Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 May 2021 10:44:40 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun May 02 06:44:40 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42135 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ld9aa-0003ef-2V for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 06:44:40 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f175.google.com ([209.85.214.175]:40957) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1ld9aY-0003eQ-KU for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 06:44:38 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f175.google.com with SMTP id n16so1219853plf.7 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 02 May 2021 03:44:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jXV8TjVDylUa+kqvkxBuRXc1PNiTJ1zjhHrWtEAlioM=; b=BU2m9xAijBct23OyD4Fz3ScjMutMNUdN5ETphDvXb9qoZ0uZ5vx28xL0BMteVqItq5 yE9UyPmEtAYp+VegLGtTbgUC3OqBR5SxTIgMYbGEO+jrFM0TCZixpN40AQhfn3qrmB9g 0LBukDYs1ym4IcuYBelj6D/SGEXs/9Dwn9e3pYeYIFmX/KtYPa1TP6UvsnvqnJnUZx67 80TX1eEer9KXdT/eiqZsuPeTeEu/IBXSZxKWBQI4EhjKQvKT3Uoy9sGmGBk4jxT9i582 c5aYnAmMPgY5Czn+VSEfjlUKkDHBTQb3GEvtRVeTTj9fWEnrXE2BK3YhHbX/5/jDjLo7 PeRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5300s6D0aYmp0lNzi8C0U0M24RlzF+eNgPzYHJP+4jVG1uKlNtGp lJ7L9lVl/s5CluIc+o9fMK5qxu7mwkPZun7J3TQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzdPkySr4IYH7dO9TKVExrbDf+CM+lXqHHMmN3jo5OTxzWubIiNQZs8soinL6SUkRBissVjeAOqLUzB+zLUwVc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:ecc5:b029:ee:cb82:fbc6 with SMTP id a5-20020a170902ecc5b02900eecb82fbc6mr2768340plh.70.1619952272722; Sun, 02 May 2021 03:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 2 May 2021 05:44:32 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvk0oi4jns.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <SA2PR10MB4474CC87B7760A57A86007FCF35F9@HIDDEN> <4edb1435264f2530594d@HIDDEN> <jwvk0oi4jns.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 05:44:32 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmm=dPGEV-ff_SQ_eN3DwU+naDa5xkGwBgO1G_HPq6b_-g@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > [ When I saw that complaint, it rang quite right to me; I thought "yeah, > of course the error message should be visible during the flash, just > as is the case with the GNU/Linux visual-bell I use and love", and > then I hit `C-g` and saw that the message only appears after the > flashing ;-) ] Good catch! Sorry for introducing the confusion. But at least we identified something we could improve, I guess... (FWIW, I think I pressed `C-g C-g', in which case you can actually read "Quit" while it is flashing. ;-))
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2021 16:55:59 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 01 12:55:59 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37296 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcsuM-0001K8-UL for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 12:55:59 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:33122) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcsuK-0001K2-T4 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 12:55:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619888155; bh=rLXgweO70RjzBXW0jQHQU4MrRxGexoWOunB1HuwlahI=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=tYiJUWnE2KyYtD87evS+nSlHY5CPoIA3BmbcGwkHSnBsvs5W39eS9Udw4UG7L1LTo df/RUQhxKyWJQwvAkPsOodopcadq94HF2lumo2cBL5KMrXiQN97FmZxz65YYAb0KIx bEdLISh6S/Go+dkOIURu2g4SAh8Itu1/30qcKSE+6WMiBIxwzSfAB3GrfqGvYKxIoO w0XaAZjNj/B/Po6z3QG+EoaxfMjXGPL7vv5SWLlVzbaogzeDnaJfmliSop9vy30ZAr yBX0HLmDfBpJybq/l9/nQ9NFPyxvdGBXNlEQXYRbpEVlB1Qcuj9fkODMROgtC+FVBc RNKUbHy3ZlTaA== Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 16:55:55 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#1305: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <SA2PR10MB44745F7BC98D858ED545A364F35D9@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <4edb1435263f6220bcd8@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <SA2PR10MB4474CC87B7760A57A86007FCF35F9@HIDDEN> <4edb1435264f2530594d@HIDDEN> <SA2PR10MB44745F7BC98D858ED545A364F35D9@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Have the passive voicers actually tried it? > Yes, and I tried it, too, and after trying a solution where you have to wait and another where you don't have to wait I agree that this slight delay is a bit annoying. As I just said to Stefan M, my feeling is that this delay is more annoying when flashing with a background color instead of flashing with an inverse video effect. > > In that case, change the default to 0.02 sec or whatever the passive > voices consider optimal. > The flash can't be too short, otherwise it isn't visible anymore... > > What's needed - regardless of what default behavior is chosen, is a > simple way for users to customize things. > It's already there, and it's already used: ring-bell-function. What is (if I'm not mistaken) discussed in this thread is what a better default would be / whether another default behavior would be better.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2021 16:48:55 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 01 12:48:55 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37247 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcsnW-0001Dp-UL for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 12:48:55 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:33096) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcsnU-0001Dj-VH for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 12:48:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619887731; bh=WJbdHufmq12aVyjbbYB8XkE5lJNz4rusg4uNrBs3jEY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=PpQwUW3YHuEuTdKLiZf4yzZJGn7IlZQ4qt5VbY5Qf75mzNDqX7Wdqp/J/yvZDvHHU FYkZS1NbpcvyTittC7D/QgaAs6XOaokfS79E26JOd2R89eu5OXbr3wYC6t2YFRBeE9 vwDxl7SsI9CgP9MOhzO3ru6ezM2PF056G21+VvCAnPCfIgPsFjtQh3TW73uQ6UaD3U SqeSz759jeQ50sqR3PQDAllTN6OJtfkrkilgclG9pqgLJ7Qp46diwqyBl4hfOScN57 I0dv4Yw0WwH35ggbXqj4pPcVzMuSJbkyI4kYQxx4aSLa8FauKK2i9Oo4/U75ilOoPL qfuw2vulWM8Zw== Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 16:48:51 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <jwvk0oi4jns.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <4edb14352609adc24c52@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <SA2PR10MB4474CC87B7760A57A86007FCF35F9@HIDDEN> <4edb1435264f2530594d@HIDDEN> <jwvk0oi4jns.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> You may have seen earlier in this thread that having to wait for the >> end of the animation to see the error message is not considered >> optimal. > > That's the current behavior of `visual-bell` and I can't remember anyone > complaining about it. So maybe the complaint you refer to was due to a > slightly longer duration of the animation? > Ah yes, indeed! I don't know why I didn't see this when Stefan K made that objection. OTOH, now that I'm using the patch in which there is no such delay (except when 'ding' is used), I agree with him that it's better to see the error message immediately. Perhaps this delay is less visible, from a psychological viewpoint, with an inverse video flash? > > [ When I saw that complaint, it rang quite right to me; I thought "yeah, > of course the error message should be visible during the flash, just as > is the case with the GNU/Linux visual-bell I use and love", and then I > hit `C-g` and saw that the message only appears after the flashing ;-) ] > I'm reassured to see that I wasn't alone to err in the darkness of ignorance ;-)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps
should use visual bell instead
Message-ID: <jwvk0oi4jns.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN>
<f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 10:28:11 -0400
In-Reply-To: <4edb1435264f2530594d@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message
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Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>,
Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>,
"jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>,
Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>,
Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
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> You may have seen earlier in this thread that having to wait for the end of
> the animation to see the error message is not considered optimal.
That's the current behavior of `visual-bell` and I can't remember anyone
complaining about it. So maybe the complaint you refer to was due to
a slightly longer duration of the animation?
[ When I saw that complaint, it rang quite right to me; I thought "yeah,
of course the error message should be visible during the flash, just
as is the case with the GNU/Linux visual-bell I use and love", and
then I hit `C-g` and saw that the message only appears after the
flashing ;-) ]
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cd1a5633-a963-4091-0b6e-08d90cab4217 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 May 2021 14:13:13.7104 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: zbC7swESSJt9dAc9SW/2VMMDUPyCG9Rkb26YYmyr4D6ltivh0jYuraFzAeJoI41wBb1eF4zeX1QKSu7tROn5RQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2958 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9971 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2105010102 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 85Qu6r1Mpooh31oOo7fzncQNDvb5oIR8 X-Proofpoint-GUID: 85Qu6r1Mpooh31oOo7fzncQNDvb5oIR8 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9971 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2105010101 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > > What part of the `echo-bell' "animation" in the echo area didn't you > > like? >=20 > You may have seen earlier in this thread that having to wait for the > end of the animation to see the error message is not considered optimal. "is not considered": passive voice. Who doesn't consider it, and why? Have the passive voicers actually tried it? The default period to "wait" is 0.2 sec. Having to wait 0.2 sec is "not considered optimal" by default? Really? In that case, change the default to 0.02 sec or whatever the passive voices consider optimal. Seriously, this thread seems way overblown to me. All the talk of different platforms, animations... What's needed - regardless of what default behavior is chosen, is a simple way for users to customize things. I mentioned the kinds of things. And I mentioned that it's an additional advantage to have the indication be recorded in *Messages*. Provide that additional advantage and some ways for users to customize the behavior in various ways, and be sure to do it with Lisp, and you should get a usable, cross-platform feature. Then you can argue about the default behavior... It should be clear, I hope, that I don't really care what Emacs does in this regard, beyond thinking that things should be kept simple and flexible. I didn't write the initial code behind echo-bell (Miles Bader did), and I don't even use it! I just turn off sound, for the most part, and I don't need an alarm of any kind.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2021 07:50:16 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 01 03:50:16 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60212 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lckOG-0003Z1-CJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 03:50:16 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:60758) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lckOE-0003Yp-8g for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 03:50:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619855413; bh=yi6z5qZWZp8+riKy9PhAypGHYJTN/1hWFAOoBVdi414=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=S4VYaZWRNXWh/fT4+8mpmElOLMzKYPImtTudWxbKvsz8Z8Iiu/79NHdhFyIDOvJHY hWYRqybN7XibcQYQvcdtroclpcp6zr6gRr+zPtvPY5s/s/CNyBQ3iY9LDyBlHt1y1v zOVVyoyP7w1GzCJmIeW5ja2+RNHre4Tsy2DG3AFdD8X6Nv3uXOtJtcPmV+J+eBkFun fO2vsfHNzyxLAuVG2mh5N+A5X7nj9NpokBYUKI4pStlnRVq1tEhTe2jy1P7xYJujta GS633N4gD8S0B4JYZa06Y+MIZ+4iMUTQQJuOhMEYY50W/m/zU3QV9YheVQHt9Qbh16 n7K9mKXRODiHw== Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 07:50:13 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <SA2PR10MB4474CC87B7760A57A86007FCF35F9@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <4edb1435264f2530594d@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <SA2PR10MB4474CC87B7760A57A86007FCF35F9@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > What part of the `echo-bell' "animation" in the echo area didn't you > like? > You may have seen earlier in this thread that having to wait for the end of the animation to see the error message is not considered optimal.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2021 07:50:11 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat May 01 03:50:11 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60209 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lckOB-0003Yd-5g for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 03:50:11 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:60738) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lckO9-0003YT-KM for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 03:50:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619855408; bh=czl5qCFnoIrLldCSROJ7iAKabQO/vnrVZfN4QR8+SjM=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=Gmc8/G6bcfbUMRoV8qXKvSG82ZEqjAls85S02wPiMsmJ1z7E8dRqPa0hBbMvIDGKY U+qEnh0Mx92RIy7FM1U066bsqU1g/eqpZE1+sEwyi/t50I1slBwXPDvXpcJoP8SGvd O/yO3ElAMfiLsz89cVk/r31IEsNHRx8QMgR+Y+x+YeP4xG42kKS3x9zgIODGRpXiza S90RH44GgkEIr12C/SyAFvpJ5Y4Keh8+NDUCXzq/v6bah05EK9WxpImy+NSm8cSdKZ O0Z1yZh9NHO7OTLcANUdRZSdZRm12B3Q+9y0wkRCMB3vO4NshTpNugredCDJDoeRe0 q3YiTBvFxHing== Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 07:50:07 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <8758da3a-1f44-36ec-1c58-68683604945a@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <4edb143526e2dea27984@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432403b413cd1d3@HIDDEN> <e19b8fbc-b43d-6898-19ca-ab11f1652f05@HIDDEN> <4edb1435269b6cdaa9ff@HIDDEN> <8758da3a-1f44-36ec-1c58-68683604945a@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> And the fix used by the author of the issue, and agreed with by the one >> who suggested that "first proposed fix", is to turn visible-bell off. > > You said there's no evidence of this behavior having been used widely. > No. I said it is ugly. You said it isn't, and it is in your opinion "proven" enough to become the default on three platforms. I said I disagree with this, it is not used enough to be "proven" enough. The "evidence" you now presented show that a few hundred people are using it, which doesn't prove anything. Of course, it's there, so some use it. What I see is instead that there are various solutions available that implement a "better" visual bell, which shows that the default one isn't satisfactory.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Sat, 1 May 2021 02:05:19 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#1305: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Topic: bug#1305: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Index: AQHXPiaGu9e/OAaR+0qvaf04qnUVM6rN4A6g Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 02:05:19 +0000 Message-ID: <SA2PR10MB44742D144B82B5D20AB66628F35D9@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432403b413cd1d3@HIDDEN> <e19b8fbc-b43d-6898-19ca-ab11f1652f05@HIDDEN> <SA2PR10MB4474B5D2183142CD56EE5703F35D9@HIDDEN> <689883a4-a852-8efd-8b91-76c7adcc6e15@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <689883a4-a852-8efd-8b91-76c7adcc6e15@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yandex.ru; 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Fri, 30 Apr 2021 18:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id b20sm4704314wmj.3.2021.04.30.18.08.34 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 30 Apr 2021 18:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432403b413cd1d3@HIDDEN> <e19b8fbc-b43d-6898-19ca-ab11f1652f05@HIDDEN> <SA2PR10MB4474B5D2183142CD56EE5703F35D9@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <689883a4-a852-8efd-8b91-76c7adcc6e15@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 04:08:33 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <SA2PR10MB4474B5D2183142CD56EE5703F35D9@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 01.05.2021 03:05, Drew Adams wrote: > Users can easily control the duration of this > "flash", as well as its color. And they can > control what text, if any, is shown at the right > edge of the area. The default text is musical > note chars. BTW, this aquamarine looks a bit nicer than the yellow flash in Gregory's version, and I like that it's implemented solely in Elisp. (https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/echo-bell.el) Still not sure if that is the behavior we want to provide OOTB (no Atom or VSCode-level of "slickness" in there), but why not ask people.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2021 00:57:48 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 20:57:48 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60074 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcdx6-0007pu-Ex for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:57:48 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f46.google.com ([209.85.128.46]:54872) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lcdx5-0007pi-Or for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:57:48 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f46.google.com with SMTP id k128so15614wmk.4 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:57:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=k2GaEYfxNRzf6lKSXr0u0044Me1ChZr8wTiBL1obT9M=; 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Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id l25sm4322133wmi.17.2021.04.30.17.57.40 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432403b413cd1d3@HIDDEN> <e19b8fbc-b43d-6898-19ca-ab11f1652f05@HIDDEN> <4edb1435269b6cdaa9ff@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <8758da3a-1f44-36ec-1c58-68683604945a@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 03:57:38 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4edb1435269b6cdaa9ff@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 01.05.2021 03:00, Gregory Heytings wrote: > And the fix used by the author of the issue, and agreed with by the one > who suggested that "first proposed fix", is to turn visible-bell off. You said there's no evidence of this behavior having been used widely. I presented such evidence. The rest is minor details (one report with 2 participants, compared to 800 stars, or 3K stars for the previous version of that starter kit). > Anyway, I fear this discussion will never end. I proposed a patch, I'd > suggest you propose another one that does what you think would be TRT. At this point I'm starting to wonder whether (setq ring-bell-function #'ignore) would not be a good compromise, after all. A poll could provide some better data, though.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Sat, 1 May 2021 00:05:19 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Index: AQHXPhiSU8gXuQXOIUm0DU5ELK4Wj6rNvBbg Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 00:05:19 +0000 Message-ID: <SA2PR10MB4474B5D2183142CD56EE5703F35D9@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432403b413cd1d3@HIDDEN> <e19b8fbc-b43d-6898-19ca-ab11f1652f05@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <e19b8fbc-b43d-6898-19ca-ab11f1652f05@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yandex.ru; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9d4bbe60-78f3-4566-1769-08d90c34ceb4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 May 2021 00:05:19.4501 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: OHpjyIy4DJBrX/a+QeBho0d7DW2Fjc99oJhf7BTCZISh2+7q6tfEamzu0Ubsm12F3s4ZD6GTy7/DDgu7MZLryQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB3071 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9970 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=646 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104300172 X-Proofpoint-GUID: sfZOBR4V62SLHPl-aD-eVmz_1nqIFzq2 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: sfZOBR4V62SLHPl-aD-eVmz_1nqIFzq2 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9970 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=952 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104300172 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) PiA+IE1vdmluZz8/P8KgIFdoeSBkbyB5b3UgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyB3b3VsZCBiZSBiZXR0ZXINCj4g PiB0aGFuIHNpbXBseSBibGlua2luZyB0aGUgZWNobyBhcmVhPw0KPiANCj4gIkJsaW5raW5nIiBp cyBhbHNvIG1vdmVtZW50LiBJIGRvbid0IGhhdmUgYSBzcGVjaWZpYw0KPiBhbmltYXRpb24gaW4g bWluZC4NCg0KIkJsaW5raW5nIiBpcyB0aGUgImFuaW1hdGlvbiIgcHJvdmlkZWQgYnkNCmBlY2hv LWJlbGwtbW9kZScgKHlvdSBhc2tlZCBmb3IgdGhhdCk6IHRoZSBlY2hvDQphcmVhIGlzIGJyaWVm bHkgaGlnaGxpZ2h0ZWQgd2l0aCBhIGRpZmZlcmVudA0KYmFja2dyb3VuZC4NCg0KVXNlcnMgY2Fu IGVhc2lseSBjb250cm9sIHRoZSBkdXJhdGlvbiBvZiB0aGlzDQoiZmxhc2giLCBhcyB3ZWxsIGFz IGl0cyBjb2xvci4gIEFuZCB0aGV5IGNhbg0KY29udHJvbCB3aGF0IHRleHQsIGlmIGFueSwgaXMg c2hvd24gYXQgdGhlIHJpZ2h0DQplZGdlIG9mIHRoZSBhcmVhLiAgVGhlIGRlZmF1bHQgdGV4dCBp cyBtdXNpY2FsDQpub3RlIGNoYXJzLg0KDQpEaWZmZXJlbnQgYmVoYXZpb3IgJiBhcHBlYXJhbmNl IGFyZSBhcHByZWNpYXRlZA0KZGlmZmVyZW50bHkgYnkgZGlmZmVyZW50IHVzZXJzLiAgT25lIHVz ZXIncw0KdmFsdWVkIGluZGljYXRpb24gaXMgYW5vdGhlcidzIGFubm95YW5jZS4gIFRoaXMNCnNp bXBsZSBtb2RlIGxldHMgeW91IGVhc2lseSBoYXZlIG5vIGluZGljYXRpb24NCihtb2RlIG9mZikg b3IgYW55IGRlZ3JlZSBvZiBpbnRlcnJ1cHRpb24geW91DQptaWdodCB3YW50Lg0K
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 May 2021 00:00:48 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 20:00:48 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60047 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcd3w-0006TH-5Z for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:00:48 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:60322) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcd3u-0006T8-Ew for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:00:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619827245; bh=7cyq2iAOW3HpTjVEy/3HWmcKXCs++i++RUj+cltjNp8=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=dDPGZJF966g2P73HaOkdTI/mpxI5wASkFBsB6a9sEsP4dH57SswOjKX1vn64Umta4 H+ILXTCxXa1s/J4nTjHLY3Tmsj9mddyKP0L8X65pJNkepEVL2t7IHsIyFhrp13l5g4 G4cdYJd1AfK6FtFV44FIcHZZYeQ3pr1tAzmZJcLCatLIMWNNPDs7fwlLgg9XgM5Z9E 60eZsPpzyYTh8ySb68CShkttlmNZ8zMivTFsIqpIZS/Ej4Adc+EnKcDxmjNfjWfo/R oDT06Gypqv+9IewBKSSU3sHMdJZQbJZ5b7ZP2ADqNQCPeaq09v8yFQaAlCQfcPyIW0 CeVFvK0l4at7Q== Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 00:00:44 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <e19b8fbc-b43d-6898-19ca-ab11f1652f05@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <4edb1435269b6cdaa9ff@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432403b413cd1d3@HIDDEN> <e19b8fbc-b43d-6898-19ca-ab11f1652f05@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Have you read the comments? > Of course I did. > > People complain about macOS behavior, and the first proposed "fix" was > to make it work close to how it works on GNU/Linux (except flashing the > mode-line, probably because that is easier to implement). > And the fix used by the author of the issue, and agreed with by the one who suggested that "first proposed fix", is to turn visible-bell off. Anyway, I fear this discussion will never end. I proposed a patch, I'd suggest you propose another one that does what you think would be TRT.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Fri, 30 Apr 2021 16:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f25sm4069069wrd.67.2021.04.30.16.28.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 30 Apr 2021 16:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432403b413cd1d3@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <e19b8fbc-b43d-6898-19ca-ab11f1652f05@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 02:28:49 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <cc0d8432403b413cd1d3@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 01.05.2021 02:19, Gregory Heytings wrote: > Amusingly, it's the only "better default" that isn't described in the > README, and against which there's a open issue: > https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults/issues/27 . Have you read the comments? People complain about macOS behavior, and the first proposed "fix" was to make it work close to how it works on GNU/Linux (except flashing the mode-line, probably because that is easier to implement). Hence the reply: "that's strange; the behavior you describe is how it already works for me". >> A moving reddish shape should bring enough attention, but of course >> different users have different levels of sensitivity (as the >> discussion in bug#47574 has shown). Only a practical experiment can tell. >> > > Moving??? Why do you think this would be better than simply blinking > the echo area? "Blinking" is also movement. I don't have a specific animation in mind.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 23:19:25 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 19:19:25 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59998 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lccPt-0005TW-A6 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 19:19:25 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:60284) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lccPq-0005TN-SX for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 19:19:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619824761; bh=GqHL/2ew9itzBo7nVCyL+KCxDczLAlvSHwV3kU1HATY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=NhgFZXTMzTmwhrHRQArx6e+joAeby+uIR4Mx6LCThmZUBRI8cFFAxs56b/4Uiai4Q zeJHrOTcg3CSZfqVLraQh7AisJ/BLXdd9WihOO4CH2KkcNi8PhSCRIx0wBGPGtEXL6 CCP/N4F5gNcXwC8Hmfkqs/kT5+dRjdXvCKRliuLOp3smq1qRfxafzoYj5zRpJoC8vy fUiX7Dv2RG/rD5Z0XZx2siLP6eBiotPgoIICr8O2XwNMpA4+lTzT/53RPdmJg8OOqH MSZLMMLhUKSd75pDMAaGv8EMcZxmxZk8nFz1jSa57nFmJfQ+vWdla6j/fYRpxwusGA ANGJtmeqKTJhw== Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 23:19:20 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cc0d8432403b413cd1d3@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> And AFAICS this is also what most popular starter kits do. So at least >> to me it's not clear whether it is widely used. > > better-defaults is an old project which has been there for at least a > decade in some form (and has a fair amount of stars on its archived > repository on github: https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults). > It's the original "emacs starter kit". > Amusingly, it's the only "better default" that isn't described in the README, and against which there's a open issue: https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults/issues/27 . > > A moving reddish shape should bring enough attention, but of course > different users have different levels of sensitivity (as the discussion > in bug#47574 has shown). Only a practical experiment can tell. > Moving??? Why do you think this would be better than simply blinking the echo area?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Fri, 30 Apr 2021 15:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id q16sm4023242wmj.24.2021.04.30.15.22.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 30 Apr 2021 15:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <f78089b4-582f-1a1a-d7ee-66255b9d70a2@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 1 May 2021 01:22:24 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 30.04.2021 10:09, Gregory Heytings wrote: > And AFAICS this is also what most popular starter kits do. So at least > to me it's not clear whether it is widely used. better-defaults is an old project which has been there for at least a decade in some form (and has a fair amount of stars on its archived repository on github: https://github.com/technomancy/better-defaults). It's the original "emacs starter kit". So yes, it must be widely used. >> But it would be interesting to try some icon-based animation in the >> echo area, like the red circle on VSCode's pic. >> > > You mean, displaying such a red circle before the error message in the > echo area? Not sure that would be visible enough. Something like that, with a blinking or some brief "busy" animation. A moving reddish shape should bring enough attention, but of course different users have different levels of sensitivity (as the discussion in bug#47574 has shown). Only a practical experiment can tell.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 13:08:25 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 09:08:25 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57780 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcSsb-00009S-7w for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 09:08:25 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:59458) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcSsZ-00009J-GH for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 09:08:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619788101; bh=t0DQNPGz2C4+Qg0S35DrT3WV+ZxDTHaAxSKUI7vgO/Y=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=c4M2WtculyxG0FmE9K/MwtvnYyACJZFciNRJKu+pCMXd7NsVo5h0XUEX3C4NQX8+V qkK/dT5ELEv8TtYfRIZ/YhRC+wdTQ7fOuo+pQBQfEBv3kpMEgcMjzxLD+relHHrdPi uzuM4+OiSGS0/isdFBZnXRztb5SF3SGcZwR0d023pwH8KIWbE26IvRzkm/GjsKeNOL Xunw1cLm31+UYhy6sDtuzIaHJwXVhNtOFZEJMLVQMwZ8V20AcDP8vZkLE5/n1fPZqd 2i6E8r3i8gFYgrMLOh0tkg/JaoAQ/z8VVGjxXp2L2EipridevhmXDImW7yIJ36Ltqq 4OgbubVF6ysQA== Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 13:08:21 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <cc0d8432400c094d5bda@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cc0d843240dfe243d8e5@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnxUoBU4opydF0KUNnu87DhZ67b4iYOFFpYTqsdoKGbBw@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432400c094d5bda@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="VdKKdMTAsF" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --VdKKdMTAsF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>>> I can't really say whether it's better or worse, with visible-bell t= =20 >>>> on Windows the frame briefly flashes (with the FlashWindow function),= =20 >>>> a bit like a flash in a terminal.=C2=A0 Among the three visible-bell t= =20 >>>> behaviors, it's the best one IMO, in the sense that it's visible and= =20 >>>> not intrusive. >>>=20 >>> Is it possible to replicate on other systems? >>=20 >> It would be useful if someone could post a screenshot for those of us=20 >> with no access to any Windows machines. > > I tried to do that, but it's not possible, it's a dynamic effect. > I tried again; see the attached screencast. --VdKKdMTAsF Content-Type: video/mp4; name=windows.mp4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <cc0d8432402e21270a0e@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=windows.mp4 AAAAIGZ0eXBpc29tAAACAGlzb21pc28yYXZjMW1wNDEAAAAIZnJlZQAA3d1t ZGF0AAACrgYF//+q3EXpvebZSLeWLNgg2SPu73gyNjQgLSBjb3JlIDE2MCBy MzAxMSBjZGU5YTkzIC0gSC4yNjQvTVBFRy00IEFWQyBjb2RlYyAtIENvcHls ZWZ0IDIwMDMtMjAyMCAtIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cudmlkZW9sYW4ub3JnL3gyNjQu aHRtbCAtIG9wdGlvbnM6IGNhYmFjPTEgcmVmPTMgZGVibG9jaz0xOjA6MCBh bmFseXNlPTB4MzoweDExMyBtZT1oZXggc3VibWU9NyBwc3k9MSBwc3lfcmQ9 MS4wMDowLjAwIG1peGVkX3JlZj0xIG1lX3JhbmdlPTE2IGNocm9tYV9tZT0x IHRyZWxsaXM9MSA4eDhkY3Q9MSBjcW09MCBkZWFkem9uZT0yMSwxMSBmYXN0 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 08:41:38 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 04:41:38 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57450 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcOiQ-0005f3-Dc for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:41:38 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:59180) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcOiN-0005et-N5 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:41:36 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619772094; bh=V4ojq0ShMf2osY09/JaTMkqVIBkjQCMRH4ZXZo7VYaw=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=mcBpnukV1tSF+COZRiEwR+AjEbTCEn4VlD2uaXs4oM10B5+NXTH9eOk9DVsGExFQN iE0Lon7+NGlZN3CUbI+J9fa4OMEKeYfrR3GD2kPUSeVKR7I3ud1AjemMp2cxXnKkn7 HHap65j6JMZs2QyAEl0hvDejyMe8FV+GyG7/s+fE2K4WCBBy73ZID/c6ndpaw5w7A4 +VQEI9kyVLPoHkB+4FkpGP8bQ/D2KSgQRQETPJvUD8WT4c52FNU7dgD6LabRmTXeAc QbTMcqNAN90KhTQxY+5LXlNUxwsoyNReUqKD/EDH/FUzZJdoafSXI5At6WLl8ZEMe1 UD4CXEuaNWZpQ== Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 08:41:33 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <837dkkci6w.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cc0d84324035c7d87b5d@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <83k0okcqgg.fsf@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432400c219d3dfc@HIDDEN> <83h7jockv2.fsf@HIDDEN> <cc0d843240f30f9d2f8b@HIDDEN> <837dkkci6w.