-file-name
-	      set-visited-file-modtime verify-visited-file-modtime))
+   ((memq operation
+	  '(make-auto-save-file-name
+	    set-visited-file-modtime verify-visited-file-modtime))
     (buffer-file-name
      (if (bufferp (nth 0 args)) (nth 0 args) (current-buffer))))
    ;; COMMAND.
-   ((member operation
-	    '(exec-path make-nearby-temp-file make-process process-file
-	      shell-command start-file-process temporary-file-directory
-	      ;; Emacs 29+ only.
-              list-system-processes memory-info process-attributes
-              ;; Emacs 30+ only.
-	      file-group-gid file-user-uid))
+   ((memq operation
+	  '(exec-path make-nearby-temp-file make-process process-file
+	    shell-command start-file-process temporary-file-directory
+	    ;; Emacs 29+ only.
+            list-system-processes memory-info process-attributes
+            ;; Emacs 30+ only.
+	    file-group-gid file-user-uid))
     default-directory)
    ;; PROC.
-   ((member operation '(file-notify-rm-watch file-notify-valid-p))
+   ((memq operation '(file-notify-rm-watch file-notify-valid-p))
     (when (processp (nth 0 args))
       (tramp-get-default-directory (process-buffer (nth 0 args)))))
    ;; VEC.
-   ((member operation
-	    '(tramp-get-home-directory tramp-get-remote-gid
-	      tramp-get-remote-groups tramp-get-remote-uid))
+   ((memq operation
+	  '(tramp-get-home-directory tramp-get-remote-gid
+	    tramp-get-remote-groups tramp-get-remote-uid))
     (tramp-make-tramp-file-name (nth 0 args)))
+   ;; FILE resp DIRECTORY.
+   ((memq operation tramp-file-name-for-operation-external)
+    (if (file-name-absolute-p (nth 0 args))
+	(nth 0 args)
+      default-directory))
    ;; Unknown file primitive.
    (t (error "Unknown file I/O primitive: %s" operation))))
=20
@@ -2494,6 +2506,65 @@ Must be handled by the callers."
 		res (cdr elt))))
       res)))
=20
+(defun tramp-add-external-operation (operation function backend)
+  "Add FUNTION to Tramp BACKEND as handler for OPERATION.
+OPERATION must not be one the the magic operations listed in Info
+node `(elisp) Magic File Names'.  FUNCTION must have the same argument
+list as OPERATION.  BACKEND, a symbol, must be one of the Tramp backend
+packages like `tramp-sh'."
+  (require backend)
+  ;; Make BACKEND aware of the new operation.
+  (when-let* ((fnha
+	       (intern
+		(concat (symbol-name backend) "-file-name-handler-alist")))
+	      ((boundp fnha)))
+    (add-to-list fnha (cons operation function)))
+  (unless (memq operation tramp-file-name-for-operation-external)
+    ;; Make Tramp aware of the new operation.
+    (add-to-list 'tramp-file-name-for-operation-external operation)
+    (put #'tramp-file-name-handler
+	 'operations
+         (cons operation (get 'tramp-file-name-handler 'operations)))
+    ;; Add an advice for OPERATION, in order to invoke the handler FUNCTI=
ON.
+    (advice-add
+     operation :around
+     `(lambda (orig-fun &rest args)
+	(if-let* ((handler (find-file-name-handler (car args) #',operation)))
+	    (apply handler #',operation args)
+	  (apply orig-fun args)))
+     `((name . ,(concat "tramp-advice-" (symbol-name operation)))))))
+
+(defun tramp-remove-external-operation (operation backend)
+  "Remove OPERATION from Tramp BACKEND as handler for OPERATION.
+OPERATION must not be one the the magic operations listed in Info
+node `(elisp) Magic File Names'. BACKEND, a symbol, must be one of the
+Tramp backend packages like `tramp-sh'."
+  ;; Remove OPERATION from BACKEND.
+  (when-let* ((fnha
+	       (intern
+		(concat (symbol-name backend) "-file-name-handler-alist")))
+	      ((boundp fnha)))
+    (setf (alist-get operation (symbol-value fnha) nil 'remove) nil))
+  ;; Check, whether OPERATION is still used in any backend.
+  (unless (seq-some
+	   (lambda (fnha)
+	     (unless (eq 'tramp-ftp-file-name-handler (cdr fnha))
+	       ;; Load backend.
+	       (funcall (symbol-function (car fnha)) "/")
+	       (alist-get
+		operation
+		(symbol-value
+		 (intern (concat (symbol-name (cdr fnha)) "-alist"))))))
+	   tramp-foreign-file-name-handler-alist)
+    ;; Make Tramp unaware of OPERATION.
+    (setq tramp-file-name-for-operation-external
+	  (delq operation tramp-file-name-for-operation-external))
+    (put #'tramp-file-name-handler
+	 'operations
+         (delete operation (get 'tramp-file-name-handler 'operations)))
+    ;; Remove an advice for OPERATION.
+    (advice-remove operation (concat "tramp-advice-" (symbol-name operati=
on)))))
+
 ;; Main function.
 ;;;###autoload
 (defun tramp-file-name-handler (operation &rest args)

--=-=-=--
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
To: "Michael Albinus" <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
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--a48566e1-aa66-4c7d-a74e-82bd1ba35607-1
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Don't bother yet, I just realized I pushed with a bug. I'll update when I=
've got it working for real.


