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Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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From: Gerd =?UTF-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 07:09:39 +0100
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This is about unifying tty and GUI frame handling in Emacs internals, as
far as that is possible. Especially the handling of root frames on ttys
is currently very different, their notion of visibility, their handling
in do_switch_frame etc.
The following is a description of what I would do, as far as that is
clear to me, to get a discussion going.
My plan would be to simplify the handling of tty root frames so that the
visibility of a root frame on a terminal is identical to being the top
frame of a terminal. This is currently not the case. A root frame on a
terminal can be visible but not displayed because it's not the top frame
of the terminal.
I think this could be tackled in these steps:
1. Remove top_frame member and replace it with a function top_frame
which finds a terminal's top frame by searching for its one visible
root frame in the list of frames. This is a recommendation of the
department of removing redundancies department. I don't think it's
performance critical, and it removes the need to sync visibility
and top-fraen info. This is basically the gist of it.
2. do_switch_frame must not change visibility of tty frames because
that's not its business on GUIs either. (This came in in 2003 with a
multi-tty commit, for unknown reasons.)
3. do_switch_frame also sets frames garbaged, as a consequence of
changing the visibility of tty root frames. This is a thing for
redisplay. That must be done where the visiblity of root frames is
changed.
4. The whole special handling of tty frames in do_switch_frame can
thus go.
5. make-frame-visible does what's necessary for changing the
visibility of tty root frames (check there's only one visible,
garbaging frames for thorough redisplay, which is currently in
do_swith_frame, ... others?)
6. Likewise for make-frame-invisible. What are the semantics?
7. frame_redisplay_p can now be simplified and is equivalent to
frame_ancestors_visible_p on ttys.
...
Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Gerd =?UTF-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN> Subject: bug#80032: Acknowledgement (31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility) Message-ID: <handler.80032.B.17661245954357.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org> References: <m2sed7t330.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Gnu-PR-Message: ack 80032 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 80032 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 06:10:03 +0000 Thank you for filing a new bug report with debbugs.gnu.org. This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message has been received. Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please send it to 80032 <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Please do not send mail to help-debbugs@HIDDEN unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system. --=20 80032: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D80032 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@HIDDEN with problems
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Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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> My plan would be to simplify the handling of tty root frames so that the
> visibility of a root frame on a terminal is identical to being the top
> frame of a terminal. This is currently not the case. A root frame on a
> terminal can be visible but not displayed because it's not the top frame
> of the terminal.
If we say that on a tty there is always only one visible top/root frame,
'frame-visible-p' will return false for any other frame while on a GUI
such a frame may be considered visible. This will create problems for
all functions that investigate the visibility property of frames - in
particular all functions calling candidate_frame in frame.c. Then
'next-frame', 'previous-frame' or 'display-buffer-use-some-window' will
behave differently on ttys and GUIs. We could try to handle this case
specially in candidate_frame but it's certainly not trivial.
> 7. frame_redisplay_p can now be simplified and is equivalent to
> frame_ancestors_visible_p on ttys.
The frame_ancestors_visible_p thingy is mainly to make child frames
behave in a similar way on GUIs and ttys. GUIs usually suppress the
display of a child frame when one of its ancestors is invisible. On a
tty that would not hinder us to display the child frame (we might have
difficulties finding its correct position though).
I think we'd have to investigate 'raise-frame' (tty_raise_lower_frame)
and 'select-frame-set-input-focus' - a focus_frame_hook will be needed
for ttys. Only these two should be allowed to pro-actively change the
top frame (to the root frame of a child frame when the child frame
should be raised and/or get focus) and no one else should be allowed to
do that. Implicitly, the top frame will also change when the old top
frame is deleted, made invisible and (probably) lowered.
martin
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Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN> writes:
>> My plan would be to simplify the handling of tty root frames so that the
>> visibility of a root frame on a terminal is identical to being the top
>> frame of a terminal. This is currently not the case. A root frame on a
>> terminal can be visible but not displayed because it's not the top frame
>> of the terminal.
>
> If we say that on a tty there is always only one visible top/root frame,
> 'frame-visible-p' will return false for any other frame while on a GUI
> such a frame may be considered visible. This will create problems for
> all functions that investigate the visibility property of frames - in
> particular all functions calling candidate_frame in frame.c. Then
> 'next-frame', 'previous-frame' or 'display-buffer-use-some-window' will
> behave differently on ttys and GUIs. We could try to handle this case
> specially in candidate_frame but it's certainly not trivial.