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: alan@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, dgutov@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> "Flashing a window means changing the appearance of its caption bar as >> if the window were changing from inactive to active status, or vice >> versa. [...] Typically, a window is flashed to inform the user that the >> window requires attention but that it does not currently have the >> keyboard focus." [1] >> >> [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winuser/nf-winuser-flashwindow >> >> But even that doesn't describe the effect accurately, the feeling I >> have is closer to "the frame briefly vibrates". As I said, I use >> Windows only rarely, so my feeling is perhaps not right. > > What I see is exactly what the MS documentation describes: the frame's > title bar blinks (a.k.a. "flickers"), which is very hard to notice; and > the corresponding tab on the task bar flashes, which is much more > prominent. IME, this happens in all Windows versions. > What I see on Windows 10 (without any customizations) is that the title bar flickers, the menu bar flickers, and the shadow effect around the frame flickers. All this gives the feeling that the frame "vibrates". And yes, the corresponding tab (on Windows 10 the default is an icon) flashes, its background color changes. Indeed this is more prominent, the purpose of FlashWindow seems to be, as the documentation describes, "to inform the user that the window requires attention but that it does not currently have the keyboard focus", or IOW to inform the user that a window that it isn't the foreground window requires attention.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 08:04:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 04:04:23 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57418 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcO8G-0004nu-5g for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:04:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54098) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lcO8C-0004nf-Ud for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:04:14 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58822) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lcO84-00065v-TE; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:04:04 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1404 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lcO7z-0003mg-Ic; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 04:04:03 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:03:51 +0300 Message-Id: <837dkkci6w.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <cc0d843240f30f9d2f8b@HIDDEN> (message from Gregory Heytings on Fri, 30 Apr 2021 07:27:25 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <83k0okcqgg.fsf@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432400c219d3dfc@HIDDEN> <83h7jockv2.fsf@HIDDEN> <cc0d843240f30f9d2f8b@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: alan@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, dgutov@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 07:27:25 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> > cc: dgutov@HIDDEN, alan@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, > stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, > larsi@HIDDEN > > "Flashing a window means changing the appearance of its caption bar as if > the window were changing from inactive to active status, or vice versa. > [...] Typically, a window is flashed to inform the user that the window > requires attention but that it does not currently have the keyboard > focus." [1] > > [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winuser/nf-winuser-flashwindow > > But even that doesn't describe the effect accurately, the feeling I have > is closer to "the frame briefly vibrates". As I said, I use Windows only > rarely, so my feeling is perhaps not right. What I see is exactly what the MS documentation describes: the frame's title bar blinks (a.k.a. "flickers"), which is very hard to notice; and the corresponding tab on the task bar flashes, which is much more prominent. IME, this happens in all Windows versions.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 07:27:28 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 03:27:28 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57383 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcNYe-0003ti-Ld for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:27:28 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:59092) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcNYc-0003ta-Rn for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:27:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619767645; bh=4PRx2v9WK4Lg07s8bmMcr6EweE8JWot0BxbTptvamOQ=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=nAleuYr87pL6AHVuBfHpmYU+wSmtGxJu17CckMeGqh3X1Xw8CSTDhQuSAYB2YRN9n iw1AgEQxz91RIRkXXRVvb1dTBQLcSL+m1gZKOsW6G9FCdIuGFvc9ppRwFklIqtXe26 B9yqzl6+l4yW4ZZYwHRJg1TI6IMl7kX3iDxvVZMBxILOpyMUZfuJSbwTUN0hb1RhnL LhULxnUALW1MNVhceyrahQRQYA6Z353fq59MlxijePWtBDfkAjWzUH7mMu33QoKmvu bHqSn/tlB3+EfsFCyfqs2Y+hS/DgHVGCe6ftS6G3CD/yolaJR5aQHtFDG4R6gpx0lg FpTTOP/vioOfw== Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 07:27:25 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <83h7jockv2.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cc0d843240f30f9d2f8b@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <83k0okcqgg.fsf@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432400c219d3dfc@HIDDEN> <83h7jockv2.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: alan@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, dgutov@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> Yes, "flash" is perhaps not the best word here, perhaps "vibrate" is >> better. > > That word still doesn't tell me what you think happens. Can you > describe in more detail what exactly you see, and on which version of > MS-Windows? > Windows 10. I don't know how to describe this better than with the words "flash" or "vibrate", so I looked at the docs: "Flashing a window means changing the appearance of its caption bar as if the window were changing from inactive to active status, or vice versa. [...] Typically, a window is flashed to inform the user that the window requires attention but that it does not currently have the keyboard focus." [1] [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/winuser/nf-winuser-flashwindow But even that doesn't describe the effect accurately, the feeling I have is closer to "the frame briefly vibrates". As I said, I use Windows only rarely, so my feeling is perhaps not right.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 07:13:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 03:13:26 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57364 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcNL4-0003Y1-M7 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:13:26 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:59058) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcNL2-0003Xt-Kd for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:13:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619766804; bh=ozTw7LOF2YyNOwvpaA8O4DnyRLtoUnPo3OgHZD7fKHY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=gIXw3bbpiZZA56J5Bm/Q3pM4WUhS/gJ6MHsuDlShkw50e/7gU9jCEZApZlMlHsu6K K5+pBpiGv4GmkpyfqxdBv+p8LtkT8rQZrFqmeEbAJpvcfX+pgE2fD1KskEaNCnfM9m DjYzpYXKQm0gif2PM1LnHgW9nT6NIuqxnSWM/F0bazFzoDol1U42VwEHMn6xIFsxqV QwYc0GkKTU/03E8oaGB7oeZ+OuPJEQiXK/ineKy1RWmtMfT/6ac1cdpt4nfmeGazsl XuX5+zspiagrgwMWmzrHbpuJuJRHvlHiNcXSikk6oWDaWPdas9lRpKKoLqzrzk2Tmy Rga6RfGRfpARA== Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 07:13:23 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <jwv5z04d5xv.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cc0d8432403ef67e5777@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <jwv5z04d5xv.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> AFAICS in other editors error signals are far less frequent (e.g. they >> do nothing when you try to move past the beginning or end of the >> buffer, or when you press a key binding with no corresponding action, >> or when you enter characters in a read-only file, ...), they only >> signal "critical" errors. So I'm not sure it's possible to get >> inspired by what they do. What they use are typically popups; I attach >> two examples with Visual Studio and Atom, one when a non-readable file >> is opened, another when a non-writable file is saved. > > This suggests we may want to introduce "levels" of beeping. We generally > follow the convention that a command should do *something* so if the > command cannot do what the user asked because it is "obviously" > non-sensical (e.g. try to move before the beginning or past the end of > the buffer, type a key that's not bound, ...) we'd emit a "low-priority" > beep, whereas in case of an actual error we'd emit a higher priority > beep. We probably don't need many levels, (e.g. just 2, at most 3 might > be enough). > Indeed. You may have seen that this is what my patch does, except that instead of hard-coding the error levels, it lets each user decide which errors they want to see with a flashing effect and which errors they want to see without flashing effect.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 07:09:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 03:09:50 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57360 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcNHa-0003Sl-51 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:09:50 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:59028) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcNHX-0003Sa-BW for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:09:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619766586; bh=doPhvGIO1WqLd5G8vX5ZmUkPf/L5m3oGP/T30fZ1lK0=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=NTZ+k6rt8quPLZKzs5Zx7o6erzelRRgnC4vk9LwU4ouCQ5cfi1Ywsar44v2hXjA24 /54u9fp1GGQWJ3YSchmRcFozaqzzJ4Cnn4ruhbWWK98WlDzjIN1pkan90yziKsB5tA od1jTGKCV+iu6YdltZf4aWCNaDSNkuJNtu7KbFgkkJI03zKBMCLZfKYZv/7R90364T waw2E6qjztTvp31JE0qqkfoRkHhREe9ZzEeOoyYxXK0UG8wh8YC0Ntjmo7b2MVuxQI xAKlh3+lR13bvaDJ45TaodkenqcNX7+9r3wSUBiuXfwg1+o1++o5f19xQcrcpJR4cV B8Nt5Cf2srszg== Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 07:09:45 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cc0d8432402d3f235d8a@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="4etuyLLz2s" Content-ID: <cc0d843240cdd050039e@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --4etuyLLz2s Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-ID: <cc0d8432404c7db97b0f@HIDDEN> > > Fair enough. Still, it's more "proven" that yours, so to speak. > I don't know what you mean by "proven", but I never activated that visible= =20 bell before this discussion started, like Lars I just disabled the bell=20 altogether. And AFAICS this is also what most popular starter kits do.=20 So at least to me it's not clear whether it is widely used. > > I don't mind putting it to the vote sometime, here or some other place. > I'd be very surprised if people voted for that, but indeed a vote is=20 probably the best way to decide between the two. >> Using inverse-video also creates extra colors, unless your frame=20 >> happens to display only black on white or white on black elements on=20 >> the first and last line.=C2=A0 Moreover with my patch the colors are ful= ly=20 >> configurable, so you can adapt them to your theme. > > It uses only the colors that are already there, though. Just in inverse. > Which means "new colors". Of course from a logical viewpoint this is=20 "just in inverse", but flashing a brown on white text in green on black,=20 or a blue on white text in yellow on black, does create new colors that=20 weren't there. It's like photo negatives, the colors you see are not "the= =20 colors that were there". > > But it would be interesting to try some icon-based animation in the echo= =20 > area, like the red circle on VSCode's pic. > You mean, displaying such a red circle before the error message in the=20 echo area? Not sure that would be visible enough. --4etuyLLz2s--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 07:06:39 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 03:06:39 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57356 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcNEN-0003OG-2q for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:06:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43038) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lcNEL-0003O4-Ci for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:06:30 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58199) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lcNEE-0004y8-0F; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:06:22 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1853 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lcNEA-0000MP-PI; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:06:20 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 10:06:09 +0300 Message-Id: <83h7jockv2.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <cc0d8432400c219d3dfc@HIDDEN> (message from Gregory Heytings on Fri, 30 Apr 2021 06:51:47 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <83k0okcqgg.fsf@HIDDEN> <cc0d8432400c219d3dfc@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: alan@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, dgutov@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 06:51:47 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> > cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, alan@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, > monnier@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN > > > Just so we are on the same page: FlashWindow on MS-Windows doesn't > > necessarily flash the frame. Or maybe I don't understand what Gregory > > meant by that. > > Yes, "flash" is perhaps not the best word here, perhaps "vibrate" is > better. That word still doesn't tell me what you think happens. Can you describe in more detail what exactly you see, and on which version of MS-Windows? > And no, I don't think it is possible to replicate that behavior on other > systems, it's a "window manager" primitive, which AFAIU exists on Windows > but not on macOS or GNU/Linux. I think until now the idea was to abide by platform conventions in this matter. That's why we don't try to affect the audio bell, either: we let the system sound whatever sound was configured for that. From that POV, using platform-specific visual cues is perfectly fine, if such primitives exist. Where they don't exist, we need to emulate them, but that's another story. So: do such WM APIs exist on X, GTK, macOS, and other platforms we support? (If this was already discussed, apologies.)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 06:58:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 02:58:18 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57350 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcN6Q-0003BI-8f for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 02:58:18 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:58984) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcN6N-0003B8-MN for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 02:58:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619765894; bh=ZuHUXqo6sEGGHnllbvcn087qTgcpoE/jn4j655+/pc8=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=pzMAS47CV7HectygM60d1rrIuUzbCIGTh7FKY25RqwbaI4l4D23Lql0Tw9jVorLcF +29gsKPJOJxbt8LVonpIOCCh+pd2smeY+9lmf3i1yyuxBDj8mciwcpuXisQvXI9wz2 7niGYlDrKpFFOJKlaAcqjJEEZYJW165Zm8WMUbDk/R+Uf8DprqsNYmlBUBTt8xfip9 CiG4IUEPnjNr4+wuqPjPuX8Xv2dHZDyup7IiavECZHMyWzavQXcoQopyAnw5dug1rG wnsfAUCFwp9ifuumTd/wl8PLtNuv/blpzSS077tEjAoZ1/ZF/3KITw+I98/uIdESDN s5Fk6gPsLu8oQ== Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 06:58:13 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnxUoBU4opydF0KUNnu87DhZ67b4iYOFFpYTqsdoKGbBw@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cc0d8432400c094d5bda@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnxUoBU4opydF0KUNnu87DhZ67b4iYOFFpYTqsdoKGbBw@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="85Ktlqcbov" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --85Ktlqcbov Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> I can't really say whether it's better or worse, with visible-bell t=20 >>> on Windows the frame briefly flashes (with the FlashWindow function),= =20 >>> a bit like a flash in a terminal.=C2=A0 Among the three visible-bell t= =20 >>> behaviors, it's the best one IMO, in the sense that it's visible and=20 >>> not intrusive. >> >> Is it possible to replicate on other systems? > > It would be useful if someone could post a screenshot for those of us=20 > with no access to any Windows machines. > I tried to do that, but it's not possible, it's a dynamic effect. --85Ktlqcbov--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 06:51:52 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 02:51:52 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57335 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcN0C-00031M-Ha for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 02:51:52 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:58956) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcN09-00031C-DL for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 02:51:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619765508; bh=qW+qV5afbOExc4STAGsGVvnaBXzsf3EweHaMA83ya1M=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=mnzwEyOotli8hxgYNuEjLoVtqb1aql1QL23vGhoQ7RKbVBK2ZAIjTMXuphZaseSvA leXawXmx5F36Ux2PRH+gyvdqw1kA1lYZ5gK0wtC7Zk/hpgq/1T8OM7mKcGdDqIsfGj XYU3OF1NdhMkTcrMi6d85hcVodrp6Z7rUG8d1EIxWdb7hvdHr3804BKMzVM+a+2TKC VwR4EQizQtKYWTLwJbx5rNiAmVVwXmBFncDTUcMmEfWyew/5TLy8lHKJ1wxfdXgl9d XNoFGHZhrWOOILW7iQVqfpwheAHbo/TyOzjR+h6khwy0AzpE6qcMVMT2pIT1BJ49Is Sp197FoffcKaQ== Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 06:51:47 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <83k0okcqgg.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cc0d8432400c219d3dfc@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <83k0okcqgg.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="eVCfeIuizR" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: alan@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --eVCfeIuizR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> I can't really say whether it's better or worse, with visible-bell t=20 >>> on Windows the frame briefly flashes (with the FlashWindow function),= =20 >>> a bit like a flash in a terminal.=C2=A0 Among the three visible-bell t= =20 >>> behaviors, it's the best one IMO, in the sense that it's visible and=20 >>> not intrusive. >> >> Is it possible to replicate on other systems? > > Just so we are on the same page: FlashWindow on MS-Windows doesn't=20 > necessarily flash the frame. Or maybe I don't understand what Gregory=20 > meant by that. > Yes, "flash" is perhaps not the best word here, perhaps "vibrate" is=20 better. And no, I don't think it is possible to replicate that behavior on other=20 systems, it's a "window manager" primitive, which AFAIU exists on Windows= =20 but not on macOS or GNU/Linux. --eVCfeIuizR--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2021 05:05:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 30 01:05:46 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57262 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcLLQ-0000KB-CW for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 01:05:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54626) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lcLLN-0000Jx-Jy for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 01:05:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:56965) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lcLLE-0005rk-H2; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 01:05:29 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2445 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lcLLD-00069L-RF; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 01:05:28 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 08:05:19 +0300 Message-Id: <83k0okcqgg.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Thu, 29 Apr 2021 23:17:58 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: alan@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> > Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 23:17:58 +0300 > Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, > jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, > Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > > > I can't really say whether it's better or worse, with visible-bell t on > > Windows the frame briefly flashes (with the FlashWindow function), a bit > > like a flash in a terminal. Among the three visible-bell t behaviors, > > it's the best one IMO, in the sense that it's visible and not intrusive. > > Is it possible to replicate on other systems? Just so we are on the same page: FlashWindow on MS-Windows doesn't necessarily flash the frame. Or maybe I don't understand what Gregory meant by that.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2021 23:52:38 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 29 19:52:38 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57104 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcGSU-0001Ty-Lk for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 19:52:38 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f42.google.com ([209.85.128.42]:53948) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lcGSS-0001Tl-Fe for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 19:52:37 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f42.google.com with SMTP id s82so1785142wmf.3 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:52:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1+xQ04dWXx2wo5iuQRDTbdpUEUKOhdHGnBt0gJ+nYJc=; 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Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id x9sm190871wrt.13.2021.04.29.16.52.28 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> <SA2PR10MB4474CC87B7760A57A86007FCF35F9@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <5d25cd4f-7d50-867a-638e-f6fafc4edfd1@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 02:52:27 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <SA2PR10MB4474CC87B7760A57A86007FCF35F9@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 30.04.2021 02:35, Drew Adams wrote: > What part of the `echo-bell' "animation" in the echo > area didn't you like? Which animation?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
Message-ID: <jwv5z04d5xv.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN>
<YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN>
<a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN>
<f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 19:36:01 -0400
In-Reply-To: <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message
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> AFAICS in other editors error signals are far less frequent (e.g. they do
> nothing when you try to move past the beginning or end of the buffer, or
> when you press a key binding with no corresponding action, or when you
> enter characters in a read-only file, ...), they only signal "critical"
> errors. So I'm not sure it's possible to get inspired by what they
> do. What they use are typically popups; I attach two examples with Visual
> Studio and Atom, one when a non-readable file is opened, another when
> a non-writable file is saved.
This suggests we may want to introduce "levels" of beeping.
We generally follow the convention that a command should do *something*
so if the command cannot do what the user asked because it is
"obviously" non-sensical (e.g. try to move before the beginning or past
the end of the buffer, type a key that's not bound, ...) we'd emit
a "low-priority" beep, whereas in case of an actual error we'd emit
a higher priority beep. We probably don't need many levels, (e.g. just
2, at most 3 might be enough).
Not sure it's worth the trouble, since it could require a fair bit of
changes in a lot of code. But it would let users configure their Emacs
to be similarly "discrete" as the editors you describe.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Thu, 29 Apr 2021 23:35:15 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Index: AQHXPU64U8gXuQXOIUm0DU5ELK4Wj6rMJaUw Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 23:35:15 +0000 Message-ID: <SA2PR10MB4474CC87B7760A57A86007FCF35F9@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yandex.ru; 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id a15sm160365wrx.9.2021.04.29.16.23.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <3a17b49f-2a5c-42b6-4375-7544b67fd471@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 02:23:54 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 30.04.2021 00:46, Gregory Heytings wrote: > I know you like the current default on GNU/Linux, and it will remain > available. And what you like is not the default (you need to set > visible-bell in your init file), so from that point of view nothing > changes. Fair enough. Still, it's more "proven" that yours, so to speak. I don't mind putting it to the vote sometime, here or some other place. >>> Would you imagine such a behavior in Visual Studio, Sublime or Atom? >> >> Briefly flashing some UI elements in a neutral fashion, without extra >> colors that may look out of place? >> > > Using inverse-video also creates extra colors, unless your frame happens > to display only black on white or white on black elements on the first > and last line. Moreover with my patch the colors are fully > configurable, so you can adapt them to your theme. It uses only the colors that are already there, though. Just in inverse. Maybe it looks worse on some alternative themes, I have really only tried it with the default one, and themes that are similar enough to it. >> That's also why I asked whether somebody knows a corresponding UI >> element/animation in either of these editors we could, uh, "get >> inspired by". >> > > AFAICS in other editors error signals are far less frequent (e.g. they > do nothing when you try to move past the beginning or end of the buffer, > or when you press a key binding with no corresponding action, or when > you enter characters in a read-only file, ...), they only signal > "critical" errors. So I'm not sure it's possible to get inspired by > what they do. What they use are typically popups; I attach two examples > with Visual Studio and Atom, one when a non-readable file is opened, > another when a non-writable file is saved. Thanks for the screenshots. I do not consider the 'ding' to be a warning or error notification, though: I far more often see it after pressing C-g myself, not when something unexpected happens. Otherwise a yellow notification, Atom-style, would be more pertinent. But it would be interesting to try some icon-based animation in the echo area, like the red circle on VSCode's pic.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id e18sm80405wrc.85.2021.04.29.16.11.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnxUoBU4opydF0KUNnu87DhZ67b4iYOFFpYTqsdoKGbBw@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <687e1847-0ab7-8477-7748-dd36806616d2@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 02:11:44 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnxUoBU4opydF0KUNnu87DhZ67b4iYOFFpYTqsdoKGbBw@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 30.04.2021 01:38, Stefan Kangas wrote: > BTW, VSCode reasonably does not beep just because you reach the > beginning or end of the buffer, heh. Yep. > (BTW#2, I tried "searching" the Emacs sources [i.e. grepping] which made > the entire program freeze on me for half a minute. So we are not the > only ones who sometimes fail to be asynchronous enough.) At least we've learned to that faster ;-) > It would be useful if someone could post a screenshot for those of us > with no access to any Windows machines. +1
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2021 22:38:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 29 18:38:13 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57024 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcFIT-0003rz-6Y for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 18:38:13 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f173.google.com ([209.85.214.173]:33763) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lcFIR-0003rn-SV for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 18:38:12 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f173.google.com with SMTP id b21so7064984plz.0 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 15:38:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mb4xp4L/3vk+iHfehlDVG0Cc2msUjyiJnmu0Xe7qwmc=; b=IVgQDwexJQ5i+tt50AyZAnBrNDLcGCZ2F92SS9NgWotIXgJ8HodxcvdTudHeXRQj0B M+Wuxz8mBcmDRDG3W/TEioWjQB/RU/9LfEaFbBdd/O9XrtvZ4jay2EEK3bstB5ZzDoc3 uBuLplOcajgKR7vJp+BMvONm/RpgMDYWdyASpwGvw7DqvAFsnWUMiuqKNqdrS1uC35x1 NSbvyeCKHUud25QGs8aNjUY08dnJx/UrIGEQIUxnXlICMwETahdHmo3dV4MeCba8RXIz FsZFONrzIW1Ri2lorRkhHtprTbkVU3+hkPXWc8b7ai4AcjbivtYug69UX+B/pPtA7cc+ oQvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Zg/66DD/yxIHAeV5IfonY8Shqk+IGJb+9/2fE2Xu1C1Bxv7WC dd/Vu01V0ihbGC4HNIpWXAotVVXaMPMww41BwIg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz/kxwMUZxmlfKqY/WDNJPdID5fQ5MCpU4fgXe589DkqEEBl3uCIu+Lhv/3eWbInTm1VDnvtVpbMnGRrAGcQlg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e788:b029:eb:2c5b:bce8 with SMTP id cp8-20020a170902e788b02900eb2c5bbce8mr2173161plb.41.1619735885992; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 15:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:38:05 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:38:05 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmnxUoBU4opydF0KUNnu87DhZ67b4iYOFFpYTqsdoKGbBw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: > So from my POV, your proposal is not at that level of polish of VS > Code/Atom either. > > That's also why I asked whether somebody knows a corresponding UI > element/animation in either of these editors we could, uh, "get inspired > by". I installed VSCode to see what they do there. But I failed to make it flash or beep at me, or even present an error. Does anyone know any way to do that? BTW, VSCode reasonably does not beep just because you reach the beginning or end of the buffer, heh. (BTW#2, I tried "searching" the Emacs sources [i.e. grepping] which made the entire program freeze on me for half a minute. So we are not the only ones who sometimes fail to be asynchronous enough.) >> I can't really say whether it's better or worse, with visible-bell t on >> Windows the frame briefly flashes (with the FlashWindow function), a bit >> like a flash in a terminal.=C2=A0 Among the three visible-bell t behavio= rs, >> it's the best one IMO, in the sense that it's visible and not intrusive. > > Is it possible to replicate on other systems? It would be useful if someone could post a screenshot for those of us with no access to any Windows machines.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2021 21:46:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 29 17:46:30 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56982 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcEUP-0002fX-Qx for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:46:30 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:58470) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcEUO-0002fP-2m for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:46:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619732786; bh=yq28sqNKR59RIl8GrcVm2kuyRpjAiijtNFfs4tzWdn0=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=GBgxknmM7Lo6dXujJ2KLOjwt8kzr1r42Qd4Dfv4xX/DjKk+yhXqsQjB+5mMUSBJbO lSqCgjYTuHrEYEqgvslzm2v51qDa6mUt3bb1HN07PyO/Su69WdpqQbmeJdGzQ2q0j8 iBJTiayDCkWju2EURL6RXk5GFqKCgaZmtLELzefXZTfXVb7PtqSoS8KXdW3jIc31af BGGOX9UIoqRFF69JXE7EXuONhi5UU0pAATZ85G9ggBYk6znTK4MFGrlgsiCTJaYeM5 14O1rd1MH84H2sW8ydsKs7xQBut4/QP+IOdGmbkmWv09tFZe424fXIATJebQVGcf8B n4ID4Io7RUjvg== Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 21:46:26 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <8fba78a42eb8bd480d61@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="oNHKzgzh88" Content-ID: <8fba78a42ee248d57e47@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --oNHKzgzh88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-ID: <8fba78a42e73677d9b2d@HIDDEN> > > In practice, I like the current GNU/Linux's default better than your > proposal. We could work on converging on some version that satisfies > all, of course. > I know you like the current default on GNU/Linux, and it will remain available. And what you like is not the default (you need to set visible-bell in your init file), so from that point of view nothing changes. >> Would you imagine such a behavior in Visual Studio, Sublime or Atom? > > Briefly flashing some UI elements in a neutral fashion, without extra > colors that may look out of place? > Using inverse-video also creates extra colors, unless your frame happens to display only black on white or white on black elements on the first and last line. Moreover with my patch the colors are fully configurable, so you can adapt them to your theme. > > That's also why I asked whether somebody knows a corresponding UI > element/animation in either of these editors we could, uh, "get inspired > by". > AFAICS in other editors error signals are far less frequent (e.g. they do nothing when you try to move past the beginning or end of the buffer, or when you press a key binding with no corresponding action, or when you enter characters in a read-only file, ...), they only signal "critical" errors. So I'm not sure it's possible to get inspired by what they do. What they use are typically popups; I attach two examples with Visual Studio and Atom, one when a non-readable file is opened, another when a non-writable file is saved. --oNHKzgzh88 Content-Type: image/png; name=atom-open.png Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <8fba78a42e7c0812192a@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=atom-open.png iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAA7wAAAB7CAIAAADYJBvxAAApwElEQVR42u3d 2Xcb150n8F8VCvtCbNwXkRRJURK1L5Yl2bIsJ7YcdxI78WQySff0OTOnX+ac eZ6/YOZlnuax55w+M909SSeOnXiVo12WZMmSJZnaKIrivoIAAWIHqlBV81Ak RJEFFFBcINnfz/HJUcACcG/h1q1f3br1u0xb53YCAAAAAIDC2EoXAAAAAADg eYegGQAAAABAA4JmAAAAAAANCJoBAAAAADQgaAYAAAAA0ICgGQAAAABAA4Jm AAAAAAANCJoBAAAAADQgaAYAAAAA0ICgGQAAAABAA4JmAAAAAAANCJoBAAAA ADQgaAYAAAAA0ICgGQAAAABAA4JmAAAAAAANCJoBAAAAADRwq3nzvtZET2Oq xZepskqVroiGH594udJFAAAAAIAKmJ0X7w0J53vTn17L6P4Qg8dXo+Ntbnvu bw/PvtYdq3UJFqNc6V2hbXN7c6WLAAAAAAAVYLew7fXciT3WXe2m2wN8PK0n dtU5PeO3h4Jb6vSH6gAAAAAAG+zwdvP/+M9ufe/VEzQfaEu0+rOVrjUAAAAA 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Thu, 29 Apr 2021 13:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y8sm6457655wru.27.2021.04.29.13.17.