July 30, 2025 at 10:33 PM, "Michael Albinus" <michael.albinus@HIDDEN mail=
to:michael.albinus@HIDDEN?to=3D%22Michael%20Albinus%22%20%3Cmichael.albin=
us%40gmx.de%3E > wrote:


>=20
>=20"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN> writes:
>=20
>=20Hi Joe,
>=20
>=20>=20
>=20> I've pushed changes to address all the issues except for the remain=
ing
> >  roundtrip in tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file. My first attempt at tha=
t
> >  one broke some functionality, so it'll take a little trial and error
> >  and I didn't want to hold up the rest.
> >=20
>=20I'm busy these days. Will check over the weekend.
>=20=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20> >=20
>=20> > I ask it now, because the process can be fast, or not ... And we =
don't
> > >  want to be blocked by legal issues :-)
> > >=20
>=20>  Happy to sign it over. I want to make this as widely accessible as=
 possible.
> >=20
>=20Template sent off-list.
>=20
>=20>=20
>=20> Joe
> >=20
>=20Best regards, Michael.
>
--a48566e1-aa66-4c7d-a74e-82bd1ba35607-1
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<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"t=
ext/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body><div>Don't bother yet, I just rea=
lized I pushed with a bug. I'll update when I've got it working for real.=
<br><br></div><p>July 30, 2025 at 10:33 PM, "Michael Albinus" &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:michael.albinus@HIDDEN?to=3D%22Michael%20Albinus%22%20%3Cmicha=
el.albinus%40gmx.de%3E" target=3D"_blank" tabindex=3D"-1">michael.albinus=
@gmx.de</a>&gt; wrote:</p><blockquote>"Joe Sadusk" &lt;joe@HIDDEN&gt;=
 writes:<br><br>Hi Joe,<br><br><blockquote>I've pushed changes to address=
 all the issues except for the remaining<br> roundtrip in tramp-hlo-dir-l=
ocals-find-file. My first attempt at that<br> one broke some functionalit=
y, so it'll take a little trial and error<br> and I didn't want to hold u=
p the rest.</blockquote><br>I'm busy these days. Will check over the week=
end.<br> <br><blockquote><blockquote>I ask it now, because the process ca=
n be fast, or not ... And we don't<br> want to be blocked by legal issues=
 :-)</blockquote><br> Happy to sign it over. I want to make this as widel=
y accessible as possible.</blockquote><br>Template sent off-list.<br><br>=
<blockquote>Joe</blockquote><br>Best regards, Michael.</blockquote><div><=
br></div></body></html>
--a48566e1-aa66-4c7d-a74e-82bd1ba35607-1--
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN> writes:

Hi Joe,

> I've pushed changes to address all the issues except for the remaining
> roundtrip in tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file. My first attempt at that
> one broke some functionality, so it'll take a little trial and error
> and I didn't want to hold up the rest.

I'm busy these days. Will check over the weekend.
=20
>> I ask it now, because the process can be fast, or not ... And we don't
>> want to be blocked by legal issues :-)
>
> Happy to sign it over. I want to make this as widely accessible as possi=
ble.

Template sent off-list.

> Joe

Best regards, Michael.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
To: "Michael Albinus" <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
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July 26, 2025 at 12:33 AM, "Michael Albinus" <michael.albinus@HIDDEN mail=
to:michael.albinus@HIDDEN?to=3D%22Michael%20Albinus%22%20%3Cmichael.albin=
us%40gmx.de%3E > wrote:

I've pushed changes to address all the issues except for the remaining ro=
undtrip in tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file. My first attempt at that one b=
roke some functionality, so it'll take a little trial and error and I did=
n't want to hold up the rest.

> > > I believe this is worth to give it to the public. Since Tramp is ju=
st
> > >  the implementation of core magic file operations, I believe it mig=
ht be
> > >  better offered as GNU ELPA package. But I may be wrong, let's see =
what
> > >  other people think.
> > >=20
>=20>  I realized after posting in emacs-devel that tramp handlers are
> >  restricted to the magic file handlers, so I agree that this would wo=
rk
> >  better as an ELPA module. I'll plan to rework this into a user
> >  accessible module. Would it make sense to make this a minor mode?
> >=20
>=20It would need to be a global minor mode. The only advance I see is th=
at
> you can enable/disable it with predefined command names, but that's not
> different from calling configure-tramp-hlo.
>=20
>=20Your package does not define key bindings, and it does not offer hook=
s,
> which would be another reason for a minor mode. There's no user option
> to customize. And there's no major mode which would like to enable your
> minor mode by default.

