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Subject: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation" description.
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In the Info node for the Emacs user manual "(emacs) Package
Installation", there is the following paragraph:

"To keep Emacs from automatically making packages available at
startup, change the variable =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 to=
 =E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99.  You
must do this in the early init file, as the variable is read before
loading the regular init file.  Currently this variable cannot be set
via Customize."

The final sentence in this paragraph says that
=E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 cannot be set via Customize, bu=
t it is
possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize.  Type the
following:

M-x customize-option RET
Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET

After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At
Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should
not be possible.

--=20
The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
- Geoffrey Chaucer, The Parliament of Birds.

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From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#70402: Acknowledgement (29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package
 Installation" description.)
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Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation" description.
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 22:24:01 +0300
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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> From: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400
> 
> In the Info node for the Emacs user manual "(emacs) Package
> Installation", there is the following paragraph:
> 
> "To keep Emacs from automatically making packages available at
> startup, change the variable ‘package-enable-at-startup’ to ‘nil’.  You
> must do this in the early init file, as the variable is read before
> loading the regular init file.  Currently this variable cannot be set
> via Customize."
> 
> The final sentence in this paragraph says that
> ‘package-enable-at-startup’ cannot be set via Customize, but it is
> possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize.  Type the
> following:
> 
> M-x customize-option RET
> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET
> 
> After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At
> Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should
> not be possible.

I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that
customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it
must be set before reading the init file.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation" description.
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From: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN>
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 2024 22:24:01 +0300")
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Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:16:54 -0400
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400
>>=20
>>=20
>> The final sentence in this paragraph says that
>> =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 cannot be set via Customize,=
 but it is
>> possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize.  Type the
>> following:
>>=20
>> M-x customize-option RET
>> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET
>>=20
>> After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At
>> Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should
>> not be possible.

>
> I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that
> customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it
> must be set before reading the init file.

If I understand you correctly, then there are two reasons, rather than
one, for why the variable =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 shoul=
d not be an
(customizable) option:

1. Because the Emacs user manual says that it cannot be set (it can).

2. Because setting the variable via =E2=80=98customize-option=E2=80=99 has =
no effect (it
happens too late in the initialization sequence?).

If the user manual says that "something" cannot be done and doing so
anyway would have no effect, then it should not be possible to do that
"something."

--=20
The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.
- Geoffrey Chaucer, The Parliament of Birds.

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tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>>> From: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN>
>>> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The final sentence in this paragraph says that
>>> =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 cannot be set via Customize=
, but it is
>>> possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize.  Type the
>>> following:
>>>=20
>>> M-x customize-option RET
>>> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET
>>>=20
>>> After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At
>>> Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should
>>> not be possible.
>
>>
>> I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that
>> customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it
>> must be set before reading the init file.
>
> If I understand you correctly, then there are two reasons, rather than
> one, for why the variable =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 sho=
uld not be an
> (customizable) option:
>
> 1. Because the Emacs user manual says that it cannot be set (it can).
>
> 2. Because setting the variable via =E2=80=98customize-option=E2=80=99 ha=
s no effect (it
> happens too late in the initialization sequence?).
>
> If the user manual says that "something" cannot be done and doing so
> anyway would have no effect, then it should not be possible to do that
> "something."

When in doubt, "cannot" for Emacs usually means "will not do what you
want it to" instead of "it is not possible to", or that is at least how
I read the sentence here.  That being said, I guess the manual could be
clarified, or one could revert `package-enable-at-startup' to a regular
variable?  I am not sure what the policy on the last point is.

--=20
	Philip Kaludercic on peregrine

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