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Apr 2021 13:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <80b9aa43-9924-ae07-df60-87dde8c17378@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 23:17:58 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 29.04.2021 22:48, Gregory Heytings wrote: > >>> and a new prettier bell function, which would be the default >> >> Another option would be to use your newer bell on MacOS (which has >> universally negative feedback), but keep the current one on GNU/Linux >> and Windows >> > > IMO a default that gives the same result across platforms would be much > better. In theory, yes. In practice, I like the current GNU/Linux's default better than your proposal. We could work on converging on some version that satisfies all, of course. But only replacing MacOS's bell would let us get around that. > I'm not sure what you mean by "the current one on GNU/Linux and > Windows": the current default is an audible bell. If you mean "make the > current visible-bell the default", That one, yes, sorry. > Would you imagine such a behavior in Visual > Studio, Sublime or Atom? Briefly flashing some UI elements in a neutral fashion, without extra colors that may look out of place? Perhaps the implementation is a little old-fashioned, but the idea is solid, IMHO. So from my POV, your proposal is not at that level of polish of VS Code/Atom either. That's also why I asked whether somebody knows a corresponding UI element/animation in either of these editors we could, uh, "get inspired by". >> >> Windows (maybe? very little has been said here about whether it's >> better or worse). >> > > I can't really say whether it's better or worse, with visible-bell t on > Windows the frame briefly flashes (with the FlashWindow function), a bit > like a flash in a terminal. Among the three visible-bell t behaviors, > it's the best one IMO, in the sense that it's visible and not intrusive. Is it possible to replicate on other systems? > Not sure this is relevant to the current discussion, but: 99% GNU/Linux > (Debian), 0.95% macOS, 0.05% Windows. Of course it is relevant. If you were indeed a predominantly MacOS user, we could agree to split the difference. Apparently not, though.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2021 19:48:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Apr 29 15:48:54 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56837 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lcCeb-0008Lm-SW for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 15:48:54 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:58358) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lcCeZ-0008Ld-MW for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 15:48:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619725729; bh=0a7E97FhLy9P7i3A/GxT86LS7G6TkbcWApT0Xwe6RaM=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=a9agedZhAqqSIPyHzW6inf3yFelkvzEoFOdJYV91XlpWGmsXJ4FvsMOmMIKjETrfm n77P4PQs6gOcwxvAWVrhZ2mXAwExxlNjsfXdhZtk3E1TlUbaVqA4GxsfIHSGYR+wVD W7mP+PCiX4oCVvzejwBFLqBIcDP7oMmkQc94C+wUU0qidMmO+WMcmgVywWixBXR/d8 5fU3VJv+SXfYWeBcN/z/Tjvr9vux+hNvVaXSTRuUZvMf0tcfx0zXNwdftKDF3gEJoQ oZ29eZVJUGbmfTOVUKIHmA9h1T/Y6RMpnQ86rxLBQICMTFaLuaBSH5L9Wkb+ir4Ghb zPzV7nm9XREKA== Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 19:48:48 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <8fba78a42ee78011f182@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> and a new prettier bell function, which would be the default > > Another option would be to use your newer bell on MacOS (which has > universally negative feedback), but keep the current one on GNU/Linux > and Windows > IMO a default that gives the same result across platforms would be much better. I'm not sure what you mean by "the current one on GNU/Linux and Windows": the current default is an audible bell. If you mean "make the current visible-bell the default", I can only repeat that the visible bell on GNU/Linux is ugly. Would you imagine such a behavior in Visual Studio, Sublime or Atom? > > Windows (maybe? very little has been said here about whether it's better > or worse). > I can't really say whether it's better or worse, with visible-bell t on Windows the frame briefly flashes (with the FlashWindow function), a bit like a flash in a terminal. Among the three visible-bell t behaviors, it's the best one IMO, in the sense that it's visible and not intrusive. But I can't say it's nice. > > Which platform are you on, BTW? > Not sure this is relevant to the current discussion, but: 99% GNU/Linux (Debian), 0.95% macOS, 0.05% Windows.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Thu, 29 Apr 2021 09:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 18sm11007489wmo.47.2021.04.29.09.50.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 29 Apr 2021 09:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <f30f410a-c302-45c5-affa-3a3551648e1e@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 19:50:20 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 28.04.2021 16:12, Gregory Heytings wrote: > > and a new prettier bell function, which would be the default Another option would be to use your newer bell on MacOS (which has universally negative feedback), but keep the current one on GNU/Linux and Windows (maybe? very little has been said here about whether it's better or worse). Which platform are you on, BTW?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2021 13:13:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 28 09:13:07 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52038 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lbk03-0007Tz-4d for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 09:13:07 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:56698) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lbjzw-0007TV-WA for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 09:13:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619615579; bh=QW2xrExOReuSM3VAuoFAaXZ8NyZanVGW2mtEzO31T78=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=lwfhKLXxdFWLP22WAKIflhEfVjLECDFoRf9neqB1fPbMhogTxA3tNrcu94Dkd5zgO nekPYwb5z4x7OjqK5P4grV5lqBboogDqAFJT9aoUglWQV7rG0uzDjkZrqzI5eaWK7r oAe2CDxI4Et3hbxUDnaBgOYBbEuXKQDVEihHhEkN7d1zUzvbbY38CIM071zusayqCX VjSa46MQqkpxhvICl2vGKL8y0RBhiNDMx5CY0mLRAjpC6R370OIT6isuztB5eeRERf vp7vQQGE94aLyiB51aShL3C0NIgr+/SQ5BB0IEc1sGHvRxwSHfXcMPRMvy2g8qCQrr xlzHcUJRkV2hw== Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 13:12:59 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <b02650b49996941561fc@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="0YffYxNzKN" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0YffYxNzKN Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii >> So we'd change the default of the former to be a new visible bell >> function (for instance something that works the same as the visible >> bell on GNU/Linux systems, but across all systems (or one of the new >> proposed visible bell functions)), and deprecate `visible-bell'. I >> think that should be a pretty un-annoying way forward. > > Fully agreed; it's an improvement over my proposal. > > This is currently handled in different ways on different platforms, so I > we might want to clean that up a bit while we're at it. > Yes, the idea would be to have new predefined values for ring-bell-function: ring-bell-beep = the former visible-bell nil (when ring-bell-function was nil) ring-bell-visible = the former visible-bell t (when ring-bell-function was nil), whose behavior differs depending on the platform and a new prettier bell function, which would be the default. > > The main thing remaining, besides writing the actual patch, is to decide > what the visual bell should look like. I am currently running with > Gregory's patch for testing; it would useful if others carried out > similar experiments with one or more variations mentioned in this thread > Thank you. I recently improved the patch to handle the explicit 'ding' events more cleanly, see attached. In that case, because 'ding' is usually followed by 'message', there is a short delay between the flash and the message, but that seems unavoidable (or at least I do not see how it could be avoided). Note that the delay is already present with visible-bell t (and ring-bell-function nil). --0YffYxNzKN Content-Type: text/x-diff; name=New-default-bell.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <b02650b499107ee77491@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=New-default-bell.patch RnJvbSBkM2I2YmQ2OWNkNWU5MjgzZmEwYTQxODljZTdkMDFiY2I3NmU2NjU0 IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogR3JlZ29yeSBIZXl0 aW5ncyA8Z3JlZ29yeUBoZXl0aW5ncy5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBXZWQsIDI4IEFw ciAyMDIxIDEyOjU1OjA3ICswMDAwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIE5ldyBk ZWZhdWx0IGJlbGwuDQoNCiogbGlzcC9zaW1wbGUuZWwgKHJpbmctYmVsbC1j b2xvcik6IE5ldyBkZWZhdWx0IGJlbGwsIHdoaWNoIGJyaWVmbHkgZmxhc2hl cw0KdGhlIGN1cnNvciBhbmQgdGhlIGVjaG8gYXJlYSB3aGVuIGFuIGVycm9y IG9jY3Vycy4NCihyaW5nLWJlbGwtY29sb3ItZWNoby1hcmVhLWZhY2UsIHJp bmctYmVsbC1jb2xvci1jdXJzb3ItZmFjZSk6IE5ldyBmYWNlcy4NCihyaW5n LWJlbGwtY29sb3ItaWdub3JlZC1lcnJvcnMsIHJpbmctYmVsbC1jb2xvci1k dXJhdGlvbik6IE5ldyB1c2VyIG9wdGlvbnMuDQoNCiogc3JjL2V2YWwuYyAo 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 28 Apr 2021 10:08:38 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 28 06:08:38 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51787 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lbh7W-0004rr-Gh for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 06:08:38 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f176.google.com ([209.85.214.176]:46854) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lbh7U-0004rf-It for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 06:08:37 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f176.google.com with SMTP id s20so16697038plr.13 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 03:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ba59lsRUi/yUW/wz0ffUe4Iu+MM/RsmsDTayUzuthkw=; b=nBeP7p96fs4uftvVYUB0WJCjaIqjgtz2EWPbS35A301C5b3KAtnaw3YccULNQ8WdZF Um8BC4e09eqlcDyJNXuQE7KmvQlywzEIurnkMYK3wo3zqQv/zMH2qfjQ9bGIxOwl0Jvj e/4Q1zqL3WNLIcTSsGrA40ebdvFl2FziqW578CqvChBJUnCur0xzUM/XRXLG8XDcVYzI 4IXQxv5kLfQs2wa1eRTM3j6DhnE7X8pCC5ho+NAEDnK2C/Bwh/FHQy3poVtP+ucYfMJW sw5UXyTiQIWW9kpsOLX7ZXIma4LY/mSLub7qMRScgAKPcZjofLeBClTMIV+T2o4hbdf6 mRXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532RAxK3BERdnW48CCjGphXd4CqTB1IKyVcvGSiX/6n8j4Gn3YgD qXnbH6jpEaPXpcAtZkBC0j7woIfzr8e7ALwNBVw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwArKI0Gur85nQvc2m62N0tvqpbNA+nkq0eBYeUH7Q6fzEQfAAphY/zkaJGIEU0pY5TooHHOwXmnWa/kTgc6xE= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7788:b029:e9:11:5334 with SMTP id o8-20020a1709027788b02900e900115334mr28964834pll.70.1619604511100; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 03:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 03:08:30 -0700 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 03:08:30 -0700 Message-ID: <CADwFkmkdnocKL4crhCi5LaCPxqLwMHNG8NntpB9NHsNSF9+Vdw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > So we'd change the default of the former to be a new visible bell > function (for instance something that works the same as the visible bell > on GNU/Linux systems, but across all systems (or one of the new proposed > visible bell functions)), and deprecate `visible-bell'. I think that > should be a pretty un-annoying way forward. Fully agreed; it's an improvement over my proposal. This is currently handled in different ways on different platforms, so I we might want to clean that up a bit while we're at it. The main thing remaining, besides writing the actual patch, is to decide what the visual bell should look like. I am currently running with Gregory's patch for testing; it would useful if others carried out similar experiments with one or more variations mentioned in this thread and reported back.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Apr 2021 23:21:32 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 27 19:21:32 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51261 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lbX1I-0002q2-KW for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:21:32 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34252) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lbX1H-0002pq-AH for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 19:21:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=+5kT4jrEHR5DfKSzH9EDiAeXSXxaXW/SqArpwnBJwDs=; b=oqIi4ymPAlLaS7bwFcwH1NXxY3 WtrdS2gYB2FprUp/9TraVz6MWmpypNrtMnNTR6S60RQQk8ibrM+tdQ4e1t5H1RzXFFXFnpkgFQM4S 5CrW0ZDbyHDRrf9CUz53ksjEJ0BbJIQ/zawz0LmCQ4SwwK0MZi6438g59ajxLHEbGgEg=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lbX15-0004bv-Hp; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 01:21:22 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAGFBMVEUNDA0fHx0vLy5L S0ohIB5AQD9APz3///9zk+3GAAAAAWJLR0QHFmGI6wAAAAd0SU1FB+UEGxcRGk8XOVAAAADMSURB VDjLzdJRDoMgDAbgVs2eaXYBKR5AqQdQzA6w+19mqJlOCw9LzLI/MZh+UhAFuDQmXqjLtuwlABet 3C1P9Q5u8hF82UnZ86PdAbdW690/pbIZcDIk6yhSJ6EQeeagT8LN87y6PhLkpajBBBzAoAZwhEAJ QAkGiDQEz4Az0LmTt2lgbxbAM4RlIQ3IzRgHmu0IDddJgOVrxNfQ/x1BJuYwfGTMwVpJneIK25z3 Luj8+L69ASpIQq77LyMizkmngZmDOPt9x+sST+oF+ewRqQv+VL8AAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRl ADIwMjEtMDQtMjdUMjM6MTc6MjYrMDA6MDCFGjn/AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA0 LTI3VDIzOjE3OjI2KzAwOjAw9EeBQwAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Lori Carson's _Where It Goes_: "Down Here" Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 01:21:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message of "Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:54:59 +0000") Message-ID: <87v987z53l.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: > Stefan M means (IIUC) that, instead of introducing a new variable to > clean up the current situation, it is better to reuse the already > existing ring-bell-function variable, to give it some new p [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: > Stefan M means (IIUC) that, instead of introducing a new variable to > clean up the current situation, it is better to reuse the already > existing ring-bell-function variable, to give it some new possible > values, and at the same time to deprecate the visible-bell variable. Sure, that makes sense, I think. (Since `ring-bell-function' has precedence over `visible-bell'.) So we'd change the default of the former to be a new visible bell function (for instance something that works the same as the visible bell on GNU/Linux systems, but across all systems (or one of the new proposed visible bell functions)), and deprecate `visible-bell'. I think that should be a pretty un-annoying way forward. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:15:11 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Index: AQHXO0tiU8gXuQXOIUm0DU5ELK4Wj6rIeT5w Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:15:11 +0000 Message-ID: <SA2PR10MB44748B7FA66D73F42695FA0EF3419@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: heytings.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 91077d8a-0746-4183-9487-08d9098f4057 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Apr 2021 15:15:11.3015 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: DTO7GAIr+Ht1U4IoK1BgHeNRVx6yibAGUfjOc+MQZFZZYcbjomtWladVRPQEc2qiMNRYw9f+4ELL9KLmpzWHuw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2638 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9967 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=918 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104270107 X-Proofpoint-GUID: Vi7vP2gzhrz-Xy99Y6IrbVACe12FG2_y X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Vi7vP2gzhrz-Xy99Y6IrbVACe12FG2_y X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > >> My point was that we can clean up without any new variable ;-) > > I'm not sure I follow you at all here. :-/ >=20 > Stefan M means (IIUC) that, instead of introducing a new variable to > clean up the current situation, it is better to reuse the already existin= g > ring-bell-function variable, to give it some new possible values, +1. > and at the same time to deprecate the visible-bell variable. Is that needed?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Apr 2021 09:55:04 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 27 05:55:04 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48115 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lbKQq-0004o4-8t for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 05:55:04 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:55102) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lbKQn-0004na-VH for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 05:55:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619517300; bh=SR9hRFwReYFfgMxm5Tg9XxVM7LDrD6oGyViGbGsfTAM=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=d+Ie2LTHaVFn0FxyQl+nbATMjwOPqcFF7kOE0rwqjYE02kg981CU3e8lTmnWRUzbQ SIJ+YkMMyGE6rH2wbshTHvz2PnIwytZlCYBSqMj2RPEdEynODFIF7zmg2TY+7O8vAb 5cwbFE/itqqmAsWD2d8x1OJpQyRAEpWzfjVlV1uDzf7YPeFBmphfN7Zf9JyNUOZfFe QLlUOBkialcbxsdGbMnx57Nd8532W7exeq3bhMDpO3FEYy1lwh4j/qi8CWqX/WR/xn sV32mf6XYDoVDVDLGTtEoC1VAmS1gYjsey6ff95kF7h+DUQN+PrU5q3FQ8ugSptWO0 Zfp+DzcLL9E8Q== Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:54:59 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <fe6aee4ffd72e8568001@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> My point was that we can clean up without any new variable ;-) > > I'm not sure I follow you at all here. :-/ > Stefan M means (IIUC) that, instead of introducing a new variable to clean up the current situation, it is better to reuse the already existing ring-bell-function variable, to give it some new possible values, and at the same time to deprecate the visible-bell variable.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Apr 2021 01:07:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 26 21:07:42 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47583 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lbCCU-0003pc-08 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 21:07:42 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:51642) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lbCCP-0003pM-P1 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 21:07:41 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=P43LkRyTdaEU45e1jHNADmhPTPhIjK4rqlhEHy0IB1I=; b=QKosxSAptSCU7xHch6+yNZaF4m 2xqdkOu7ylFVTY3dv+XI2Dgkd5g9uefxEnNG9QsqyV/lq5oi7GETKj5AoLeN+7qrrzUHNToTioxsh q1ZkTsKat8ei1zQSmW8Xk1RVRmKjeQQWEQj7f7w862HtA/VpVorBCs48/ps6dgl9YLYA=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lbCCB-0005BQ-6P; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 03:07:28 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAGFBMVEX+7DP31TbQqkRq TnJ2mkK9Q0c4aJf///8DskB9AAAAAWJLR0QHFmGI6wAAAAd0SU1FB+UEGwEHCc+aEpsAAAG1SURB VDjLbVTBjqswDIwjcbez4g5Z+IIK7rsKd0hxf6B6+f9PeBPKtoTWEhcPMx7saY3ZiojNxyIDQJz3 thVxrZf2iH51IbjuJ/yGEPwRcF3XWv/T+c7731KQoCl4PpXT5aMJr5N+MEiKuTq/AzX6YYrvhDVo rvYMVGHSxgEpxWzsg0Zj15MYXRVKs8X8SQtD4wZU4QR8p3HIAKkWgNxS+gdgMf2aJz0/QMfhNuSx ROv0cuWiJrgEoNyH11JcNHrX1uMeGX2uEX2zMfKmMvYgUN8a4j6hhm1VO0EqbKafN+C+5v5uiRz6 uuiYkSwX98kMQKPq9XIZ0xC9/3NENSzNdcTtrmk4nFWy14j3iL/S8d7E3kC5MX0EcDiEAOhbrPui tzvwF8N4REnn73RJwzEgnG1ZuMJnFJEicTgSDOMeR6WNUWvPeVlFBjOjVotlnbL5YNimL4Vywh9S tZ4CCAZXyJ6esyxiuVpAOqcfPzm2bJ/bLhj5Io17A3xOz0JynmEbk4VE6A3AppiYSU5Ai2sIs5z+ HQTvt0S5ywVFCH1GGSop6Jh9LhspGH/d7ZzHMGSZvcUv5D/+/2riRhtuBQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpj cmVhdGUAMjAyMS0wNC0yN1QwMTowNzowOCswMDowMNe86/kAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIw MjEtMDQtMjdUMDE6MDc6MDgrMDA6MDCm4VNFAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: ESG's _Keep On Moving_: "Purely Physical" Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 03:07:22 +0200 In-Reply-To: <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:03:54 -0400") Message-ID: <874kfs3585.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > My point was that we can clean up without any new variable ;-) I'm not sure I follow you at all here. :-/ Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > My point was that we can clean up without any new variable ;-) I'm not sure I follow you at all here. :-/ -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
Message-ID: <jwvbla2t6v4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN>
<a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN>
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<jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:03:54 -0400
In-Reply-To: <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun,
25 Apr 2021 20:12:58 +0200")
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Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>,
jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>,
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>>> I would be in favour of fixing this by adding one or more new variables
>>> with reasonable semantics. For example, why not have a variable called
>>> `alarm-bell' with these valid values:
>>>
>>> - a function call this function
>>> - `visual' Use a visual bell
>>> - t Ring the bell
>>> - nil Do nothing
>>
>> Agreed, except I suggest to use slightly different names: `visual` becomes
>> `ring-bell-visual`, `t` becomes `ring-bell-beep`, `nil` becomes `ignore` and
>> `alarm-bell` becomes `ring-bell-function`.
>
> So just use function names instead of symbols? I think, in general,
> it's nice to have things like nil/t in variables like this -- it's
> easier for users to deal with.
>
> Anyway, I agree that cleaning up this area by introducing a new variable
> and obsoleting the slightly confusing current state of affairs would be
> nice.
My point was that we can clean up without any new variable ;-)
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 20:06:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 16:06:28 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43888 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lal1Q-0004DL-M1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:06:28 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:55873) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lal1P-0004D7-4D for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 16:06:27 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f41.google.com with SMTP id s14so20926224pjl.5 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 13:06:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OMLplXksd5lQpVLKK5D6qW9xfKfwSKXfoIgWKHY58V0=; b=X1ViBsywUcSmfYkX6lt+XiMj9n9b++w768uoIW5HEa4uXMLHQghD7UR16Zbzu0k1WP No1kYoK3CCuCDg2UeJj1+RGmHjNllGKzAxPTTwwUMw8OjCcPjMqrjuKlruFqvZVFWMJN PQU/Oa/THa53A03XIfwHvxeRd0hTBngHiXZhNQnSe6/8aYIakKEE24XbQQIkfcg1pKxF eDkBo38mt6fHhtlIt5psBQncuL7OYDkTpyDPhn6+ne675DLzARaJwMi2cnnJEEim7K91 K6dcUoC/Kbvw3LYUUnC6EGl+1kNtfOQjlZEKpG/wbXjpctV6pgVM0N0/pbowR0IX1g2v O8dg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533bzFytgUB8qkNRTlUPuT/DyfJzDod1oW4hsu3hPsvTxj6Dm+IU hqZuacVeTax1MPaMaxw5FJ8H3zQm82kuEk/quVk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz0v3Z70aU4ywgU/IgcMXEIize1G2tLVapBuQ/aH1V9nGiRlFFATEqjGo9PiLUh0qlPXFCPYZWYNqT4zum3A7M= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:716:: with SMTP id s22mr8075638pjz.179.1619381181304; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 13:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 15:06:20 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <874kfukzn8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvsg3n1url.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87tuo3ob5f.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmttv1m3u.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87h7k2o3fx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkXNvkid+9XFSmGWgajM5g2yFSwqvdGC-h-XjYV=jDDiw@HIDDEN> <874kfukzn8.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 15:06:20 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmmifVegBAQCn9f=oQPXFG=B7_-PoTFs6RBrtS2UZqXDHg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > Oh, I see -- I imagined that visible-bell had precedence over > ring-bell-function (without testing that). > > But then I guess flipping the default on visible-bell won't have the > adverse effects on the popular Emacs distributions that I was worried > about? Looks like it, yes. I guess the main thing to be fixed before we could change the default is to figure out what to do about the visible bell on macOS. The other changes discussed in this thread would be very useful to continue working on, but they seem orthogonal to me.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 19:33:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 15:33:53 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43867 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lakVt-0001IB-2l for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 15:33:53 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:38330) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lakVq-0001Hw-NV for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 15:33:51 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=dMnSQ8aQ+i5rjQ0X/3Xtv/pCrvw3NRgIZKYFMsARN7s=; b=ihnFcATYc+fQNIHAloBwq1xvhv GyahDVNFlZkmslWNBDpyaC+Ch+ye/O2POfvRX6yZs3jXOg55W3nwf5TEx2EDNHLjutz2GDg4wJU3y idULbvZl6DjW/WhoysFZ6l4hv3Q83GuHbpidB6dBrDkZlDo3h5SLbcJTw6qb1G6cKCjw=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lakVO-0001Tu-6t; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 21:33:24 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v98imnzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v98is9jj.fsf@HIDDEN> <878s56kzqz.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkqnqnh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87lf96jiip.fsf@HIDDEN> <8735venpg3.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Now-Playing: The Body's _Remixed and Reinterpreted_: "Adamah (Rimixed by OAA)" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 21:33:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: <8735venpg3.fsf@HIDDEN> (Andreas Schwab's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2021 21:18:04 +0200") Message-ID: <87y2d6i2gu.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> writes: > A delay in milliseconds may appear anywhere in a string capability, > enclosed in $<..> brackets, as in el=\EK$<5>, and padding characters > are supplied by tputs(3X) to provide this delay. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> writes: > A delay in milliseconds may appear anywhere in a string capability, > enclosed in $<..> brackets, as in el=\EK$<5>, and padding characters > are supplied by tputs(3X) to provide this delay. So tputs(3), which Emacs calls, is supposed to translate that sequence into a number of padding characters, which should provide a delay... and that doesn't seem to work on this Debian/bullseye laptop. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
<83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN>
<875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN>
<87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN>
<874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN>
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<87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN>
<877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87v98imnzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v98is9jj.fsf@HIDDEN>
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<87lf96jiip.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 21:18:04 +0200
In-Reply-To: <87lf96jiip.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun,
25 Apr 2021 21:01:18 +0200")
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On Apr 25 2021, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> But what's interpreting the $<100/> bit in the string Emacs is outputting?
RTFM.
A delay in milliseconds may appear anywhere in a string capability,
enclosed in $<..> brackets, as in el=\EK$<5>, and padding characters
are supplied by tputs(3X) to provide this delay.
Andreas.
--
Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 19:01:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 15:01:47 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43824 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lak0p-0005uL-2e for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 15:01:47 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:38034) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lak0n-0005pp-Jz for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 15:01:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=/rm/hx78Btf3rLSbRT9lEU5bwlwVAO30lwUWh2+MSqE=; b=pa9qt2/yN7PjMolprWVuqa+hOm jjpjsEf1gs1Lw448+NcM8rewxW7LTyfRP97wo19yC74zYQl+CBIk91QXc4hpKa1HC3NI9QGICaUXy q4YbNxEKb7d9IMXOR05c3WiYoRf+gbAmcJ1VdG6vVwenzhHLPE5t/bEC0c+anu2/WJeE=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lak0M-0001Ck-TT; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 21:01:21 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v98imnzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v98is9jj.fsf@HIDDEN> <878s56kzqz.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkqnqnh.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEU1NimsbSbEmhh+ hYb////81lOLAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UEGRMAB9LIFs4AAAGwSURBVDjLbVRRlsQg CIN6AbAXEE7QLve/2wbUvuns+uGoMQRCHSIlcnch+hmHGVF3FnYsAJAqgE6HOTZ+DHYseh4S55QM VeMCpAsJuY68OzAjKkINTLjesct7llzDJlGIKADVwd26e2VyIFSJsObBkAk4blJepYw/M/M9kAoO BqIm+gK6Idc+skSMHWwCUgdYVs4LEKSSxbNrGbOjkRzORusm1Y0dyssTpA4Gpv4BlGxS7HjSQqgS n8GteJshC+BMYimka51egx/GUmixAaHo5XMOPe973qiOtV6Zi7IqyjPdcu32KsAAJBsm9LIBDZ55 VtmC3jmXL6w8ATGFlw3oT+Wq7VqAnrNNZ2gBGSqwHhSpGtIiijM1spSW54Fq4t6Vr+JmVOKI8nH6 EXFtANT7IdAtdH3YBcraxxlXK5nlyuNfAwCd8rE9YfMngWsB8cS8Ekzgsy3r0QA6X/1SigQ+pTcD xTMF/R3LFv0HkJl7e/d+MvLprP22htJ7NFx3rCcJS0J2XL408GkE9W7Gf8TrwwTxi1JfE16uylfG Ws9Vqs5vkTwE73qfc2rg70H17dYv17c8bOqLIYAAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDQt MjVUMTk6MDA6MDcrMDA6MDCDhJcRAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA0LTI1VDE5OjAw OjA3KzAwOjAw8tkvrQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Octo Octa's _Resonant Body_: "Spin Girl, Letas Activate!" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 21:01:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <877dkqnqnh.fsf@HIDDEN> (Andreas Schwab's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:52:02 +0200") Message-ID: <87lf96jiip.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> writes: >> cat-ing that file does not flash the terminal here, > > That's because the 100ms delay is missing. Yeah, just cat-ing \033[?5h does inverse the console. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> writes: >> cat-ing that file does not flash the terminal here, > > That's because the 100ms delay is missing. Yeah, just cat-ing \033[?5h does inverse the console. But what's interpreting the $<100/> bit in the string Emacs is outputting? "\033[?5h$<100/>\033[?5l" -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 18:52:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 14:52:08 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43777 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lajrU-0004PE-6K for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:52:08 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.9]:54111) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <whitebox@HIDDEN>) id 1lajrR-0004P6-Tv for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:52:06 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FSxw40gjZz1qs42; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:52:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.70]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FSxw35fblz1qqkH; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:52:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.70]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fOSMBKOIoO4s; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:52:02 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: qNhZJd9b+qHt6jyNJ6eTbM7X2hw9uikuVSNB1rvqQhjQoyj4gp1TxgzTLfILaAEZ Received: from igel.home (ppp-46-244-174-172.dynamic.mnet-online.de [46.244.174.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:52:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 334052C313A; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:52:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v98imnzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v98is9jj.fsf@HIDDEN> <878s56kzqz.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Yow: I'm an East Side TYPE.. Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:52:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: <878s56kzqz.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:03:48 +0200") Message-ID: <877dkqnqnh.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) On Apr 25 2021, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > cat-ing that file does not flash the terminal here, That's because the 100ms delay is missing. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1 "And now for something completely different."