Got it, makes sense as a global overlay rather than a mode.

> > >=20
>=20> > First of all, I had to adapt tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files. It =
misses
> > >  the argument '&optional base-el-only', and I got an error at runti=
me.
> > >=20
>=20>  Is that an argument in master? I'm looking at the implementation o=
f
> >  dir-locals--all-files in 30.1 and it only has a single directory
> >  argument.
> >=20
>=20Yes, it is a recent change, commit 81c21d89ede8 in Emacs master. See
> also bug#75890.

Noted, I'm now testing with master and stable to ensure compatibilty.=20

>=20> > I would introduce a macro, like
> > >=20=20
>=20> >  (defmacro tramp-hlo-active-p (file)
> > >  `(and-let* ((non-essential t)
> > >  (vec (ignore-errors
> > >  (tramp-dissect-file-name (expand-file-name ,file))))
> > >  ((tramp-sh-file-name-handler-p vec)))))
> > >=20=20
>=20> >  Then you can write
> > >=20=20
>=20> >  (if (tramp-hlo-active-p directory)
> > >=20
>=20>  Definitely, this was least effort for the experiment. I had actual=
ly
> >  considered writing a small framework for defining per-protocol
> >  high-level handlers, similar to tramp-file-handlers-alist. This woul=
d
> >  also allow other modules to add their own handlers.

I took your idea and ran with it, making it a little more concise. See th=
e tramp-hlo-advice macro.

> > > file-attributes could cause another round-trip to the remote. Perha=
ps
> > >  you expand your script(s) to return also some file attributes alre=
ady,
> > >  associated with the file name(s), like tramp-bundle-read-file-name=
s does.
> > >=20
>=20>  That was definitely one of my plans, but it is looking at mtime fo=
r
> >  the file returned from cache, which might not be the same file queri=
ed
> >  earlier in the function. I could filter the cache for all filenames =
on
> >  the same remote, and look up all of them in the script.
> >=20
>=20Let's discuss this with your next cede version.

I'm still tweaking this. The way to make it work is a script specific to =
`dir-locals-find-file` which checks for dominating files and cache direct=
ories in one go. This however reworks the flow of the original dir-locals=
-find-file function, which is currently mostly a cut and paste of the ori=
ginal. I am trying to ensure it is 100% workalike before adding this chan=
ge.
=20
>=20> Would this make sense as a minor-mode? Or should it just have a fun=
ction to add and remove advices?
> >=20
>=20The latter, I believe.

There's now a setup-tramp-hlo and remove-tramp-hlo, and they're interacti=
ve.

> Another question: if we bring this code to Tramp core or to GNU ELPA,
> the copyright must be assigned to the FSF. There are some papers to be
> signed. Would you be willing to do so?
>=20
>=20I ask it now, because the process can be fast, or not ... And we don'=
t
> want to be blocked by legal issues :-)

Happy to sign it over. I want to make this as widely accessible as possib=
le.

Joe
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
To: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
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"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN> writes:

Hi Joe,

>> Yes, this is a common problem in Tramp. There are already also some att=
empts to
>> optimize Tramp, see the places tramp-bundle-read-file-names is used.
>
> Makes sense, let me know if there are any optimizations duplicated in
> the main tramp codebase, or any that would better fit there.

No, in Tramp's codebase there are no optimizations like yours (yet).

>> I believe this is worth to give it to the public. Since Tramp is just
>> the implementation of core magic file operations, I believe it might be
>> better offered as GNU ELPA package. But I may be wrong, let's see what
>> other people think.
>
> I realized after posting in emacs-devel that tramp handlers are
> restricted to the magic file handlers, so I agree that this would work
> better as an ELPA module. I'll plan to rework this into a user
> accessible module. Would it make sense to make this a minor mode?

It would need to be a global minor mode. The only advance I see is that
you can enable/disable it with predefined command names, but that's not
different from calling configure-tramp-hlo.

Your package does not define key bindings, and it does not offer hooks,
which would be another reason for a minor mode. There's no user option
to customize. And there's no major mode which would like to enable your
minor mode by default.

>> First of all, I had to adapt tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files. It misses
>> the argument '&optional base-el-only', and I got an error at runtime.
>
> Is that an argument in master? I'm looking at the implementation of
> dir-locals--all-files in 30.1 and it only has a single directory
> argument.