Thanks for the pointer to candidate_frame. Do you think it would suffice
to change the FRAME_VISIBLE_P in candidate_frame to, in the tty case
FRAME_VISIBLE_P (f) || is_tty_root_frame (f)
?
(BTW, multi-tty ignorant here, why is it checking the kboard here?
if ((!FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && !FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
&& FRAME_KBOARD (c) == FRAME_KBOARD (f))
|| (FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
&& FRAME_TTY (c) == FRAME_TTY (f)))
Is that the focus thing?
)
What do you think of the general idea? I have the feeling that it would
make things easier to understand, but maybe that's just me. And it's the
only idea I have at the moment, how to remove the tty stuff from
do_switch_frame, and have a chance of getting this to work again. But
please tell me what you think.
>
>> 7. frame_redisplay_p can now be simplified and is equivalent to
>> frame_ancestors_visible_p on ttys.
>
> The frame_ancestors_visible_p thingy is mainly to make child frames
> behave in a similar way on GUIs and ttys. GUIs usually suppress the
> display of a child frame when one of its ancestors is invisible. On a
> tty that would not hinder us to display the child frame (we might have
> difficulties finding its correct position though).
Yeah, we can do whatever we want in combine_updates_for_frame. What's
currently there is what macOS does, on the same level, after producing
glyphs. Frame_redisplay_p basically optimizes producing glyphs that the
combined update doesn't display anyway.
>
> I think we'd have to investigate 'raise-frame' (tty_raise_lower_frame)
I've looked at tty_raise_frame. That one does nothing for root frames,
so that should be okay, I think.
> and 'select-frame-set-input-focus' - a focus_frame_hook will be needed
> for ttys. Only these two should be allowed to pro-actively change the
> top frame (to the root frame of a child frame when the child frame
> should be raised and/or get focus) and no one else should be allowed to
> do that. Implicitly, the top frame will also change when the old top
> frame is deleted, made invisible and (probably) lowered.
>
amke-frame-invisible is the case that uses next_frame which uses
candiate_frame. So that would need the change in candiate_frame, with
could be the is_tty_root_frame above. Right?
With the focus on ttys, I'm currently completely lost, I'm afraid,
especially in the multi-tty case.
> martin
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Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 09:56:08 +0100
> From: martin rudalics via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
> the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
>
> > My plan would be to simplify the handling of tty root frames so that the
> > visibility of a root frame on a terminal is identical to being the top
> > frame of a terminal. This is currently not the case. A root frame on a
> > terminal can be visible but not displayed because it's not the top frame
> > of the terminal.
>
> If we say that on a tty there is always only one visible top/root frame,
> 'frame-visible-p' will return false for any other frame while on a GUI
> such a frame may be considered visible. This will create problems for
> all functions that investigate the visibility property of frames - in
> particular all functions calling candidate_frame in frame.c. Then
> 'next-frame', 'previous-frame' or 'display-buffer-use-some-window' will
> behave differently on ttys and GUIs. We could try to handle this case
> specially in candidate_frame but it's certainly not trivial.
Exactly.
IMNSHO, it is conceptually wrong to consider non-top TTY frames to be
"invisible". They should be considered as "obscured by other frames",
perhaps, but not invisible. The invisible attribute of a GUI frame
means something that TTY frames simply don't support, and it is
interpreted by various parts of Emacs, including redisplay, in a
certain fashion that will cause us trouble on TTY frames.
There be dragons.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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> Cc: 80032 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN>
> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:36:08 +0100
>
> > If we say that on a tty there is always only one visible top/root frame,
> > 'frame-visible-p' will return false for any other frame while on a GUI
> > such a frame may be considered visible. This will create problems for
> > all functions that investigate the visibility property of frames - in
> > particular all functions calling candidate_frame in frame.c. Then
> > 'next-frame', 'previous-frame' or 'display-buffer-use-some-window' will
> > behave differently on ttys and GUIs. We could try to handle this case
> > specially in candidate_frame but it's certainly not trivial.
>
> Thanks for the pointer to candidate_frame. Do you think it would suffice
> to change the FRAME_VISIBLE_P in candidate_frame to, in the tty case
>
> FRAME_VISIBLE_P (f) || is_tty_root_frame (f)
>
> ?
If all TTY frames are visible, won't that addition change nothing at
all?
> (BTW, multi-tty ignorant here, why is it checking the kboard here?
>
> if ((!FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && !FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
> && FRAME_KBOARD (c) == FRAME_KBOARD (f))
> || (FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
> && FRAME_TTY (c) == FRAME_TTY (f)))
>
> Is that the focus thing?
Same keyboard means the frames are on the same terminal, AFAIK.
