GNU bug report logs - #79518
30.2; Enabled-by-default minor modes are not described by describe-mode

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 30.2; Enabled-by-default minor modes are not described by
 describe-mode
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 14:02:57 +1200

I noticed this with `windmove-mode' which is defined with:

 (define-minor-mode windmove-mode
   "Global minor mode for default windmove commands."
   :keymap windmove-mode-map
   :init-value t
   :global t)

When using "C-h m" the *Help* buffer makes no mention of it.

If I toggle that mode off and then back on, and try "C-h m" again,
then the mode is listed.

I can trivially reproduce this with new modes with ":init-value t":

 (define-minor-mode my-local-mode "local" :init-value t)
 (define-minor-mode my-global-mode "global" :global t :init-value t)

(If testing, it helps to use "C-c @ C-q" to collapse the *Help*
buffer to just the headings.)


-Phil




In GNU Emacs 30.2 (build 2, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, cairo
 version 1.16.0, Xaw scroll bars) of 2025-09-02 built on phil-lp
Repository revision: 636f166cfc86aa90d63f592fd99f3fdd9ef95ebd
Repository branch: HEAD
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 
11.0.12101004
System Description: Ubuntu 22.04.5 LTS

Configured using:
 'configure --prefix=/home/phil/emacs/30.x.nc/usr/local
 --with-native-compilation=aot --with-x-toolkit=lucid --without-sound
 '--program-transform-name=s/^ctags$/ctags_emacs/''

Configured features:
CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG
LCMS2 LIBSELINUX LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG
RSVG SECCOMP SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP
X11 XDBE XIM XPM LUCID ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LC_MONETARY: en_NZ.UTF-8
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: en_NZ.UTF-8
  value of $LC_TIME: en_NZ.UTF-8
  value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: ELisp/l

Minor modes in effect:
  savehist-mode: t
  windmove-mode: t
  winner-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  minibuffer-regexp-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  indent-tabs-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug cus-start cus-load shortdoc misearch
multi-isearch diary-lib diary-loaddefs help-fns radix-tree mule-util
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kinsoku url-file svg dom gnus-group gnus-undo gnus-start gnus-dbus dbus
compile comp-run comp-common xml gnus-cloud nnimap nnmail browse-url url
url-proxy url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie
generate-lisp-file url-domsuf url-util url-parse auth-source cl-seq
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url-vars mail-source utf7 nnoo parse-time gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range
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text-property-search mail-utils range mm-util mail-prsvr wid-edit
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org-list org-footnote org-faces org-entities time-date subr-x noutline
outline icons ob-emacs-lisp ob-core ob-eval org-cycle org-table ol rx
org-fold org-fold-core org-keys oc org-loaddefs thingatpt find-func
cal-menu calendar cal-loaddefs org-version org-compat org-macs
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dired dired-loaddefs advice rmc iso-transl tooltip cconv eldoc paren
electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel
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theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties
overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget keymap
hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind inotify lcms2
dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting cairo x-toolkit
x multi-tty move-toolbar make-network-process native-compile emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 352962 50390) (symbols 48 23621 0) (strings 32 84991 2057)
 (string-bytes 1 3217165) (vectors 16 38605)
 (vector-slots 8 498693 30384) (floats 8 396 105)
 (intervals 56 1458 0) (buffers 992 20))

Message #10 received at 79518-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
Cc: 79518-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#79518: 30.2;
 Enabled-by-default minor modes are not described by describe-mode
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 14:57:06 +0300

> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2025 14:02:57 +1200
> From: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
> 
> I noticed this with `windmove-mode' which is defined with:
> 
>   (define-minor-mode windmove-mode
>     "Global minor mode for default windmove commands."
>     :keymap windmove-mode-map
>     :init-value t
>     :global t)
> 
> When using "C-h m" the *Help* buffer makes no mention of it.
> 
> If I toggle that mode off and then back on, and try "C-h m" again,
> then the mode is listed.