Yes, it is a recent change, commit 81c21d89ede8 in Emacs master. See
also bug#75890.

>> I would introduce a macro, like
>>=20
>> (defmacro tramp-hlo-active-p (file)
>>  `(and-let* ((non-essential t)
>>  (vec (ignore-errors
>>  (tramp-dissect-file-name (expand-file-name ,file))))
>>  ((tramp-sh-file-name-handler-p vec)))))
>>=20
>> Then you can write
>>=20
>> (if (tramp-hlo-active-p directory)
>
> Definitely, this was least effort for the experiment. I had actually
> considered writing a small framework for defining per-protocol
> high-level handlers, similar to tramp-file-handlers-alist. This would
> also allow other modules to add their own handlers.

Good idea. But this can wait until needed.

>> file-attributes could cause another round-trip to the remote. Perhaps
>> you expand your script(s) to return also some file attributes already,
>> associated with the file name(s), like tramp-bundle-read-file-names doe=
s.
>
> That was definitely one of my plans, but it is looking at mtime for
> the file returned from cache, which might not be the same file queried
> earlier in the function. I could filter the cache for all filenames on
> the same remote, and look up all of them in the script.

Let's discuss this with your next cede version.

> Would this make sense as a minor-mode? Or should it just have a function=
 to add and remove advices?

The latter, I believe.

Another question: if we bring this code to Tramp core or to GNU ELPA,
the copyright must be assigned to the FSF. There are some papers to be
signed. Would you be willing to do so?

I ask it now, because the process can be fast, or not ... And we don't
want to be blocked by legal issues :-)

> Joe

Best regards, Michael.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 79094 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Thanks for the feedback! I'm happy to make some changes.=20

>=20Yes, this is a common problem in Tramp. There are already also some a=
ttempts to
> optimize Tramp, see the places tramp-bundle-read-file-names is used.

Makes sense, let me know if there are any optimizations duplicated in the=
 main tramp codebase, or any that would better fit there.

> I believe this is worth to give it to the public. Since Tramp is just
> the implementation of core magic file operations, I believe it might be
> better offered as GNU ELPA package. But I may be wrong, let's see what
> other people think.

I realized after posting in emacs-devel that tramp handlers are restricte=
d to the magic file handlers, so I agree that this would work better as a=
n ELPA module. I'll plan to rework this into a user accessible module. Wo=
uld it make sense to make this a minor mode?

> First of all, I had to adapt tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files. It misses
> the argument '&optional base-el-only', and I got an error at runtime.

Is that an argument in master? I'm looking at the implementation of dir-l=
ocals--all-files in 30.1 and it only has a single directory argument.

> > (defgroup tramp-hlo nil
> >  "High level operations as tramp handlers"
> >  :group 'tools)

> I believe you don't need it. You have no defcustom or defface to place
> it there. And even if you would have it, the defgroup 'tramp' would be
> sufficient.

Good point, I've always just defined groups for every module without cons=
idering whether its necessary. I can see some defcustoms for enabling fea=
tures though, let me see what it looks like as I flesh out functionality.


> The docstrings are very terse. Please explain which arguments are
> expected, and what will be the result.

Absolutely, this was a minimal first effort to get the experiment working=
. I'll fill these out properly.
=20

>=20Please quote Lisp symbols in docstrings `like-this'. The first senten=
ce
> of a docstring must finish with a period. And again, explain arguiments
> and the result of the function. This yields also for the other
> docstrings.

Noted.
=20

>=20Well, you have this for almost all functions. And this doesn't work, =
if
> directory is relative file name, or it is handled by another Tramp
> backend but tramp-sh.el.
>=20
>=20I would introduce a macro, like
>=20
>=20(defmacro tramp-hlo-active-p (file)
>  `(and-let* ((non-essential t)
>  (vec (ignore-errors
>  (tramp-dissect-file-name (expand-file-name ,file))))
>  ((tramp-sh-file-name-handler-p vec)))))
>=20
>=20Then you can write
>=20
>=20(if (tramp-hlo-active-p directory)

Definitely, this was least effort for the experiment. I had actually cons=
idered writing a small framework for defining per-protocol high-level han=
dlers, similar to tramp-file-handlers-alist. This would also allow other =
modules to add their own handlers.


> You don't need connection here, you have vec which knows everything
> about the remote file name. Call
>=20
>=20(mapcar (lambda (name) (tramp-make-tramp-file-name vec name))


> You don't need connection as argument. Use tramp-make-tramp-file-name
> where appropriate.

Got it, I didn't know the right function to format a connection string fr=
om vec. This is much better.

> Pls use the accessor functions for vec. In this case, use
>=20
>=20(let* ((localfile (tramp-file-name-localname vec))

Noted.

