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From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#79485: 31.0.50; Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2025 12:15:56 +0100
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> The idea is that "db" is only replaced when it matches the entire symbol=
due to the #. "mvlp-" on the other
>> hand is replaced whenever it occurs as the prefix of a symbol.
>
> I think we should wait with enhancements
Just my 2c that any "enhancements" should really be a CL-like package
system, a tried and tested way to organize symbols in a Lisp virtual
machine. I think there is a branch for that, but integration is likely
complex and even more likely it'll face immense opposition from people
used to global namespaces. I've 0 plans to defend it. But it'd be a
million times cleaner than shorthands, which as I've said many times is
really just a local hack.
> until after the bug mentioned by Jo=C3=A3o is fixed.
I've had a look at this. The problem seems to happen when
load-with-code-conversion is skipped for .el-like files. That function
let-binds read-symbol-shorthands appropriately (potentially/often to nil
if there are no shorthands). If it's skipped, any bindings up the stack
stay active. So the function is skipped for:
1. byte compiled files (no matter if pre-compiled into by Emacs builds or
custom). This is the source of the original problem.
=20=20=20
2. package.el also nullifies load-source-file-function (and thus also
skips l-w-c-conversion) smetimes, citing a 2x speedup and betting
that the .el file doesn't require code conversion. I didn't
investigate this a lot, but if whichever files package.el is loading
don't require code conversion, then chances are they also don't
require shorthands. Anyway, something to watch out for.
The simple patch after my sig fixes 1, I think. Please test it.
For 2, I don't have time to look into it (and as far as can tell, no
problems have been reported, I'm just speculating)
Jo=C3=A3o
diff --git a/src/lread.c b/src/lread.c
index 1a667ce163a..be855f0cd2a 100644
--- a/src/lread.c
+++ b/src/lread.c
@@ -2207,6 +2207,12 @@ readevalloop (Lisp_Object readcharfun,
=20
specbind (Qstandard_input, readcharfun);
=20
+ /* In an .elc file, all shorthand expansion has alreay taken place, so
+ make sure we disable any read-symbol-shorthands set higher up a
+ recursive load stack . */
+ if (STRINGP (sourcename) && suffix_p (sourcename, ".elc"))
+ specbind (Qread_symbol_shorthands, Qnil);
+
/* If lexical binding is active (either because it was specified in
the file's header, or via a buffer-local variable), create an empty
lexical environment, otherwise, turn off lexical binding. */
@@ -5907,6 +5913,7 @@ syms_of_lread (void)
doc: /* Function to decide default lexical-binding. */);
Vinternal__get_default_lexical_binding_function =3D Qnil;
=20
+ DEFSYM (Qread_symbol_shorthands, "read-symbol-shorthands");
DEFVAR_LISP ("read-symbol-shorthands", Vread_symbol_shorthands,
doc: /* Alist of known symbol-name shorthands.
This variable's value can only be set via file-local variables.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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(message from David Rosenbaum on Mon, 22 Sep 2025 15:17:48 -0700)
Subject: Re: bug#79485: 31.0.50; Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands
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> From: David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2025 15:17:48 -0700
> Cc: joaotavora@HIDDEN, 79485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>
> I think package authors are already aware that all prefixes will be replaced. It's just that there don't seem to
> be good alternatives for dealing with these sorts of namespace issues as all the options have downsides.
>
> I already mentioned what I wrote below but I forgot to reply all and also may not have been particularly clear
> anyway so I'll try again.
>
> My preferred solution would be to make a special character cause the whole symbol to be matched instead
> of just the prefix. # is already not readable at the start of a symbol so it seems like that wouldn't cause
> conflicts. For example:
>
> ;; read-symbol-shorthands: (
> ;; ("mvlp-" . "my-very-long-prefix-")
> ;; ("#db" . "cl-destructuring-bind"))
>
> The idea is that "db" is only replaced when it matches the entire symbol due to the #. "mvlp-" on the other
> hand is replaced whenever it occurs as the prefix of a symbol.
I think we should wait with enhancements until after the bug mentioned
by João is fixed.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Subject: Re: bug#79485: 31.0.50; Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands
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I think package authors are already aware that all prefixes will be
replaced. It's just that there don't seem to be good alternatives for
dealing with these sorts of namespace issues as all the options have
downsides.
I already mentioned what I wrote below but I forgot to reply all and also
may not have been particularly clear anyway so I'll try again.
My preferred solution would be to make a special character cause the whole
symbol to be matched instead of just the prefix. # is already not readable
at the start of a symbol so it seems like that wouldn't cause conflicts.
