Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Aug 2011 16:03:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 28 12:03:13 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QxhpH-0000Pk-3u for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:03:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QxhpA-0000PR-6A for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:03:09 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QxhmI-0000Mo-8e for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:00:07 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:52777) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QxhmI-0000MV-0V for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:00:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42733) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QxhmG-0006Ud-NH for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:00:05 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QxhmE-0000KK-Lb for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:00:04 -0400 Received: from blade.simplesystems.org ([65.66.246.74]:52371) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QxhmE-0000Ip-4s for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:00:02 -0400 Received: from freddy.simplesystems.org (freddy.simplesystems.org [65.66.246.65]) by blade.simplesystems.org (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p7SFxnuB025506; Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:59:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:59:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen@HIDDEN> X-X-Sender: bfriesen@HIDDEN To: Christophe Jarry <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#9210: Documentation: misleading wording In-Reply-To: <20110828163457.729ebc62@yeeloong> Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108281051020.2724@HIDDEN> References: <20110731155920.0b8b15c5@yeeloong> <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108021320370.23189@HIDDEN> <20110804205316.4347e256@yeeloong> <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108041417410.13380@HIDDEN> <20110805224430.595f17b6@yeeloong> <20110828163457.729ebc62@yeeloong> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (GSO 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (blade.simplesystems.org [65.66.246.90]); Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:59:50 -0500 (CDT) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Libtool Bugs List <bug-libtool@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Christophe Jarry wrote: > Bob, > > As a GNU maintainer, you have to comply with the document named "Information > for Maintainers of GNU Software": The contract I signed with the FSF does not support anyone ordering me to do anything. Of course any contributions I may make will follow the FSF maintainer rules (existing at the time) as much as is reasonable. Currently there are 8 instances of bare 'Linux' in the Libtool manual and 26 in the Libtool ChangeLogs. If one searches through all files in a configured libtool source tree, there are 290 instances. Other FSF packages have similar issues. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen@HIDDEN, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-libtool@HIDDEN:bug#9210; Package libtool.
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From: Christophe Jarry <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>
To: Libtool Bugs List <bug-libtool@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#9210: Documentation: misleading wording
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Bob,
As a GNU maintainer, you have to comply with the document named "Information
for Maintainers of GNU Software":
=46rom http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Preface:
If you are or would like to be a GNU maintainer, then it is essential to
follow these guidelines.
=46rom http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#GNU-and-Linux:
The GNU Project was formed to develop a free Unix-like operating system,
GNU. The existence of this system is our major accomplishment. However,=
the
widely used version of the GNU system, in which Linux is used as the ke=
rnel,
is often called simply =E2=80=9CLinux=E2=80=9D. As a result, most users=
don=E2=80=99t know about the
GNU Project=E2=80=99s major accomplishment=E2=80=94or more precisely, t=
hey know about it,
but don=E2=80=99t realize it is the GNU Project=E2=80=99s accomplishmen=
t and reason for
existence. Even people who believe they know the real history often bel=
ieve
that the goal of GNU was to develop =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=
=9Cutilities.=E2=80=9D
To correct this confusion, we have made a years-long effort to distingu=
ish
between Linux, the kernel that Linus Torvalds wrote, and GNU/Linux, the
operating system that is the combination of GNU and Linux. The resulting
increased awareness of what the GNU Project has already done helps every
activity of the GNU Project recruit more support and contributors.
Please make this distinction consistently in GNU software releases, GNU
documentation, and announcements and articles that you publish in your =
role
as the maintainer of a GNU package. If you want to explain the terminol=
ogy
and its reasons, you can refer to the URL
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html.
To contrast the GNU system properly with respect to GNU/Linux, you can =
call
it =E2=80=9CGNU/Hurd=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe GNU/Hurd system.=E2=80=9D=
However, when that contrast is not
specifically the focus, please call it just =E2=80=9CGNU=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Cthe GNU system.=E2=80=9D
When referring to the collection of servers that is the higher level of=
the
GNU kernel, please call it =E2=80=9Cthe Hurd=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe G=
NU Hurd.=E2=80=9D Note that this uses
a space, not a slash.
