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Subject: bug#79445: `ln -s` should raise a warning about pwd-relative vs symlink-location-relative targets
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 Content preview: When my current working directory is `/foo` and contains
 `bar`
 and I need `/example/bar` to be a symlink to `/foo/bar`, it seems intuitive
 that `ln -s bar /example/bar` should accomplish that. But it [...] 
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When my current working directory is `/foo` and contains `bar` and I need
`/example/bar` to be a symlink to `/foo/bar`, it seems intuitive that `ln
-s bar /example/bar` should accomplish that. But it doesn't; instead it
makes `/example/bar` a symlink that points to itself, because `ln -s` makes
relative paths relative to the symlink's location rather than (like all
other coreutils commands I know of) relative to the current directory.

It seems to me it should be easy enough to alert users to this gotcha by
printing a warning to stderr when creating a symlink whose location is an
absolute path and whose target isn't. But not only doesn't that warning
occur, but there isn't even an entry for it at
https://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/coreutils-gotchas.html. This sort of thing
seems to me to be a likely huge turnoff for non-technical people who might
otherwise be using Linux on the desktop. Can we please implement this
warning?

Sincerely,
Chris Hennick

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>When my current working directory is `/foo` and conta=
ins `bar` and I need `/example/bar` to be a symlink to `/foo/bar`, it seems=
 intuitive that `ln -s bar /example/bar` should accomplish that. But it doe=
sn&#39;t; instead it makes `/example/bar` a symlink that points to itself,=
=C2=A0because `ln -s` makes relative=C2=A0paths relative to the symlink&#39=
;s location rather than (like all other coreutils commands I know of) relat=
ive to the current directory.</div><div><br></div><div>It seems to me it sh=
ould be easy enough to alert users to this gotcha by printing a warning to =
stderr when creating a symlink whose location is an absolute path and whose=
 target isn&#39;t. But not=C2=A0only doesn&#39;t that warning occur, but th=
ere isn&#39;t even an entry for it at=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.pixelbeat=
.org/docs/coreutils-gotchas.html">https://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/coreutils-=
gotchas.html</a>. This sort of thing seems to me to be a likely huge=C2=A0t=
urnoff for non-technical people who might otherwise be using Linux on the d=
esktop. Can we please implement=C2=A0this warning?</div><div><br></div><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signatu=
re"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Sincerely,<br>Chris Hennick=
</div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Chris <seahen123@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#79445: Acknowledgement (`ln -s` should raise a warning about
 pwd-relative vs symlink-location-relative targets)
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Subject: bug#79445: `ln -s` should raise a warning about pwd-relative vs symlink-location-relative targets
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On 2025-09-13 03:16, Chris wrote:
> It seems to me it should be easy enough to alert users to this gotcha by
> printing a warning to stderr when creating a symlink

I dunno, that gotcha has been present in Unix and Linux for nearly 50 
years now, and lots of people are used to the gotcha would plausibly 
object to a warning.

Message sent to bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#79445: `ln -s` should raise a warning about pwd-relative vs symlink-location-relative targets
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Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> writes:

> On 2025-09-13 03:16, Chris wrote:
>> It seems to me it should be easy enough to alert users to this gotcha by
>> printing a warning to stderr when creating a symlink
>
> I dunno, that gotcha has been present in Unix and Linux for nearly 50
> years now, and lots of people are used to the gotcha would plausibly
> object to a warning.

FWIW, relative symbolic links and dangling symlinks are covered in the
manual. You can read it online [1], or using the following command in
your terminal:

    $ info '(coreutils) ln invocation'

I agree that it probably is a point of confusion for someones first
encountering symbolic links, but it is a perfectly valid use of them. So
I think emitting a warning there would cause some complaints.

New warnings tend to surprise people. I'm sure Paul remembers the many
long threads about the warning that 'egrep' and 'fgrep' are obsolete. :)

Collin

[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/ln-invocation.html#ln-invocation

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Isn't it better to surprise users who know what they're doing with a
warning, than to surprise users who *don't* know what they're doing with
the lack of one?

On Sat, Sep 13, 2025 at 11:54=E2=80=AFPM Collin Funk <collin.funk1@HIDDEN=
m> wrote:

> Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > On 2025-09-13 03:16, Chris wrote:
> >> It seems to me it should be easy enough to alert users to this gotcha =
by
> >> printing a warning to stderr when creating a symlink
> >
> > I dunno, that gotcha has been present in Unix and Linux for nearly 50
> > years now, and lots of people are used to the gotcha would plausibly
> > object to a warning.
>
> FWIW, relative symbolic links and dangling symlinks are covered in the
> manual. You can read it online [1], or using the following command in
> your terminal:
>
>     $ info '(coreutils) ln invocation'
>
> I agree that it probably is a point of confusion for someones first
> encountering symbolic links, but it is a perfectly valid use of them. So
> I think emitting a warning there would cause some complaints.
>
> New warnings tend to surprise people. I'm sure Paul remembers the many
> long threads about the warning that 'egrep' and 'fgrep' are obsolete. :)
>
> Collin
>
> [1]
> https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/ln-invocation.htm=
l#ln-invocation
>