For example:
;; read-symbol-shorthands: (
;; ("mvlp-" . "my-very-long-prefix-")
;; ("#db" . "cl-destructuring-bind"))
The idea is that "db" is only replaced when it matches the entire symbol
due to the #. "mvlp-" on the other hand is replaced whenever it occurs as
the prefix of a symbol.
On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 12:25=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote=
:
> > From: David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2025 10:04:21 -0700
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 79485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > > Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbol names=
,
> so the db idea is probably not
> > going to work. As far as I remember, these things were well explained i=
n
> the manual...
> >
> > Intended or not, shorthands are being used this way by packages authors=
.
> For example, see cond-let and
> > llama.
>
> So maybe we should improve our documentation to explicitly recommend
> against such practices.
>
> Emacs gives Lisp programmers enough rope to hang themselves, but
> hanging themselves is probably not what they want.
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think package authors are already aware that all prefixe=
s will be replaced. It's just that there don't seem to be good alte=
rnatives for dealing with these sorts of namespace issues as all the option=
s have downsides.<br><br>I already mentioned what I wrote below but I=C2=A0=
forgot to reply all and also may not have been particularly clear anyway so=
I'll try again.<br><br>My preferred solution would be to make a specia=
l character cause the whole symbol to be matched instead of just the prefix=
. # is already not readable at the start of a symbol so it seems like that =
wouldn't cause conflicts. For example:<br><br>;; read-symbol-shorthands=
: (<br>;; ("mvlp-" . "my-very-long-prefix-")<br>;; (&qu=
ot;#db" . "cl-destructuring-bind"))<br><br>The idea is that =
"db" is only replaced when it matches the entire symbol due to th=
e #. "mvlp-" on the other hand is replaced whenever it occurs as =
the prefix of a symbol.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_cont=
ainer"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 12:25=
=E2=80=AFPM Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN<=
/a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">&=
gt; From: David Rosenbaum <<a href=3D"mailto:djr7c4@HIDDEN" target=3D=
"_blank">djr7c4@HIDDEN</a>><br>
> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2025 10:04:21 -0700<br>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank=
">eliz@HIDDEN</a>>, <a href=3D"mailto:79485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" target=3D"=
_blank">79485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a><br>
> <br>
> > Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbol n=
ames, so the db idea is probably not<br>
> going to work. As far as I remember, these things were well explained =
in the manual...<br>
> <br>
> Intended or not, shorthands are being used this way by packages author=
s. For example, see cond-let and<br>
> llama.<br>
<br>
So maybe we should improve our documentation to explicitly recommend<br>
against such practices.<br>
<br>
Emacs gives Lisp programmers enough rope to hang themselves, but<br>
hanging themselves is probably not what they want.<br>
</blockquote></div>
--000000000000344691063f6b3138--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 79485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2025 19:26:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 22 15:26:03 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35977 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1v0mAk-0006A5-Ml for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 22 Sep 2025 15:26:03 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58850) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1v0mAg-00069D-AN for 79485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 22 Sep 2025 15:25:59 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1v0mAY-0001v8-1o; Mon, 22 Sep 2025 15:25:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=0UerBo5UAXOE69gSlgLkJPup0mmwhEwUSzobFtjh4rw=; b=SQa9gVTjcbhH 8jOkHlP4CXjqu5I1G5Q8gASDR/OWM9KTaEHzYKrEj6g+7N4MEv07fWP7ErwuriubykcmYRj0n0wxR x8cTaU1X929OJL/k9HD1SbWxGqNblmzx4hukgclzpwaMrHMRcjIlY7v1/Jma07WAYC9xiopuTvg/R OVefU+L/09dvjYX7gXiNB1pFHNhf4RRXQ+N8c4d7LtMmERejFAfnkcHi/k1hjB8c/cPMJ03oDwhGR XHBAtec/RpNkBgjPn2r22y4Z7nISULd5yUmSFhKn35sz26X68+w0M0WwPgmi60BKbrx95asfn/MGv arGfNbZcYkUA8A4dIjqJdQ==; Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2025 22:25:07 +0300 Message-Id: <86ikhae1d8.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAAAo5=DzAu-LAD5Au0AQLVdZF09CNWPYd3MSBYOsRzqAhCKxAw@HIDDEN> (message from David Rosenbaum on Mon, 22 Sep 2025 10:04:21 -0700) Subject: Re: bug#79485: 31.0.50; Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands References: <87ikhb5pf5.fsf@localhost> <86y0q7dm5s.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm52_RCtJr35crpALXKGHsaqLWQ9a6JT0yxZTEV+PqH2puw@HIDDEN> <CALDnm51ez_svnZxug6G5gO96__EkZiUArHZB0k4_z7PYVoEPCQ@HIDDEN> <CAAAo5=DzAu-LAD5Au0AQLVdZF09CNWPYd3MSBYOsRzqAhCKxAw@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79485 Cc: 79485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, joaotavora@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN> > Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2025 10:04:21 -0700 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 79485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbol names, so the db idea is probably not > going to work. As far as I remember, these things were well explained in the manual... > > Intended or not, shorthands are being used this way by packages authors. For example, see cond-let and > llama. So maybe we should improve our documentation to explicitly recommend against such practices. Emacs gives Lisp programmers enough rope to hang themselves, but hanging themselves is probably not what they want.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
