Received: (at 70402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Apr 2024 12:35:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 22 08:35:10 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45894 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ryst4-0001sL-9Q for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 22 Apr 2024 08:35:10 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:33851) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <philipk@HIDDEN>) id 1ryst1-0001rv-9U for 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 22 Apr 2024 08:35:08 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1288240107 for <70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 22 Apr 2024 14:34:44 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1713789284; bh=pVllB7ioaUq3zGVlrZmjKWetEzg3DCgksZQWUe+cpVA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:From; b=JbCgzwYNTCbJrMTXxClOF53BFokIrnxJuDDxhx4S70nNC2D0onvtjRG84rrJ9jE7e 1VzF/U7rqFjIOfun50/HkvLPi7LgRMssFUz//8Pvk+mho7sKQg7Z8mAQ1OczIf69dO Kd07QcsobKhLQEPzfCOYDGEuA/KjF3qU6KBjhCUKxYmzr9HSMYH3RFnFmolaBqxlgu pkZF6nbLJdwqMmH3C7v2UELcGVOumZViLC6QXxa2FkUnjkacPUmDAiaFgzpRWcKqGb UZRpxYu9B6RsZhsQ26SbfYdepYq0C80Ubs/txd7nvkdpy2dM66lHzgf/LTy54oTVTS J7TsOCBiA/KwA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4VNPpC5xkLz9rxG; Mon, 22 Apr 2024 14:34:43 +0200 (CEST) From: Philip Kaludercic <philipk@HIDDEN> To: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation" description. In-Reply-To: <87le5caujd.fsf@HIDDEN> (tpeplt@HIDDEN's message of "Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:16:54 -0400") References: <87bk6ao3cy.fsf@HIDDEN> <86mspujupa.fsf@HIDDEN> <87le5caujd.fsf@HIDDEN> OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2024 12:34:43 +0000 Message-ID: <87y195tw2k.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70402 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN> writes: > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > >>> From: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN> >>> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The final sentence in this paragraph says that >>> =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 cannot be set via Customize= , but it is >>> possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize. Type the >>> following: >>>=20 >>> M-x customize-option RET >>> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET >>>=20 >>> After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At >>> Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should >>> not be possible. > >> >> I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that >> customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it >> must be set before reading the init file. > > If I understand you correctly, then there are two reasons, rather than > one, for why the variable =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 sho= uld not be an > (customizable) option: > > 1. Because the Emacs user manual says that it cannot be set (it can). > > 2. Because setting the variable via =E2=80=98customize-option=E2=80=99 ha= s no effect (it > happens too late in the initialization sequence?). > > If the user manual says that "something" cannot be done and doing so > anyway would have no effect, then it should not be possible to do that > "something." When in doubt, "cannot" for Emacs usually means "will not do what you want it to" instead of "it is not possible to", or that is at least how I read the sentence here. That being said, I guess the manual could be clarified, or one could revert `package-enable-at-startup' to a regular variable? I am not sure what the policy on the last point is. --=20 Philip Kaludercic on peregrine
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70402; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2024 15:17:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 17 11:17:23 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46498 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1rx72F-0001CU-1j for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:17:22 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]:56756) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <tpeplt@HIDDEN>) id 1rx72B-0001BR-94 for 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:17:17 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-78edc3e7cd9so257061285a.1 for <70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 17 Apr 2024 08:17:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1713367016; x=1713971816; darn=debbugs.gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=aAmu42WJwZ8LiA1BBCzcnDZH0xmvESdUPHslRx+5thY=; b=FDk3NgEoNLaFxH3Y+ixWyLQq9Sh5Um6WER6AdhhC+Pnlgb0R9RFq6S/xRoykqD8cQk 4YXITA3ETigorE/7FkWOxJikfr120zTc3ooE5wWlCFLDk6UB5Gamf3US2Em5z1ekBks5 rkI6NQlm2otANCN1zHJH5J2fwaSQWDZPJwpx1qaaKhU7Ey1RvnSKbCDdgWPyfguSpc3s stWNnw6hoMujYLswVO/3ToX7Lu2vBLIKEe28O5ADNAYPC85+IeTrGKgz3QI396VSX9Xx uvr+dOADDrSRENK7lwLo49tDds+Lg5N6iXdDLQc6ud3AxU/yJ1eE3azt2cPb6gCbXYtr 6WwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1713367016; x=1713971816; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=aAmu42WJwZ8LiA1BBCzcnDZH0xmvESdUPHslRx+5thY=; b=KBHz1YaaGomsFVy9QH1+miC7RET2piu0on6T0LLsG+1nqC5AAOH1KNv/0scwvL1xoa YQB7wTUYj+1G2Xhv8gjqG1+LPF15KRYtm7dVGcErN52IqlKWD5+e/+TofYKF9Ni3rV1i 6SqQ0g6UKkWTf6I7+vY1fEjItwQ9gotlGiNjyREAzEW1VCCl/ZkIuAyKINRDdPVv70ph 3GYvRSryJXkz1TSjwxqhfzg6iRMrb+rSGF3k/KE0lzdSw+l0oeS7G53Wgew3uOmh7GZs 9p2L9NCQOhlHUIxMFDq1Csjlnv1vCfe0fWTIseSkoJJ2b/vwHkHHarLC/Vw7qR70KJSC EMKg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx0xpLBdvK3N+GOJ0ovgORCWNTrJe/1nvmSyptZHRSk/E4EWa7g lbrWLH8s30QGENeqRiLrqvoP4XM/L5RlEMM+deBgR6rWCEiGmZOR X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHL9sRG9Zo4ZplgOw5ZzVE95/ibP+B9qcXkjSC3EI0DVxuVFPHpRmvJlx/enq8PRT2XeWO2eQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:663:b0:78d:63d5:7325 with SMTP id a3-20020a05620a066300b0078d63d57325mr18105597qkh.43.1713367016518; Wed, 17 Apr 2024 08:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from t530.local ([2600:8806:a801:d4c0:1bb4:1840:c99c:2b9d]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bk9-20020a05620a1a0900b0078bea498e18sm8497440qkb.22.2024.04.17.08.16.