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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jidanni.org; s=dreamhost; t=1775383840; bh=WJhXMAGn6dc/G5LecfqsZGbO6jFVRRXW/NXStPpvh8w=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=VtrILej9/WLJMXq6bKl60lD3ljSnW1OWpeYDmaLMOYJY0yYtjwq/ob49P0C7sTeL1 qSxKaUqFt3wa5QRjIv4+oaVT2SZwfH9lGpFHxKKAMnJQymi5z82UulKvb5+O31vb19 NeagPZ+PVFR5HF68BEJyD/mzrHE8bcJL2TCvWekoRREhTBys1viS+wGs0lKcnijCbe 7e1UCIajeDDOZ/WNstbFEJFdqB2Se+a9imjszWsMP5JFfagXiGkH9QgV5UHngU7O4B vjeL/rfHiZ6/EI66hDqsWnVwaDipomQljq/2+qu9rMAGR9bT3er8wE0Eri3kkFQiLC k3kiHs4CbjtPw== Received: from jidanni by jidanni.org with local (Exim 4.98.2) (envelope-from <jidanni@HIDDEN>) id 1w9KRE-000000006iW-3jet; Sun, 05 Apr 2026 18:10:40 +0800 From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni@HIDDEN> To: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#80734: Don't tell users *they* gave an improper argument References: <87pl4g7ct1.3.fsf@HIDDEN> <77243a93-3117-4649-94b9-2626c831d9de@HIDDEN> <87v7e6567y.3.fsf@HIDDEN> <3613642e-e8db-477e-9ca3-7d7ee2868323@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2026 18:10:40 +0800 Message-ID: <87jyul67kv.3.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 80734 Cc: 80734 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Well then say "Internal error: please be sure to report to bug..@... and in your error report paste these details: ....." Note: Note: Note: I am not trying to debug what happened to me. I'm trying to get better error messages in the general case.
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#80734; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at 80734) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Apr 2026 05:28:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 05 01:28:14 2026 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53963 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1w9G1u-0004eD-Hz for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Apr 2026 01:28:14 -0400 Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.66]:33642) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eggert@HIDDEN>) id 1w9G1s-0004dm-DK for 80734 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 05 Apr 2026 01:28:13 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C503C1082EC; Sat, 4 Apr 2026 22:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10032) with ESMTP id sC_S6MgNtixK; Sat, 4 Apr 2026 22:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23663C1082ED; Sat, 4 Apr 2026 22:28:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.cs.ucla.edu E23663C1082ED DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cs.ucla.edu; s=9D0B346E-2AEB-11ED-9476-E14B719DCE6C; t=1775366885; bh=FzhezHMvlfBw49TxnqzC+8U57+EDLtKtXd9Hx6gvXyA=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:To:From; b=gPZ1iUTMq3PxW3+Y69LOMSYyQNSz7uB5+RDQCPNYePF3GKaYdyCCbkzkbS1iX3mCQ XSzyM6Sl48xuJCbMoK8H7PT0Yfbc+70768Ss+ikYKp85i/RCFQgrx4nb7fT9Fs9Jq/ kpVsEN7k17jypJyPdY84XGK0yyfvItVZ/zEcf8nQNs23350Cs7uWVTpYsRH/Htdf1d QHfkX/xfg0gqJi1caIj+3SKKx9Agf/u/NFL3b2JrPvFjqvjVqRcW4kyfE2DyD4odBe 3rNRO8CQRZgjnsV/to7KhJKFc1adi1xvjDdq7XO0a8g7EkDdi7gXxcQMcQtRn8kEMU bSGW/JFofx+Xg== X-Virus-Scanned: amavis at mail.cs.ucla.edu Received: from mail.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavis, port 10026) with ESMTP id Hmt_iujewbnm; Sat, 4 Apr 2026 22:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from penguin.cs.ucla.edu (47-154-25-11.fdr01.snmn.ca.ip.frontiernet.net [47.154.25.11]) by mail.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B61A73C1082EC; Sat, 4 Apr 2026 22:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3613642e-e8db-477e-9ca3-7d7ee2868323@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2026 22:28:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#80734: Don't tell users *they* gave an improper argument To: Dan Jacobson <jidanni@HIDDEN> References: <87pl4g7ct1.3.fsf@HIDDEN> <77243a93-3117-4649-94b9-2626c831d9de@HIDDEN> <87v7e6567y.3.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Language: en-US From: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department In-Reply-To: <87v7e6567y.3.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 80734 Cc: 80734 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 2026-04-04 22:25, Dan Jacobson wrote: > 'Action failed. The system responded with "EBARF". Sorry.' To my mind that wording is just as confusing as the original. Maybe even more confusing. If we're going to make progress here, more legwork needs to be done, most likely along the lines I suggested earlier.