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Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands To: David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ad3ec6063f678785" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79485 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 79485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --000000000000ad3ec6063f678785 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 6:49=E2=80=AFPM David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN> = wrote: > > Are these packages even in Emacs? > > IMO using shorthands in this way is a natural way to abbreviate long > symbols. AFAICT, there is no other way to do so without polluting the > global namespace. I'm open to alternatives if there's another preferred w= ay > to handle this use case. defalias is an obvious option but of course that > pollutes the global namespace. > Polluting the global namespace is the name of the game in Elisp (and C). Shorthands are just lipstick on a pig. Prior to shorthands, there was namespacing etiquette, and there still us. This means you should pick a `consistent-longish-prefix-` for your consistent-longish-prefix.el library. This still holds. But it's a pain to type and read for some of us. Shorthands are just to summarize that prefix to 'clp-'. Any other use is haphazard (opens the door to shadowing etc). But what you reported is a bug, no doubt. And fairly serious. I never intended for things to work like that. Jo=C3=A3o --000000000000ad3ec6063f678785 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 6:49=E2=80=AFPM D= avid Rosenbaum <<a href=3D"mailto:djr7c4@HIDDEN">djr7c4@HIDDEN</a>= > wrote:</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquo= te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px = solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>> Are th= ese packages even in Emacs?<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">IM= O using shorthands in this way is a natural way to abbreviate long symbols.= AFAICT, there is no other way to do so without polluting the global namesp= ace. I'm open to alternatives if there's another preferred way to h= andle this use case. defalias is an obvious option but of course that pollu= tes the global namespace.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div= >Polluting the global namespace is the name of the game in Elisp (and C).= =C2=A0 Shorthands are just lipstick on a pig.=C2=A0 Prior to shorthands, th= ere was namespacing etiquette, and there still us. This means you should pi= ck a `consistent-longish-prefix-` for your consistent-longish-prefix.el lib= rary.=C2=A0 This still holds. But it's a pain to type and read for some= of us.=C2=A0Shorthands are just to summarize that prefix to 'clp-'= .=C2=A0 Any other use is haphazard (opens the door to shadowing etc).=C2=A0= =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>But what you reported is a bug, no doubt.= =C2=A0 And fairly serious.=C2=A0 I never intended for things to work like t= hat.</div><div><br></div><div>Jo=C3=A3o</div></div></div> --000000000000ad3ec6063f678785--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
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IMO using shorthands in this way is a natural way to abbreviate long symbols. AFAICT, there is no other way to do so without polluting the global namespace. I'm open to alternatives if there's another preferred way to handle this use case. defalias is an obvious option but of course that pollutes the global namespace. > I see the problem and have reproduced it. It's a bug. And I don't understand it. Yeah. It's a strange one. On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 10:28 AM Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>= wrote: > On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 6:04=E2=80=AFPM David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN= > wrote: > > > > > Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbol names= , > so the db idea is probably not going to work. As far as I remember, these > things were well explained in the manual... > > > > Intended or not, shorthands are being used this way by packages authors= . > For example, see cond-let and llama. > > > Are these packages even in Emacs? > > > > By the way, I understand the problem easily now. The symbol 'dbus' ha= s > the prefix 'db' and when the example file is read 'dbus' becomes > 'cl-destructuring-bindus'. This happens at read-time well before evaluati= on > or byte-compilation. > > > > (require 'dbus) isn't in the example file though. It's in tramp-gvfs > which was precompiled when emacs was built. It is tramp-gvfs that is > required from the example file. > > I see the problem and have reproduced it. It's a bug. And I don't > understand it. The `tramp-gvfs` file should have been read long before t= he > shorthand was established in in the example file. > --000000000000488838063f676f64 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div>> Are these packages even in Emacs?<div dir=3D"au= to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">IMO using shorthands in this way is a natur= al way to abbreviate long symbols. AFAICT, there is no other way to do so w= ithout polluting the global namespace. I'm open to alternatives if ther= e's another preferred way to handle this use case. defalias is an obvio= us option but of course that pollutes the global namespace.</div><div dir= =3D"auto"><br></div>> I see the problem and have reproduced it. It'= s a bug. And I don't understand it.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><= div dir=3D"auto">Yeah. It's a strange one.