> Please donm't quote with '"'. This works often enough, but if, for
> example, name contains a quotation mark itself, you're lost. Use instea=
d
>=20
>=20(quoted-names (mapcar #'tramp-shell-quote-argument names))

Great, I was afraid of these escaping issues but didn't know there was a =
function available for it. Thanks.

> In this function, you have implemented an own cache. Consider using
> tramp-cache.el, it is more powerful. For example. it handles also cache
> expiration, and much more.

This isn't my cache, is the cache from dir-locals. This function is a mos=
tly copy and paste from emacs/lisp/files.el:dir-locals-find-file, with th=
e initial call to locate-dominating-file reworked. I couldn't think of a =
way to reuse the old function but still avoid round-trips, hence the copy=
-paste. But I still need to use the same cache dir-locals creates in orde=
r to be compatible with the parsing mechanism.
=20

>=20file-attributes could cause another round-trip to the remote. Perhaps
> you expand your script(s) to return also some file attributes already,
> associated with the file name(s), like tramp-bundle-read-file-names doe=
s.

That was definitely one of my plans, but it is looking at mtime for the f=
ile returned from cache, which might not be the same file queried earlier=
 in the function. I could filter the cache for all filenames on the same =
remote, and look up all of them in the script.=20
=20=20

>=20Please add also a function to remove the advices. And shouldn't this =
be interactive?

Absolutely, this was a minimal effort to make it work. I'll clean up the =
user-facing interface. Would this make sense as a minor-mode? Or should i=
t just have a function to add and remove advices?

Joe
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
To: "Michael Albinus" <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
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Thanks for the feedback! I'm happy to make some changes.=20

>=20Yes, this is a common problem in Tramp. There are already also some a=
ttempts to
> optimize Tramp, see the places tramp-bundle-read-file-names is used.

Makes sense, let me know if there are any optimizations duplicated in the=
 main tramp codebase, or any that would better fit there.

> I believe this is worth to give it to the public. Since Tramp is just
> the implementation of core magic file operations, I believe it might be
> better offered as GNU ELPA package. But I may be wrong, let's see what
> other people think.

I realized after posting in emacs-devel that tramp handlers are restricte=
d to the magic file handlers, so I agree that this would work better as a=
n ELPA module. I'll plan to rework this into a user accessible module. Wo=
uld it make sense to make this a minor mode?

> First of all, I had to adapt tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files. It misses
> the argument '&optional base-el-only', and I got an error at runtime.

Is that an argument in master? I'm looking at the implementation of dir-l=
ocals--all-files in 30.1 and it only has a single directory argument.

> > (defgroup tramp-hlo nil
> >  "High level operations as tramp handlers"
> >  :group 'tools)

> I believe you don't need it. You have no defcustom or defface to place
> it there. And even if you would have it, the defgroup 'tramp' would be
> sufficient.

Good point, I've always just defined groups for every module without cons=
idering whether its necessary. I can see some defcustoms for enabling fea=
tures though, let me see what it looks like as I flesh out functionality.


> The docstrings are very terse. Please explain which arguments are
> expected, and what will be the result.

Absolutely, this was a minimal first effort to get the experiment working=
. I'll fill these out properly.
=20

>=20Please quote Lisp symbols in docstrings `like-this'. The first senten=
ce
> of a docstring must finish with a period. And again, explain arguiments
> and the result of the function. This yields also for the other
> docstrings.

Noted.
=20

>=20Well, you have this for almost all functions. And this doesn't work, =
if
> directory is relative file name, or it is handled by another Tramp
> backend but tramp-sh.el.
>=20
>=20I would introduce a macro, like
>=20
>=20(defmacro tramp-hlo-active-p (file)
>  `(and-let* ((non-essential t)
>  (vec (ignore-errors
>  (tramp-dissect-file-name (expand-file-name ,file))))
>  ((tramp-sh-file-name-handler-p vec)))))
>=20
>=20Then you can write
>=20
>=20(if (tramp-hlo-active-p directory)

Definitely, this was least effort for the experiment. I had actually cons=
idered writing a small framework for defining per-protocol high-level han=
dlers, similar to tramp-file-handlers-alist. This would also allow other =
modules to add their own handlers.


> You don't need connection here, you have vec which knows everything
> about the remote file name. Call
>=20
>=20(mapcar (lambda (name) (tramp-make-tramp-file-name vec name))


> You don't need connection as argument. Use tramp-make-tramp-file-name
> where appropriate.

Got it, I didn't know the right function to format a connection string fr=
om vec. This is much better.

> Pls use the accessor functions for vec. In this case, use
>=20
>=20(let* ((localfile (tramp-file-name-localname vec))

Noted.