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 18:13:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 14:13:29 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43715 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lajFq-0003Oi-Rn for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:13:29 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37620) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lajFo-0003OU-WD for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:13:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=7szLUdjLS1d32+DM6pi+Prphau38Qc5TAyVv90EF/uE=; b=Qjic9LVJx06hAUE39RA+U7K64U 9HytlaMIyA4ps7TU7nmCGK18bixZXcdgtK4VEIZhY5C8s6qTkuYykFU4kLwsidh+92A6D7YsZ64G7 dh7MuLUShPOnrHFdtb230F3k2H8jYjqOqvScItzPqqirG3m/uY+YfoVLB0bqWe7XARdQ=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lajFb-0000lq-LY; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:13:03 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEX5+Prb1duro5+U bVBTOi////93TpsyAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+UEGRE6G+DkQJYAAAGXSURBVDjLfZTh gYMgDIUT6AAJdgChHQCEAc7C/jNdAOlJz7v8QM3nywsIAgDBddhlvczjitdA/VVJ+epCyAgIbKWA XFskAgveGEVahYfZNJjDZIf/QjFaAvcbxOhiUPFEcACJFIt7N3m0m0pJMQvcBsF2h6nk1FTxLcEG pE6Jpcg41kH7Oi6xCBCSShiCLxnMs0ipKinlPS1XHcS7yCCVSqbD5SaCmpBCWdIV9CmoVcVaJDdN TtmOvnbVX+4iaetQgNe1m1xtWlt2gKBTqdkRAfkA+JOuFQMfYAdzFpTXocCA6pwveSiQcFJIrT4P y7NiAAesZ7A2gB4+FTsf+4rpeQVWYJ7NX1xXS1fw+OiXhkJdKKo5LxPYertBwP1cyHFTwEIzkKXq ACyzOQnksYNqzj23Sds13813kfaJvGiJGw8AHlu7+dlfngGnzCbzBTCR2X4A+cRIxFN0QLAaBcgr WGOconHAZbd7s8iH9GAdkgZ9BWS1Z3CTVf4Cez8DOQ/7osLiI2862NsARo6W/CYck2wXeLz/GN+7 NXyuvfdRQwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0wNC0yNVQxNzo1ODoyNyswMDowMFnHcGoA AAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMjVUMTc6NTg6MjcrMDA6MDAomsjWAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC X-Now-Playing: Susumu Yokota's _Cloud Hidden_: "Ama and the Mountain" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:12:58 +0200 In-Reply-To: <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:33:35 -0400") Message-ID: <87zgxmjkr9.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >> I would be in favour of fixing this by adding one or more new variables >> with reasonable semantics. For example, why not have a variable called >> `alarm-bell' with these valid values: >> >> - a [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >> I would be in favour of fixing this by adding one or more new variables >> with reasonable semantics. For example, why not have a variable called >> `alarm-bell' with these valid values: >> >> - a function call this function >> - `visual' Use a visual bell >> - t Ring the bell >> - nil Do nothing > > Agreed, except I suggest to use slightly different names: `visual` becomes > `ring-bell-visual`, `t` becomes `ring-bell-beep`, `nil` becomes `ignore` and > `alarm-bell` becomes `ring-bell-function`. So just use function names instead of symbols? I think, in general, it's nice to have things like nil/t in variables like this -- it's easier for users to deal with. Anyway, I agree that cleaning up this area by introducing a new variable and obsoleting the slightly confusing current state of affairs would be nice. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 18:06:19 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 14:06:19 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43705 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1laj99-0003Ed-2l for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:06:19 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37562) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1laj97-0003ER-13 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:06:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=codFfwWTROlUbSCm4aTMyMNDgjWPUjv5WE/07qGlx64=; b=AaMXWGOTaKIjxj8LGsn7f3jSLH EMV+EWj4oe7t5TvHAdyYf/UBdz7xstiOQHgJae3kmwvIzp0Ma/+hT8U0YZhurb9TPklR3uOFKOsgo TTVA88bmAJC/mh6Rowsp7GibO0CAearVxLi2QHF2fnuBC1MeHqwmLlY67aqll9nxvYUU=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1laj8u-0000jM-4g; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:06:10 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvsg3n1url.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87tuo3ob5f.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmttv1m3u.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87h7k2o3fx.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkXNvkid+9XFSmGWgajM5g2yFSwqvdGC-h-XjYV=jDDiw@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEX5+Prb1duro5+U bVBTOi////93TpsyAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+UEGRE6G+DkQJYAAAGXSURBVDjLfZTh gYMgDIUT6AAJdgChHQCEAc7C/jNdAOlJz7v8QM3nywsIAgDBddhlvczjitdA/VVJ+epCyAgIbKWA XFskAgveGEVahYfZNJjDZIf/QjFaAvcbxOhiUPFEcACJFIt7N3m0m0pJMQvcBsF2h6nk1FTxLcEG pE6Jpcg41kH7Oi6xCBCSShiCLxnMs0ipKinlPS1XHcS7yCCVSqbD5SaCmpBCWdIV9CmoVcVaJDdN TtmOvnbVX+4iaetQgNe1m1xtWlt2gKBTqdkRAfkA+JOuFQMfYAdzFpTXocCA6pwveSiQcFJIrT4P y7NiAAesZ7A2gB4+FTsf+4rpeQVWYJ7NX1xXS1fw+OiXhkJdKKo5LxPYertBwP1cyHFTwEIzkKXq ACyzOQnksYNqzj23Sds13813kfaJvGiJGw8AHlu7+dlfngGnzCbzBTCR2X4A+cRIxFN0QLAaBcgr WGOconHAZbd7s8iH9GAdkgZ9BWS1Z3CTVf4Cez8DOQ/7osLiI2862NsARo6W/CYck2wXeLz/GN+7 NXyuvfdRQwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0wNC0yNVQxNzo1ODoyNyswMDowMFnHcGoA AAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMjVUMTc6NTg6MjcrMDA6MDAomsjWAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC X-Now-Playing: Susumu Yokota's _Cloud Hidden_: "Implications of Karma" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:06:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkXNvkid+9XFSmGWgajM5g2yFSwqvdGC-h-XjYV=jDDiw@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:26:53 -0500") Message-ID: <874kfukzn8.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Is this the scenario you have in mind? > > (setq visible-bell t) > (setq ring-bell-function #'ignore) > (defun foo () (interactive) (ding)) > > M-x foo RET > > This gives no visible bell here. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Is this the scenario you have in mind? > > (setq visible-bell t) > (setq ring-bell-function #'ignore) > (defun foo () (interactive) (ding)) > > M-x foo RET > > This gives no visible bell here. Oh, I see -- I imagined that visible-bell had precedence over ring-bell-function (without testing that). But then I guess flipping the default on visible-bell won't have the adverse effects on the popular Emacs distributions that I was worried about? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Apr 2021 18:04:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 25 14:04:10 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43695 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1laj74-0003Ax-Bz for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:04:10 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:37466) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1laj72-0003Ak-FQ for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 14:04:09 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=I1VRB+y8YBz930IKK2ZIFJvOh+Lixh8UB0JrcwHKhMk=; b=oqC/PqZ49nM5nubK1trckibXsm GYDJHD7uz67JrVqzzP/PhestAv4BsZhlPr0dRmwxEE+mezHPqaLN75XMX23J3qgck8IngVslPXbEg fDH0nGArPUAqxKaYNBP4MwqSA54ZRdaV79EYXu+Jn7Fj4+JJfe+XP+P8DPJnbtKGOyf0=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1laj6i-0000gI-VL; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:03:59 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v98imnzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v98is9jj.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEX5+Prb1duro5+U bVBTOi////93TpsyAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+UEGRE6G+DkQJYAAAGXSURBVDjLfZTh gYMgDIUT6AAJdgChHQCEAc7C/jNdAOlJz7v8QM3nywsIAgDBddhlvczjitdA/VVJ+epCyAgIbKWA XFskAgveGEVahYfZNJjDZIf/QjFaAvcbxOhiUPFEcACJFIt7N3m0m0pJMQvcBsF2h6nk1FTxLcEG pE6Jpcg41kH7Oi6xCBCSShiCLxnMs0ipKinlPS1XHcS7yCCVSqbD5SaCmpBCWdIV9CmoVcVaJDdN TtmOvnbVX+4iaetQgNe1m1xtWlt2gKBTqdkRAfkA+JOuFQMfYAdzFpTXocCA6pwveSiQcFJIrT4P y7NiAAesZ7A2gB4+FTsf+4rpeQVWYJ7NX1xXS1fw+OiXhkJdKKo5LxPYertBwP1cyHFTwEIzkKXq ACyzOQnksYNqzj23Sds13813kfaJvGiJGw8AHlu7+dlfngGnzCbzBTCR2X4A+cRIxFN0QLAaBcgr WGOconHAZbd7s8iH9GAdkgZ9BWS1Z3CTVf4Cez8DOQ/7osLiI2862NsARo6W/CYck2wXeLz/GN+7 NXyuvfdRQwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0wNC0yNVQxNzo1ODoyNyswMDowMFnHcGoA AAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMjVUMTc6NTg6MjcrMDA6MDAomsjWAAAAAElFTkSu QmCC X-Now-Playing: Susumu Yokota's _Cloud Hidden_: "Spectrum of Love" Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 20:03:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83v98is9jj.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 19 Apr 2021 16:12:16 +0300") Message-ID: <878s56kzqz.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> gdb) print tty->TS_visible_bell >> $1 = 0x555555da95c3 "\033[?5h$<100/>\033[?5l" > > Then this should produce the same effect as "tput flash", I think. You'd think so. Hm... If I do a: Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> gdb) print tty->TS_visible_bell >> $1 = 0x555555da95c3 "\033[?5h$<100/>\033[?5l" > > Then this should produce the same effect as "tput flash", I think. You'd think so. Hm... If I do a: $ tput flash > /tmp/a I get a file with: \033[?5h\033[?5l (Raw ESC char translated here in this email.) Which is similar to the string we're outputting. cat-ing that file does not flash the terminal here, though, so I'm wondering whether the ... shell? is doing something weird on this laptop. (Doing the same with, say, "tput cup 5 20" to a file, and then cat-ing that file, works as expected.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Wed, 21 Apr 2021 22:03:43 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Index: AQHXNtOYU8gXuQXOIUm0DU5ELK4Wj6q/eEiw Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 22:03:43 +0000 Message-ID: <SA2PR10MB44743BB9A146B476789D091BF3479@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <4fdaf2ab-30c0-c171-d46c-d22e02579962@HIDDEN> <jwvlf9bllbx.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <192e82f20fc0afe2bccd@HIDDEN> <jwva6prlfo9.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwva6prlfo9.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: iro.umontreal.ca; 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charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 33600618-81f8-4576-30da-08d905115425 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Apr 2021 22:03:43.2628 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JX6x4YUROFum3ITIvXPIILgYTVb2bGmnC8tEqC6yXwB81XGq8S2UKy9HhwcL/4KROqJx0xaZr8qhYA4zGMhJRA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR10MB4444 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9961 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=894 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104210144 X-Proofpoint-GUID: Lqp9SxAHodPe09ulEUhNP9irrGDuV797 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Lqp9SxAHodPe09ulEUhNP9irrGDuV797 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > I proposed the mode-line as an alternative for those who don't like the > current GNU/Linux flash, because it's one of the very few elements > which are displayed in almost 100% of the cases. We could flash the echo= area > instead, but I think it's a bit more delicate to implement and it could > get in the way of reading the actual error message. As mentioned, I use `echo-bell.el'. It flashes a message at the far right of the echo area. By default the message is " =1B$B"v"v"v"v"v"v"v"v"v=1B(B", it's shown for 0.2 sec, and the echo-area background is highlighted with "Aquamarine" for that time period. That flash is as perceptible or imperceptible as a user wants it to be. Far from hiding error messages, it makes them more visible (IMO), by briefly drawing attention to the echo area. This is very simple. Just uses `ring-bell-function'. Remove the highlighting, and that right-edge message might not even be very noticeable. But it's there, and you can find it in `*Messages*', which is more than can be said for mode-line fiddles -- IMO, presence in `*Messages*' is a feature. And for those modernistas who remove the mode-line everywhere... It sounds to me like the proposals discussed so far complicate things for users, rather than simplifying them. But maybe it's just the discussion that's overly complicated, not the actual proposals? Is there really something that needs "fixing" here?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 21:27:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 17:27:24 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59942 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZKNS-0005Ai-Sy for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:27:24 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f174.google.com ([209.85.214.174]:43682) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lZKNM-0005AQ-FF for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:27:18 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f174.google.com with SMTP id u15so13843026plf.10 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:27:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pTrbLjPeLltjjS0I3XvzUPDtzCnTWG89rv7ULkozDTs=; b=sjIjkSAuRGtVfWIk3urT6OxSTQ6Yvyt2UGvRu9NVc/iQEaxCNCMkGInzqITIyef+oD N7Ku3+lo0XeQMEZJoAPuyRp7cYJ4ZEuScngQZfoLIKEPTu4N5EHMMfjYytrmPvhCxS2z CkNGG6McpkD/HvOKAyletkdNflmIr/ARmBAhWoYVwegVpo6pG5emUhCw46hCTHBw7nQg 1c/wlTcaJEgtWZjAya583541Rqec7wk5kJ1kJgUmiyN7LfA07nnwAxQlwU90enxKZqUm LEWoMzxp3MVqWpegO1mXUR1NfAquMJrSmXQ0eCl1vOoLn8zGDJOLTVAbEQFr649mbCpn owSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53176CoqhvlIoXSBf5QfV+518CnpRLAbUtjzziariG5CD7HE8NKr B7A2tMsyU6kK8zfbZDI/ZTNsYpWzd/QITYUXnA8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyfiIL9bSZdxqXegaRjRBPc7x1FPauuYluBv1NOw7C6va8v6ic4237k4CZLJjJGX90JD5ZJj65EskGNldfxJ3w= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:e9c4:b029:eb:4626:feba with SMTP id 4-20020a170902e9c4b02900eb4626febamr240649plk.39.1619040426707; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:27:05 +0200 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <192e82f20f8ac75cbbb0@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <192e82f20fbb3e50ce0c@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=iT_xtDeaRxAU_YNHm_=1x_0VQo2z=hS96y9vtXMzVWQ@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f3239696b3b@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmk+KCUL0iPr0ragXzJ6HrT5Ef10XMZvsXqm9S9nym81xQ@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f8ac75cbbb0@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 23:27:05 +0200 Message-ID: <CADwFkmkW9nnFikZU4dfe2z_tApwOuQEZAX8wTvg-ZgvnSSY8fg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: > That was not a patch, that was only a proof of concept. I attach the > current version of the actual proposed patch. Thanks. This is better than what you had before, as it does not get in the way of reading the minibuffer. My main objection is probably the colour, as I find the yellow to be barely noticeable. But this is minor, as the colours can change. I will need to give it some further testing before I can say more.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 20:26:56 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 16:26:56 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59899 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZJR2-0001bb-14 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:26:56 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47964) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lZJR0-0001bT-96 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:26:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619036813; bh=JF35RA6Wd77znmNfDL07RSQe2q7BazOJ85dgyKEPfz0=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=jKY0UTnWhi65VQL4/X7YWKkRKTS9u5VTkgVPyqWs8emfZ2xVHOPs0MEGCXyuyg06Q oFFk5uiCHybTHoAYtTSSttPZEO19YnBUi7e6WlcD9D905j9vaKcID/GLjqmyW/bR5r x3qu0sKkiyEaRLvKzgS9TfchMZi1X8fhlif7DGjAHYQPhZbt7B9qT/fcJtSkHUAR5V 2e6bTCYuyr0bu8NFp3MrcVsvDDibEQs5rFFexP/BBpZ0GM43Lr9eHDnDlDSzp6U9mR 42D7HJy0cr7JDv4WX8GzlQAHUmdrl5RitE1ZDoGvldZH7VdJZf3A293nIrno5VdI1q X7YF65AB2+5gA== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 20:26:53 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <jwva6prlfo9.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <192e82f20ff223c07ed1@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <4fdaf2ab-30c0-c171-d46c-d22e02579962@HIDDEN> <jwvlf9bllbx.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <192e82f20fc0afe2bccd@HIDDEN> <jwva6prlfo9.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > I proposed the mode-line as an alternative for those who don't like the > current GNU/Linux flash, because it's one of the very few elements which > are displayed in almost 100% of the cases. We could flash the echoarea > instead, but I think it's a bit more delicate to implement and it could > get in the way of reading the actual error message. > The good news is that it has been implemented ;-)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 20:22:56 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 16:22:56 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59895 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZJNA-0001Ve-Hk for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:22:56 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47942) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lZJN8-0001VR-2Y for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:22:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619036572; bh=g7dODnSlCAL7LK25XRWxQ5E30Z386fh+QKDk2Z8RnsA=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=mQ0WTju5cdlCKBnZsWs43znDR7yxMh68wE77sLk1OanxyDK3XWYO1HSoYvJbzU9re xky2KWvSOIM1m+Z5xMFDTOSHIPaQhqXrNXmzpzoQ0l077VMZI7ZwYmHS4Ci45dD3qE a8SDd6F9jV0Kywel7xyar9HAgSzSwF8w+YN67eL+f6I4JPQNFMW7U9fCuL7TJmorGv 6H8+/UKN6TexYz2ZM7POeRZW1Wj155csXP/FSHElU8/EXwTYCI+I+vHzot0mtYeJDS OkJVk1NgJGiC48XtYpi+oBQEKVZ40c35e6cjKO6eYIOaJKcAHO1c9GwF1In1IXKtow djGFD4yeJkcyw== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 20:22:52 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <62fee2e3-8ae2-cbc9-9681-4d7f0fe680c0@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <192e82f20f595f75a43c@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <62fee2e3-8ae2-cbc9-9681-4d7f0fe680c0@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="LkOWPj4q4n" Content-ID: <192e82f20f2267054278@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --LkOWPj4q4n Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-ID: <192e82f20f0c33451d1b@HIDDEN> >> Does the attached patch fix the problem in your config?=C2=A0 It is prob= ably=20 >> safer to check the cursor color each time color-bell is entered. > > It does not, sorry. > I just tried to use it with Doom, Spacemacs and Prelude, and AFAICS it=20 works correctly, the cursor does not become irreversibly red. Could you=20 perhaps try to create a minimal recipe with your config? --LkOWPj4q4n--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 17:35:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 13:35:07 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59727 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZGkf-0003jT-VE for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:35:07 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36834) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lZGkb-0003j9-11 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:35:00 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:60538) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lZGkS-0003nA-Mg; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:34:48 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1686 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lZGkR-0005tT-Vi; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:34:48 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 20:34:34 +0300 Message-Id: <83wnsvpmmt.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <192e82f20fb3cbebb89f@HIDDEN> (message from Gregory Heytings on Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:01:23 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <62fee2e3-8ae2-cbc9-9681-4d7f0fe680c0@HIDDEN> <192e82f20fb3cbebb89f@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: alan@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, dgutov@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:01:23 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> > Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, > jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, > Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > > > Anyway, speaking about other faces you could inherit from (for the echo > > area flash), how about 'highlight' instead of 'match'? > > > > Seems more appropriate. > > Yes, I noted that you'd prefer to use highlight instead of match, > presumably for a certain logical consistency. If highlight had been > yellow, that's what I would have done. IMO, we shouldn't use highlight for anything other than showing text sensitive to mouse or to cursor entry. That's what highlight was invented for, and using the same colors for an utterly different purpose is sub-optimal UI and UX.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
Message-ID: <jwva6prlfo9.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN>
<a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:27:25 -0400
In-Reply-To: <192e82f20fc0afe2bccd@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message
of "Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:14:24 +0000")
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Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
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> I don't understand why flashing the mode-line is among the possible options.
As a happy user of the current GNU/Linux `visual-bell`, I don't really
care where the flashing happens, because I don't look at it. I just
need some flashing somewhere within my field of vision as an indicator
that "something's going on": it doesn't need to be at the place where
I need to look.
And indeed, the current GNU/Linux visual-bell works quite well for that
in my experience since it flashes both above and below, thus not
mistakenly attracting the attention to a particular spot.
In other words, for me the ideal visual bell is one that I can "feel"
more than i can "see".
I proposed the mode-line as an alternative for those who don't like the
current GNU/Linux flash, because it's one of the very few elements which
are displayed in almost 100% of the cases. We could flash the echoarea
instead, but I think it's a bit more delicate to implement and it could
get in the way of reading the actual error message.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 16:14:31 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 12:14:31 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59604 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZFUl-0007y1-0R for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:14:31 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47636) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lZFUf-0007xq-OB for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:14:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619021664; bh=hscnQzj2cngHH/ohnlfpbRzyy8CHn4qjYgjFQEIAsvk=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=XlW1wCwqYLa/3s7A4olTs+VN/fUAJ2VyHcweGtxix7DMCk6NLlBNtsb6wAd99b4Ht ykxGkj3HF2HPyttUJEkwO91ftr+z9wSMqRVFaQK2ivQ8xnaegzaw4ZonGAnrFPIn+R jaciiRPoTsOD/vwMhyg+ja7N4f/g5qWu6mGozQQZrU/kArGvFWabYS/7BxPyoffqQw /yN10+WE9XBc0c0AA5itytVNCy7HbZU0L/kB04tKuPgjhyg+bpt8smjkxeBlReDLih JxZtgjNhuwwUoXBexzp6x/4C7fI3AccUbqCAq5W59nuvhNnRevpTrMcdgzQjdIrmPE g7RfshanjfJog== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:14:24 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <jwvlf9bllbx.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <192e82f20fc0afe2bccd@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <4fdaf2ab-30c0-c171-d46c-d22e02579962@HIDDEN> <jwvlf9bllbx.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> But I do have similar reservations about flashing red so prominently >> (given that the pressing C-g does not usually indicate an error of any >> sort). > > Why not flashing the mode line with something like: > I don't understand why flashing the mode-line is among the possible options. Calling the attention of the user to the mode-line is not TRT, it's neither where the error happened (usually at point or around point) nor where the error that happened is explained (in the echo area). It's like flashing the fringes, there's no point in doing that when an error happens. Yes, there's an option in Doom to do this. But AFAIU Doom does that because it can't do better, namely, because there is no way to access the last error symbol in Emacs and do something with it. This (making the last error symbol and data accessible from Elisp) is included in my proposed patch.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 16:01:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 12:01:26 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59572 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZFI6-0006kC-9P for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:01:26 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47590) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lZFI4-0006i1-Ku for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 12:01:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619020883; bh=3RVg2ATha6MXB/goazPDnnsXAm7TcjwcJO3Obn0v6Fc=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=SYZYM+Soa784dz1u8ZHzDd3Qt0puSVG9Nv17QDzXJIe7uG9BleoPa9U2Ja7orDd+/ PeX3Qk1mkCmeevGRKU58Ep1Otzqxtrq/sznVoo4uRO8wlZ+NVSepSh9P/uNUBW/zF9 R6Od8RORo6yv7OLEKsJfOjbWjAwIwOf0APW4RNucwvvHrApPC3k9HVS3MkHbNePxMG 6sUvvKc3aGRhWn5diDf8RfyGPDFKhZsnSbKxsxCxDoEOef7jWWu09uEzup6NievdKw LBgQcO47y77Ml5B50N9q6MyPuJmmTrlSMO5Mm1oXZox8GmYZxDjMl8VyWv5S+35IHf aD5ztTdhGEdZw== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:01:23 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <62fee2e3-8ae2-cbc9-9681-4d7f0fe680c0@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <192e82f20fb3cbebb89f@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <62fee2e3-8ae2-cbc9-9681-4d7f0fe680c0@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Anyway, speaking about other faces you could inherit from (for the echo > area flash), how about 'highlight' instead of 'match'? > > Seems more appropriate. > Yes, I noted that you'd prefer to use highlight instead of match, presumably for a certain logical consistency. If highlight had been yellow, that's what I would have done. For this specific case I believe yellow is the most appropriate color. If inheriting from highlight is not okay, I'd hardcode the yellow color.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
Message-ID: <jwvlf9bllbx.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:18:09 -0400
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> But I do have similar reservations about flashing red so prominently (given
> that the pressing C-g does not usually indicate an error of any sort).
Why not flashing the mode line with something like:
(let ((val (face-attribute 'mode-line :inverse-video (selected-frame) t)))
(set-face-attribute 'mode-line (selected-frame) :inverse-video (not val))
(sit-for 0.1)
(set-face-attribute 'mode-line (selected-frame) :inverse-video val))
-- Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
Message-ID: <jwvr1j3llha.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN>
<a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:14:32 -0400
In-Reply-To: <a7cd9615-9779-aeaf-a511-16ff5a9bb9a3@HIDDEN> (Dmitry Gutov's
message of "Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:51:55 +0300")
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Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>,
jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>,
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>>> I think this is a bit of a mess, indeed.
>>>
>>> I would be in favour of fixing this by adding one or more new variables
>>> with reasonable semantics. For example, why not have a variable called
>>> `alarm-bell' with these valid values:
>>>
>>> - a function call this function
>>> - `visual' Use a visual bell
>>> - t Ring the bell
>>> - nil Do nothing
>> Agreed, except I suggest to use slightly different names: `visual` becomes
>> `ring-bell-visual`, `t` becomes `ring-bell-beep`, `nil` becomes `ignore` and
>> `alarm-bell` becomes `ring-bell-function`.
>
> And obsoleting the visible-bell variable?