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><= div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"lt= r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 10:28 AM Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vor= a <<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>> = wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e= x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Sep= 22, 2025 at 6:04=E2=80=AFPM David Rosenbaum <<a href=3D"mailto:djr7c4@g= mail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">djr7c4@HIDDEN</a>> wro= te:<br>><br>> > Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, no= t full symbol names, so the db idea is probably not going to work. As far a= s I remember, these things were well explained in the manual...<br>><br>= > Intended or not, shorthands are being used this way by packages author= s. For example, see cond-let and llama.<br><br><br>Are these packages even = in Emacs?<br><br>> > By the way, I understand the problem easily now.= The symbol 'dbus' has the prefix 'db' and when the example= file is read 'dbus' becomes 'cl-destructuring-bindus'. Thi= s happens at read-time well before evaluation or byte-compilation.<br>><= br><div>> (require 'dbus) isn't in the example file though. It&#= 39;s in tramp-gvfs which was precompiled when emacs was built. It is tramp-= gvfs that is required from the example file.</div><div><br></div><div>I see= the problem and have reproduced it.=C2=A0 It's a bug.=C2=A0 And I don&= #39;t understand it.=C2=A0 The `tramp-gvfs` file should have been read long= before the shorthand was established in in the example file.</div></div> </blockquote></div></div></div> --000000000000488838063f676f64--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
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Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands To: David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007a8bc7063f6726af" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 79485 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 79485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000007a8bc7063f6726af Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 6:04=E2=80=AFPM David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN> = wrote: > > > Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbol names, so the db idea is probably not going to work. As far as I remember, these things were well explained in the manual... > > Intended or not, shorthands are being used this way by packages authors. For example, see cond-let and llama. Are these packages even in Emacs? > > By the way, I understand the problem easily now. The symbol 'dbus' has the prefix 'db' and when the example file is read 'dbus' becomes 'cl-destructuring-bindus'. This happens at read-time well before evaluation or byte-compilation. > > (require 'dbus) isn't in the example file though. It's in tramp-gvfs which was precompiled when emacs was built. It is tramp-gvfs that is required from the example file. I see the problem and have reproduced it. It's a bug. And I don't understand it. The `tramp-gvfs` file should have been read long before the shorthand was established in in the example file. --0000000000007a8bc7063f6726af Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Sep 22, 2025 at 6:04=E2=80=AFPM David Rosenbaum &l= t;<a href=3D"mailto:djr7c4@HIDDEN">djr7c4@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br>&g= t;<br>> > Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full sy= mbol names, so the db idea is probably not going to work. As far as I remem= ber, these things were well explained in the manual...<br>><br>> Inte= nded or not, shorthands are being used this way by packages authors. For ex= ample, see cond-let and llama.<br><br><br>Are these packages even in Emacs?= <br><br>> > By the way, I understand the problem easily now. The symb= ol 'dbus' has the prefix 'db' and when the example file is = read 'dbus' becomes 'cl-destructuring-bindus'. This happens= at read-time well before evaluation or byte-compilation.<br>><br><div>&= gt; (require 'dbus) isn't in the example file though. It's in t= ramp-gvfs which was precompiled when emacs was built. It is tramp-gvfs that= is required from the example file.</div><div><br></div><div>I see the prob= lem and have reproduced it.=C2=A0 It's a bug.=C2=A0 And I don't und= erstand it.=C2=A0 The `tramp-gvfs` file should have been read long before t= he shorthand was established in in the example file.</div></div> --0000000000007a8bc7063f6726af--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
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From: David Rosenbaum <djr7c4@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2025 10:04:21 -0700
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Subject: Re: bug#79485: 31.0.50; Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands
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> Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbol names, so
the db idea is probably not going to work. As far as I remember, these
things were well explained in the manual...
Intended or not, shorthands are being used this way by packages authors.
For example, see cond-let and llama.
> By the way, I understand the problem easily now. The symbol 'dbus' has
the prefix 'db' and when the example file is read 'dbus' becomes
'cl-destructuring-bindus'. This happens at read-time well before evaluation
or byte-compilation.
(require 'dbus) isn't in the example file though. It's in tramp-gvfs which
was precompiled when emacs was built. It is tramp-gvfs that is required
from the example file.
On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 4:00 AM Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> =
wrote:
> By the way, I understand the problem easily now. The symbol 'dbus' has th=
e
> prefix 'db' and when the example file is read 'dbus' becomes
> 'cl-destructuring-bindus'. This happens at read-time well before evaluati=
on
> or byte-compilation.
>
> It happens to occur inside a 'load' or 'require' form (didn't check), but
> it's completely unrelated to that operation specifically. The file intend=
ed
> to be loaded is completely isolated. This is just a misunderstanding of
> what shorthands were designed for and how they work. If anything is missi=
ng
> in the manual, feel free to add.