--00000000000060fe97063ebf5528
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Isn&#39;t it better to surprise users who know what they&#=
39;re doing with a warning, than to surprise users who *don&#39;t* know wha=
t they&#39;re doing with the lack of one?</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Sep =
13, 2025 at 11:54=E2=80=AFPM Collin Funk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:collin.funk1=
@gmail.com">collin.funk1@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Paul Eggert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eggert@=
cs.ucla.edu" target=3D"_blank">eggert@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt; On 2025-09-13 03:16, Chris wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; It seems to me it should be easy enough to alert users to this got=
cha by<br>
&gt;&gt; printing a warning to stderr when creating a symlink<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I dunno, that gotcha has been present in Unix and Linux for nearly 50<=
br>
&gt; years now, and lots of people are used to the gotcha would plausibly<b=
r>
&gt; object to a warning.<br>
<br>
FWIW, relative symbolic links and dangling symlinks are covered in the<br>
manual. You can read it online [1], or using the following command in<br>
your terminal:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ info &#39;(coreutils) ln invocation&#39;<br>
<br>
I agree that it probably is a point of confusion for someones first<br>
encountering symbolic links, but it is a perfectly valid use of them. So<br=
>
I think emitting a warning there would cause some complaints.<br>
<br>
New warnings tend to surprise people. I&#39;m sure Paul remembers the many<=
br>
long threads about the warning that &#39;egrep&#39; and &#39;fgrep&#39; are=
 obsolete. :)<br>
<br>
Collin<br>
<br>
[1] <a href=3D"https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/ln-i=
nvocation.html#ln-invocation" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/ln-invocation.html#ln-invoc=
ation</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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--000000000000f94f18063ebf7592
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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PS. This is about more than just learnability for newbies -- this issue
tripped me up after 18 years of using Linux as a desktop and/or dev
environment, because I ran into the rare case where a program (in this case
https://github.com/bbuhrow/yafu/) needed a separate working directory for
each instance and was useful to run multiple instances of in parallel (in
this case, factoring multiple different composites for https://factordb.com=
/
).

Sincerely,
Chris Hennick


On Sun, Sep 14, 2025 at 2:15=E2=80=AFAM Chris <seahen123@HIDDEN> wrote:

> Isn't it better to surprise users who know what they're doing with a
> warning, than to surprise users who *don't* know what they're doing with
> the lack of one?
>
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2025 at 11:54=E2=80=AFPM Collin Funk <collin.funk1@gmail.=
com>
> wrote:
>
>> Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> writes:
>>
>> > On 2025-09-13 03:16, Chris wrote:
>> >> It seems to me it should be easy enough to alert users to this gotcha
>> by
>> >> printing a warning to stderr when creating a symlink
>> >
>> > I dunno, that gotcha has been present in Unix and Linux for nearly 50
>> > years now, and lots of people are used to the gotcha would plausibly
>> > object to a warning.
>>
>> FWIW, relative symbolic links and dangling symlinks are covered in the
>> manual. You can read it online [1], or using the following command in
>> your terminal:
>>
>>     $ info '(coreutils) ln invocation'
>>
>> I agree that it probably is a point of confusion for someones first
>> encountering symbolic links, but it is a perfectly valid use of them. So
>> I think emitting a warning there would cause some complaints.
>>
>> New warnings tend to surprise people. I'm sure Paul remembers the many
>> long threads about the warning that 'egrep' and 'fgrep' are obsolete. :)
>>
>> Collin
>>
>> [1]
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/ln-invocation.ht=
ml#ln-invocation
>>
>

--000000000000f94f18063ebf7592
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>PS. This is about more than just learnability for new=
bies -- this issue tripped me up after 18 years of using Linux as a desktop=
 and/or dev environment,=C2=A0because I ran into the=C2=A0rare case where a=
 program (in this case=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/bbuhrow/yafu/">ht=
tps://github.com/bbuhrow/yafu/</a>) needed a separate working=C2=A0director=
y for each instance and was useful to run multiple instances of in parallel=
 (in this case, factoring multiple different composites for=C2=A0<a href=3D=
"https://factordb.com/">https://factordb.com/</a>).</div><div><br></div><di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signat=
ure"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Sincerely,<br>Chris Hennic=
k</div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep =
14, 2025 at 2:15=E2=80=AFAM Chris &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seahen123@HIDDEN=
">seahen123@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Isn&#39;t it better to surprise users=
 who know what they&#39;re doing with a warning, than to surprise users who=
 *don&#39;t* know what they&#39;re doing with the lack of one?</div><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Sep 1=
3, 2025 at 11:54=E2=80=AFPM Collin Funk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:collin.funk1@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">collin.funk1@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Paul Eggert &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:eggert@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eggert@HIDDEN</a>&gt;=
 writes:<br>
<br>
&gt; On 2025-09-13 03:16, Chris wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; It seems to me it should be easy enough to alert users to this got=
cha by<br>
&gt;&gt; printing a warning to stderr when creating a symlink<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I dunno, that gotcha has been present in Unix and Linux for nearly 50<=
br>
&gt; years now, and lots of people are used to the gotcha would plausibly<b=
r>
&gt; object to a warning.<br>
<br>
FWIW, relative symbolic links and dangling symlinks are covered in the<br>
manual. You can read it online [1], or using the following command in<br>
your terminal:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 $ info &#39;(coreutils) ln invocation&#39;<br>
<br>
I agree that it probably is a point of confusion for someones first<br>
encountering symbolic links, but it is a perfectly valid use of them. So<br=
>
I think emitting a warning there would cause some complaints.<br>
<br>
New warnings tend to surprise people. I&#39;m sure Paul remembers the many<=
br>
long threads about the warning that &#39;egrep&#39; and &#39;fgrep&#39; are=
 obsolete. :)<br>
<br>
Collin<br>
<br>
[1] <a href=3D"https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/ln-i=
nvocation.html#ln-invocation" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/ln-invocation.html#ln-invoc=
ation</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Collin Funk <collin.funk1@HIDDEN>
To: control <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: 79445 is a wishlist item
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2025 20:24:54 -0700
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severity 79445 wishlist
thanks

Collin

Last modified: Mon, 15 Sep 2025 03:30:05 UTC

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