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#80734; Package coreutils.
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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jidanni.org; s=dreamhost; t=1775366721; bh=hlZOnC5Ux7pU557p/mgnRXvuiu5wKlOx4ZPFArwG7zE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:Content-Type; b=Et0SEH9lGq+m8yAngXdSKDiKhqUHUCw89qbzarlU2tIQkzhHozh19m+AQj4msLBdk WApj7lR2LmjUa1V9EqXWshnCvHbarQOwonae4bCXuSyUgiRTP+szkIHcQMD8UvatfA PB0HrnX+8kRb+lQqbhTiqQOsdntW5NXEVQnwv0Fh5mADiKt0wN7wbER7znHVJBdKIf /3YcJl74iQPG8XDmYmny1D3I5gg4qHk+Vo/WME0poz8ytsNWylpK3aZti1t8A3/Qfb MTO0rtxo/YFvrcN0o/tZlWXAcnb3OML23J701sImwfvHmkNUKknVAJcUeE/Sc2NfhY GWMGj4fMZWmJg== Received: from jidanni by jidanni.org with local (Exim 4.98.2) (envelope-from <jidanni@HIDDEN>) id 1w9Fz7-00000000685-194v; Sun, 05 Apr 2026 13:25:21 +0800 From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni@HIDDEN> To: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#80734: Don't tell users *they* gave an improper argument References: <87pl4g7ct1.3.fsf@HIDDEN> <77243a93-3117-4649-94b9-2626c831d9de@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2026 13:25:21 +0800 Message-ID: <87v7e6567y.3.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 80734 Cc: 80734 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>>>> "PE" == Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> writes: PE> Can you investigate with strace what actually went wrong in your case, PE> and then suggest a better wording for the diagnostic? Thanks. Just say: 'Action failed. The system responded with "EBARF". Sorry.' That way the Coreutils team won't be blamed for the problem, and the user can look up for themselves whatever the response was given means, and the Coreutils team needn't keep a list of each system's error codes.
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#80734; Package coreutils.
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bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#80734; Package coreutils.
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Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:55:38 +0800 From: Dan Jacobson <jidanni@HIDDEN> To: bug-coreutils@HIDDEN Subject: Don't tell users *they* gave an improper argument Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:55:38 +0800 Message-ID: <87pl4g7ct1.3.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=23.83.218.253; envelope-from=jidanni@HIDDEN; helo=iguana.tulip.relay.mailchannels.net X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) $ sudo mv /tmp/eee Downloads/ mv: failed to preserve ownership for 'Downloads/eee': Invalid argument 'Downloads/eee': Invalid argument This is a wrong error message. The user didn't give an argument. Not only are you are telling the user that they gave an invalid argument, you don't even tell them what it was. Just like if you are charged with a crime, and the prosecutor doesn't even need to produce any evidence. Yes we know what causes this, https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/coreutils/2015-04/msg00080.html I'm just saying you need to make better error messages. When you say improper argument, you are actually talking about how an internal part of coreutils is calling another internal part of coreutils improperly. I.e., internal error! I am not saying you need to change this to make it work. All I am saying is you need to give proper error messages, saying the whole problem. I am not saying you need to fix the problem. Just tell the user what is actually going on, without them needing strace(1). Yes I know what is going on. Don't tell me. Tell all users in a better error message. Thanks.
Dan Jacobson <jidanni@HIDDEN>:bug-coreutils@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#80734; Package coreutils.
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