Thanks, fixed on the master branch, and closing the bug.

Message #13 received at 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
Cc: 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#79518: 30.2; Enabled-by-default minor modes are not
 described by describe-mode
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2025 19:31:25 -0400

>> I noticed this with `windmove-mode' which is defined with:
>>
>>  (define-minor-mode windmove-mode
>>    "Global minor mode for default windmove commands."
>>    :keymap windmove-mode-map
>>    :init-value t
>>    :global t)
>>
>> When using "C-h m" the *Help* buffer makes no mention of it.

That's because the package is not even loaded.

>> If I toggle that mode off and then back on, and try "C-h m" again,
>> then the mode is listed.

You can also just `M-x load-library RET` after which `C-h m` should show
you that same info.

> Thanks, fixed on the master branch, and closing the bug.

This fix causes `windmove.el` to be loaded unconditionally every time
Emacs is launched, I don't think that was the intention: if we want
that, then we should preload this file.


        Stefan

Message #16 received at 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: psainty <at> orcon.net.nz, 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#79518: 30.2;
 Enabled-by-default minor modes are not described by describe-mode
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2025 08:21:59 +0300

> Cc: 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2025 19:31:25 -0400
> From:  Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
> 
> >> I noticed this with `windmove-mode' which is defined with:
> >>
> >>  (define-minor-mode windmove-mode
> >>    "Global minor mode for default windmove commands."
> >>    :keymap windmove-mode-map
> >>    :init-value t
> >>    :global t)
> >>
> >> When using "C-h m" the *Help* buffer makes no mention of it.
> 
> That's because the package is not even loaded.
> 
> >> If I toggle that mode off and then back on, and try "C-h m" again,
> >> then the mode is listed.
> 
> You can also just `M-x load-library RET` after which `C-h m` should show
> you that same info.
> 
> > Thanks, fixed on the master branch, and closing the bug.
> 
> This fix causes `windmove.el` to be loaded unconditionally every time
> Emacs is launched, I don't think that was the intention: if we want
> that, then we should preload this file.

Thanks, I've reverted that commit.

Message #19 received at 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#79518: 30.2; Enabled-by-default minor modes are not
 described by describe-mode
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2025 19:58:18 +1300

On 2025-09-28 12:31, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> I noticed this with `windmove-mode' which is defined with:
>>> When using "C-h m" the *Help* buffer makes no mention of it.
> 
> That's because the package is not even loaded.

True; I can see in lisp/ldefs-boot.el:

 (defvar windmove-mode t "DOCSTRING")
 (custom-autoload 'windmove-mode "windmove" nil)
 (autoload 'windmove-mode "windmove" "DOCSTRING" t)
 (autoload 'windmove-default-keybindings "windmove" "DOCSTRING" t)
 ...

So if I run "emacs -Q" then `windmove-mode' is t, but the library
hasn't been loaded.

However, if I then call (windmove-default-keybindings) then the
library IS loaded, and the mode is having an effect, but the bug
remains: There is no mention of `windmove-mode' in the `describe-mode'
*Help* buffer.  Not unless you toggle the mode off and back on.


>>> If I toggle that mode off and then back on, and try "C-h m" again,
>>> then the mode is listed.
> 
> You can also just `M-x load-library RET` after which `C-h m` should
> show you that same info.

This is not the case (which aligns with the autoloading not having
that effect when calling (windmove-default-keybindings).


Furthermore, this does not seem particular to `windmove-mode' but
rather a general issue with ":init t" for minor modes.  As mentioned
in the initial report, I can replicate the same problem like so:

 (define-minor-mode my-local-mode "local" :init-value t)
 (define-minor-mode my-global-mode "global" :global t :init-value t)

Evaluating those forms causes both modes to be enabled, but with
neither of them described by `describe-mode' (unless I toggle them
off and back on -- or just forcibly re-enable them -- after which
they appear).