> Please donm't quote with '"'. This works often enough, but if, for
> example, name contains a quotation mark itself, you're lost. Use instea=
d
>=20
>=20(quoted-names (mapcar #'tramp-shell-quote-argument names))

Great, I was afraid of these escaping issues but didn't know there was a =
function available for it. Thanks.

> In this function, you have implemented an own cache. Consider using
> tramp-cache.el, it is more powerful. For example. it handles also cache
> expiration, and much more.

This isn't my cache, is the cache from dir-locals. This function is a mos=
tly copy and paste from emacs/lisp/files.el:dir-locals-find-file, with th=
e initial call to locate-dominating-file reworked. I couldn't think of a =
way to reuse the old function but still avoid round-trips, hence the copy=
-paste. But I still need to use the same cache dir-locals creates in orde=
r to be compatible with the parsing mechanism.
=20

>=20file-attributes could cause another round-trip to the remote. Perhaps
> you expand your script(s) to return also some file attributes already,
> associated with the file name(s), like tramp-bundle-read-file-names doe=
s.

That was definitely one of my plans, but it is looking at mtime for the f=
ile returned from cache, which might not be the same file queried earlier=
 in the function. I could filter the cache for all filenames on the same =
remote, and look up all of them in the script.=20
=20=20

>=20Please add also a function to remove the advices. And shouldn't this =
be interactive?

Absolutely, this was a minimal effort to make it work. I'll clean up the =
user-facing interface. Would this make sense as a minor-mode? Or should i=
t just have a function to add and remove advices?

Joe
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
To: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#79094: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
In-Reply-To: <87ikjgo13n.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> Hi, long time emacs user, first time contributor.

Hi Joe,
I much appreciate your ideas. I've played a little bit with the code,
here are my first remarks.

> I maintain an emacs config for my company's dev environment, which is
> primarily using remote workstations, so the config makes heavy use of
> tramp. I did some digging to find the source of some pauses and delays
> that happen during navigation and file open, particularly when remote
> dir-locals are enabled. And I found that a major piece of these pauses
> comes from calls to locate-dominating-file. This function doesn't have
> a tramp specific implementation, and so it loops in lisp, making many
> small tramp calls for things like expand-file-name, file-exists-p,
> file-directory-p, each of which issue a tramp-send-command and incur a
> round-trip to the server.

Yes, this is a common problem in Tramp. There are already also some attemp=
ts to
optimize Tramp, see the places tramp-bundle-read-file-names is used.

> My remote workstation connection has somewhat bad latency, each tramp
> roundtrip appears to take around 0.15s. Clocking a call to do
> (locate-dominating-file "/some/file/deep/in/a/repo" ".git") took over
> 2 seconds. This gets even worse when locate-dominating-file is used by
> dir-locals-find-file, because it uses the predicate form of
> locate-dominating-file, and the predicate does multiple tramp round
> trips itself. (dir-locals-find-file "/some/file/deep/in/a/repo") took
> over 3 seconds. This kind of a delay pops up when opening a file,
> reverting, traversing directories, making the dev experience much less
> fluid.
>
> So I did an experiment to see if I could implement these operations to
> use a single tramp round-trip, or as few as possible. The result is
> here:
> https://github.com/jsadusk/tramp-hlo
>
> The result is a huge improvement. dir-locals-find-file went from 3+
> seconds to 0.18 seconds, with only 1 or 2 tramp-send-commands. This
> also hugely speeds up vc-mode, which many people turn off for tramp to
> optmize speed. Mind you, this is on my workstation, which is a fairly
> stock Ubuntu 22.04 machine. I haven't tested this on the myriad of
> environments tramp has to work with. I'm sure there are edge cases I'm
> missing. But its working great for me, so I'm treating this as a proof
> of concept. I also wrote this as an advice function rather than a
> tramp handler, so I could turn it on and off easily. A real version of
> this would be vetted across many environments and be properly
> integrated with tramp-sh.el.=20
>
> So I wanted to see what people think about this approach and if its
> worth turning into a real patch for tramp? And if there's any advice
> on making it more comprehensive? Also, I'm searching out other higher
> level operations that could be made into server side tramp scripts, if
> anyone knows of some good targets.
>
> So please, comment, critique, tell me I'm doing it wrong, or give me
> the goahead and I'll be happy to make a patch.

I believe this is worth to give it to the public. Since Tramp is just
the implementation of core magic file operations, I believe it might be
better offered as GNU ELPA package. But I may be wrong, let's see what
other people think.

Here are my first comments on the code after playing with it for an hour
or so. All my proposals for change are rather untested, so you should
use them with care.

First of all, I had to adapt tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files. It misses
the argument '&optional base-el-only', and I got an error at runtime.

> (defgroup tramp-hlo nil
>   "High level operations as tramp handlers"
>   :group 'tools)

I believe you don't need it. You have no defcustom or defface to place
it there. And even if you would have it, the defgroup 'tramp' would be
sufficient.