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Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 09:56:08 +0100
>> From: martin rudalics via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>> the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
>>
>> > My plan would be to simplify the handling of tty root frames so that the
>> > visibility of a root frame on a terminal is identical to being the top
>> > frame of a terminal. This is currently not the case. A root frame on a
>> > terminal can be visible but not displayed because it's not the top frame
>> > of the terminal.
>>
>> If we say that on a tty there is always only one visible top/root frame,
>> 'frame-visible-p' will return false for any other frame while on a GUI
>> such a frame may be considered visible. This will create problems for
>> all functions that investigate the visibility property of frames - in
>> particular all functions calling candidate_frame in frame.c. Then
>> 'next-frame', 'previous-frame' or 'display-buffer-use-some-window' will
>> behave differently on ttys and GUIs. We could try to handle this case
>> specially in candidate_frame but it's certainly not trivial.
>
> Exactly.
>
> IMNSHO, it is conceptually wrong to consider non-top TTY frames to be
> "invisible". They should be considered as "obscured by other frames",
> perhaps, but not invisible. The invisible attribute of a GUI frame
> means something that TTY frames simply don't support, and it is
> interpreted by various parts of Emacs, including redisplay, in a
> certain fashion that will cause us trouble on TTY frames.
You mean tty root frames, right? It doesn't work for tty child frames as
Martin already explained in another thread:
> Personally, I don't really understand the semantics of "invisible
> frame" when applied to TTY frames. There's no such thing,
> conceptually; what we do have is a frame that is hidden behind another
> one. Which means that selecting a frame makes it "visible" even if we
> made it invisible, since selecting a TTY frame also raises it.
You cannot hide a child frame "behind" its parent. A child frame must
always be on top of its parent. So the only way to hide a child frame
with its parent the top tty frame is to make the child frame invisible.
For root frames, maybe, where "obscured" currently is "root frame !=
top_frame", and is exactly what we have and do.
It's not that I'm eager to change that, expecially since the "normal"
use cases like Posframe and Corfu work very well. It's only that
playing with the top frame and visibility in do_switch_frame is really
ugly, and using the visibiligy of root frames I think could simplify
things overall.
But it's fine if others disagree. Let me close this, then.
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Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> Cc: 80032 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> From: Gerd M=C3=B6llmann <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 10:36:08 +0100
>>=20
>> > If we say that on a tty there is always only one visible top/root fram=
e,
>> > 'frame-visible-p' will return false for any other frame while on a GUI
>> > such a frame may be considered visible. This will create problems for
>> > all functions that investigate the visibility property of frames - in
>> > particular all functions calling candidate_frame in frame.c. Then
>> > 'next-frame', 'previous-frame' or 'display-buffer-use-some-window' will
>> > behave differently on ttys and GUIs. We could try to handle this case
>> > specially in candidate_frame but it's certainly not trivial.
>>=20
>> Thanks for the pointer to candidate_frame. Do you think it would suffice
>> to change the FRAME_VISIBLE_P in candidate_frame to, in the tty case
>>=20
>> FRAME_VISIBLE_P (f) || is_tty_root_frame (f)
>>=20
>> ?
>
> If all TTY frames are visible, won't that addition change nothing at
> all?
Under the assumption that there were only one visible root frame (=3D=3D top
frame) on a terminal, that would make invisible root frames a candidate
for next_frame and prev_frame.
>
>> (BTW, multi-tty ignorant here, why is it checking the kboard here?=20
>>=20
>> if ((!FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && !FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
>> && FRAME_KBOARD (c) =3D=3D FRAME_KBOARD (f))
>> || (FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
>> && FRAME_TTY (c) =3D=3D FRAME_TTY (f)))
>>=20
>> Is that the focus thing?
>
> Same keyboard means the frames are on the same terminal, AFAIK.
So it's redundant?
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Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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> From: Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN>
> Cc: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>, 80032 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 13:52:47 +0100
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > IMNSHO, it is conceptually wrong to consider non-top TTY frames to be
> > "invisible". They should be considered as "obscured by other frames",
> > perhaps, but not invisible. The invisible attribute of a GUI frame
> > means something that TTY frames simply don't support, and it is
> > interpreted by various parts of Emacs, including redisplay, in a
> > certain fashion that will cause us trouble on TTY frames.
>
> You mean tty root frames, right? It doesn't work for tty child frames as
> Martin already explained in another thread:
Yes, I mean TTY root frames. (I admit I don't understand well enough
the visibility concept of child frames.)
> For root frames, maybe, where "obscured" currently is "root frame !=
> top_frame", and is exactly what we have and do.