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 17 Apr 2024 08:16:55 -0700 (PDT) From: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation" description. In-Reply-To: <86mspujupa.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 15 Apr 2024 22:24:01 +0300") References: <87bk6ao3cy.fsf@HIDDEN> <86mspujupa.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2024 11:16:54 -0400 Message-ID: <87le5caujd.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70402 Cc: 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> From: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN> >> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400 >>=20 >>=20 >> The final sentence in this paragraph says that >> =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 cannot be set via Customize,= but it is >> possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize. Type the >> following: >>=20 >> M-x customize-option RET >> Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET >>=20 >> After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At >> Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should >> not be possible. > > I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that > customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it > must be set before reading the init file. If I understand you correctly, then there are two reasons, rather than one, for why the variable =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 shoul= d not be an (customizable) option: 1. Because the Emacs user manual says that it cannot be set (it can). 2. Because setting the variable via =E2=80=98customize-option=E2=80=99 has = no effect (it happens too late in the initialization sequence?). If the user manual says that "something" cannot be done and doing so anyway would have no effect, then it should not be possible to do that "something." --=20 The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. - Geoffrey Chaucer, The Parliament of Birds.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70402; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 70402) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Apr 2024 19:24:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 15 15:24:26 2024 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39126 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1rwRwG-0005HV-Tv for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:24:26 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39424) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1rwRwE-0005GQ-Cz for 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:24:23 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1rwRvx-0007pH-6t; Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:24:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=Ix/F1SUY0dUA/AUIGRMdsxCn0MREvnLdQcwP6xcKRnc=; b=T8QX5YkTB7C9rcwS1Q/D QaPod3Z1avzpqMaTK78np9UTORDvG0X1hiN5XgiK4PvHJAUfLgTB4+aZjHaUW4P8VGkOp1LE7POVK AA5qvhnKgnXyZATIQsMWcju26fI1Seyl0eTaffcbGxocsNSwqBkbz4Gu37WHRjIKvp3r8eAJavuvu 1TL7vHFfrXJ6S5ZRwp1U14+ShE3Oqbc+gB5uwwdnwZs5EsgNgr2J8O574Q7QddRcZ7wNV1kf3I9I/ /10VTzrHBdwUxH1yZSueYRM8h6gpUUYz6viEAsYcYOD9Hx1PiDUhb24IQgurFkKEG8R+0AR8tDUyG 87pHOp6qUIjGNA==; Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 22:24:01 +0300 Message-Id: <86mspujupa.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87bk6ao3cy.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from tpeplt on Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400) Subject: Re: bug#70402: 29.3; Error in "(emacs)Package Installation" description. References: <87bk6ao3cy.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 70402 Cc: 70402 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN> > Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400 > > In the Info node for the Emacs user manual "(emacs) Package > Installation", there is the following paragraph: > > "To keep Emacs from automatically making packages available at > startup, change the variable ‘package-enable-at-startup’ to ‘nil’. You > must do this in the early init file, as the variable is read before > loading the regular init file. Currently this variable cannot be set > via Customize." > > The final sentence in this paragraph says that > ‘package-enable-at-startup’ cannot be set via Customize, but it is > possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize. Type the > following: > > M-x customize-option RET > Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET > > After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At > Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should > not be possible. I think you misunderstand what the manual attempts to convey: that customizing this variable will not have the desired effect, because it must be set before reading the init file.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70402; Package emacs.
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Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2024 15:03:25 -0400 Message-ID: <87bk6ao3cy.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f; envelope-from=tpeplt@HIDDEN; helo=mail-ot1-x32f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) In the Info node for the Emacs user manual "(emacs) Package Installation", there is the following paragraph: "To keep Emacs from automatically making packages available at startup, change the variable =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 to= =E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99. You must do this in the early init file, as the variable is read before loading the regular init file. Currently this variable cannot be set via Customize." The final sentence in this paragraph says that =E2=80=98package-enable-at-startup=E2=80=99 cannot be set via Customize, bu= t it is possible in Emacs 29.3 to set that variable via Customize. Type the following: M-x customize-option RET Customize variable: package-enable-at-startup RET After this sequence, the buffer "*Customize Option: Package Enable At Startup*" is displayed, which according to the Emacs user manual should not be possible. --=20 The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. - Geoffrey Chaucer, The Parliament of Birds.
tpeplt <tpeplt@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#70402; Package emacs.
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