And/or use
(defun ring-bell-default ()
(if visible-bell (ring-bell-visual) (ring-bell-beep)))
as the default value of `ring-bell-function`.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id l15sm3612388edb.48.2021.04.21.08.08.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <4fdaf2ab-30c0-c171-d46c-d22e02579962@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 18:08:43 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 21.04.2021 16:11, Stefan Kangas wrote: > I have used this for a couple of days and find it strictly better than > both the default behavior on GNU/Linux with inverse video and flashing > the minibuffer background. > > Did anyone have any objections to doing it that way? It's... workable. But I do have similar reservations about flashing red so prominently (given that the pressing C-g does not usually indicate an error of any sort). Speaking of alternative mode-line themes, though, with the one I use (smart-mode-line), it just makes some text on it briefly turn to bold (without changing its color). That's pretty subtle, and probably better aesthetically, but it's hard to notice unless one is looking directly at the mode-line.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 14:53:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 10:53:50 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59393 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZEEg-0003XI-2f for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:53:50 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47496) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lZEEa-0003X5-Ll for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:53:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619016822; bh=PA4MyhEXXRB4otVwsHdw5qkfyp4kzqgY0wVWg1D4IRY=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=O4UTe1mZbNytLD5SwxsTswixwibtmDdFBtaIN58/TYBa6LVQqSfW/KalGhuNR8gH9 MmAnnEmDJ7aCpg29ifY0JDhqXwIxFvwf9ANQrtkYJkXiswZse+ZPdFQiYdo8792/oj DkaX3U1VVuT1rgspOXjeCpH4RTssKoNysJo+gkOzCFlQ6xBf27b44U0qUwm5qaP4N8 6w4JO7m8KdPcbOLMjPdC4ac6jsHMTBKG9gOq1HDg6vKymyD2MyP19V2d3ATHoZBWYr L8bOyyIFchedI2gL7JfU1ojpINahDHAOGpb38s/lj/eICnwXXHnFuv//tFK1oQzPwN lTNBHd5xopFFA== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:53:42 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmk+KCUL0iPr0ragXzJ6HrT5Ef10XMZvsXqm9S9nym81xQ@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <192e82f20f8ac75cbbb0@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <192e82f20fbb3e50ce0c@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=iT_xtDeaRxAU_YNHm_=1x_0VQo2z=hS96y9vtXMzVWQ@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f3239696b3b@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmk+KCUL0iPr0ragXzJ6HrT5Ef10XMZvsXqm9S9nym81xQ@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="bLyeEoEhEd" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --bLyeEoEhEd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >>>>> I have used this for a couple of days and find it strictly better >>>>> than both the default behavior on GNU/Linux with inverse video and >>>>> flashing the minibuffer background. >>>> >>>> Did you try the patch I sent? >>> >>> Yes, of course. I provided detailed comments in a previous post. >> >> You mean, the post to which I replied? Okay, it wasn't clear to me >> that you were also commenting on that patch. > > See my comments here: > > https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=1305#574 > > But that was on an earlier version of your patch. Perhaps there are any > significant differences in your most recent version? > That was not a patch, that was only a proof of concept. I attach the current version of the actual proposed patch. --bLyeEoEhEd Content-Type: text/x-diff; name=New-default-bell.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <192e82f20f1606280b0b@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=New-default-bell.patch RnJvbSAxMzI3YzRlMTNkM2MwZjNiYTBjZjkzYzQzYWQ4MjY0NTM2NTEyM2Rm IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogR3JlZ29yeSBIZXl0 aW5ncyA8Z3JlZ29yeUBoZXl0aW5ncy5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBXZWQsIDIxIEFw ciAyMDIxIDE0OjUyOjAxICswMDAwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIE5ldyBk ZWZhdWx0IGJlbGwuDQoNCiogbGlzcC9zaW1wbGUuZWwgKGNvbG9yLWJlbGwp OiBOZXcgZGVmYXVsdCBiZWxsLCB3aGljaCBicmllZmx5IGZsYXNoZXMNCnRo ZSBjdXJzb3IgYW5kIHRoZSBlY2hvIGFyZWEgd2hlbiBhbiBlcnJvciBvY2N1 cnMuDQooY29sb3ItYmVsbC1lY2hvLWFyZWEtZmFjZSwgY29sb3ItYmVsbC1j dXJzb3ItZmFjZSk6IE5ldyBmYWNlcy4NCihjb2xvci1iZWxsLWlnbm9yZWQt ZXJyb3JzLCBjb2xvci1iZWxsLWR1cmF0aW9uKTogTmV3IHVzZXIgb3B0aW9u cy4NCg0KKiBzcmMvZXZhbC5jIChsYXN0LWVycm9yLXN5bWJvbCwgbGFzdC1l 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 14:52:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 10:52:14 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59384 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZED4-0003Ui-97 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:52:14 -0400 Received: from mail-ed1-f52.google.com ([209.85.208.52]:37411) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lZECy-0003UA-Pv for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:52:09 -0400 Received: by mail-ed1-f52.google.com with SMTP id s15so49732814edd.4 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:52:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jsmqMNux4JMDrPuZ4LDhm9cP/zcQ6LPShfWotJIwy30=; 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Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u23sm3602072eds.8.2021.04.21.07.51.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <a7cd9615-9779-aeaf-a511-16ff5a9bb9a3@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:51:55 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 21.04.2021 17:33, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> I think this is a bit of a mess, indeed. >> >> I would be in favour of fixing this by adding one or more new variables >> with reasonable semantics. For example, why not have a variable called >> `alarm-bell' with these valid values: >> >> - a function call this function >> - `visual' Use a visual bell >> - t Ring the bell >> - nil Do nothing > Agreed, except I suggest to use slightly different names: `visual` becomes > `ring-bell-visual`, `t` becomes `ring-bell-beep`, `nil` becomes `ignore` and > `alarm-bell` becomes `ring-bell-function`. And obsoleting the visible-bell variable? Sounds good. But if we're going to change the default behavior, it would (probably?) be weird to keep a special case in this variable for the old one. So would 'ring-bell-visual' do what 'visible-bell' currently does, or will it implement one of the proposals under discussion?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
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Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes:
>>>> I have used this for a couple of days and find it strictly better than
>>>> both the default behavior on GNU/Linux with inverse video and flashing
>>>> the minibuffer background.
>>>
>>> Did you try the patch I sent?
>>
>> Yes, of course. I provided detailed comments in a previous post.
>
> You mean, the post to which I replied? Okay, it wasn't clear to me that
> you were also commenting on that patch.
See my comments here:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=1305#574
But that was on an earlier version of your patch. Perhaps there are any
significant differences in your most recent version?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 14:45:58 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 10:45:58 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59370 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZE70-0003Kq-6V for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:45:58 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-f54.google.com ([209.85.218.54]:44559) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lZE6u-0003KX-1F for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:45:52 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-f54.google.com with SMTP id r20so14131678ejo.11 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:45:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7HQkg7HCe6d5p+ux8ui0AjStEiJCJ51P6CfqMry4L4s=; 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Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id mj7sm2627379ejb.39.2021.04.21.07.45.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <62fee2e3-8ae2-cbc9-9681-4d7f0fe680c0@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:45:38 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 21.04.2021 09:47, Gregory Heytings wrote: > >>>> And it turns the cursor red irreversibly in my config (but not in >>>> 'emacs -Q'). >>> >>> That's rather strange, color-bell--cursor-background is saved only >>> once, when visual-bell is called for the first time. I'll try to >>> reproduce the issue, but some more detailed information (e.g. with >>> debug-on-variable-change) would be welcome. >> >> I'll try bisecting when I have the time. In any case, it's just an >> implementation bug, not a blocker. >> > > Does the attached patch fix the problem in your config? It is probably > safer to check the cursor color each time color-bell is entered. It does not, sorry. Anyway, speaking about other faces you could inherit from (for the echo area flash), how about 'highlight' instead of 'match'? Seems more appropriate. >>>> Is nobody bothered by having this kind of visual indication while >>>> 'visible-bell' is nil, though? >>> >>> It's easy to turn off, as indicated in NEWS: (setq ring-bell-function >>> nil). >> >> I mean, like, semantically: this new proposal is also visual/visible. >> >> But 'visible-bell' is nil. >> > > Yes, it's perhaps a bit unfortunate that "visible-bell" is nil in this > case, but note that with visible-bell t and ring-bell-function ignore > you also do not have what you could expect. The semantics of > visible-bell and ring-bell-function are a bit unclear, but they cannot > be fixed anymore without introducing backward incompatible changes. Perhaps a good idea would be introduce a visible-bell-function. But that's hard to do without overriding current customizations, as you described. > I understand that you're accustomed to what visible-bell t does on > GNU/Linux, but frankly, its ugly. Ask their opinion to non-Emacs users > about that bell, I'd be surprised if they like it. Do we have anything to compare to in other editors, BTW? Ones that non-Emacs users employ and could consider preferable.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 14:35:58 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 10:35:58 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59362 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZDxN-00036H-Vu for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:35:58 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47438) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lZDxI-000363-Sl for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:35:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619015751; bh=S8vdG6lrJPoXdhOijheNba8lcuUP17Sr9uiGDNVVJSg=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=HO6CnddJnaK5F0DLbEjNgDiApgFkIgP6V10C9/UKeGcpb6i9W0Nt4/vSsMP1ZMUNS +bWXPM/P5sA9zoKEzcXyT1H8NqelPTa5A3x16COlGAwdqNj3Mj/o2BIMKdLIRTcpbv ORvJP8xk1I3gmuQ9rR3SJVWRvBPsTsMHKuLXPLOJ03YYg0+NZZSuCNTYLv0xp9HMlJ 8nclAkxTf2Dkzq6ydMl5FwW1ulSahBwaNJpLa1O1aS3RnWk4ZG5v/ISWdbSJsC3LFZ yf55Cx6mmOqyudo144oPCHDrM1S74df657XHXms9zyB9mOVerZu+VlC7t4EJRvmlxC PJvxrcWjsY+lw== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:35:51 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=iT_xtDeaRxAU_YNHm_=1x_0VQo2z=hS96y9vtXMzVWQ@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <192e82f20f3239696b3b@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <192e82f20fbb3e50ce0c@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=iT_xtDeaRxAU_YNHm_=1x_0VQo2z=hS96y9vtXMzVWQ@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>> I have used this for a couple of days and find it strictly better than >>> both the default behavior on GNU/Linux with inverse video and flashing >>> the minibuffer background. >> >> Did you try the patch I sent? > > Yes, of course. I provided detailed comments in a previous post. > You mean, the post to which I replied? Okay, it wasn't clear to me that you were also commenting on that patch.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
Message-ID: <jwv35vjn1zt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN>
<a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:33:35 -0400
In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN>
(Stefan Kangas's message of "Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:11:04 -0500")
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>> Yes, it's perhaps a bit unfortunate that "visible-bell" is nil in this
>> case, but note that with visible-bell t and ring-bell-function ignore you
>> also do not have what you could expect. The semantics of visible-bell and
>> ring-bell-function are a bit unclear, but they cannot be fixed anymore
>> without introducing backward incompatible changes.
>
> I think this is a bit of a mess, indeed.
>
> I would be in favour of fixing this by adding one or more new variables
> with reasonable semantics. For example, why not have a variable called
> `alarm-bell' with these valid values:
>
> - a function call this function
> - `visual' Use a visual bell
> - t Ring the bell
> - nil Do nothing
Agreed, except I suggest to use slightly different names: `visual` becomes
`ring-bell-visual`, `t` becomes `ring-bell-beep`, `nil` becomes `ignore` and
`alarm-bell` becomes `ring-bell-function`.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 14:30:36 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 10:30:36 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59354 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZDsC-0002yV-2I for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:30:36 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f169.google.com ([209.85.215.169]:40870) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lZDsA-0002yG-HQ for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:30:35 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f169.google.com with SMTP id b17so30008422pgh.7 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DHtsqPtIAjAYvgKSrFmNWYpUWg9CLf/XSJUJiIrVPSg=; b=WVDAw5rNOj91FS3cEpZNdUWjmhRA+M1PlazrfJbpB4UI6iO8EHj+hQsagjk7aN7/i2 ks8X8tUMcW+xNLQcI2din3gNZXDa9Ji9RafZO5tbje65X9DsuOGcn1bNCnBFZYY/i0U+ Il38hE6km4F8ft/zO/JSFNllM0znGw59+cn0eYEPZ5l1OOu8D6RZJHsdLsinbV0pOQrx iorwMzgyxDWpBVxwZ/1lgCNN5QSBf+aUdDo7gNN5bOIlJx6hwLhAR7QNov6MI2YYZwib Y4UV0hQjUzBRj5qLYb/OGzNVFagvnwq6RgDhhbXaUl+5k6iUbF4j5/QQ4GENw+lk0LiO SkTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53299neiKqQByNCaTqJ4BvVGR8VKD+FwPTvD6e21aGxMQLAkge/+ 1uIUdF1VkriQ+Y2N+85oW0MPeKa7xw5GjdGnP54= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJOMJN2zPXXw4cSXfuiT/W44CZ8F9LbAbuuVuUunDeWBiQ4K+/LlQEnAneeajW3zpd9JNWiWRjRof/kx6Gi3k= X-Received: by 2002:a63:a16:: with SMTP id 22mr8337811pgk.345.1619015428654; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:30:28 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <192e82f20fbb3e50ce0c@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <192e82f20fbb3e50ce0c@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:30:28 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkm=iT_xtDeaRxAU_YNHm_=1x_0VQo2z=hS96y9vtXMzVWQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: >> For my money, the Doom idea, to flash the mode line in a different >> color, is the most good looking one. It is also hard to miss, and >> doesn't risk hiding or obscuring the minibuffer. > > IMO having a default bell that changes the the mode-line on every error is > a recipe for disaster. There are too many packages that do all kinds of > stuff with the mode-line. That would just be bugs to be fixed though, right? Most likely in those packages themselves. >> I have used this for a couple of days and find it strictly better than >> both the default behavior on GNU/Linux with inverse video and flashing >> the minibuffer background. >> > > Did you try the patch I sent? Yes, of course. I provided detailed comments in a previous post.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 14:12:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 10:12:34 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59304 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZDak-0002Un-9i for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:12:34 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-f46.google.com ([209.85.218.46]:41593) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lZDah-0002UY-J4 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:12:33 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-f46.google.com with SMTP id mh2so42178248ejb.8 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:12:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=keU7vwHjTXlBwzqkVH61DBdsUiDGrvyCycnz6NRZtdo=; b=VCOY9NGpZ3Km0abfE6gH0hpqjJdQlAVH20+QK581yZ32vbPRS0JDFREGFDIvZTjOt7 e4wMQgEuVYIn6IR5iUeupGRpWWTnHhY+xBrxiHcKfS3z+1QviojnEQbetiEi2f5eh4DN zO4l3PcpWctq104oV7Im8N4XC/+gYbHwTJIh45lu5pIofFftOqfQZ3jruNvJEvyUnhMJ t6oXJ14MfzU3HWU+4vouu/t0db+pbCqvkqdtrOTZ6sAzFI+U7frUrev9icNztKPputx7 Y1GbRMwzVNGPxUOGOLtSRcmjefBG53mUYdIV/23tsSCzmCafALIRZ5wZ6kU3uOTp4NQD lhRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=keU7vwHjTXlBwzqkVH61DBdsUiDGrvyCycnz6NRZtdo=; b=IXZGXKEqqTAtGuGs8WLYexSsIuUWmPI3FQjBXrieNV5jG23Axou8wO1GnV4wvegy32 PmlpZCI6WHCYhI0hmxqvRtqaZVae+1EkFhdG0DWeOSVu0Lvdh73xEOm0ZTBkut7Sn1G4 NiDCyOrZMdY+I/y9JIQzv0gEn0/IXWCZkNNUup9J+mtLAf1QDvAkI8j5O2/KHfP/kZfa ch340KHaU2ObopjgHVx65mjBC4Re/Io1eVuJvp8V8Olvlw1fP7B3Uq4aPydLaMIvsyaa N58WR/tDtHAs+nAX+Icq6pW/ggHvqXZ6/2/e1tawy7TwGWydx7h+JOaHx0ki5FfQRSn3 Sfhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530rMJBr5SS1aXjjnhbm81KSPPiayEDq9m96GUKxfSNkvR5B+avn 33mqlMc+6lLy1BXapVh4yX4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy9SEOiMMSwG6tM3UDgmCATW+V4Eb0YKAEvyLQ5KRGu0vk10ZvD7kgSawLHhv3AVZLEoRaxeA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:b28c:: with SMTP id q12mr33550148ejz.284.1619014345856; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id l6sm2614466ejc.92.2021.04.21.07.12.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 21 Apr 2021 07:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> <192e82f20fbb3e50ce0c@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <fbeccfb3-9c59-9c39-84a3-1472a1afa8a4@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 17:12:22 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <192e82f20fbb3e50ce0c@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 21.04.2021 17:05, Gregory Heytings wrote: > You mean, that it's "a proven behavior with no significant complaints"? > I'd be very surprised if many GNU/Linux users did set visible-bell to t. > What I see is that it's not the default behavior, and that most popular > starter kits disable the bell completely. Most starter kit maintainers are using macOS, unfortunately. That must affect their choice of default.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 14:05:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 10:05:26 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59300 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZDTq-0002Kc-HH for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:05:26 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47370) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lZDTk-0002KP-Tu for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:05:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1619013919; bh=Ju6NzA98Qq9Rvl6uX9bKHyztGpvLjQX0FoRQ0Tw9Msw=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=dDGu/UginuJbfqEUZr87FNhR+nHajRDQpPnyhfX0BA26IumS1gIzOY/6LshngYgnX KLzqRNpwUWSPRtjnHXvBv/DvtEV2/4DcMKObJtQkZ5VMf6pAN6O5dpskn9mivtiYSQ ATDoGX0f6Y/Vw1vznFocqhcYkUH1SrXhX8QmSlloyxkZrvLHsOftKuWbQ0dahpSYAn Mtih/DWrGfQGqWR1RZ863eqA8E+8OqFKf2bvwNHJTf0V//htackUcajc66exsKzCyi 4nqS6DUIYIybL6ZmlV9fuQrS5fsZkkAUfIJpttyZMLX1DjW/ET95GGLw8N1eRUX0F1 D/Ns+SZDH4hNQ== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 14:05:19 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <192e82f20fbb3e50ce0c@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>> My #1 preference would be to make it all behave like (setq >>> visible-bell t) on GNU/Linux does. This way we both get a proven >>> behavior with no significant complaints, as well as consistency across >>> platforms. >> >> I understand that you're accustomed to what visible-bell t does on >> GNU/Linux, but frankly, its ugly. Ask their opinion to non-Emacs users >> about that bell, I'd be surprised if they like it. > > That's a good point, IMO. But Dmitry's argument is also fairly > compelling. > You mean, that it's "a proven behavior with no significant complaints"? I'd be very surprised if many GNU/Linux users did set visible-bell to t. What I see is that it's not the default behavior, and that most popular starter kits disable the bell completely. > > For my money, the Doom idea, to flash the mode line in a different > color, is the most good looking one. It is also hard to miss, and > doesn't risk hiding or obscuring the minibuffer. > IMO having a default bell that changes the the mode-line on every error is a recipe for disaster. There are too many packages that do all kinds of stuff with the mode-line. > > I have used this for a couple of days and find it strictly better than > both the default behavior on GNU/Linux with inverse video and flashing > the minibuffer background. > Did you try the patch I sent?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:11:04 -0500
Message-ID: <CADwFkmkSQH+=HuDyZcpWOOonRPWh8h6YTyfs-H1rJJ6xEUeyDA@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>
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Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN,
monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
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Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes:
> Yes, it's perhaps a bit unfortunate that "visible-bell" is nil in this
> case, but note that with visible-bell t and ring-bell-function ignore you
> also do not have what you could expect. The semantics of visible-bell and
> ring-bell-function are a bit unclear, but they cannot be fixed anymore
> without introducing backward incompatible changes.
I think this is a bit of a mess, indeed.
I would be in favour of fixing this by adding one or more new variables
with reasonable semantics. For example, why not have a variable called
`alarm-bell' with these valid values:
- a function call this function
- `visual' Use a visual bell
- t Ring the bell
- nil Do nothing
We should be able to do that while declaring the old variables obsolete,
and preserving their semantics meanwhile, especially given that both
`visible-bell' and `ring-bell-function' is nil by default.
>> My #1 preference would be to make it all behave like (setq visible-bell
>> t) on GNU/Linux does. This way we both get a proven behavior with no
>> significant complaints, as well as consistency across platforms.
>
> I understand that you're accustomed to what visible-bell t does on
> GNU/Linux, but frankly, its ugly. Ask their opinion to non-Emacs users
> about that bell, I'd be surprised if they like it.
That's a good point, IMO. But Dmitry's argument is also fairly
compelling.
For my money, the Doom idea, to flash the mode line in a different
color, is the most good looking one. It is also hard to miss, and
doesn't risk hiding or obscuring the minibuffer.
I have used this for a couple of days and find it strictly better than
both the default behavior on GNU/Linux with inverse video and flashing
the minibuffer background.
Did anyone have any objections to doing it that way?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 06:47:32 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 21 02:47:32 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56812 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZ6e3-0000pi-M1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 02:47:32 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:46876) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lZ6e1-0000pY-Ht for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 02:47:30 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618987647; bh=qWS+0pj6Cq1Vr8wPX3/BqCgZRk3ca09aK6Yiu+pub3Q=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=HxqXJHVIcTSiPjYiTpiR1LLKRD5skYfTJ2+hrSOldHpd1u5VutF+JBahlajn4v0nL 2sVGJ5g4cAaFeMe494zI2EESy++xOkYkriog/KFDfyHWwzZ5aA9YNMyoSraN34AEdN WpVz/TCFGygXkt1s9MBE61NRAPXMo8xur0a4PlR/eQ7VMtbQ5rBtnsKD+QQ4x02+O+ paFT+0H4PIuvMs3phI7jS1cdpBDyU23JqdHQDUA4AWjL8g8vbgLo4kRYlczZs0qbVA /GbolV7GCbPuPZ/foW+jSL3iw3nST+ipO87yIR9BSo/9mqLxrnDULDQqCCsHOMuEaO uhWiXZCs3FVtg== Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:47:27 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <192e82f20f5deb690394@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="QnLsfEgGj1" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --QnLsfEgGj1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> And it turns the cursor red irreversibly in my config (but not in=20 >>> 'emacs -Q'). >>=20 >> That's rather strange, color-bell--cursor-background is saved only=20 >> once, when visual-bell is called for the first time.=C2=A0 I'll try to= =20 >> reproduce the issue, but some more detailed information (e.g. with=20 >> debug-on-variable-change) would be welcome. > > I'll try bisecting when I have the time. In any case, it's just an=20 > implementation bug, not a blocker. > Does the attached patch fix the problem in your config? It is probably=20 safer to check the cursor color each time color-bell is entered. >>> Is nobody bothered by having this kind of visual indication while=20 >>> 'visible-bell' is nil, though? >>=20 >> It's easy to turn off, as indicated in NEWS: (setq ring-bell-function=20 >> nil). > > I mean, like, semantically: this new proposal is also visual/visible. > > But 'visible-bell' is nil. > Yes, it's perhaps a bit unfortunate that "visible-bell" is nil in this=20 case, but note that with visible-bell t and ring-bell-function ignore you= =20 also do not have what you could expect. The semantics of visible-bell and= =20 ring-bell-function are a bit unclear, but they cannot be fixed anymore=20 without introducing backward incompatible changes. >> And IMO this is way better than the current situation, in which the=20 >> default behavior depends on too many parameters that are outside the=20 >> control of Emacs, in which the available options are different=20 >> depending on the platform, and in which on certain platforms none of=20 >> the available options are good. > > My #1 preference would be to make it all behave like (setq visible-bell= =20 > t) on GNU/Linux does. This way we both get a proven behavior with no=20 > significant complaints, as well as consistency across platforms. > I understand that you're accustomed to what visible-bell t does on=20 GNU/Linux, but frankly, its ugly. Ask their opinion to non-Emacs users=20 about that bell, I'd be surprised if they like it. --QnLsfEgGj1 Content-Type: text/x-diff; name=New-default-bell.