Then let's not consider non-top TTY frames "invisible".
> It's not that I'm eager to change that, expecially since the "normal"
> use cases like Posframe and Corfu work very well. It's only that
> playing with the top frame and visibility in do_switch_frame is really
> ugly, and using the visibiligy of root frames I think could simplify
> things overall.
If we want to make changes in this area, let's talk about "obscured
frames", and if necessary introduce a new frame attribute to support
that. Overloading "frame invisibility" with this meaning will cause
us trouble, since that concept was traditionally used only for GUI
frames, and there it has well-understood effects that are entrenched
in Emacs for a long time.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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> From: Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rudalics@HIDDEN, 80032 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 14:04:14 +0100
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> >> Thanks for the pointer to candidate_frame. Do you think it would suffice
> >> to change the FRAME_VISIBLE_P in candidate_frame to, in the tty case
> >>
> >> FRAME_VISIBLE_P (f) || is_tty_root_frame (f)
> >>
> >> ?
> >
> > If all TTY frames are visible, won't that addition change nothing at
> > all?
>
> Under the assumption that there were only one visible root frame (== top
> frame) on a terminal, that would make invisible root frames a candidate
> for next_frame and prev_frame.
Then let's test whether a frame is a top-frame, and consider it a
candidate only if it isn't. Frame visibility is not the right
attribute to use here, IMO.
> >> (BTW, multi-tty ignorant here, why is it checking the kboard here?
> >>
> >> if ((!FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && !FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
> >> && FRAME_KBOARD (c) == FRAME_KBOARD (f))
> >> || (FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
> >> && FRAME_TTY (c) == FRAME_TTY (f)))
> >>
> >> Is that the focus thing?
> >
> > Same keyboard means the frames are on the same terminal, AFAIK.
>
> So it's redundant?
For GUI frames, it isn't, AFAIU. Note that the above only tests
FRAME_KBOARD for GUI frames.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> From: Gerd M=C3=B6llmann <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: rudalics@HIDDEN, 80032 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 14:04:14 +0100
>>=20
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>>=20
>> >> Thanks for the pointer to candidate_frame. Do you think it would suff=
ice
>> >> to change the FRAME_VISIBLE_P in candidate_frame to, in the tty case
>> >>=20
>> >> FRAME_VISIBLE_P (f) || is_tty_root_frame (f)
>> >>=20
>> >> ?
>> >
>> > If all TTY frames are visible, won't that addition change nothing at
>> > all?
>>=20
>> Under the assumption that there were only one visible root frame (=3D=3D=
top
>> frame) on a terminal, that would make invisible root frames a candidate
>> for next_frame and prev_frame.
>
> Then let's test whether a frame is a top-frame, and consider it a
> candidate only if it isn't. Frame visibility is not the right
> attribute to use here, IMO.
>
>> >> (BTW, multi-tty ignorant here, why is it checking the kboard here?=20
>> >>=20
>> >> if ((!FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && !FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
>> >> && FRAME_KBOARD (c) =3D=3D FRAME_KBOARD (f))
>> >> || (FRAME_TERMCAP_P (c) && FRAME_TERMCAP_P (f)
>> >> && FRAME_TTY (c) =3D=3D FRAME_TTY (f)))
>> >>=20
>> >> Is that the focus thing?
>> >
>> > Same keyboard means the frames are on the same terminal, AFAIK.
>>=20
>> So it's redundant?
>
> For GUI frames, it isn't, AFAIU. Note that the above only tests
> FRAME_KBOARD for GUI frames.
Duh, of course.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#80032: 31.0.50; [Internals] tty frame visibility
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From: Gerd =?UTF-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN>
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Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 14:27:05 +0100
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> From: Gerd M=C3=B6llmann <gerd.moellmann@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>, 80032 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2025 13:52:47 +0100
>>=20
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>>=20
>> > IMNSHO, it is conceptually wrong to consider non-top TTY frames to be
>> > "invisible". They should be considered as "obscured by other frames",
>> > perhaps, but not invisible. The invisible attribute of a GUI frame
>> > means something that TTY frames simply don't support, and it is
>> > interpreted by various parts of Emacs, including redisplay, in a
>> > certain fashion that will cause us trouble on TTY frames.
>>=20
>> You mean tty root frames, right? It doesn't work for tty child frames as
>> Martin already explained in another thread:
>
> Yes, I mean TTY root frames. (I admit I don't understand well enough
> the visibility concept of child frames.)
(That's easy: child frames are copied to the resulting frame matrix if
they themselves and all their ancestors are visible. That's the same as
what Cocoa does, for example.)
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