>
> Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora
>
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 11:52 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> =
wrote:
>
>> Here's the reply I meant to send to the tracker but sent to Eli only on
>> accident:
>>
>> Shorthands are read at file read-time and specified exclusively as
>> per-file variables. So I don't understand this about inheritance from lo=
ad.
>> Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbol names, s=
o
>> the db idea is probably not going to work. As far as I remember, these
>> things were well explained in the manual...
>>
>> Jo=C3=A3o
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 07:41 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>>> > From: "David J. Rosenbaum" <djr7c4@HIDDEN>
>>> > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2025 16:58:06 -0700
>>> >
>>> > Hello,
>>> >
>>> > I am using read-symbol-shorthands to alias db to
>>> > cl-destructuring-bind. It works but causes problems when I load a fil=
e
>>> > containing a symbol that starts with db. For example, one can use
>>> emacs -Q
>>> > with the following file.
>>> >
>>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>> > (require 'tramp-gvfs)
>>> >
>>> > ;; Local Variables:
>>> > ;; read-symbol-shorthands: (("db" . "cl-destructuring-bind"))
>>> > ;; End:
>>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>> >
>>> > To reproduce, save the above and load it with M-x load-file. This
>>> > results in the following error.
>>> >
>>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>> > Loading /home/david/tmp/read-symbol-example.el (source)...
>>> > byte-code: Cannot open load file: No such file or directory,
>>> cl-destructuring-bindus
>>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>> >
>>> > The problem seems to be that tramp-gvfs requires dbus and db is being
>>> > replaced with cl-destructuring-bind. IMO, loaded files should not
>>> inherit
>>> > shorthands from files that require them since those shorthands are on=
ly
>>> > valid for that particular file.
>>>
>>> Thanks, I hope Jo=C3=A3o (CC'ed) will have some ideas or suggestions.
>>>
>>
--000000000000536197063f66d0ff
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"auto">> Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not =
full symbol names, so the db idea is probably not going to work. As far as =
I remember, these things were well explained in the manual...<div dir=3D"au=
to"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Intended or not, shorthands are being used =
this way by packages authors. For example, see cond-let and llama.</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">> By the way, I understand th=
e problem easily now. The symbol 'dbus' has the prefix 'db'=
and when the example file is read 'dbus' becomes 'cl-destructu=
ring-bindus'. This happens at read-time well before evaluation or byte-=
compilation.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">(require &#=
39;dbus) isn't in the example file though. It's in tramp-gvfs which=
was precompiled when emacs was built. It is tramp-gvfs that is required fr=
om the example file.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_c=
ontainer"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 4:00 =
AM Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN">joaota=
vora@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"auto"><div>By the way, I understand the problem easily now. The symb=
ol 'dbus' has the prefix 'db' and when the example file is =
read 'dbus' becomes 'cl-destructuring-bindus'. This happens=
at read-time well before evaluation or byte-compilation.</div><div dir=3D"=
auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It happens to occur inside a 'load=
9; or 'require' form (didn't check), but it's completely un=
related to that operation specifically. The file intended to be loaded is c=
ompletely isolated. This is just a misunderstanding of what shorthands were=
designed for and how they work. If anything is missing in the manual, feel=
free to add.</div><div><br></div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">J=
o=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"=
ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 11:52 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora=
<<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noref=
errer">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Here's the reply I me=
ant to send to the tracker but sent to Eli only on accident:=C2=A0</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Shorthands are read at file read=
-time and specified exclusively as per-file variables. So I don't under=
stand this about inheritance from load. Also they were designed to abbrevia=
te prefixes, not full symbol names, so the db idea is probably not going to=
work. As far as I remember, these things were well explained in the manual=
...</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jo=C3=A3o</div></div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mo=
n, Sep 22, 2025, 07:41 Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" re=
l=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">> From: "=
David J. Rosenbaum" <<a href=3D"mailto:djr7c4@HIDDEN" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">djr7c4@HIDDEN</a>><b=
r>
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2025 16:58:06 -0700<br>
> <br>
> Hello,<br>
> <br>
> I am using read-symbol-shorthands to alias db to<br>
> cl-destructuring-bind. It works but causes problems when I load a file=
<br>
> containing a symbol that starts with db. For example, one can use emac=
s -Q<br>
> with the following file.<br>
> <br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> (require 'tramp-gvfs)<br>
> <br>
> ;; Local Variables:<br>
> ;; read-symbol-shorthands: (("db" . "cl-destructuring-b=
ind"))<br>
> ;; End:<br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> <br>
> To reproduce, save the above and load it with M-x load-file. This<br>
> results in the following error.<br>
> <br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> Loading /home/david/tmp/read-symbol-example.el (source)...<br>
> byte-code: Cannot open load file: No such file or directory, cl-destru=
cturing-bindus<br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> <br>
> The problem seems to be that tramp-gvfs requires dbus and db is being<=
br>
> replaced with cl-destructuring-bind. IMO, loaded files should not inhe=
rit<br>
> shorthands from files that require them since those shorthands are onl=
y<br>
> valid for that particular file.<br>
<br>
Thanks, I hope Jo=C3=A3o (CC'ed) will have some ideas or suggestions.<b=
r>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2025 11:59:55 +0100
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Subject: Re: bug#79485: 31.0.50; Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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By the way, I understand the problem easily now. The symbol 'dbus' has the
prefix 'db' and when the example file is read 'dbus' becomes
'cl-destructuring-bindus'. This happens at read-time well before evaluation
or byte-compilation.