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <192e82f20f4f90aaee6f@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=New-default-bell.patch RnJvbSAyMWYyYTk5NDZjNzBkODk3MzY0OGZhM2RmYjMwYzgyNzMyZWE2ODJl IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogR3JlZ29yeSBIZXl0 aW5ncyA8Z3JlZ29yeUBoZXl0aW5ncy5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBXZWQsIDIxIEFw ciAyMDIxIDA2OjM2OjA2ICswMDAwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIE5ldyBk ZWZhdWx0IGJlbGwuDQoNCiogbGlzcC9zaW1wbGUuZWwgKGNvbG9yLWJlbGwp OiBOZXcgZGVmYXVsdCBiZWxsLCB3aGljaCBicmllZmx5IGZsYXNoZXMNCnRo ZSBjdXJzb3IgYW5kIHRoZSBlY2hvIGFyZWEgd2hlbiBhbiBlcnJvciBvY2N1 cnMuDQooY29sb3ItYmVsbC1lY2hvLWFyZWEtZmFjZSwgY29sb3ItYmVsbC1j dXJzb3ItZmFjZSk6IE5ldyBmYWNlcy4NCihjb2xvci1iZWxsLWlnbm9yZWQt ZXJyb3JzLCBjb2xvci1iZWxsLWR1cmF0aW9uKTogTmV3IHVzZXIgb3B0aW9u cy4NCg0KKiBzcmMvZXZhbC5jIChsYXN0LWVycm9yLXN5bWJvbCwgbGFzdC1l 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 01:16:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 20 21:16:14 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56492 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lZ1TR-00084k-Qa for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:16:14 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f45.google.com ([209.85.128.45]:50801) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lZ1TP-0007yB-Td for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:16:12 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f45.google.com with SMTP id u187so1736041wmb.0 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0c9mMI1n9Y4KIds0aVGtXBct3sJqKaHaHOY/XuBstw0=; b=skvhXqTchp+XkG06s8Vl6C315g1UFvSqN4xcc7vA9XJ4elXHConYPjPj+yfcGOH+VD z+FF26tGMKG8NpzMPq4O3+d4Sj6r7mDPJ6OLVj96m7P1vDIczNLzCSJ2i49FjznK9C03 sLBrpWpLhLeVWc6JYGL2PrdPgnwcggQ6oXM1Wff6FLshqBesO9L5wkXT1qLMJ7pElPkF QN4RidXf6aWcrP5duc4QnoRVm5xL7TBtLAkhOCzxKSXrbzgrTDRH2GSHhlhAo/rMF9BN 1PyVdEWTs7JUncuUBQr3QfTSzhMnChVZUuyutBiv38OEi6925VIJWLVg6ESlFX7X8YQK eGGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0c9mMI1n9Y4KIds0aVGtXBct3sJqKaHaHOY/XuBstw0=; b=QFiaegLqOvIFSCeO6hvo+lqiHlr0Z7u2NRENKptYlt7A3RL4o2gJyag+ppjbV7dRZx AuAgdPHcpZy6alfCTY6NmfcAsob21ARauBOE2A8npYnBpNFjfsZacCmBSLiVfLepugOZ SkOTmtZJI+qHFZkrtthtHf1cuvi65odzAC0bA+z8g0KsErJZltHkpdDlzj2PMAy3C8eF F7RAVmq2QGyth4aBjMNfWk5mERX9jPkp5XzaJsc3Y6eubQSel5aulNkb9S1ByyuelfX0 xofEIl3U8YI+znn4B4fyj108K/tOvXRTMAXSYPTjeDRywgIMrKyBbpCmeEkwDICNSy82 wCOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530S3nZ3pjZR5GJMTVBpehP6sN3Jw839FL+1LFmI1Fjimj76H7+f 7QP1NONfKC7Bf0tmUyUWFYQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz/OHtp5kySaaf2ZQpOkuSZvYiugdB8mi+6747KSk5Dsl21tZXpEmTVonnVm+yWO1Ea9MUHAA== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c312:: with SMTP id k18mr7082058wmj.89.1618967765846; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 18:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y11sm894832wro.37.2021.04.20.18.16.03 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Apr 2021 18:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 04:16:02 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 20.04.2021 22:19, Gregory Heytings wrote: > >> >> In general, I like it >> > > Thank you :-) > >> >> (though the concerns about colors are still there; perhaps just use >> inverse-video in GUI as well?). >> > > You mean, do what (setq visual-bell t) does? There's already an option > for that... Not on all platforms, though. >> And it turns the cursor red irreversibly in my config (but not in >> 'emacs -Q'). >> > > That's rather strange, color-bell--cursor-background is saved only once, > when visual-bell is called for the first time. I'll try to reproduce > the issue, but some more detailed information (e.g. with > debug-on-variable-change) would be welcome. I'll try bisecting when I have the time. In any case, it's just an implementation bug, not a blocker. >> Is nobody bothered by having this kind of visual indication while >> 'visible-bell' is nil, though? >> > > It's easy to turn off, as indicated in NEWS: (setq ring-bell-function > nil). I mean, like, semantically: this new proposal is also visual/visible. But 'visible-bell' is nil. > And IMO this is way better than the current situation, in which > the default behavior depends on too many parameters that are outside the > control of Emacs, in which the available options are different depending > on the platform, and in which on certain platforms none of the available > options are good. My #1 preference would be to make it all behave like (setq visible-bell t) on GNU/Linux does. This way we both get a proven behavior with no significant complaints, as well as consistency across platforms. But your proposal is a close second.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2021 19:19:44 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 20 15:19:44 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56038 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYvuR-0006FO-Of for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 15:19:44 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:46316) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYvuP-0006FG-VP for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 15:19:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618946380; bh=fD29d9oPnYGhW47mWeJbvsAiHQdaUbWHPVvwQd8f+6Q=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=RERe2mGq7RRIG2C8FP6TOdbPTuU30noP9ejBjFToGXeQa+LlEXu0fRqlfmWqUzcwT 2HuFQqfSu88ezCfq4slHplOlviTv49AHq7xQg0YLR13qL6efROqk3Zv5EF9SUi/K3C mqC2XL/hQyXp5H1YyWDL74wJxN0LeaA/gXJscwFTUI0xLdqZgubLXJlSs/h+rPBI5n 4OrrB14nN5VrpfGKqdxRFxZtaQ5tDbk5DtIT5837qc3NypJV1YEMKHBXWt0eFrJSGx /hEE5tnxWurrFqgD7A51tH2XPmJ+mxpnaQLkUEWJH+KLMSqvYkNUAb0LjTNxRBz6Y9 imgggC57t5KrQ== Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 19:19:40 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <a6e276cb035195168c7d@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > In general, I like it > Thank you :-) > > (though the concerns about colors are still there; perhaps just use > inverse-video in GUI as well?). > You mean, do what (setq visual-bell t) does? There's already an option for that... > > And it turns the cursor red irreversibly in my config (but not in 'emacs > -Q'). > That's rather strange, color-bell--cursor-background is saved only once, when visual-bell is called for the first time. I'll try to reproduce the issue, but some more detailed information (e.g. with debug-on-variable-change) would be welcome. > > Is nobody bothered by having this kind of visual indication while > 'visible-bell' is nil, though? > It's easy to turn off, as indicated in NEWS: (setq ring-bell-function nil). And IMO this is way better than the current situation, in which the default behavior depends on too many parameters that are outside the control of Emacs, in which the available options are different depending on the platform, and in which on certain platforms none of the available options are good.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2021 18:27:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 20 14:27:54 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55960 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYv6I-0004xZ-ES for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 14:27:54 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f46.google.com ([209.85.128.46]:42769) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lYv6H-0004xN-4q for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 14:27:53 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f46.google.com with SMTP id y5-20020a05600c3645b0290132b13aaa3bso8797442wmq.1 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 11:27:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Go/2H+tFSKStsNSwss3a0V5RHdD4G4TR6ul1/WQGKf8=; b=J/5YqKy0kuGrp9+bSWYiOr4XGPEtGQuOFOZ+3gsrVK1YjWcay2UZabM/luvt6hyo1X dzreIvAqnW5Swx9SKli5KsYJtf3Xa+LezTdslokpcC9qb6vbWt2L6dMT+qGyQKK0TqBT 269cScKGyy4MA55TPohxCmxlueRDXsUA3PIeJ3L8G52QrV6KijP3QoOwDVXvEhcOoZXT k13saAzIiefu8smOEyqHAevBXjXFpLcyhavMWFBOpLTcqs+uM5JbNKfpueHlYvBcREQ1 3WmT5L6v/FqGnVUo+lKTF0beSpQmhJ9uqvg18BmHQHI/TrJPWPpNZv1uToykMnq+AvFj 58+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Go/2H+tFSKStsNSwss3a0V5RHdD4G4TR6ul1/WQGKf8=; b=sm67OIp/Ahev3InamjxDJdYtCJiMlsVBxBs9gUzmzcFMM9sfR5pFnsQzQxg1qxj/KI ZEqGbru6GvYwunSjvsaAY8tLqVw/c9HTBNYLTgmW/Mf7FOckCzCiTntjdn5oRaJ1QbPs 3+t4YvZFq8PUOOfaavmRZcfzhOfFD3h/ZND86NeS+deLoKB72L2CDs4CVvZGHuMSGCQT +0kzT7PQ2BhRk/cQ8ycV3AdoT2aiKDwM3Y7ZKMiQiYXhLpN/eOUCGnyNufT4hIwrzgK9 mw9GOkiJ6drgyb0pyWiEmbD4KLh5zAhzFTdBtFF7gIaJQfGahy2/K9gx6SX2LjhVfmlx Lq3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Z7z23HYaOP1n8drb6up9d3LnvYY2ejGmR37SgTp99lMU2Ugzf EKJirKWDce22FqDzNbM3rH4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwaRHpllpaqw7xSSyntGri1RhyRDmVA/H2i6rV1hwJi9ehLwN0mxH86SEMlred8qqFWOBFEQw== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c7d2:: with SMTP id z18mr5806332wmk.104.1618943267263; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 11:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id 61sm30544127wrm.52.2021.04.20.11.27.44 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 20 Apr 2021 11:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <f6242b8d-b48f-97b6-09d9-64db90bc3006@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 21:27:43 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 20.04.2021 17:21, Gregory Heytings wrote: > > I attach a patch which implements a new default bell. > > It can't be pushed yet (my paperwork is still not finished :(), but > comments are welcome. In general, I like it (though the concerns about colors are still there; perhaps just use inverse-video in GUI as well?). And it turns the cursor red irreversibly in my config (but not in 'emacs -Q'). Is nobody bothered by having this kind of visual indication while 'visible-bell' is nil, though?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2021 14:21:36 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 20 10:21:36 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55696 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYrFw-0005Bw-5q for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:21:36 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:46020) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYrFt-0005Bn-D3 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 10:21:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618928491; bh=QFEGXmm8CzvunnPP6UiJUm0p5BH4k7Zpc8AJ2ZdDIiI=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=h3tOVNzqKYpbbwBdYNhzPTJtOo+0QnmqhEoZc4OcpY6Rn8R2c0p8bqNNColNiA5ml QizJ0I3J1vhQ6tiimmY6bcL5HR3RrST52nNzDYJkdi40jdo1fqNKd9WMErUGlgt+ve yewE0K0ZINLXHuWJ7BVzMwhzvZiTkj5h/iUKtcF5oQjSvsptOtog6T+V6ketuoHoCU 5qgHJjWLcclCknlH3Ubr/28Hd/yCinyUIq8PnuDJBjiOlTGcPuKi6JZbmL+ioq/E+D o76GkTU/2X/q8ygMSgaCpR1ZKCPRPQucCcMo1x2ni5QgaTWoM+nt6t0Wr5aEY0/aBs lZpIz8djqFaLg== Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 14:21:31 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <a6e276cb03af93fb74e4@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="kx8uSG7NCW" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --kx8uSG7NCW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed I attach a patch which implements a new default bell. It can't be pushed yet (my paperwork is still not finished :(), but comments are welcome. --kx8uSG7NCW Content-Type: text/x-diff; name=New-default-bell.patch Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <a6e276cb0367c3620f3e@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=New-default-bell.patch RnJvbSAzZDBjYTliYmQzNWVmM2RkYzQxYTY4ZmVkMWVjN2FjZGRlMTRhMjY4 IE1vbiBTZXAgMTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQ0KRnJvbTogR3JlZ29yeSBIZXl0 aW5ncyA8Z3JlZ29yeUBoZXl0aW5ncy5vcmc+DQpEYXRlOiBUdWUsIDIwIEFw ciAyMDIxIDE0OjExOjI0ICswMDAwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbUEFUQ0hdIE5ldyBk ZWZhdWx0IGJlbGwuDQoNCiogbGlzcC9zaW1wbGUuZWwgKGNvbG9yLWJlbGwp OiBOZXcgZGVmYXVsdCBiZWxsLCB3aGljaCBicmllZmx5IGZsYXNoZXMNCnRo ZSBjdXJzb3IgYW5kIHRoZSBlY2hvIGFyZWEgd2hlbiBhbiBlcnJvciBvY2N1 cnMuDQooY29sb3ItYmVsbC1lY2hvLWFyZWEtZmFjZSwgY29sb3ItYmVsbC1j dXJzb3ItZmFjZSk6IE5ldyBmYWNlcy4NCihjb2xvci1iZWxsLWlnbm9yZWQt ZXJyb3JzLCBjb2xvci1iZWxsLWR1cmF0aW9uKTogTmV3IHVzZXIgb3B0aW9u cy4NCg0KKiBzcmMvZXZhbC5jIChsYXN0LWVycm9yLXN5bWJvbCwgbGFzdC1l 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 14:41:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 10:41:47 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51557 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYV5v-0008JH-Br for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 10:41:47 -0400 Received: from outbound.soverin.net ([116.202.65.218]:60573) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <alan@HIDDEN>) id 1lYV5q-0008J0-5L for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 10:41:46 -0400 Received: from smtp.soverin.net (unknown [10.10.3.28]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by outbound.soverin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF5A46028A; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:41:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.soverin.net (smtp.soverin.net [159.69.232.142]) by soverin.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=idiocy.org; s=soverin; t=1618843294; bh=4eUCl8kAiiLvoP5lOFdMDAV1752TZ1KHfdfqi6g1dV0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=CEUpTcLZMl8mZ9kY7FZigidYijEXmrwmhDNmG2zo2Ei7hHvm87NDUgyCDxeZ9kykE 0+WNKvLJOsvqBU4d+qLlnANyCNoPgOqGjuFiGuh1wuCzPQucgPJ58F47V4X10uL7gq 8Zr7SxxMeTld7C7xA+pTlHhZhcM4pxLKgSmuMTDdCMJPUy9KCsmrnmoPvf7UeZukbg Pd5FAuJrpmW/LDuFJX1SDnJdt84JBodknBTujTLRYkpjSvjcetwTqB+53lcZlJbDfy w/6RlqE0K6ANlayRVTuC5YeQWhs2AYjBnaIFOncbDkdXFXjbbN4mtpr+2ATCgqiEF8 +QI0KGNDhghUA== Received: by breton.holly.idiocy.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 20F8E202BD3DD1; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 15:41:23 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 15:41:23 +0100 From: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Message-ID: <YH2Wk0ix6dxJ7J/m@HIDDEN> Mail-Followup-To: Alan Third <alan@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> References: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 01:16:00PM +0000, Gregory Heytings wrote: > > > > > The huge exclamation icon, is that the one? Looks too much indeed. > > > > Yes, that's the one. And yes, that's too much. There's some discussion in bug#22746 about the macOS visual bell. Mostly just people not being happy with it. -- Alan Third
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
Message-ID: <jwvlf9ewezk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
<1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN>
<875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN>
<87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN>
<874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN>
<87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN>
<87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN>
<a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN>
<c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN>
<CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN>
<87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN>
<fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN>
<87zgxumo7y.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 10:03:38 -0400
In-Reply-To: <87zgxumo7y.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon,
19 Apr 2021 14:51:45 +0200")
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Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>,
Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN,
Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>
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> users should complain more. :-)
We make customization too easy.
Same with ELisp packages: it's too easy to work around a problem with
some `fboundp` or `condition-case` duct-tape, so the package authors
aren't encouraged to report problems to us (especially since even if we
fix the problem, they'll still need the duct-tape until our fix
trickles down to all their users).
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 13:37:35 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 09:37:35 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48847 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYU5n-0001jO-Cg for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:37:35 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-f48.google.com ([209.85.218.48]:37732) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lYU5i-0001j9-Gy for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:37:33 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-f48.google.com with SMTP id w3so53006587ejc.4 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:37:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=k9zBPEAGbJxP+j8DZeb/T9jEYpx5+rEzeOoQN4MBWK8=; 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Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id n14sm10436351ejy.90.2021.04.19.06.37.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <13aea0d5-e8fa-39cb-ad69-1fabc7d72d16@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 16:37:21 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 19.04.2021 16:16, Gregory Heytings wrote: > >> >> 'match' for purposes other than matching? >> > > Why not? That would be only a default value, to call the user's > attention that the reason of the error is displayed there. IMO using > yellow for that purpose is much better than green (highlight face). Perhaps I'm just used to the 'inverse-video' effect on GNU/Linux, but that monochrome effect (having black and white switch places on two lines of the frame) is both noticeable but not alarming. >> And speaking of 'error', seeing red is most likely more obtrusive than >> the current GNU/Linux behavior. >> > > Do you really mean that seeing the cursor becoming red during 0.25 > seconds is obtrusive? The cursor itself will be a mild disturbance, the colorful flash at the bottom should be a tad more jarring. I'm not sure if red is a good choice, though. After all, the action we just performed (abort/quit) does not necessarily imply any kind of error. > The current GNU/Linux default behavior is (for those who use Gnome or > KDE and have not disabled the system bell) to ring the system bell > (typically during 0.5 seconds). That's IMO far more obtrusive (in > particular for your colleagues!) than seeing the cursor becoming red and > the echo area flashing during a fourth of a second. I'm comparing to the (setq visible-bell t) behavior on GNU/Linux.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 13:30:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 09:30:53 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48832 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYTzJ-00007F-I0 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:30:53 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:44704) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTzH-0008WB-E5 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:30:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618839050; bh=Puu8XBrqGfXcUwEfsobxj/FsqWMGbheWA1aFeNQ07xQ=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=AvZCy/PdC00o4TH4hVsg1Vt6HSWMCDora2TgAjZjoxjwr40dZNdeBSV9unjNNeK+Q 1AZ07+2dG0SmbvEMeIerGvKbQs/bmV77pxxePRdILuEuCrr+K7Jggs2ITkFU2sOe4m PbQ0Ri5iwHhNIUrBGgXzQIBQ27CkMLSVN15VcRV3kifVS/GNjAlEmbGq6ypjVOsvVW 4QVLxXSiU3d42aRB/A8LAEpYOVSlwrzK7T93xwed5I0RabhosKinShUT4pv40GJei2 rEFN3MGjhhRAiAEMqMSzPvqUMRD6WOsB50xuk43xZFSWPzHH3YOkDlQXnfsocZ29Gq wU95+NHOf/MaA== Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:30:49 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <87h7k2o3fx.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <bb7c6f5fc9a19f535916@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvsg3n1url.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87tuo3ob5f.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmttv1m3u.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87h7k2o3fx.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Prelude and Spacemacs: > > (setq ring-bell-function 'ignore) > > If I understand correctly, this doesn't set `visible-bell', but only > uses the default value (which is nil). So changing the default will > indeed affect these users (until the distributions update themselves to > set visible-bell to nil). > Hmmm... No, setting ring-bell-function to ignore means that ignore is executed to ring the bell instead of the default behavior. With ring-bell-function non-nil, visible-bell is ignored.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
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References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>,
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>>> It's more intrusive than what many people are using -- which is neither
>>> an audible nor a visible bell, but just the echo area saying "Quit" when
>>> you hit `C-g' (etc).
>>
>> But those people won't be affected by a change in the default.
>
> Dmitry's useful overview of the various distributions (thanks) had this,
> for instance:
>
> ---
> Prelude and Spacemacs:
>
> (setq ring-bell-function 'ignore)
> ---
>
> If I understand correctly, this doesn't set `visible-bell', but only
> uses the default value (which is nil). So changing the default will
> indeed affect these users (until the distributions update themselves to
> set visible-bell to nil).
Is this the scenario you have in mind?
(setq visible-bell t)
(setq ring-bell-function #'ignore)
(defun foo () (interactive) (ding))
M-x foo RET
This gives no visible bell here.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 13:16:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 09:16:07 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48770 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYTl1-00063r-BP for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:16:07 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:44662) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTkw-0005zF-98 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:16:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618838161; bh=dINfDsDfgdewT0L4f66jqxXGA0AHWjxTqcLrRVHiFYk=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=BKvvXl1kUjJMJXSC8f1lVTXe8zziSe18zsb5W8pKUecLYNhvR3BEcyCkAggJmUdux OHjr4OoaaUgcZ7+BE1mqq8xsxLcI3YnFHhn+vOJrl/KG3xPfgg7YIfnbqjKwih6eUA ngksHdPAUsSd5sbjFEJsXcmd504MZbVsC+ykbvngLuKhlR3SGBBIXO789T6b6QycUV DnloZFNG0Z50/dOKQfxwpv/sjOIAzhiD4u+wI28jbI/QKTQecBxhE/c30wMONG10AS uC7BkcZ9L7n8f91KGVyncCdUGu2/WMtryaMw5wjE0U9LPM0Ev/wAftYQ7Y9iqJRj6w DU/MQ6ZxL9HRQ== Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 13:16:00 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <bb7c6f5fc9b160791013@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > 'match' for purposes other than matching? > Why not? That would be only a default value, to call the user's attention that the reason of the error is displayed there. IMO using yellow for that purpose is much better than green (highlight face). > > And speaking of 'error', seeing red is most likely more obtrusive than > the current GNU/Linux behavior. > Do you really mean that seeing the cursor becoming red during 0.25 seconds is obtrusive? The current GNU/Linux default behavior is (for those who use Gnome or KDE and have not disabled the system bell) to ring the system bell (typically during 0.5 seconds). That's IMO far more obtrusive (in particular for your colleagues!) than seeing the cursor becoming red and the echo area flashing during a fourth of a second. > > The huge exclamation icon, is that the one? Looks too much indeed. > Yes, that's the one. And yes, that's too much.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 13:12:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 09:12:50 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48764 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYThk-0005CH-JY for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:12:50 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59736) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lYThh-0005Bz-6w for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:12:42 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:40138) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTha-0002C3-EY; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:12:34 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2110 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lYThZ-0001K6-5U; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:12:33 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 16:12:16 +0300 Message-Id: <83v98is9jj.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87v98imnzt.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:56:38 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v98imnzt.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Cc: stefan@HIDDEN, mwd@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, > 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN > Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:56:38 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > If you put a breakpoint inside tty_ring_bell, do you see that > > tty->TS_visible_bell is non-NULL or not? If it's non-NULL, perhaps > > the terminal emulator has that disabled somehow? > > Let's see... > > gdb) print tty->TS_visible_bell > $1 = 0x555555da95c3 "\033[?5h$<100/>\033[?5l" Then this should produce the same effect as "tput flash", I think.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 13:04:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 09:04:14 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48743 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYTZW-0004z3-BT for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:04:14 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-f50.google.com ([209.85.218.50]:34745) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTZT-0004ym-Ux for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:04:12 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-f50.google.com with SMTP id x12so32025796ejc.1 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:04:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eOrKRD1WH9w+q7ejaE7ahny7aA6C4+1Q6BkWlSwY4w8=; 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Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id p9sm12908356edu.79.2021.04.19.06.04.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvsg3n1url.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87tuo3ob5f.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmttv1m3u.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87h7k2o3fx.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <e13e84be-b5c4-3a08-225b-2bfca783d96b@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 16:04:03 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87h7k2o3fx.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 19.04.2021 15:37, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > --- > Prelude and Spacemacs: > > (setq ring-bell-function 'ignore) > --- > > If I understand correctly, this doesn't set `visible-bell', but only > uses the default value (which is nil). So changing the default will > indeed affect these users (until the distributions update themselves to > set visible-bell to nil). Their uses are pretty accustomed to change, though, and to having the distributions maintainers resolve this kind of issues.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id t7sm10363277ejo.120.2021.04.19.06.01.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Apr 2021 06:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <d7e90ac9-bf0b-bb54-1119-1f1833349b7b@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 16:01:24 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 19.04.2021 15:47, Gregory Heytings wrote: > >> >> While I like to have alternatives, and the ideas are good, the color >> (non-monochrome) flashes are both more noticeable than flashing top >> and bottom lines of the frame with inverse-video, and are likely to >> clash with different color themes out there. >> > > Not if we use the standard faces, e.g. error and match. 'match' for purposes other than matching? And speaking of 'error', seeing red is most likely more obtrusive than the current GNU/Linux behavior. A specific patch could convince otherwise, but the last yours I saw fell into that category (with the yellow flash at the bottom). >> >> The popular distributions out there are made by developers using >> macOS. You say the notification is different there (I haven't seen >> it). Perhaps it's indeed too much. >> > > I posted a screenshot upthread, here it is again. The huge exclamation icon, is that the one? Looks too much indeed.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 12:56:59 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 08:56:59 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48720 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYTSU-0004e3-US for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:56:59 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41470) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTSS-0004dn-ID for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:56:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=+Vl0QPBUT34/oRbZC2sJs47/95CE0ujo93WlTBThxA8=; b=kWctuPCz0hmRCP/7kQNIQnChiX QiTWRrSnEtWmunC+lSqsNgM034UsrQ9+oIC1tOle8swI5Yajdr6tqVrSTELbuGH1u9bPImWqV/Rnq hWjZnA3AXFKuuRvtScwrGNEJtc0oVnitS0Mxpdzl/+hwOdbpPOrA3XQR4sM+aHRdn+QA=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTSB-0007Iz-2X; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:56:48 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEUSJhhtjxEvTEcv WR+fphyptKZseXzu7+z///9wJuluAAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEwweFPrwbOYAAAGp SURBVDjLvZNNc4IwEIaD2OkVkB+gxI8r6rS9iqY925Gw59YJuVptzN/vboJS2zrTk5kAgSe777tJ YEGSsyAaRJyzmDMW8UWIo2zGHmSt3l7Kl62sX1VdV/IEwFprrAFDD+q7MHss3xFUml7BdRzBLhyP S0UACFgPjoCg1h8jl8p9B6BOqfhYfVYzNjKqkpWSSqlnJbFteDZLURwVdhMrMYmBbQftrsLMu5Kw pxxkAMGSQB5nOQOU0yh09CBBwBtg99AY23jgI7QzKjEXUgKRqzxHV2gKzaAjHIwWqhrJuqz8kjSl U1ujOXzHWG00LZV18mO9tlabiTVYINgW1LCmG0Y0qew5lV82SnWHwiWJOw9KVrgwTtwrgD2EFHVo d9DXBnCsHTgVOGP3PkJSgfo7eDKSpsJxYK2EC+A19oMfqYIk6wcJHZ9wxTN3fDxIheh1C7EYxrEQ cVzEgnsghFh18RqKU+t5MC2KfhCnq0GKs9NpkZ4igqTfD3Kn0eO059FZfN6KtztIgN8AzG8AblHH BVg2/8efEb9AwTvh8j9gfqmxuAq4P7vXwBfwRvQgZatAtQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAy MS0wNC0xOVQxMjozMDoyMCswMDowMI6V/wwAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMTlU MTI6MzA6MjArMDA6MDD/yEewAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Des Airs's _Crammed Global Soundcrash 1980-89, Part 2: Electrowave_: "Lovely Lady Of The Roses" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:56:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:23:57 +0300") Message-ID: <87v98imnzt.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > If you put a breakpoint inside tty_ring_bell, do you see that > tty->TS_visible_bell is non-NULL or not? If it's non-NULL, perhaps > the terminal emulator has that disabled somehow? Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > If you put a breakpoint inside tty_ring_bell, do you see that > tty->TS_visible_bell is non-NULL or not? If it's non-NULL, perhaps > the terminal emulator has that disabled somehow? Let's see... gdb) print tty->TS_visible_bell $1 = 0x555555da95c3 "\033[?5h$<100/>\033[?5l" -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 12:52:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 08:52:03 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48714 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYTNi-0004S1-TB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:52:03 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41430) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTNg-0004RT-0o for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:52:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=MIr5bsYVDEkvnbOqVRinsm0TfCR8qUNgZHOhrLNH9ug=; b=AiwkLd3A6zvjzXpEq7Ckupm7yR 0sLDc9SlHf79nIItm8FT1VCl4WhEPh4+5caRQev6riCg1WvWPx6ojC1Ip3MzHIzkW0X5fpvXMz0nF T7hUZJOFPXTBNyZjYuaPfLJcM6aq9zbMoiBHTWADFWcQkB/SfWeclW18OOXifxDIZCCY=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTNS-0007FN-GC; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:51:49 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEUSJhhtjxEvTEcv WR+fphyptKZseXzu7+z///9wJuluAAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEwweFPrwbOYAAAGp SURBVDjLvZNNc4IwEIaD2OkVkB+gxI8r6rS9iqY925Gw59YJuVptzN/vboJS2zrTk5kAgSe777tJ YEGSsyAaRJyzmDMW8UWIo2zGHmSt3l7Kl62sX1VdV/IEwFprrAFDD+q7MHss3xFUml7BdRzBLhyP S0UACFgPjoCg1h8jl8p9B6BOqfhYfVYzNjKqkpWSSqlnJbFteDZLURwVdhMrMYmBbQftrsLMu5Kw pxxkAMGSQB5nOQOU0yh09CBBwBtg99AY23jgI7QzKjEXUgKRqzxHV2gKzaAjHIwWqhrJuqz8kjSl U1ujOXzHWG00LZV18mO9tlabiTVYINgW1LCmG0Y0qew5lV82SnWHwiWJOw9KVrgwTtwrgD2EFHVo d9DXBnCsHTgVOGP3PkJSgfo7eDKSpsJxYK2EC+A19oMfqYIk6wcJHZ9wxTN3fDxIheh1C7EYxrEQ cVzEgnsghFh18RqKU+t5MC2KfhCnq0GKs9NpkZ4igqTfD3Kn0eO059FZfN6KtztIgN8AzG8AblHH BVg2/8efEb9AwTvh8j9gfqmxuAq4P7vXwBfwRvQgZatAtQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAy MS0wNC0xOVQxMjozMDoyMCswMDowMI6V/wwAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMTlU MTI6MzA6MjArMDA6MDD/yEewAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Peter Principle's _Crammed Global Soundcrash 1980-89, Part 2: Electrowave_: "The Observatory" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:51:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Mon, 19 Apr 2021 15:40:53 +0300") Message-ID: <87zgxumo7y.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: > If it was possible to port the (intended) behavior of the GNU/Linux > version to the other ports, that could be ideal (we don't hear many > complaints about it). > > The popular distributions out th [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: > If it was possible to port the (intended) behavior of the GNU/Linux > version to the other ports, that could be ideal (we don't hear many > complaints about it). > > The popular distributions out there are made by developers using > macOS. You say the notification is different there (I haven't seen > it). Perhaps it's indeed too much. It's... a lot, and we should fix it whatever else we decide to do. I don't remember anybody complaining about it, though -- users should complain more. :-) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 12:47:19 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 08:47:19 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48701 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYTJ9-0004JE-1Y for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:47:19 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:44582) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTJ6-0004J3-Lb for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:47:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618836435; bh=U815awi6OR4sMwbtZoW6JsacN8yCFMtjpyRAyrMQ/Ho=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=X/4IiuP4GWjXgP4PdlT2ovFgB2E1OUZNJPMT5wmWhZUYlYcZKmedDXb56qe5iOeEu oVJlLB6jS4kz3PPTSUUOwKIYmtKquqNFWYyaDR38siXXhCQ6Q8o3NfCsTJxUlsoxB/ QMo6hE7q9T1xu3C28K/khHPthIAq4Lu7eT3R8T+F/BFoP9tJIA2D3jvep4sDs/WjM6 yeMVFaorYpIPPMbDQx3NjhnA7doIf/lqFcaTNQtCN9DrZPiaJAg53MqJ4dAEtgS7aw MxrLp8oZIl3PnqiaICWZUsreSuXagqXBYHvK+/B7ABTDG0wYgIRgyONaK2WdhOFWvV mImsYkZfcWYOw== Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 12:47:15 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <bb7c6f5fc9b6af96a154@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="m30Ea0JWtw" X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> --m30Ea0JWtw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > While I like to have alternatives, and the ideas are good, the color > (non-monochrome) flashes are both more noticeable than flashing top and > bottom lines of the frame with inverse-video, and are likely to clash > with different color themes out there. > Not if we use the standard faces, e.g. error and match. > > The popular distributions out there are made by developers using macOS. > You say the notification is different there (I haven't seen it). Perhaps > it's indeed too much. > I posted a screenshot upthread, here it is again. --m30Ea0JWtw Content-Type: image/png; name=macos.png Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <bb7c6f5fc92136679d45@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=macos.png iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAABKYAAARqCAYAAAByNH0pAACAAElEQVR42uz9 eZwlSXXYi38jMvNutXRXd+09+z6CGZZhNhaB0AaSwLLMT2i3/J4/tp/fe7Jg BuwnZIEWhBAzgCzZz362pY+12bKQQAghyVpBMBvLDAgGGJiZ7p7p2qu6uqvu mhlxfn9EZN57a+mtqrtreiJmqu+9ucT3nIjIzIiTJ06oH/kvj4iIgAhZp0XW rFNTbW6cGOLayX3ccPkoV4ztp1Ypo7XGGEMURRhjQQSlFSgQKyjV/10phYig cJ9aa6wYlNJYawAFAEq5b+J/aoXSCpMZlFJorbBWAj/wAz/wAz/wAz/wAz/w Az/wAz/wAz/wA/85wD/ZaDCzdJKvHl3gidnjfH2hTsOWSAaG0EmJSEegNLGI IMaQtht01la4/ar9vOrmq3jxdZdhrEUrSDNDvV5HK+2lV4hyQBAQJxAiSK4k gBLEdhUXt8mdK267uOyKc0RAKc/w/4o/W4kK/MAP/MAP/MAP/MAP/MAP/MAP /MAP/MAP/D3MB4hRXD42xJVjw7yhXObzTzzD3375KJ87skh5cD9UaigdEYtJ ydIOcWedb7tlkje/+lbSNKNRr2MFFJZcBJQTE8Fbw7zgSoEISlEogXjZUL40 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Mon, 19 Apr 2021 05:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id a8sm25068076wrh.91.2021.04.19.05.40.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 19 Apr 2021 05:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <fc736263-aa76-03e0-96c1-fdc2a6eefe36@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 15:40:53 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 19.04.2021 15:33, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > >> No, only the foreground of the mode-line. > > I haven't seen this in action, but that sounds like a sensible variation > on visible-bell -- and should work well on most systems. While I like to have alternatives, and the ideas are good, the color (non-monochrome) flashes are both more noticeable than flashing top and bottom lines of the frame with inverse-video, and are likely to clash with different color themes out there. If it was possible to port the (intended) behavior of the GNU/Linux version to the other ports, that could be ideal (we don't hear many complaints about it). The popular distributions out there are made by developers using macOS. You say the notification is different there (I haven't seen it). Perhaps it's indeed too much.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 12:39:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 08:39:54 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48674 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYTBy-000444-5q for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:39:54 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41266) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTBw-00043q-Qz for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:39:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WPbrSUbSn0eru1/iD4J3zLL078G2wt5dWiNvKe6XjtU=; b=PMKxP5Bx/JzYEyt17lIDvE7PL8 xFhsagSiPo1VUVYB2S16ftPq397b4g/GaH1B2UZ61N+89KlhaLrz+evBOQTdj7UP/2LAAlS9BAYOc 7AJ2kesZXTm5lNSfslTNcHKMmc8L+HtcEV5YN0eprP4BXHC1M1u3nyTN+qov/zdTpPP8=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTBo-000798-0b; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:39:46 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn8e=qhE7E_pLESf8cxKRpxFV7KUpSz8bZ=_Xx6DBLseg@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEUSJhhtjxEvTEcv WR+fphyptKZseXzu7+z///9wJuluAAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEwweFPrwbOYAAAGp SURBVDjLvZNNc4IwEIaD2OkVkB+gxI8r6rS9iqY925Gw59YJuVptzN/vboJS2zrTk5kAgSe777tJ YEGSsyAaRJyzmDMW8UWIo2zGHmSt3l7Kl62sX1VdV/IEwFprrAFDD+q7MHss3xFUml7BdRzBLhyP S0UACFgPjoCg1h8jl8p9B6BOqfhYfVYzNjKqkpWSSqlnJbFteDZLURwVdhMrMYmBbQftrsLMu5Kw pxxkAMGSQB5nOQOU0yh09CBBwBtg99AY23jgI7QzKjEXUgKRqzxHV2gKzaAjHIwWqhrJuqz8kjSl U1ujOXzHWG00LZV18mO9tlabiTVYINgW1LCmG0Y0qew5lV82SnWHwiWJOw9KVrgwTtwrgD2EFHVo d9DXBnCsHTgVOGP3PkJSgfo7eDKSpsJxYK2EC+A19oMfqYIk6wcJHZ9wxTN3fDxIheh1C7EYxrEQ cVzEgnsghFh18RqKU+t5MC2KfhCnq0GKs9NpkZ4igqTfD3Kn0eO059FZfN6KtztIgN8AzG8AblHH BVg2/8efEb9AwTvh8j9gfqmxuAq4P7vXwBfwRvQgZatAtQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAy MS0wNC0xOVQxMjozMDoyMCswMDowMI6V/wwAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMTlU MTI6MzA6MjArMDA6MDD/yEewAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Tuxedomoon's _Crammed Global Soundcrash 1980-89, Part 2: Electrowave_: "Tritone" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:39:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmn8e=qhE7E_pLESf8cxKRpxFV7KUpSz8bZ=_Xx6DBLseg@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:12:00 -0500") Message-ID: <878s5eo3cg.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > >> I tried in both Console and xterm on this Debian/bullseye system, and >> `C-g' doesn't do anything visible to me with `visible-bell' switched >> on... [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > >> I tried in both Console and xterm on this Debian/bullseye system, and >> `C-g' doesn't do anything visible to me with `visible-bell' switched >> on... > > Did you try this in "xterm -vb"? I get flashing here when I use that > (my X Resources disables it so I need to use that flag). I can't see any differences here... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 12:39:16 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 08:39:16 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48671 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYTBL-00042z-Qf for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:39:16 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41236) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTBJ-00042j-UD for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:39:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=f26d+qzFvdVxyCh6QyJZ92GvF1sTDxad5A9O1fnrwjE=; b=jVdcklCAqbXLfeHeLD7xlQWxvo japbqs8WbwS6kSgOutRAPjl9T+OvsbcAZtauxPQv/GtDJMkZfXftQokneDi7fnpm05UeKGycHqpD/ IBpWa7i8WXn0szAuL7nBauJY1ZbZcoX6eY1Praf4Wm5AsbWGFIw8MiE2+9YiqR5ivGmU=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYTAt-00077j-JR; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:38:49 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zgxvtw3m.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEUSJhhtjxEvTEcv WR+fphyptKZseXzu7+z///9wJuluAAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEwweFPrwbOYAAAGp SURBVDjLvZNNc4IwEIaD2OkVkB+gxI8r6rS9iqY925Gw59YJuVptzN/vboJS2zrTk5kAgSe777tJ YEGSsyAaRJyzmDMW8UWIo2zGHmSt3l7Kl62sX1VdV/IEwFprrAFDD+q7MHss3xFUml7BdRzBLhyP S0UACFgPjoCg1h8jl8p9B6BOqfhYfVYzNjKqkpWSSqlnJbFteDZLURwVdhMrMYmBbQftrsLMu5Kw pxxkAMGSQB5nOQOU0yh09CBBwBtg99AY23jgI7QzKjEXUgKRqzxHV2gKzaAjHIwWqhrJuqz8kjSl U1ujOXzHWG00LZV18mO9tlabiTVYINgW1LCmG0Y0qew5lV82SnWHwiWJOw9KVrgwTtwrgD2EFHVo d9DXBnCsHTgVOGP3PkJSgfo7eDKSpsJxYK2EC+A19oMfqYIk6wcJHZ9wxTN3fDxIheh1C7EYxrEQ cVzEgnsghFh18RqKU+t5MC2KfhCnq0GKs9NpkZ4igqTfD3Kn0eO059FZfN6KtztIgN8AzG8AblHH BVg2/8efEb9AwTvh8j9gfqmxuAq4P7vXwBfwRvQgZatAtQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAy MS0wNC0xOVQxMjozMDoyMCswMDowMI6V/wwAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMTlU MTI6MzA6MjArMDA6MDD/yEewAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Tuxedomoon's _Crammed Global Soundcrash 1980-89, Part 2: Electrowave_: "Tritone" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:38:46 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87zgxvtw3m.fsf@HIDDEN> (Andreas Schwab's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:07:25 +0200") Message-ID: <87czuqo3e1.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> writes: > What does tput flash do? It flashes the terminal (both in Console and xterm). Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> writes: > What does tput flash do? It flashes the terminal (both in Console and xterm). -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 12:37:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 08:37:53 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48667 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYTA1-00040P-DR for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:37:53 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41190) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYT9w-000406-M6 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:37:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=hgeG8ibpiuDOFvzl+ieBOoW/s4dVDqBYZbzx7eRmty4=; b=gySfvmxOu1TdNJU2YZ0NRSQ9q4 BBTJ8wtwK3ehoufGmr03PLzHljn3ZfHmqnQIsnCRFtwpEvdxYlJ7pjHA3vt65S5Vt0wiOV3TgVIHn KPKq47yb+eVHRxobzw6qYZmQwrzkf4DYpqIyXen2zmEcXGkICN0ZASyqJRAC4PRubBrw=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYT9m-00077G-S5; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:37:41 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvsg3n1url.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87tuo3ob5f.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmttv1m3u.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEUSJhhtjxEvTEcv WR+fphyptKZseXzu7+z///9wJuluAAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEwweFPrwbOYAAAGp SURBVDjLvZNNc4IwEIaD2OkVkB+gxI8r6rS9iqY925Gw59YJuVptzN/vboJS2zrTk5kAgSe777tJ YEGSsyAaRJyzmDMW8UWIo2zGHmSt3l7Kl62sX1VdV/IEwFprrAFDD+q7MHss3xFUml7BdRzBLhyP S0UACFgPjoCg1h8jl8p9B6BOqfhYfVYzNjKqkpWSSqlnJbFteDZLURwVdhMrMYmBbQftrsLMu5Kw pxxkAMGSQB5nOQOU0yh09CBBwBtg99AY23jgI7QzKjEXUgKRqzxHV2gKzaAjHIwWqhrJuqz8kjSl U1ujOXzHWG00LZV18mO9tlabiTVYINgW1LCmG0Y0qew5lV82SnWHwiWJOw9KVrgwTtwrgD2EFHVo d9DXBnCsHTgVOGP3PkJSgfo7eDKSpsJxYK2EC+A19oMfqYIk6wcJHZ9wxTN3fDxIheh1C7EYxrEQ cVzEgnsghFh18RqKU+t5MC2KfhCnq0GKs9NpkZ4igqTfD3Kn0eO059FZfN6KtztIgN8AzG8AblHH BVg2/8efEb9AwTvh8j9gfqmxuAq4P7vXwBfwRvQgZatAtQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAy MS0wNC0xOVQxMjozMDoyMCswMDowMI6V/wwAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMTlU MTI6MzA6MjArMDA6MDD/yEewAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Zazou-Bikaye's _Crammed Global Soundcrash 1980-89, Part 2: Electrowave_: "M'Pasi Ya M'Pamba rmx" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:37:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: <jwvmttv1m3u.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:34:33 -0400") Message-ID: <87h7k2o3fx.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >> It's more intrusive than what many people are using -- which is neither >> an audible nor a visible bell, but just the echo area saying "Quit" when >> you hit `C-g' (etc). > > But those people won' [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >> It's more intrusive than what many people are using -- which is neither >> an audible nor a visible bell, but just the echo area saying "Quit" when >> you hit `C-g' (etc). > > But those people won't be affected by a change in the default. Dmitry's useful overview of the various distributions (thanks) had this, for instance: --- Prelude and Spacemacs: (setq ring-bell-function 'ignore) --- If I understand correctly, this doesn't set `visible-bell', but only uses the default value (which is nil). So changing the default will indeed affect these users (until the distributions update themselves to set visible-bell to nil). > The only people which would see a "more intrusive" bell is those who > keep the default settings but whose environment ends up muting the > audible bell. I don't know how common this is. Me neither -- but just as a data point: In Gnome Shell the customisation element for switching "system sounds" off is prominent, so my guess would be that it's something people do use. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2021 12:33:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Apr 19 08:33:54 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48661 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYT66-0003tG-Ir for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:33:54 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:41080) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYT61-0003sq-UA for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 08:33:49 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=3W/3d1Y2uOJB7Pg7qE7i8WXXNYupVKx5zBNgp7vrPcI=; b=EwYql4cKJk2wMzxT4PKYacBW34 8BwJbGmU+JAUu6B1mkGKO9NlMOwsIjx8jRBlLmsYbQ1LphC3LB68BLg/OOxX5oAaNZHJ1AeM+yEy+ TyGgvOMYADS00Mu2GQ4KpXVFyPcV0apoVIFKwD751CM4fdHzVbwrsj+/dw582uy8u988=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lYT5q-00075y-GL; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:33:36 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEUSJhhtjxEvTEcv WR+fphyptKZseXzu7+z///9wJuluAAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEwweFPrwbOYAAAGp SURBVDjLvZNNc4IwEIaD2OkVkB+gxI8r6rS9iqY925Gw59YJuVptzN/vboJS2zrTk5kAgSe777tJ YEGSsyAaRJyzmDMW8UWIo2zGHmSt3l7Kl62sX1VdV/IEwFprrAFDD+q7MHss3xFUml7BdRzBLhyP S0UACFgPjoCg1h8jl8p9B6BOqfhYfVYzNjKqkpWSSqlnJbFteDZLURwVdhMrMYmBbQftrsLMu5Kw pxxkAMGSQB5nOQOU0yh09CBBwBtg99AY23jgI7QzKjEXUgKRqzxHV2gKzaAjHIwWqhrJuqz8kjSl U1ujOXzHWG00LZV18mO9tlabiTVYINgW1LCmG0Y0qew5lV82SnWHwiWJOw9KVrgwTtwrgD2EFHVo d9DXBnCsHTgVOGP3PkJSgfo7eDKSpsJxYK2EC+A19oMfqYIk6wcJHZ9wxTN3fDxIheh1C7EYxrEQ cVzEgnsghFh18RqKU+t5MC2KfhCnq0GKs9NpkZ4igqTfD3Kn0eO059FZfN6KtztIgN8AzG8AblHH BVg2/8efEb9AwTvh8j9gfqmxuAq4P7vXwBfwRvQgZatAtQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAy MS0wNC0xOVQxMjozMDoyMCswMDowMI6V/wwAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMTlU MTI6MzA6MjArMDA6MDD/yEewAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Zazou-Bikaye's _Crammed Global Soundcrash 1980-89, Part 2: Electrowave_: "M'Pasi Ya M'Pamba rmx" Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:33:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:14:46 -0500") Message-ID: <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > No, only the foreground of the mode-line. I haven't seen this in action, but that sounds like a sensible variation on visible-bell -- and should work well on most systems. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > No, only the foreground of the mode-line. I haven't seen this in action, but that sounds like a sensible variation on visible-bell -- and should work well on most systems. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 19:19:09 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 15:19:09 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47859 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYCwm-0001Bi-T4 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:19:09 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:43702) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYCwl-0001Ba-Hj for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:19:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618773546; bh=hInaqvB/DpEGcsIOzJn/gMiNfAeok7k53aGsMurF5Z8=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=tYjYdrHZ0FOZTgl13Uu9joQG6J8yibCGWnDiQe3AjG+YhhleYfH38RU3YbBB0/ox1 IDB3/7Te1taw0CLKW1xz9a9KEanLwiXsUagODbuyR3nZNRiqdsT/0g8+paRAlunq1X WBYjTUKTwZ/wSU1WeidliZm0yGPUq/nwTqkACD+VWJ4jrZ3eDyKtR8YqPAB94GcLXs 0gBpid5xcvz6/FQxuch49UtPyd21iMJdLxT3Mbnvd7NhPpW9Y6cZQz2BWFfyhC0zGJ 3QNSX66VdC0RI+ukilPUHF4V6mulSs6SbPI0lk41lGgwDku7k4iBFlZNaYt12/N6z2 fBEHZruZmEUIw== Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 19:19:06 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmm116wUkXnm0eqiwQeggpu-DerqUcc9M=LXz-=b5+3hhg@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c40b32b1f8b928da2451@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8e2fba7fb9a@HIDDEN> <83fszntt1u.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8accd57d982@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm116wUkXnm0eqiwQeggpu-DerqUcc9M=LXz-=b5+3hhg@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Eli is correct, 0.25 is far too long. 0.1 is much better. That is also > closer to the duration of the current behavior for `visible-bell' on > GNU/Linux (in fact, there is no reason not to use the exact same > duration as before). > FTR, the duration of the current visible-bell on GNU/Linux is 0.2 seconds.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 19:04:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 15:04:13 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47828 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYCiK-0000mv-TH for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:04:13 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f177.google.com ([209.85.214.177]:40708) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lYCiI-0000mh-L9 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:04:11 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f177.google.com with SMTP id 20so12608767pll.7 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:04:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R+2WNGGhMQT8E+5lLMVZZ06w2yVM+QdFY1SWu/yTq7k=; b=D/XzTUOeChfoWADbHr6eZ/hzKSv/W98jJFOLfCc0lje6KxiXJg7cookmuVEHC416AJ EQN5MlPgvpFqgy9kmu+Q9GZGaSKrIM54ISFLAiriijVCMWtO08wiserOjzZ6zVPUHclE /mFsiqfpCbOIykZHx53zpP9QnWmCjl1Rjspg8ES9RaLPlgX/UogL8D7t4uKqRTH0ADqf HmZo2zh6dpdA/EZnJ52nwukJip0lV6TYKryddJwVuVvQmgcXpMLYnTM45mmQryQeRHzO kSohnJfzWSA9P/uhe5YWdR7KiMAo7TonU1nY5umk1kVRx2UaMzTanmfYzm3kyLnVwpvY reYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531EiccZY+5WcUMgwJBOPkmvpz44rwsvV2RfthPlBu0u3F3MF1VS gZWEHEDsFaUz7/OkNYn1TKfY+pjgPIhfm1XG30o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxQzhqGVywufe1ltnwMZSalFaJ+hHGqPAiCgd7NXfWVat40aDnhpEZn4B9hZ0H7onbe0dqCuLm+vGPwD2yyTkY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:19ca:: with SMTP id nm10mr21256256pjb.175.1618772644994; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:04:04 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <c40b32b1f85328c78646@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8e2fba7fb9a@HIDDEN> <83fszntt1u.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8accd57d982@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm116wUkXnm0eqiwQeggpu-DerqUcc9M=LXz-=b5+3hhg@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f85328c78646@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:04:04 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmmLbouNQwyQEZ96bh7mdn21nyH8cPU23gYdRRTL5HDMMg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: >> Eli is correct, 0.25 is far too long. 0.1 is much better. >> > > He said 0.5 is too long, I tried 0.1, and find it too short to be noticed, > so I tried 0.25, which seems okay from my point of view. Hmm, I find the flashing effect to be noticeable even with 0.03 or 0.05, but I did also change the colour to red which is more visible to my eyes. But yes, we can't go too low. I suggest just using the same value as with the old visible bell, whatever that may be. >> In comparison with the old GNU/Linux behavior, your patch is basically >> as good or better. However, with your patch I have to wait until the >> flashing is over to read the text at the bottom. This was not the case >> previously. I think that would need to be fixed. > > It's just a quick proof of concept, perhaps it's possible to do something > better, I'll try to do that if there's an agreement that it's a good > starting point. Sounds good, thanks for your work here. > That being said, I'd be surprised if you can move your > eye from point to the echo area in less than 0.25 seconds. What you > describe is annoying only if you already look at the echo area to see the > error. I don't know which if any eye-movement was or wasn't involved as I didn't carry out this experiment with any scientific rigor. ;-) So I can only tell you my experiences. With your patch I found myself having to wait to see the text at the bottom, which was frustrating when I expected to see it immediately. This was the case also with a 0.1 second delay: I saw first a block of red text before the text popped up.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 18:45:19 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 14:45:19 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47772 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYCQ2-0006aQ-QF for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:45:19 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:43642) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYCPw-0006a9-OB for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:45:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618771511; bh=cbZ2xH3nMPzkfRKZFLTjZNqutUDnem6hELY/v8Zeros=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=csyOHO1X3nrx7og2HwjbLS5fL9lfXqdJM5fbyeteaUpFdnijH+hf2Z8mB1jnvX57o /F5/O9hYn1Ovc5fXszDAAsgr+c21YRFw7gHGKI7jA9laGtphusma43C1XeG+Y//gcW ALlzr7vz//Wqkp2c7HynH3J1T8Be5ECLC+UJbnSqafzhKT1a0RVQGfWWguGUzv5ooK 6y1mG8qdQZGycoP5jqr4asKCTUK6GcdtaqBFJ+Ap/Yfd6PTdp1aXh2afz5GDIO1huq zbSW+sI5ajkBNkycJkOJjyLCBAqCL00c70fuI0U2yy3vsDVZVnVLmBo6LWqJiNPIZd J/l5xwon4coGg== Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:45:11 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmm116wUkXnm0eqiwQeggpu-DerqUcc9M=LXz-=b5+3hhg@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c40b32b1f85328c78646@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8e2fba7fb9a@HIDDEN> <83fszntt1u.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8accd57d982@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm116wUkXnm0eqiwQeggpu-DerqUcc9M=LXz-=b5+3hhg@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Eli is correct, 0.25 is far too long. 0.1 is much better. > He said 0.5 is too long, I tried 0.1, and find it too short to be noticed, so I tried 0.25, which seems okay from my point of view. > > In comparison with the old GNU/Linux behavior, your patch is basically > as good or better. However, with your patch I have to wait until the > flashing is over to read the text at the bottom. This was not the case > previously. I think that would need to be fixed. > It's just a quick proof of concept, perhaps it's possible to do something better, I'll try to do that if there's an agreement that it's a good starting point. That being said, I'd be surprised if you can move your eye from point to the echo area in less than 0.25 seconds. What you describe is annoying only if you already look at the echo area to see the error. > > If we do eventually decide to go this way, perhaps we could include a > few variations, for example the idea of changing the mode-line text from > Doom could be added as optional behaviour. > FWIW, I'm not sure it's right to do that, it might interfere with packages which use the mode-line in exotic ways. Moreover what's the point of changing the color of the mode-line? It's distracting, what the user should be invited to look at at that moment is the echo area, where the error message is (about to be) displayed.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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And with a > sit-for, it's at most 0.5 seconds, when the user presses a key the bell > signal disappears. That being said, I agree with you that 0.5 seconds is > perhaps a bit too long, so I changed it to 0.25 seconds. Eli is correct, 0.25 is far too long. 0.1 is much better. That is also closer to the duration of the current behavior for `visible-bell' on GNU/Linux (in fact, there is no reason not to use the exact same duration as before). In comparison with the old GNU/Linux behavior, your patch is basically as good or better. However, with your patch I have to wait until the flashing is over to read the text at the bottom. This was not the case previously. I think that would need to be fixed. My guess (without looking at the code) is that we would need to make sure that the bell function is called after the text is displayed rather than before. Perhaps this would require us to add a new hook or something. (If we do eventually decide to go this way, perhaps we could include a few variations, for example the idea of changing the mode-line text from Doom could be added as optional behaviour. I don't feel very strongly about this, but I thought it might be worth floating the idea. It's very easy to implement, and there is demonstrably at least some demand for it.)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
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>> FWIW, I don't see what's "intrusive" about the "blink top and bottom lines of
>> the selected frame" which I currently see in GNU/Linux.
> In this Emacs, it blinks the two topmost lines. Which may be a bug?
My crystal ball tells me it's a hidpi bug, indeed: it probably doubles
something where it shouldn't, so at the top, it turns into 1 line into
2 and at the bottom, the line ends up being twice too far (and probably
twice too think as well, but we don't get to see it anyway).
>> It may not be slick but it does the job and I don't find it intrusive.
>> Of course, I'm biased (I've used it for too many years), but it's
>> clearly less intrusive than the non-visual bell.
> It's more intrusive than what many people are using -- which is neither
> an audible nor a visible bell, but just the echo area saying "Quit" when
> you hit `C-g' (etc).
But those people won't be affected by a change in the default.