Please fix section "Platform-specific configuration notes" of Libtool's man=
ual
accordingly.
Christophe
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-libtool@HIDDEN:bug#9210; Package libtool.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 5 Aug 2011 20:49:16 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Aug 05 16:49:16 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QpRKW-0007FP-G7 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 16:49:16 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>) id 1QpRKS-0007FF-0Z for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 16:49:13 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>) id 1QpRJg-000169-3i for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 16:48:25 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:60320) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>) id 1QpRJg-000164-06 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 16:48:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:42498) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>) id 1QpRJe-0008Vf-IJ for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 16:48:23 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>) id 1QpRJd-00015a-Gh for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 16:48:22 -0400 Received: from smtp10.smtpout.orange.fr ([80.12.242.132]:39926 helo=smtp.smtpout.orange.fr) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>) id 1QpRJd-00015Q-9Z for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 16:48:21 -0400 Received: from yeeloong ([92.152.244.48]) by mwinf5d45 with ME id GkoG1h00213NUvw03koGeq; Fri, 05 Aug 2011 22:48:18 +0200 X-ME-engine: default Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 22:44:30 +0200 From: Christophe Jarry <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN> To: Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#9210: Documentation: misleading wording Message-ID: <20110805224430.595f17b6@yeeloong> In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108041417410.13380@HIDDEN> References: <20110731155920.0b8b15c5@yeeloong> <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108021320370.23189@HIDDEN> <20110804205316.4347e256@yeeloong> <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108041417410.13380@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.5.0 (GTK+ 2.20.1; mipsel-unknown-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Libtool Bugs List <bug-libtool@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:35:03 -0500 (CDT) Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen@HIDDEN> wrote: > The reason why I call it "foolish" is that it serves no useful > purpose. Naming the entire system "GNU/Linux" serves at least one purpose: it makes the reader aware of the GNU project's existence and the Free Software philosophy behind it. So I think this is useful. Christophe
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-libtool@HIDDEN:bug#9210; Package libtool.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Aug 2011 19:36:01 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 04 15:36:00 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1Qp3i4-0005yN-6J for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:36:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1Qp3i1-0005yF-8j for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:35:58 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1Qp3hL-0007I9-GX for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:35:16 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:53487) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1Qp3hL-0007I5-BR for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:35:15 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:32792) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1Qp3hK-0004hF-9p for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:35:15 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1Qp3hI-0007Hv-6V for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:35:14 -0400 Received: from blade.simplesystems.org ([65.66.246.74]:49814) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1Qp3hH-0007E4-UC for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 15:35:12 -0400 Received: from freddy.simplesystems.org (freddy.simplesystems.org [65.66.246.65]) by blade.simplesystems.org (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p74JZ3SP026761; Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:35:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:35:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen@HIDDEN> X-X-Sender: bfriesen@HIDDEN To: Christophe Jarry <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#9210: Documentation: misleading wording In-Reply-To: <20110804205316.4347e256@yeeloong> Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108041417410.13380@HIDDEN> References: <20110731155920.0b8b15c5@yeeloong> <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108021320370.23189@HIDDEN> <20110804205316.4347e256@yeeloong> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (GSO 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (blade.simplesystems.org [65.66.246.90]); Thu, 04 Aug 2011 14:35:04 -0500 (CDT) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Libtool Bugs List <bug-libtool@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) On Thu, 4 Aug 2011, Christophe Jarry wrote: >> While libtool is a GNU project, I think that this effort by the FSF to >> independently re-entitle Linux to "GNU/Linux" subsequent to the >> effective failure of their Hurd OS is foolish > > Why is it foolish? During the first years I used GNU/Linux, I believed Linus > Torvalds did write the entire operating system, just because I only knew the > name "Linux" for the entire system! So I think it is fair to say GNU/Linux. I agree with you that all major contributors should be recognized. However, it is not necessary/useful to change the name to suit each major contributor. The reason why I call it "foolish" is that it serves no useful purpose. > What is a typical GNU/Linux system? Ubtuntu desktop with GNOME and KDE. > So technically speaking, GNU tools are required to run a GNU/Linux system. At the moment, only the GNU C library is required to run a GNU/Linux system. If this is replaced with a non-GNU C library, then Linux can run without the GNU. >> I think that it is better to stick with the names that the developers of the >> Linux kernel and the users prefer to use. > > In what way is that better? Because it is what they prefer to use. If GNU developers cared about this issue then all instances of "Linux" in package documentation would have been substituted to "GNU/Linux" quite some time ago. Instead they silently ignore it similar to the way they previously ignored the RMS directive to use only Scheme and Guile for scripting. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen@HIDDEN, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-libtool@HIDDEN:bug#9210; Package libtool.