It happens to occur inside a 'load' or 'require' form (didn't check), but
it's completely unrelated to that operation specifically. The file intended
to be loaded is completely isolated. This is just a misunderstanding of
what shorthands were designed for and how they work. If anything is missing
in the manual, feel free to add.
Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora
On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 11:52 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
> Here's the reply I meant to send to the tracker but sent to Eli only on
> accident:
>
> Shorthands are read at file read-time and specified exclusively as
> per-file variables. So I don't understand this about inheritance from loa=
d.
> Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbol names, so
> the db idea is probably not going to work. As far as I remember, these
> things were well explained in the manual...
>
> Jo=C3=A3o
>
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 07:41 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>> > From: "David J. Rosenbaum" <djr7c4@HIDDEN>
>> > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2025 16:58:06 -0700
>> >
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I am using read-symbol-shorthands to alias db to
>> > cl-destructuring-bind. It works but causes problems when I load a file
>> > containing a symbol that starts with db. For example, one can use emac=
s
>> -Q
>> > with the following file.
>> >
>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> > (require 'tramp-gvfs)
>> >
>> > ;; Local Variables:
>> > ;; read-symbol-shorthands: (("db" . "cl-destructuring-bind"))
>> > ;; End:
>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> >
>> > To reproduce, save the above and load it with M-x load-file. This
>> > results in the following error.
>> >
>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> > Loading /home/david/tmp/read-symbol-example.el (source)...
>> > byte-code: Cannot open load file: No such file or directory,
>> cl-destructuring-bindus
>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> >
>> > The problem seems to be that tramp-gvfs requires dbus and db is being
>> > replaced with cl-destructuring-bind. IMO, loaded files should not
>> inherit
>> > shorthands from files that require them since those shorthands are onl=
y
>> > valid for that particular file.
>>
>> Thanks, I hope Jo=C3=A3o (CC'ed) will have some ideas or suggestions.
>>
>
--000000000000e020fb063f61b826
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>By the way, I understand the problem easily now. The=
symbol 'dbus' has the prefix 'db' and when the example fil=
e is read 'dbus' becomes 'cl-destructuring-bindus'. This ha=
ppens at read-time well before evaluation or byte-compilation.</div><div di=
r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">It happens to occur inside a 'lo=
ad' or 'require' form (didn't check), but it's complete=
ly unrelated to that operation specifically. The file intended to be loaded=
is completely isolated. This is just a misunderstanding of what shorthands=
were designed for and how they work. If anything is missing in the manual,=
feel free to add.</div><div><br></div><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signatu=
re">Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_qu=
ote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, =
11:52 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN">joa=
otavora@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Here's the reply I meant to sen=
d to the tracker but sent to Eli only on accident:=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Shorthands are read at file read-time and =
specified exclusively as per-file variables. So I don't understand this=
about inheritance from load. Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixe=
s, not full symbol names, so the db idea is probably not going to work. As =
far as I remember, these things were well explained in the manual...</div><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jo=C3=A3o</div></div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 22,=
2025, 07:41 Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_b=
lank" rel=3D"noreferrer">eliz@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">> From: "David J. Rosenbaum&qu=
ot; <<a href=3D"mailto:djr7c4@HIDDEN" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">djr7c4@HIDDEN</a>><br>
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2025 16:58:06 -0700<br>
> <br>
> Hello,<br>
> <br>
> I am using read-symbol-shorthands to alias db to<br>
> cl-destructuring-bind. It works but causes problems when I load a file=
<br>
> containing a symbol that starts with db. For example, one can use emac=
s -Q<br>
> with the following file.<br>
> <br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> (require 'tramp-gvfs)<br>
> <br>
> ;; Local Variables:<br>
> ;; read-symbol-shorthands: (("db" . "cl-destructuring-b=
ind"))<br>
> ;; End:<br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> <br>
> To reproduce, save the above and load it with M-x load-file. This<br>
> results in the following error.<br>
> <br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> Loading /home/david/tmp/read-symbol-example.el (source)...<br>
> byte-code: Cannot open load file: No such file or directory, cl-destru=
cturing-bindus<br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> <br>
> The problem seems to be that tramp-gvfs requires dbus and db is being<=
br>
> replaced with cl-destructuring-bind. IMO, loaded files should not inhe=
rit<br>
> shorthands from files that require them since those shorthands are onl=
y<br>
> valid for that particular file.<br>
<br>
Thanks, I hope Jo=C3=A3o (CC'ed) will have some ideas or suggestions.<b=
r>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
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Subject: Re: bug#79485: 31.0.50; Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Here's the reply I meant to send to the tracker but sent to Eli only on
accident:
Shorthands are read at file read-time and specified exclusively as per-file
variables. So I don't understand this about inheritance from load. Also
they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbol names, so the db
idea is probably not going to work. As far as I remember, these things were
well explained in the manual...