-Phil

Message #22 received at 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#79518: 30.2; Enabled-by-default minor modes are not
 described by describe-mode
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2025 20:01:10 +1300

On 2025-09-28 19:58, Phil Sainty wrote:
> rather a general issue with ":init t" for minor modes.

By which I meant ":init-value t" of course.

Message #25 received at 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
Cc: 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#79518: 30.2; Enabled-by-default minor modes are not
 described by describe-mode
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 17:45:27 -0400

> However, if I then call (windmove-default-keybindings) then the
> library IS loaded, and the mode is having an effect, but the bug
> remains: There is no mention of `windmove-mode' in the `describe-mode'
> *Help* buffer.  Not unless you toggle the mode off and back on.

Hmm... indeed, I was confused about the way `global-minor-modes` works.

Maybe a patch like:

    diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el
    index 3f8c9f49a93..844af3ad18f 100644
    --- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el
    +++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el
    @@ -320,12 +320,16 @@
     Setting this variable directly does not take effect;
     either customize it (see the info node `Easy Customization')
     or call the function `%s'."))))
    -	    `(defcustom ,mode ,init-value
    +	    `(progn
    +	       (defcustom ,mode ,init-value
     	       ,(format base-doc-string pretty-name mode mode)
     	       ,@set
     	       ,@initialize
     	       ,@type
    -               ,@(nreverse extra-keywords)))))
    +	        ,@(nreverse extra-keywords))
    +	       (when init-value
    +	         (if ,getter
    +                     (add-to-list 'global-minor-modes ',modefun)))))))
     
            ;; The actual function.
            ,(funcall

is in order?


        Stefan ":init-value is evil"

Message #28 received at 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
Cc: 79518 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#79518: 30.2; Enabled-by-default minor modes are not
 described by describe-mode
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 17:56:41 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>> However, if I then call (windmove-default-keybindings) then the
>> library IS loaded, and the mode is having an effect, but the bug
>> remains: There is no mention of `windmove-mode' in the `describe-mode'
>> *Help* buffer.  Not unless you toggle the mode off and back on.
>
> Hmm... indeed, I was confused about the way `global-minor-modes` works.
>
> Maybe a patch like:
>
>     diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el
>     index 3f8c9f49a93..844af3ad18f 100644
>     --- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el
>     +++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el
>     @@ -320,12 +320,16 @@
>      Setting this variable directly does not take effect;
>      either customize it (see the info node `Easy Customization')
>      or call the function `%s'."))))
>     -	    `(defcustom ,mode ,init-value
>     +	    `(progn
>     +	       (defcustom ,mode ,init-value
>      	       ,(format base-doc-string pretty-name mode mode)
>      	       ,@set
>      	       ,@initialize
>      	       ,@type
>     -               ,@(nreverse extra-keywords)))))
>     +	        ,@(nreverse extra-keywords))
>     +	       (when init-value
>     +	         (if ,getter
>     +                     (add-to-list 'global-minor-modes ',modefun)))))))
>      
>             ;; The actual function.
>             ,(funcall
>
> is in order?

Even after fixing the obvious errors, the problem is that
`lisp/loaddefs.el` is loaded before `simple.el` so when the above code
tries to add `windmove-mode` to `global-minor-modes`,
`global-minor-modes` doesn't exist yet.  🙁

So I suggest the patch below.