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Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:53:15 +0200
From: Christophe Jarry <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>
To: Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#9210: Documentation: misleading wording
Message-ID: <20110804205316.4347e256@yeeloong>
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> While libtool is a GNU project, I think that this effort by the FSF to=20
> independently re-entitle Linux to "GNU/Linux" subsequent to the=20
> effective failure of their Hurd OS is foolish
Why is it foolish? During the first years I used GNU/Linux, I believed Linus
Torvalds did write the entire operating system, just because I only knew the
name "Linux" for the entire system! So I think it is fair to say GNU/Linux.
=46rom http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#why:
Many other projects contributed to the system as it is today; it includ=
es
TeX, X11, Apache, Perl, and many more programs. Don't your arguments im=
ply
we have to give them credit too? (But that would lead to a name so long=
it
is absurd.)
What we say is that you ought to give the system's principal developer a
share of the credit. The principal developer is the GNU Project, and the
system is basically GNU.
If you feel even more strongly about giving credit where it is due, you
might feel that some secondary contributors also deserve credit in the
system's name. If so, far be it from us to argue against it. If you feel
that X11 deserves credit in the system's name, and you want to call the
system GNU/X11/Linux, please do. If you feel that Perl simply cries out=
for
mention, and you want to write GNU/Linux/Perl, go ahead.
Since a long name such as GNU/X11/Apache/Linux/TeX/Perl/Python/FreeCiv
becomes absurd, at some point you will have to set a threshold and omit=
the
names of the many other secondary contributions. There is no one obvious
right place to set the threshold, so wherever you set it, we won't argue
against it.
Different threshold levels would lead to different choices of name for =
the
system. But one name that cannot result from concerns of fairness and g=
iving
credit, not for any possible threshold level, is =E2=80=9CLinux=E2=80=
=9D. It can't be fair
to give all the credit to one secondary contribution (Linux) while omit=
ting
the principal contribution (GNU).
> and it ignores that most software in a typical "Linux" system is not the
> Linux kernel or FSF/GNU software.=20
What is a typical GNU/Linux system?
=46rom http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#allsmall:
GNU is a small fraction of the system nowadays, so why should we mention
it?
In 2008, we found that GNU packages made up 15% of the =E2=80=9Cmain=E2=
=80=9D repository of
the gNewSense GNU/Linux distribution. Linux made up 1.5%. So the same
argument would apply even more strongly to calling it =E2=80=9CLinux=E2=
=80=9D.
GNU is a small fraction of the system nowadays, and Linux is an even
smaller fraction. But they are the system's core; the system was made by
combining them. Thus, the name =E2=80=9CGNU/Linux=E2=80=9D remains appr=
opriate.
As far as I know, all GNU/Linux distributions use:
-=C2=A0the kernel Linux (or its deblobbed version called Linux-Libre - see
http://www.fsfla.org/svnwiki/anuncio/2010-03-Linux-2.6.33-libre.en),
-=C2=A0GNU Compiler Collection, GNU Binutils, GLIBC (or EGLIBC, which is he=
avily
based on GLIBC) and other build tools (GNU make, automake, autoconf and c=
o).
On that base, the user or developer builds a set of tools to suit her needs.
These tools can come from outside of the GNU project and outside from Linux.
So technically speaking, GNU tools are required to run a GNU/Linux system.