Jo=C3=A3o
On Mon, Sep 22, 2025, 07:41 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > From: "David J. Rosenbaum" <djr7c4@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2025 16:58:06 -0700
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am using read-symbol-shorthands to alias db to
> > cl-destructuring-bind. It works but causes problems when I load a file
> > containing a symbol that starts with db. For example, one can use emacs
> -Q
> > with the following file.
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > (require 'tramp-gvfs)
> >
> > ;; Local Variables:
> > ;; read-symbol-shorthands: (("db" . "cl-destructuring-bind"))
> > ;; End:
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > To reproduce, save the above and load it with M-x load-file. This
> > results in the following error.
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Loading /home/david/tmp/read-symbol-example.el (source)...
> > byte-code: Cannot open load file: No such file or directory,
> cl-destructuring-bindus
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > The problem seems to be that tramp-gvfs requires dbus and db is being
> > replaced with cl-destructuring-bind. IMO, loaded files should not inher=
it
> > shorthands from files that require them since those shorthands are only
> > valid for that particular file.
>
> Thanks, I hope Jo=C3=A3o (CC'ed) will have some ideas or suggestions.
>
--0000000000009eee6c063f619ee4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Here's the reply I meant to send to the tracker =
but sent to Eli only on accident:=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">Shorthands are read at file read-time and specified exclusi=
vely as per-file variables. So I don't understand this about inheritanc=
e from load. Also they were designed to abbreviate prefixes, not full symbo=
l names, so the db idea is probably not going to work. As far as I remember=
, these things were well explained in the manual...</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jo=C3=A3o</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Se=
p 22, 2025, 07:41 Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@gn=
u.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">> From: "David J. Rosenbaum" <<a href=3D"mailto:djr7c4=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">djr7c4@HIDDEN</a>><b=
r>
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2025 16:58:06 -0700<br>
> <br>
> Hello,<br>
> <br>
> I am using read-symbol-shorthands to alias db to<br>
> cl-destructuring-bind. It works but causes problems when I load a file=
<br>
> containing a symbol that starts with db. For example, one can use emac=
s -Q<br>
> with the following file.<br>
> <br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> (require 'tramp-gvfs)<br>
> <br>
> ;; Local Variables:<br>
> ;; read-symbol-shorthands: (("db" . "cl-destructuring-b=
ind"))<br>
> ;; End:<br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> <br>
> To reproduce, save the above and load it with M-x load-file. This<br>
> results in the following error.<br>
> <br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> Loading /home/david/tmp/read-symbol-example.el (source)...<br>
> byte-code: Cannot open load file: No such file or directory, cl-destru=
cturing-bindus<br>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
> <br>
> The problem seems to be that tramp-gvfs requires dbus and db is being<=
br>
> replaced with cl-destructuring-bind. IMO, loaded files should not inhe=
rit<br>
> shorthands from files that require them since those shorthands are onl=
y<br>
> valid for that particular file.<br>
<br>
Thanks, I hope Jo=C3=A3o (CC'ed) will have some ideas or suggestions.<b=
r>
</blockquote></div>
--0000000000009eee6c063f619ee4--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2025 09:41:19 +0300
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: "David J. Rosenbaum" <djr7c4@HIDDEN>,
=?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87ikhb5pf5.fsf@localhost> (djr7c4@HIDDEN)
Subject: Re: bug#79485: 31.0.50; Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands
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> From: "David J. Rosenbaum" <djr7c4@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2025 16:58:06 -0700
>
> Hello,
>
> I am using read-symbol-shorthands to alias db to
> cl-destructuring-bind. It works but causes problems when I load a file
> containing a symbol that starts with db. For example, one can use emacs -Q
> with the following file.
>
> ================================================================
> (require 'tramp-gvfs)
>
> ;; Local Variables:
> ;; read-symbol-shorthands: (("db" . "cl-destructuring-bind"))
> ;; End:
> ================================================================
>
> To reproduce, save the above and load it with M-x load-file. This
> results in the following error.