        Stefan

[minor-modes.patch (text/x-diff, inline)]

diff --git a/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el b/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el
index a3ab5f18690..d883c4bb680 100644
--- a/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el
+++ b/lisp/emacs-lisp/easy-mmode.el
@@ -332,12 +332,16 @@ define-minor-mode
 Setting this variable directly does not take effect;
 either customize it (see the info node `Easy Customization')
 or call the function `%s'."))))
-	    `(defcustom ,mode ,init-value
-	       ,(format base-doc-string pretty-name mode mode)
-	       ,@set
-	       ,@initialize
-	       ,@type
-               ,@(nreverse extra-keywords)))))
+	    `(progn
+	       (defcustom ,mode ,init-value
+	         ,(format base-doc-string pretty-name mode mode)
+	         ,@set
+	         ,@initialize
+	         ,@type
+	         ,@(nreverse extra-keywords))
+	       ,(when init-value
+	          `(when ,getter
+                     (add-to-list 'global-minor-modes ',modefun)))))))
 
        ;; The actual function.
        ,(funcall
@@ -360,30 +364,21 @@ define-minor-mode
                            'toggle)))))
 	    (let ((,last-message (current-message)))
               (,@setter
-               (cond ((eq arg 'toggle)
-                      (not ,getter))
-                     ((and (numberp arg)
-                           (< arg 1))
-                      nil)
-                     (t
-                      t)))
+               (cond ((eq arg 'toggle) (not ,getter))
+                     (t (not (and (numberp arg) (< arg 1))))))
               ;; Keep minor modes list up to date.
-              ,@(if globalp
-                    ;; When running this byte-compiled code in earlier
-                    ;; Emacs versions, these variables may not be defined
-                    ;; there.  So check defensively, even if they're
-                    ;; always defined in Emacs 28 and up.
-                    `((when (boundp 'global-minor-modes)
-                        (setq global-minor-modes
-                              (delq ',modefun global-minor-modes))
-                        (when ,getter
-                          (push ',modefun global-minor-modes))))
-                  ;; Ditto check.
-                  `((when (boundp 'local-minor-modes)
-                      (setq local-minor-modes
-                            (delq ',modefun local-minor-modes))
-                      (when ,getter
-                        (push ',modefun local-minor-modes)))))
+              ,(let ((minor-modes-var (if globalp
+                                          'global-minor-modes
+                                        'local-minor-modes)))
+                 ;; When running this byte-compiled code in earlier
+                 ;; Emacs versions, these variables may not be defined
+                 ;; there.  So check defensively, even if they're
+                 ;; always defined in Emacs 28 and up.
+                 `(when (boundp ',minor-modes-var)
+                    (if ,getter
+                        (add-to-list ',minor-modes-var ',modefun)
+                      (setq ,minor-modes-var
+                            (delq ',modefun ,minor-modes-var)))))
               ,@body
               ;; The on/off hooks are here for backward compatibility only.
               (run-hooks ',hook (if ,getter ',hook-on ',hook-off))
diff --git a/lisp/simple.el b/lisp/simple.el
index fb60ba5ca16..1092506984b 100644
--- a/lisp/simple.el
+++ b/lisp/simple.el
@@ -157,10 +157,6 @@ next-error--message-highlight-overlay
   nil
   "Overlay highlighting the current error message in the `next-error' buffer.")
 
-(defvar global-minor-modes nil
-  "A list of the currently enabled global minor modes.
-This is a list of symbols.")
-
 (defcustom next-error-hook nil
   "List of hook functions run by `next-error' after visiting source file."
   :type 'hook
diff --git a/lisp/subr.el b/lisp/subr.el
index 08c22737539..e743263b619 100644
--- a/lisp/subr.el
+++ b/lisp/subr.el
@@ -3055,6 +3055,10 @@ minor-mode-list
                                          hs-minor-mode)
   "List of all minor mode functions.")
 
+(defvar global-minor-modes nil
+  "A list of the currently enabled global minor modes.
+This is a list of symbols.")
+
 (defun add-minor-mode (toggle name &optional keymap after toggle-fun)
   "Register a new minor mode.
 

Message #31 received at 79518-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Phil Sainty <psainty <at> orcon.net.nz>
Cc: 79518-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#79518: 30.2; Enabled-by-default minor modes are not
 described by describe-mode
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 11:47:58 -0400

> So I suggest the patch below.

Pushed to `master`, closing,


        Stefan

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