But what distinguishes GNU/Linux from most of the other operating systems? =
It
gives her user the 4 freedoms of using, modifying, sharing the entire opera=
ting
system and sharing modifications of it.
Basically, people that call the operating system "Linux" consider that free
software tools have to be widespread whatever the price, so they often
distribute GNU/Linux with proprietary programs to make it more appealing for
GNU/Linux new comers. But this has the effect to support proprietary softwa=
re
instead of free software. It makes GNU/Linux become more and more a proprie=
tary
operating system like Windows.
For most of them, the only advantage taken from GNU/Linux is that it is "fr=
ee
of charge".
> I think that it is better to stick with the names that the developers of =
the
> Linux kernel and the users prefer to use.
In what way is that better?
> The same logic could be used to create the names GNU/FreeBSD,=20
> GNU/NetBSD, GNU/Solaris, GNU/Darwin, etc., because most of these OSs=20
> include some GNU components.
=46rom http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#bsd:
Should we say =E2=80=9CGNU/BSD=E2=80=9D too?
We don't call the BSD systems (FreeBSD, etc.) =E2=80=9CGNU/BSD=E2=80=9D=
systems, because
that term does not fit the history of the BSD systems.
The BSD system was developed by UC Berkeley as non-free software in the
80s, and became free in the early 90s. A free operating system that exi=
sts
today is almost certainly either a variant of the GNU system, or a kind=
of
BSD system.
People sometimes ask whether BSD too is a variant of GNU, as GNU/Linux =
is.
It is not. The BSD developers were inspired to make their code free sof=
tware
by the example of the GNU Project, and explicit appeals from GNU activi=
sts
helped convince them to start, but the code had little overlap with
GNU. =
=20
BSD systems today use some GNU packages, just as the GNU system and its
variants use some BSD programs; however, taken as wholes, they are two
different systems that evolved separately. The BSD developers did not w=
rite
a kernel and add it to the GNU system, so a name like GNU/BSD would not=
fit
the situation.
The connection between GNU/Linux and GNU is much closer, and that's why=
the
name =E2=80=9CGNU/Linux=E2=80=9D is appropriate for it.
There is a version of GNU which uses the kernel from NetBSD. Its develo=
pers
call it =E2=80=9CDebian GNU/NetBSD=E2=80=9D, but =E2=80=9CGNU/kernelofN=
etBSD=E2=80=9D would be more
accurate, since NetBSD is an entire system, not just the kernel. This i=
s not
a BSD system, since most of the system is the same as the GNU/Linux sys=
tem.
Christophe
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-libtool@HIDDEN:bug#9210; Package libtool.
Full text available.Received: (at 9210) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 Aug 2011 04:14:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 04 00:14:49 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QopKa-00080B-Kz for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2011 00:14:49 -0400 Received: from out3.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <cygwin@HIDDEN>) id 1Qomkt-0004Pu-W0 for 9210 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 21:29:49 -0400 Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.mail.srv.osa [10.202.2.41]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1A92059D for <9210 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 03 Aug 2011 21:29:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; s=smtpout; bh=4k2w5AXEd54rK4XVIhmrWi 1deKs=; b=GCQvLRGatDug/RmQItZcWry9BTV0zREc10VEVh2wb/nUk+nrJIbGTq hCv5jPDshmT8gba0GsAtCAaMG0NqSwcOKKFynGjEl/zQ5sVWNj0tnSxLcaS4Al2v eTCaXvD29xCU0ox61jtYVPnu+NRBuCfDwghoN5g8O1CoEwdsB5oxw= X-Sasl-enc: 953aU1A9FMCxQbIT1bd5ETIWdiujBw+BsnbHEA2I703D 1312421350 Received: from [192.168.1.3] (50-88-210-98.res.bhn.net [50.88.210.98]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C73E3458010; Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4E39F5E1.1000304@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 21:29:05 -0400 From: Charles Wilson <cygwin@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.8.1.23) Gecko/20090812 Thunderbird/2.0.0.23 Mnenhy/0.7.6.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 9210 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#9210: Documentation: misleading wording References: <20110731155920.0b8b15c5@yeeloong> <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108021320370.23189@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108021320370.23189@HIDDEN> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 9210 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 00:14:48 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -3.6 (---) On 8/2/2011 2:29 PM, Bob Friesenhahn wrote: > While libtool is a GNU project, I think that this effort by the FSF to > independently re-entitle Linux to "GNU/Linux" subsequent to the > effective failure of their Hurd OS is foolish and it ignores that most > software in a typical "Linux" system is not the Linux kernel or FSF/GNU > software. I think that it is better to stick with the names that the > developers of the Linux kernel and the users prefer to use. > > The same logic could be used to create the names GNU/FreeBSD, > GNU/NetBSD, GNU/Solaris, GNU/Darwin, etc., because most of these OSs > include some GNU components. "How much GNU is there in GNU/Linux?" http://lwn.net/Articles/445454/ Answer: between 8 and 13%, depending on whether you count the (now practically independent) Gnome stuff. By LOCC, the kernel alone is as big as all the GNU stuff put together. -- Chuck