> (defconst tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files-script
>   "Script to check for dir-locals in a remote dir"
>=20
> (defconst tramp-hlo-list-parents-script
>   "Script to list all parents in upward order of a directory, with home =
abbreviations"
>=20
> (defconst tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file-script
>   "Script to find a dominating file directory on a remote host"
>=20
> (defconst tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file-multi-script
>   "Script to find several dominating files on a remote host"

The docstrings are very terse. Please explain which arguments are
expected, and what will be the result.

> (defun tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all-files (orig-fun directory &optional bas=
e-el-only)
>   "Tramp version of dir-locals--all-files"

Please quote Lisp symbols in docstrings `like-this'.  The first sentence
of a docstring must finish with a period. And again, explain arguiments
and the result of the function. This yields also for the other
docstrings.

>   (let ((connection (file-remote-p directory)))
>     (if connection

Well, you have this for almost all functions. And this doesn't work, if
directory is relative file name, or it is handled by another Tramp
backend but tramp-sh.el.

I would introduce a macro, like

(defmacro tramp-hlo-active-p (file)
  `(and-let* ((non-essential t)
	      (vec (ignore-errors
		     (tramp-dissect-file-name (expand-file-name ,file))))
	      ((tramp-sh-file-name-handler-p vec)))))

Then you can write

(if (tramp-hlo-active-p directory)

>           (mapcar (lambda (name) (concat connection name))

You don't need connection here, you have vec which knows everything
about the remote file name. Call

(mapcar (lambda (name) (tramp-make-tramp-file-name vec name))
=20
> (defun tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file-pred (connection vec file pred)
>   "Implementation of tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file for a name predica=
te"

You don't need connection as argument. Use tramp-make-tramp-file-name
where appropriate.
=20
> (defun tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file-list (connection vec file names)
>   "Implementation of tramp-hlo-locate-dominating-file for a list of name=
s"

Same for connection.

>   (let* ((localfile (nth 6 vec))

Pls use the accessor functions for vec. In this case, use

(let* ((localfile (tramp-file-name-localname vec))

>          (quoted-names (mapcar (lambda (name) (format "\"%s\"" name)) na=
mes))

Please donm't quote with '"'. This works often enough, but if, for
example, name contains a quotation mark itself, you're lost. Use instead

(quoted-names (mapcar #'tramp-shell-quote-argument names))

> (defun tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-file (orig-fun file)
>   "Tramp implementation of dir-locals-find-file"

In this function, you have implemented an own cache. Consider using
tramp-cache.el, it is more powerful. For example. it handles also cache
expiration, and much more.

>         (let* ((locals-files (tramp-hlo-find-dominating-files (file-name=
-directory file)
>                                                    '(".dir-locals.el" ".=
dir-locals-2.el")))

...

> 					(file-attribute-modification-time
> 					 (file-attributes f))))

file-attributes could cause another round-trip to the remote. Perhaps
you expand your script(s) to return also some file attributes already,
associated with the file name(s), like tramp-bundle-read-file-names does.
=20
> (defun configure-tramp-hlo ()
>   (advice-add 'dir-locals--all-files :around #'tramp-hlo-dir-locals--all=
-files)
>   (advice-add 'locate-dominating-file :around #'tramp-hlo-locate-dominat=
ing-file)
>   (advice-add 'dir-locals-find-file :around #'tramp-hlo-dir-locals-find-=
file)
>   )

Please add also a function to remove the advices. And shouldn't this be in=
teractive?

> Joe Sadusk

Best regards, Michael.
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.
Changed bug submitter to '"Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>' from 'Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>' Request was from Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: [wishlist] Optimizations for round trips in tramp
X-Debbugs-Cc: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


-------------------- Start of forwarded message --------------------
From: "Joe Sadusk" <joe@HIDDEN>
Subject: Optimizations for round trips in tramp
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 17:30:53 +0000
To: emacs-devel@HIDDEN


--=-=-=
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="==-=-="

--==-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, long time emacs user, first time contributor. I maintain an emacs confi=
g for my company's dev environment, which is primarily using remote worksta=
tions, so the config makes heavy use of tramp. I did some digging to find t=
he source of some pauses and delays that happen during navigation and file =
open, particularly when remote dir-locals are enabled. And I found that a m=
ajor piece of these pauses comes from calls to locate-dominating-file. This=
 function doesn't have a tramp specific implementation, and so it loops in =
lisp, making many small tramp calls for things like expand-file-name, file-=
exists-p, file-directory-p, each of which issue a tramp-send-command and in=
cur a round-trip to the server.