>
> ================================================================
> Loading /home/david/tmp/read-symbol-example.el (source)...
> byte-code: Cannot open load file: No such file or directory, cl-destructuring-bindus
> ================================================================
>
> The problem seems to be that tramp-gvfs requires dbus and db is being
> replaced with cl-destructuring-bind. IMO, loaded files should not inherit
> shorthands from files that require them since those shorthands are only
> valid for that particular file.
Thanks, I hope João (CC'ed) will have some ideas or suggestions.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
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Subject: 31.0.50; Loaded files inherit read-symbol-shorthands
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Content preview: Hello,
I am using read-symbol-shorthands to alias db to cl-destructuring-bind.
It works but causes problems when I load a file containing a symbol that
starts with db. For example, one can use emacs -Q with [...]
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Hello,
I am using read-symbol-shorthands to alias db to
cl-destructuring-bind. It works but causes problems when I load a file
containing a symbol that starts with db. For example, one can use emacs -Q
with the following file.
================================================================
(require 'tramp-gvfs)
;; Local Variables:
;; read-symbol-shorthands: (("db" . "cl-destructuring-bind"))
;; End:
================================================================
To reproduce, save the above and load it with M-x load-file. This
results in the following error.
================================================================
Loading /home/david/tmp/read-symbol-example.el (source)...
byte-code: Cannot open load file: No such file or directory, cl-destructuring-bindus
================================================================
The problem seems to be that tramp-gvfs requires dbus and db is being
replaced with cl-destructuring-bind. IMO, loaded files should not inherit
shorthands from files that require them since those shorthands are only
valid for that particular file.
In GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
3.24.49, cairo version 1.18.4)
Repository revision: 27853a2bca63b339bb2264d6c92c7c5ddcd51a75
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101018
System Description: Arch Linux
Configured using:
'configure --prefix=/home/david/Code/executables/emacs-dev
--with-x-toolkit=gtk3 --sysconfdir=/etc --prefix=/usr
--libexecdir=/usr/lib --localstatedir=/var --disable-build-details
--with-cairo --with-harfbuzz --with-libsystemd --with-modules
--with-native-compilation=aot --with-tree-sitter'
Configured features:
ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG
LCMS2 LIBOTF LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY
INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP X11 XDBE XIM XINERAMA XINPUT2 XPM
XRANDR GTK3 ZLIB
Important settings:
value of $LC_ALL: en_US.UTF-8
value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
Major mode: Elisp/d
Minor modes in effect:
tooltip-mode: t
global-eldoc-mode: t
eldoc-mode: t
show-paren-mode: t
electric-indent-mode: t
mouse-wheel-mode: t
tool-bar-mode: t
menu-bar-mode: t
file-name-shadow-mode: t
global-font-lock-mode: t
font-lock-mode: t
blink-cursor-mode: t
minibuffer-regexp-mode: t
line-number-mode: t
indent-tabs-mode: t
transient-mark-mode: t
auto-composition-mode: t
auto-encryption-mode: t
auto-compression-mode: t
Load-path shadows:
None found.
Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug lisp-mnt message mailcap yank-media puny
dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg rfc6068
epg-config gnus-util text-property-search mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode
mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047
rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils tramp-cache time-stamp
tramp trampver tramp-integration files-x tramp-message help-mode
tramp-compat xdg shell pcomplete comint ansi-osc ring parse-time iso8601
time-date format-spec auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs
password-cache json subr-x map byte-opt gv ansi-color tramp-loaddefs
comp-run bytecomp byte-compile comp-common rx warnings icons cl-loaddefs
cl-lib rmc iso-transl tooltip cconv eldoc paren electric uniquify
ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel term/x-win x-win
term/common-win x-dnd touch-screen tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt
fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode
register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select
scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors
frame minibuffer nadvice seq simple cl-generic indonesian philippine
cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao
korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript
charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help abbrev obarray oclosure
cl-preloaded button loaddefs theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp
files window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env
code-pages mule custom widget keymap hashtable-print-readable backquote
threads dbusbind inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting cairo gtk x-toolkit xinput2 x multi-tty move-toolbar
make-network-process tty-child-frames native-compile emacs)
Memory information:
((conses 16 99174 15419) (symbols 48 9150 0) (strings 32 27260 2500)
(string-bytes 1 981001) (vectors 16 15863)
(vector-slots 8 203447 10697) (floats 8 30 52) (intervals 56 331 0)
(buffers 1064 13))
"David J. Rosenbaum" <djr7c4@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#79485; Package emacs.
Full text available.
GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd,
1994-97 Ian Jackson.