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-libtool@HIDDEN:bug#9210; Package libtool.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Aug 2011 16:23:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Aug 03 12:23:30 2011 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1QoeEC-0000SO-88 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:23:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QoJmK-0007Cw-1X for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:33:21 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QoJll-0006Sy-UP for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:32:50 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:39068) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QoJll-0006Sq-Rj for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:32:45 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44929) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QoJla-0001Pd-Ki for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:32:45 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QoJlY-0006K6-CF for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:32:34 -0400 Received: from blade.simplesystems.org ([65.66.246.74]:40651) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <bfriesen@HIDDEN>) id 1QoJlX-0006Hr-Io for bug-libtool@HIDDEN; Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:32:32 -0400 Received: from freddy.simplesystems.org (freddy.simplesystems.org [65.66.246.65]) by blade.simplesystems.org (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id p72ITeXL014678; Tue, 2 Aug 2011 13:29:41 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 13:29:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen@HIDDEN> X-X-Sender: bfriesen@HIDDEN To: Christophe Jarry <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#9210: Documentation: misleading wording In-Reply-To: <20110731155920.0b8b15c5@yeeloong> Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.01.1108021320370.23189@HIDDEN> References: <20110731155920.0b8b15c5@yeeloong> User-Agent: Alpine 2.01 (GSO 1266 2009-07-14) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (blade.simplesystems.org [65.66.246.90]); Tue, 02 Aug 2011 13:29:41 -0500 (CDT) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 12:23:27 -0400 Cc: Libtool Bugs List <bug-libtool@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -6.6 (------) On Sun, 31 Jul 2011, Christophe Jarry wrote: > Dear maintainers, > > Today I browsed > http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/html_node/Configure-notes.html#Configure-notes > and read this: > > When building on some linux systems [...] > > I am surprised you use the name "linux" to designate the entire system. I think > you should use "GNU/Linux" instead. For more information, please read > http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html. While libtool is a GNU project, I think that this effort by the FSF to independently re-entitle Linux to "GNU/Linux" subsequent to the effective failure of their Hurd OS is foolish and it ignores that most software in a typical "Linux" system is not the Linux kernel or FSF/GNU software. I think that it is better to stick with the names that the developers of the Linux kernel and the users prefer to use. The same logic could be used to create the names GNU/FreeBSD, GNU/NetBSD, GNU/Solaris, GNU/Darwin, etc., because most of these OSs include some GNU components. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfriesen@HIDDEN, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer, http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-libtool@HIDDEN:bug#9210; Package libtool.
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From: Christophe Jarry <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>
To: bug-libtool@HIDDEN
Subject: Documentation: misleading wording
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Dear maintainers,
Today I browsed
http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/html_node/Configure-notes.html#Configure-notes
and read this:
When building on some linux systems [...]
I am surprised you use the name "linux" to designate the entire system. I think
you should use "GNU/Linux" instead. For more information, please read
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html.
Christophe
Christophe Jarry <christophe.jarry@HIDDEN>:bug-libtool@HIDDEN.
Full text available.owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-libtool@HIDDEN:bug#9210; Package libtool.
Full text available.
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