My remote workstation connection has somewhat bad latency, each tramp round=
trip appears to take around 0.15s. Clocking a call to do (locate-dominating=
-file "/some/file/deep/in/a/repo" ".git") took over 2 seconds. This gets ev=
en worse when locate-dominating-file is used by dir-locals-find-file, becau=
se it uses the predicate form of locate-dominating-file, and the predicate =
does multiple tramp round trips itself. (dir-locals-find-file=C2=A0"/some/f=
ile/deep/in/a/repo") took over 3 seconds. This kind of a delay pops up when=
 opening a file, reverting, traversing directories, making the dev experien=
ce much less fluid.

So I did an experiment to see if I could implement these operations to use =
a single tramp round-trip, or as few as possible. The result is here:
https://github.com/jsadusk/tramp-hlo

The result is a huge improvement. dir-locals-find-file went from 3+ seconds=
 to 0.18 seconds, with only 1 or 2 tramp-send-commands. This also hugely sp=
eeds up vc-mode, which many people turn off for tramp to optmize speed. Min=
d you, this is on my workstation, which is a fairly stock Ubuntu 22.04 mach=
ine. I haven't tested this on the myriad of environments tramp has to work =
with. I'm sure there are edge cases I'm missing. But its working great for =
me, so I'm treating this as a proof of concept. I also wrote this as an adv=
ice function rather than a tramp handler, so I could turn it on and off eas=
ily. A real version of this would be vetted across many environments and be=
 properly integrated with tramp-sh.el.=C2=A0

So I wanted to see what people think about this approach and if its worth t=
urning into a real patch for tramp? And if there's any advice on making it =
more comprehensive? Also, I'm searching out other higher level operations t=
hat could be made into server side tramp scripts, if anyone knows of some g=
ood targets.

So please, comment, critique, tell me I'm doing it wrong, or give me the go=
ahead and I'll be happy to make a patch.=C2=A0

Joe Sadusk
--==-=-=
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE html><html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"tex=
t/html; charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body><div>Hi, long time emacs user, first =
time contributor. I maintain an emacs config for my company's dev environme=
nt, which is primarily using remote workstations, so the config makes heavy=
 use of tramp. I did some digging to find the source of some pauses and del=
ays that happen during navigation and file open, particularly when remote d=
ir-locals are enabled. And I found that a major piece of these pauses comes=
 from calls to locate-dominating-file. This function doesn't have a tramp s=
pecific implementation, and so it loops in lisp, making many small tramp ca=
lls for things like expand-file-name, file-exists-p, file-directory-p, each=
 of which issue a tramp-send-command and incur a round-trip to the server.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>My remote workstation connection has somewhat bad =
latency, each tramp roundtrip appears to take around 0.15s. Clocking a call=
 to do (locate-dominating-file "/some/file/deep/in/a/repo" ".git") took ove=
r 2 seconds. This gets even worse when locate-dominating-file is used by di=
r-locals-find-file, because it uses the predicate form of locate-dominating=
-file, and the predicate does multiple tramp round trips itself. (dir-local=
s-find-file=C2=A0"/some/file/deep/in/a/repo") took over 3 seconds. This kin=
d of a delay pops up when opening a file, reverting, traversing directories=
, making the dev experience much less fluid.</div><div><br></div><div>So I =
did an experiment to see if I could implement these operations to use a sin=
gle tramp round-trip, or as few as possible. The result is here:</div><div>=
<a href=3D"https://github.com/jsadusk/tramp-hlo">https://github.com/jsadusk=
/tramp-hlo</a></div><div><br></div><div>The result is a huge improvement. d=
ir-locals-find-file went from 3+ seconds to 0.18 seconds, with only 1 or 2 =
tramp-send-commands. This also hugely speeds up vc-mode, which many people =
turn off for tramp to optmize speed. Mind you, this is on my workstation, w=
hich is a fairly stock Ubuntu 22.04 machine. I haven't tested this on the m=
yriad of environments tramp has to work with. I'm sure there are edge cases=
 I'm missing. But its working great for me, so I'm treating this as a proof=
 of concept. I also wrote this as an advice function rather than a tramp ha=
ndler, so I could turn it on and off easily. A real version of this would b=
e vetted across many environments and be properly integrated with tramp-sh.=
el.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>So I wanted to see what people think abo=
ut this approach and if its worth turning into a real patch for tramp? And =
if there's any advice on making it more comprehensive? Also, I'm searching =
out other higher level operations that could be made into server side tramp=
 scripts, if anyone knows of some good targets.</div><div><br></div><div>So=
 please, comment, critique, tell me I'm doing it wrong, or give me the goah=
ead and I'll be happy to make a patch.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Joe S=
adusk</div></body></html>
--==-=-=--

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Content-Type: text/plain

-------------------- End of forwarded message --------------------

--=-=-=--
Acknowledgement sent to Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to joe@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to joe@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#79094; Package emacs. Full text available.
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