The only people which would see a "more intrusive" bell is those who
keep the default settings but whose environment ends up muting the
audible bell. I don't know how common this is.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 18:02:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 14:02:15 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47730 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYBkN-0005VV-CJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:02:15 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:43576) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYBkL-0005VL-GB for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:02:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618768932; bh=9s9TQ93Xwf5IU0+/8jom1v4I4kXjEtdez6x3fad3kG0=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=Nn+RxIxYSvBYNDcADg5OteJ1va06kbqwIQVSGNN9IL/qapgcTCL69O/a0W9mPhbla RxD20oxV197rKSweJj6EMm2436aBS0X4P4ROOhbXhkn147QoKfBcE3Y3VMRzznJjTl TNPO0y3N9Yl24ShUqo6TwESezju6p45yJIU34kn9QJZFHz/rUFMaMCwbGLpLDJxbZo iN0G9wWwhwJQfu/7Td85W/1U4n0iIRSlQqwsFIQtHNgFlt3oGGoQSjq5innEKk5tsr bVVqFRYWDvLwSmj5FmMoNnsl8p/1cdVEuNY/mgLKcjmhCX2gPFmdYqir2x06qw7ays SCkBTapEy67UQ== Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:02:11 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <83fszntt1u.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c40b32b1f8accd57d982@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8e2fba7fb9a@HIDDEN> <83fszntt1u.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="pxftHDc3cB" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --pxftHDc3cB Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii >>> I think, perhaps, introducing a new visible bell (across all >>> significant system), that's considerably less intrusive than the ones >>> we have today on GNU/Linux and Macos, might be an option. And then >>> defaulting to using that. >>> >>> Gregory suggested blinking the cursor in a different colour -- >>> perhaps? >> >> I attach a POC of what I have in mind. > > If this is being proposed as the default setting, then we should have a > different default for TTY frames, because AFAIR cursor color cannot be > changed there, right? > Indeed. >> (sit-for 0.5) > > I think half a second is too long, a bell should be much shorter, like > 0.1 sec or something. > Hmmm... 0.5 seconds is the duration of typical audible bells. And with a sit-for, it's at most 0.5 seconds, when the user presses a key the bell signal disappears. That being said, I agree with you that 0.5 seconds is perhaps a bit too long, so I changed it to 0.25 seconds. I attach the updated POC, which works on non-graphical displays. --pxftHDc3cB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name=visible-bell.el Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <c40b32b1f8e6b7c5f89a@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=visible-bell.el KGRlZmZhY2UgdmlzaWJsZS1iZWxsLWZhY2UNCiAgJygoKCh0eXBlIHR0eSkp IDpiYWNrZ3JvdW5kICJyZWQiKSh0ICg6YmFja2dyb3VuZCAieWVsbG93Iikp KSAiIikNCihkZWZmYWNlIHZpc2libGUtYmVsbC1jdXJzb3ItZmFjZSBgKCh0 ICg6YmFja2dyb3VuZCAicmVkIikpKSAiIikNCihkZWZ2YXIgdmlzaWJsZS1i ZWxsLS1jdXJzb3ItYmFja2dyb3VuZCBuaWwpDQooZGVmdmFyIHZpc2libGUt YmVsbC0tZmFjZS1yZW1hcHBpbmcgbmlsKQ0KKGRlZnVuIHZpc2libGUtYmVs bCAoKQ0KICAodW5sZXNzIHZpc2libGUtYmVsbC0tY3Vyc29yLWJhY2tncm91 bmQNCiAgICAoc2V0cSB2aXNpYmxlLWJlbGwtLWN1cnNvci1iYWNrZ3JvdW5k DQogICAgICAgICAgKGZhY2UtYXR0cmlidXRlICdjdXJzb3IgOmJhY2tncm91 bmQpKSkNCiAgKHNldC1mYWNlLWF0dHJpYnV0ZSAnY3Vyc29yIG5pbCA6YmFj a2dyb3VuZA0KCQkgICAgICAoZmFjZS1hdHRyaWJ1dGUgJ3Zpc2libGUtYmVs bC1jdXJzb3ItZmFjZSA6YmFja2dyb3VuZCkpDQogICh3aXRoLWN1cnJlbnQt YnVmZmVyICIgKkVjaG8gQXJlYSAwKiINCiAgICAoc2V0cS1sb2NhbCB2aXNp YmxlLWJlbGwtLWZhY2UtcmVtYXBwaW5nDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgKGZh Y2UtcmVtYXAtYWRkLXJlbGF0aXZlICdkZWZhdWx0ICd2aXNpYmxlLWJlbGwt ZmFjZSkpKQ0KICAoc2l0LWZvciAwLjI1KQ0KICAoc2V0LWZhY2UtYXR0cmli dXRlICdjdXJzb3IgbmlsIDpiYWNrZ3JvdW5kIHZpc2libGUtYmVsbC0tY3Vy c29yLWJhY2tncm91bmQpDQogICh3aXRoLWN1cnJlbnQtYnVmZmVyICIgKkVj aG8gQXJlYSAwKiINCiAgICAoZmFjZS1yZW1hcC1yZW1vdmUtcmVsYXRpdmUg dmlzaWJsZS1iZWxsLS1mYWNlLXJlbWFwcGluZykpKQ0KKHNldHEgcmluZy1i ZWxsLWZ1bmN0aW9uICMndmlzaWJsZS1iZWxsKQ0KKHNldHEgdmlzaWJsZS1i ZWxsIG5pbCkgOzsganVzdCBpbiBjYXNlDQo= --pxftHDc3cB--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 17:14:55 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 13:14:55 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47679 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYB0Y-0002Bg-TL for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:14:55 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f169.google.com ([209.85.215.169]:38454) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lYB0X-0002BT-61 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:14:53 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f169.google.com with SMTP id w10so22618475pgh.5 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 10:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1Cyopegim/hu2OLb76gN4BHz20yCi4ASjpDvyQSi0ck=; b=Uh+TrpmkA33iqUVWRuSGnDCQweS+vS7xL3aVgBl8RP864Do7bBSYafvlQNd7bqN/t/ MSp+n3qX2WE66l7KfJoPFarE6TAcPbznCcUX9a0wrxFniUaJn/2VuUDJMBjYjh2XRZZb NMv73edTH7oh9KDYZ9An/K3/b6k4wIyEEKLJP0i0P9wBLarXFKMp0XHvRVXNRdkYgZxB yg+OI2WxFmdsFY93E9TIyMRgT/L/wCyFq5v/5J9237VI8XIQUHcH2SK9bYFra8amaSRz 8n5bOc57wPTmWMwPaPlcsjzmLSppp5kNZJli4I2jDg55MdDuawLaUM56ICXVBptE0BZe cMvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530FQiYEcdIeECo2qLkycaKKA7kphSm1xRFFcgcWABLdWVMsY696 krYd0IIJmavLZvTS9uCxLRhL13849LFeyG8vQDY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzivo754e+5h1goiRLW9T9oW8X3TO8cPoVwkBrMJjiGltC9Ir+gc9WJg5k7rR8OCaOrNcDzNkSrqk69uypBaNU= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:828f:0:b029:200:6e27:8c8f with SMTP id s15-20020aa7828f0000b02902006e278c8fmr16038353pfm.44.1618766087242; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 10:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:14:46 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:14:46 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmkmx2iRKcEq=7ZsYxS=QbvYVS=9R7U8+kvVZKYjQZYZgA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: >> The docstring isn't clear what "blinking" means, but they briefly set >> the *foreground* color to red (or whatever color `error' is configured >> to be). > > The foreground of the whole buffer? IMO that's very intrusive for a > default. Also, this isn't the default Doom behavior, I just checked and > doom-visual-bell is an optional extension. No, only the foreground of the mode-line.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 17:13:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 13:13:53 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47674 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYAzV-00029l-Cm for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:13:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36632) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lYAzT-00029Y-0T for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:13:48 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:53271) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lYAzN-0001ur-Ht; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:13:41 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4545 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lYAzL-0007b8-Rh; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:13:41 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 20:13:17 +0300 Message-Id: <83fszntt1u.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <c40b32b1f8e2fba7fb9a@HIDDEN> (message from Gregory Heytings on Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:02:35 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8e2fba7fb9a@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:02:35 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> > Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, > 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, > monnier@HIDDEN > > > I think, perhaps, introducing a new visible bell (across all significant > > system), that's considerably less intrusive than the ones we have today > > on GNU/Linux and Macos, might be an option. And then defaulting to > > using that. > > > > Gregory suggested blinking the cursor in a different colour -- perhaps? > > > > I attach a POC of what I have in mind. If this is being proposed as the default setting, then we should have a different default for TTY frames, because AFAIR cursor color cannot be changed there, right? > (sit-for 0.5) I think half a second is too long, a bell should be much shorter, like 0.1 sec or something.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 17:05:17 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 13:05:17 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47648 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYArF-0001wU-1s for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:05:17 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f54.google.com ([209.85.221.54]:36445) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lYArD-0001wE-Dp for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:05:15 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f54.google.com with SMTP id m9so18799384wrx.3 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 10:05:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gsNhfn9CAFssaUGST+fZmgONo02/XX+gxtq2Dt/zF54=; 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Sun, 18 Apr 2021 10:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id b187sm16711019wmh.17.2021.04.18.10.05.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Apr 2021 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <583ee267-ffc1-47e5-56bd-00c9a2096d0d@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 20:05:06 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 18.04.2021 19:38, Gregory Heytings wrote: > >> >> The docstring isn't clear what "blinking" means, but they briefly set >> the *foreground* color to red (or whatever color `error' is configured >> to be). >> > > The foreground of the whole buffer? For the mode-line. > Also, this isn't the default Doom behavior, I just checked and > doom-visual-bell is an optional extension. That's true. I have misread the commit log, sorry.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 17:02:38 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 13:02:38 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47644 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYAog-0001sU-KU for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:02:38 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:43484) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYAof-0001sM-0U for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:02:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618765355; bh=XiWEOnHCbGrUq5seXZS3cmFKs//X2jcBgXbBPu36Oe4=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=ZLyCQlxah5MyBHejwG4/RNW/r5VRmQD+eJQiMSoP1CckGlN2Fq7ZXJG6RMJbFD7IY B95l9MO+IoBfmZ/joEn+l/Y6kukAj3AkouQeQls5/qwbrC5vSQI84AzmeT9MMT4/iZ dKBe44MTNp/ceNfkII9Bq18UiGovpzoK9GItXlr18PMzOxAZyLAlA1V44OfLGIV3ZS 9PZUoRqicXoNJN5GhDF9378JAqU6+i2H6ZE0yiVK+5NqKO/o9v5XMaDNcxrFNEON64 OJyhKwsbgYk2iXwnECMKgn9m5JfRYzknfVksxE+ifUGRVdfvR9jhcvXjgDEK1GRZvS mp/yW+PEmm5eg== Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:02:35 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c40b32b1f8e2fba7fb9a@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="eTRe4humA8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --eTRe4humA8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > I think, perhaps, introducing a new visible bell (across all significant > system), that's considerably less intrusive than the ones we have today > on GNU/Linux and Macos, might be an option. And then defaulting to > using that. > > Gregory suggested blinking the cursor in a different colour -- perhaps? > I attach a POC of what I have in mind. --eTRe4humA8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name=visible-bell.el Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <c40b32b1f8f138610a72@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=visible-bell.el KGRlZmZhY2UgdmlzaWJsZS1iZWxsLWZhY2UgYCgodCAoOmJhY2tncm91bmQg InllbGxvdyIpKSkgIiIpDQooZGVmZmFjZSB2aXNpYmxlLWJlbGwtY3Vyc29y LWZhY2UgYCgodCAoOmJhY2tncm91bmQgInJlZCIpKSkgIiIpDQooZGVmdmFy IHZpc2libGUtYmVsbC0tY3Vyc29yLWJhY2tncm91bmQgbmlsKQ0KKGRlZnZh ciB2aXNpYmxlLWJlbGwtLWZhY2UtcmVtYXBwaW5nIG5pbCkNCihkZWZ1biB2 aXNpYmxlLWJlbGwgKCkNCiAgKHVubGVzcyB2aXNpYmxlLWJlbGwtLWN1cnNv ci1iYWNrZ3JvdW5kDQogICAgKHNldHEgdmlzaWJsZS1iZWxsLS1jdXJzb3It YmFja2dyb3VuZA0KICAgICAgICAgIChmYWNlLWF0dHJpYnV0ZSAnY3Vyc29y IDpiYWNrZ3JvdW5kKSkpDQogIChzZXQtZmFjZS1hdHRyaWJ1dGUgJ2N1cnNv ciBuaWwgOmJhY2tncm91bmQNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAoZmFj ZS1hdHRyaWJ1dGUgJ3Zpc2libGUtYmVsbC1jdXJzb3ItZmFjZSA6YmFja2dy b3VuZCkpDQogICh3aXRoLWN1cnJlbnQtYnVmZmVyICIgKkVjaG8gQXJlYSAw KiINCiAgICAoc2V0cS1sb2NhbCB2aXNpYmxlLWJlbGwtLWZhY2UtcmVtYXBw aW5nDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgKGZhY2UtcmVtYXAtYWRkLXJlbGF0aXZl ICdkZWZhdWx0ICd2aXNpYmxlLWJlbGwtZmFjZSkpKQ0KICAoc2l0LWZvciAw LjUpDQogIChzZXQtZmFjZS1hdHRyaWJ1dGUgJ2N1cnNvciBuaWwgOmJhY2tn cm91bmQgdmlzaWJsZS1iZWxsLS1jdXJzb3ItYmFja2dyb3VuZCkNCiAgICh3 aXRoLWN1cnJlbnQtYnVmZmVyICIgKkVjaG8gQXJlYSAwKiINCiAgICAoZmFj ZS1yZW1hcC1yZW1vdmUtcmVsYXRpdmUgdmlzaWJsZS1iZWxsLS1mYWNlLXJl bWFwcGluZykpKQ0KKHNldHEgcmluZy1iZWxsLWZ1bmN0aW9uICMndmlzaWJs ZS1iZWxsKQ0KKHNldHEgdmlzaWJsZS1iZWxsIG5pbCkgOzsganVzdCBpbiBj YXNlDQo= --eTRe4humA8--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 16:39:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 12:39:00 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47576 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYARo-0007Wt-3A for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:39:00 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:43454) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lYARm-0007Wk-Ts for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:38:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618763937; bh=T3+IFgct3csilNzo0aNP8ZO3OsNo++FL8oRuT0O4I7w=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=ddI8Zme0m6LzuAOMafYvEW1AT9DVy9ZrjAR+azJBdN1rO46p06iRIiewhNLaYjJZT /9Rpeb33LbEjOuKLYp9uRZcvlwhJWwDtCkVc0GNeSpSc9Zpndd9DxRrZ1vqaJ/AOnR YZRN+0FSLrHgULuEzOzuecMbgrAk7eSbAZ78bDdACkLSXyIiqt9Zy804+SzvDx2LxD tUcbq5DuQMpoBM07hmqYBu8+OOe/S+9lbvkDA3hscuu7kji/qNeopLECmE+9uXhb/3 OOpt19K/vNWd3LVw1VwoZ0K7iYHvqBnU6rTWHqomqzE0w5d2fDo6VmUFy70bjHyOy4 RLiA+8jLyXwWg== Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 16:38:56 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c40b32b1f8ff7ac59959@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > The docstring isn't clear what "blinking" means, but they briefly set > the *foreground* color to red (or whatever color `error' is configured > to be). > The foreground of the whole buffer? IMO that's very intrusive for a default. Also, this isn't the default Doom behavior, I just checked and doom-visual-bell is an optional extension.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 16:27:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 12:27:34 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47565 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYAGk-000567-0g for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:27:34 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:37589) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lYAGf-00055e-S2 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:27:30 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f169.google.com with SMTP id o123so21588477pfb.4 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:27:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uV3cJr3Ca9rClRbpVt3hTTItxWbrNJw4JKyTsM60aro=; b=OBNawU9gY8jwjkD4pyWGIQxZIfKAXPjnwR8zFcGZirysNeuYvDVOSsi47bV4awFivz rCVZu5Ft0BZUDbGTWFLYZoMiMt0zfrRClj3it1n2qimLy9Q29/VNTH99YjFymPxize1l peb1gB+G/iajPpge6H5Ry3Jp2VbIXnb8Ryp045Aeyjz+cCWxB76AkyBQ7PLp4+lGK41G 559dkP+z7GpmFHuIDhVUFUfWApz8j+HQ+zqpj+UkpRdTuf5jq8dXcD+/q0JYjHKdjpNe F0Dknwho3VYuoleFiJJ3qRq9QUs/Fth6t929mWiR8lgL36rUqG5qB0GEmplnn3thD97I qMiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532dlmPmnGtm09KakF3u31L5wXpYVT1VwAWOkiASCHjVlrSpvLet Go7ZRJVfhEM/+tH1VOTfFBCXH+alK/1Od18BzJl60piU X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzzzgnJuCMdZh5U3Y/HJEOGcOaZW2kXpbCRRKTiNNBDiQTUf/eVpWhgctzwvY+CKHCx/LNwfdyQ/BRFB6dfXaY= X-Received: by 2002:a63:942:: with SMTP id 63mr8143364pgj.67.1618763244183; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:27:23 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:27:23 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmkS_WT3op4nMjrC48VQjWso38ztOSRjKcs=Ou-F4MZoLQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: > Doom: > > (setq ring-bell-function #'doom-themes-visual-bell-fn > visible-bell t) > > (defface doom-visual-bell '((t (:inherit error))) > "Face to use for the mode-line when `doom-themes-visual-bell-config' > is used." > :group 'doom-themes) > > ;;;###autoload > (defun doom-themes-visual-bell-fn () > "Blink the mode-line red briefly. Set `ring-bell-function' to this > to use it." The docstring isn't clear what "blinking" means, but they briefly set the *foreground* color to red (or whatever color `error' is configured to be). I think it's a neat idea. It would be interesting to know how well it works with third-party mode line (e.g. "powerline") packages.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 16:20:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 12:20:23 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47552 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYA9n-0004uV-Lv for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:20:23 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:32907) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <whitebox@HIDDEN>) id 1lYA9l-0004uM-5W for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:20:21 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FNZtD0vJ6z1s1yb; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:20:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.70]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FNZtC6X8Mz1r1MR; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:20:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.70]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nD1Tts7oSxdY; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:20:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: jfErBkmeFAbANlJywhcPPEbWT6Tt//+kNAhrGUT0D9TQVm5iXiyJ7wK6CtlkO67U Received: from igel.home (ppp-46-244-169-50.dynamic.mnet-online.de [46.244.169.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:20:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 7F3D92C3761; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:20:18 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmn8e=qhE7E_pLESf8cxKRpxFV7KUpSz8bZ=_Xx6DBLseg@HIDDEN> X-Yow: .. over in west Philadelphia a puppy is vomiting.. Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:20:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmn8e=qhE7E_pLESf8cxKRpxFV7KUpSz8bZ=_Xx6DBLseg@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:12:00 -0500") Message-ID: <87r1j7tvi5.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) On Apr 18 2021, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Did you try this in "xterm -vb"? I get flashing here when I use that > (my X Resources disables it so I need to use that flag). The visual bell (tput flash) should be independent of -vb (which controls the effect of ^G). Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1 "And now for something completely different."
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 16:12:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 12:12:07 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47538 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lYA1n-0004hZ-Co for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:12:07 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f177.google.com ([209.85.214.177]:35763) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lYA1m-0004h4-Bz for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:12:06 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f177.google.com with SMTP id q11so3336468plx.2 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:12:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=G7orMphlKPM+91gHMuH2SfLzDptVlYwebjvrYIEMKe4=; b=YLNHuyJM4T3guKGHYnvBCFNGmRMbbtlXLnfKWiD4flGQVTLBRT1p5jFOPKs/wMrG9A /MOnSme8Ty8e9ldVEVyr0FsORcTC5vYvh7o8LZoAH3IC49mBKarmgfh00xIQXliMgZWT LxavACj+G7X3KXmILtqIUjcI30Oe+XBkJHVWvuJxQSxEo/i4+z3swFs4sSmDt1K8NL0E ly6+fswchl4NNh4pQ+Lb5xOiDvEUHx16OQkuAWJtePWc5VOkMD/yhAZnfacw4eV5+D9x l9HGMuzCwSfEoyjF6FFuK/go1BxArYqRH+CsLRP7mCJokbQvqKD7GWCtYHFh+bcGAbh0 LGfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530fDapzbVxe3pcAjt6w35mutSKz0ltN1DuBU0mjQI1WnqELk0bf /dBkdkkhK9pQwnk99UeRMeYyldwLE3wBL6Pxjvw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyGGxp/ULLtdL+YxiFwCjFQZKhMu5SDnneqbVBSRg4cM1FbuYVirt43rWA/e1Dwj2fncsPBbZwzTdrqaxqai88= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4085:: with SMTP id l5mr20461222pjg.104.1618762320671; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:12:00 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:12:00 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmn8e=qhE7E_pLESf8cxKRpxFV7KUpSz8bZ=_Xx6DBLseg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: mwd@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > I tried in both Console and xterm on this Debian/bullseye system, and > `C-g' doesn't do anything visible to me with `visible-bell' switched > on... Did you try this in "xterm -vb"? I get flashing here when I use that (my X Resources disables it so I need to use that flag).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 16:07:32 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 12:07:32 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47534 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY9xL-0004ah-SF for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:07:32 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([212.18.0.10]:43126) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <whitebox@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9xJ-0004aY-Hx for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:07:30 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FNZbM0R5tz1s1VP; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:07:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.70]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FNZbL4c0Mz1r1MJ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:07:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.70]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4mvI-c9KusQh; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:07:25 +0200 (CEST) X-Auth-Info: Mn8tBJr+U/U89YDzN3qhItPTEiLxEXNup4qZVf03qCnynccNNGWpyKmsq+m2IahQ Received: from igel.home (ppp-46-244-169-50.dynamic.mnet-online.de [46.244.169.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:07:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 253F02C3761; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:07:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Yow: I want to kill everyone here with a cute colorful Hydrogen Bomb!! Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:07:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:11:21 +0200") Message-ID: <87zgxvtw3m.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) On Apr 18 2021, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > I tried in both Console and xterm on this Debian/bullseye system, and > `C-g' doesn't do anything visible to me with `visible-bell' switched > on... What does tput flash do? Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1 "And now for something completely different."
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 15:42:05 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 11:42:05 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47499 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY9Yj-0003xN-2k for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:42:05 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:43364) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9Yi-0003xG-4c for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:42:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618760523; bh=GeUcoJMq/AKNHldHGeDmU5szg+vCygrjxH9IoPdB2j4=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=p+N9ZsIkb9tXxk9ezV2hzSxieT7janIsRBvA62RiJT8HIzg90L0Am2073Mi9ceaYj R12dvNfAAbJuHl1VrKzAgMCmMAZdX/WCxCfigOYK1btpLk7tLJbpQ1JAFZ2elYSzMm XRyUbGR9hYl411rfE5u8AWncD3VooyJfIuSQHJcA4edo9lDDaAE0wgfYifb8ebRNcm 4ZLQNVMDA3soikkc5XflzPg/Sea25cAZ4b2lw+tQisFtMymB6V0oYVfJ/08O1Rrvcw icqSz1dbAvlE3/cBNh3/k47ohflTTYlpCKJ6i3LGZNHKdxKBErSmYKEsG6d/9W3kos 35oCSY/IB2J9w== Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:42:03 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <87y2dfobvt.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c40b32b1f8987e878b49@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnWfo3xSbWaJcit__JneJxHftesWgASsb4ibdaaeE9y3w@HIDDEN> <87fsznq3ia.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnZV-juAcFJQijt8-S41LSC22xxL3-1JMZ3YvhOMwZhEA@HIDDEN> <87y2dfobvt.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> Or do we need a complete rethinking of this? Perhaps there is some >> other software that we can steal some good ideas from? (And if we can >> come up with something very good, perhaps we will want to do the same >> on GNU/Linux.) > > That's a good idea. What does (for instance) Libreoffice or Excel do to > signal a user error or "end of search" and stuff like that? > LibreOffice does very little: when the string is not found at all in the document it turns red and a "Search key not found" message is displayed at the end of the search bar; when you reach the last occurrence a "Reached the end of the document" is displayed in the search bar and the search wraps silently. For other errors, LibreOffice does even less, for example if you paste and there is nothing to paste, nothing happens, and that's all. For Microsoft Office, I don't know, but from what I remember the error handling was similar.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 15:39:05 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 11:39:05 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47486 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY9Vp-0003sE-0m for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:39:05 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:60578) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9Vm-0003rb-F5 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:39:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=HnRND0ZX/4lgBJrp4nTt7APZVjKRl4fX85MCj8LM1Bs=; b=rUL5Yk7uEZZBMtCnAkYoDLiFJp WHrHnvIRE1Uh/SIfAYkfeMaOZ7iqEc902tHOZMs0iLkboLgZPZ0aqao9pSlfji0pz7nmscTj4RSkt K6s48/YIkaU4RhbbbYW8N9xYtKT/BA6ovbrDDW6yMwO/+avLrv93BsAoaUbTpiolwBVY=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9Vc-0000Eh-Ry; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:38:55 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvsg3n1url.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEXNvaOqkXQ4MCua OEL///+ylrx+AAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEg8WExa3qnEAAAGSSURBVDjLZZOBsYQg DERBGyDQgCQNfEj/vf1NBETPmZtTnrshawiRcVGwSyNRtkdR1WA3XB2UFAZoDioekoETv+NRVJoS gK8Vs4EY4i9wrx9QT74cfKwqpWxFCtNrVwCRsIZNEPVdIenElqUb4HeNzGbRuW3AtJndGyq19b4A c8HbKZtoKewdyaWgxz56ekDNqFKjvAFIK3D5O3gS7+PU8URIkjbFdMaGkNUGxj1rr5GKPCBzumPo Detd+5MVwnNJ8xB0RXIF6GvR0VtZIJyIlybw5h20kDXFQqWvbd+gdiG7CszFvWjG/gDkihhSVAMy QJ4J4COXNhTmxl5dfVzLNj72cawCQk4PqDaZahLpF9GmEMSiAiI9AZyblRhQ/KUUNyvPCtlFqRjg 9AEdtTThjNAb2MBpG83uwNPDKiRvUMlnFP19wBUxKg2CAdoCZ/cTMYFgMh00G1/ZrCodvC4AtK7j e4wDdk+EbXcAVFzDZcATuXcl8ySVD4DDqGwgbgAnxI3gjuI7mBMLcNfewU3Guv4Dy9uPYbwAPV8A AAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDQtMThUMTU6MjI6MTkrMDA6MDCD4iUIAAAAJXRFWHRk YXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA0LTE4VDE1OjIyOjE5KzAwOjAw8r+dtAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Aksak Maboul's _Made to Measure_: "Scratch Holiday" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:38:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <jwvsg3n1url.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:28:22 -0400") Message-ID: <87tuo3ob5f.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > FWIW, I don't see what's "intrusive" about the "blink top and bottom lines of > the selected frame" which I currently see in GNU/Linux. In this Emacs, it blinks the two topmost lines. Which may be a bug? Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > FWIW, I don't see what's "intrusive" about the "blink top and bottom lines of > the selected frame" which I currently see in GNU/Linux. In this Emacs, it blinks the two topmost lines. Which may be a bug? > It may not be slick but it does the job and I don't find it intrusive. > Of course, I'm biased (I've used it for too many years), but it's > clearly less intrusive than the non-visual bell. It's more intrusive than what many people are using -- which is neither an audible nor a visible bell, but just the echo area saying "Quit" when you hit `C-g' (etc). -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:37:51 +0000
From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
In-Reply-To: <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN>
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References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
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>
> Doom:
>
> (setq ring-bell-function #'doom-themes-visual-bell-fn
> visible-bell t)
>
That's not what I see at
https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs/blob/develop/core/core-ui.el :
(setq uniquify-buffer-name-style 'forward
;; no beeping or blinking please
ring-bell-function #'ignore
visible-bell nil)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 15:36:25 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 11:36:25 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47473 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY9TB-0003ng-69 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:36:25 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51654) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9TA-0003nT-1o for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:36:20 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52257) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9T3-0008Gr-V2; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:36:14 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2490 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9T3-00008R-Ah; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:36:13 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:35:54 +0300 Message-Id: <83k0oztxk5.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: larsi@HIDDEN In-Reply-To: <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:23:57 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:23:57 +0300 > From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> > Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, > jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN > > If you put a breakpoint inside tty_ring_bell, do you see that > tty->TS_visible_bell is non-NULL or not? If it's non-NULL, perhaps > the terminal emulator has that disabled somehow? For example, PuTTY lets you customize what the bell does, so perhaps xterm and other emulators do as well?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
Message-ID: <jwvsg3n1url.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:28:22 -0400
In-Reply-To: <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sun,
18 Apr 2021 17:22:11 +0200")
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> I think, perhaps, introducing a new visible bell (across all
> significant system), that's considerably less intrusive than the ones we
> have today on GNU/Linux and Macos, might be an option. And then
> defaulting to using that.
FWIW, I don't see what's "intrusive" about the "blink top and bottom lines of
the selected frame" which I currently see in GNU/Linux.
It may not be slick but it does the job and I don't find it intrusive.
Of course, I'm biased (I've used it for too many years), but it's
clearly less intrusive than the non-visual bell.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6587e0bf-e02e-4c68-5e4c-08d9027e889c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Apr 2021 15:27:53.0112 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /PWxd0b8FZnvDaoSEb76tF/cw8OlbMCNT1mmTP2RxyJIp7B5ND2sjIkyLpAv5l1j3Af6pYOqkAhuIvkMf5i2DQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2477 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9958 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=935 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104180110 X-Proofpoint-GUID: gYtw0QCPZ-q3UvFK_-HqF1aKtBoLafFi X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: gYtw0QCPZ-q3UvFK_-HqF1aKtBoLafFi X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > I'm personally fine with that, but I suspect it would be controversial > > as it would leave us with no way of beeping (visual or otherwise). >=20 > You get a message in the echo area... >=20 > As somebody else noted earlier, if you have visible-bell on, but use > "-nw", that's the only notification you get -- there's no visible bell > on the console. So you could say that there's some precedence for using > just the echo area as the only notification mechanism (beyond apparently > all the popular Emacs distributions doing exactly that). `echo-bell'...
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:26:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
<009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN>
<00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
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<87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN>
<83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN>
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From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <a0832624-b0c7-a407-a62e-14aee7783ab7@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:26:10 +0300
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Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>,
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jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN
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On 18.04.2021 15:36, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> So you could say that there's some precedence for using
> just the echo area as the only notification mechanism (beyond apparently
> all the popular Emacs distributions doing exactly that).
Not really all of them. Here's what the distributions do:
Prelude and Spacemacs:
(setq ring-bell-function 'ignore)
better-defaults:
(setq visible-bell t)
Doom:
(setq ring-bell-function #'doom-themes-visual-bell-fn
visible-bell t)
(defface doom-visual-bell '((t (:inherit error)))
"Face to use for the mode-line when `doom-themes-visual-bell-config'
is used."
:group 'doom-themes)
;;;###autoload
(defun doom-themes-visual-bell-fn ()
"Blink the mode-line red briefly. Set `ring-bell-function' to this
to use it."
(let ((doom-themes--bell-cookie (face-remap-add-relative 'mode-line
'doom-visual-bell)))
(force-mode-line-update)
(run-with-timer 0.15 nil
(lambda (cookie buf)
(with-current-buffer buf
(face-remap-remove-relative cookie)
(force-mode-line-update)))
doom-themes--bell-cookie
(current-buffer))))
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 15:24:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 11:24:29 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47449 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY9Hc-0003Uh-9G for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:24:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49958) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9Ha-0003UV-M6 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:24:23 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52117) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9HV-00043o-6v; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:24:17 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1756 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9HU-0002bT-Ai; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:24:16 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:23:57 +0300 Message-Id: <83lf9fty42.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:11:21 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Cc: stefan@HIDDEN, mwd@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, > 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN > Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:11:21 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > Is that really true? I see in the code that we do support > > visible-bell on TTY frames if terminfo says the terminal is capable of > > doing that, see term.c:tty_ring_bell. > > I tried in both Console and xterm on this Debian/bullseye system, and > `C-g' doesn't do anything visible to me with `visible-bell' switched > on... If you put a breakpoint inside tty_ring_bell, do you see that tty->TS_visible_bell is non-NULL or not? If it's non-NULL, perhaps the terminal emulator has that disabled somehow?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 15:23:13 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 11:23:13 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47445 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY9GS-0003Su-W4 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:23:13 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:60394) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9GR-0003Sj-Rj for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:23:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=wXMXbq1PVIFvcHjJByvwy5TcrMo2T/3ijgACgE7NwcE=; b=SIDIcS1oEJ6YgQMa/81TfYXbGz A+x2PIWXHUYazcnVncuXZ41wTefiQffMfR7glMmPvzIxwhrW+BvOUNfC0fldEuOEysSuMKfGBgHzJ Juyq511VozbPCKQ8dggjH+IDSlXtlUCnOWP4jCQfL8jBL3h/fTsT3MGbF3gR4T9KntO8=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9GJ-00008o-5u; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:23:05 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnWfo3xSbWaJcit__JneJxHftesWgASsb4ibdaaeE9y3w@HIDDEN> <87fsznq3ia.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnZV-juAcFJQijt8-S41LSC22xxL3-1JMZ3YvhOMwZhEA@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEXNvaOqkXQ4MCua OEL///+ylrx+AAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEg8WExa3qnEAAAGSSURBVDjLZZOBsYQg DERBGyDQgCQNfEj/vf1NBETPmZtTnrshawiRcVGwSyNRtkdR1WA3XB2UFAZoDioekoETv+NRVJoS gK8Vs4EY4i9wrx9QT74cfKwqpWxFCtNrVwCRsIZNEPVdIenElqUb4HeNzGbRuW3AtJndGyq19b4A c8HbKZtoKewdyaWgxz56ekDNqFKjvAFIK3D5O3gS7+PU8URIkjbFdMaGkNUGxj1rr5GKPCBzumPo Detd+5MVwnNJ8xB0RXIF6GvR0VtZIJyIlybw5h20kDXFQqWvbd+gdiG7CszFvWjG/gDkihhSVAMy QJ4J4COXNhTmxl5dfVzLNj72cawCQk4PqDaZahLpF9GmEMSiAiI9AZyblRhQ/KUUNyvPCtlFqRjg 9AEdtTThjNAb2MBpG83uwNPDKiRvUMlnFP19wBUxKg2CAdoCZ/cTMYFgMh00G1/ZrCodvC4AtK7j e4wDdk+EbXcAVFzDZcATuXcl8ySVD4DDqGwgbgAnxI3gjuI7mBMLcNfewU3Guv4Dy9uPYbwAPV8A AAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDQtMThUMTU6MjI6MTkrMDA6MDCD4iUIAAAAJXRFWHRk YXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA0LTE4VDE1OjIyOjE5KzAwOjAw8r+dtAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Minimal Compact's _Made to Measure_: "Bat-Yam" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:23:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnZV-juAcFJQijt8-S41LSC22xxL3-1JMZ3YvhOMwZhEA@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:22:03 -0500") Message-ID: <87y2dfobvt.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Or do we need a complete rethinking of this? Perhaps there is some > other software that we can steal some good ideas from? (And if we can > come up with something very good, perhaps we will want to [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Or do we need a complete rethinking of this? Perhaps there is some > other software that we can steal some good ideas from? (And if we can > come up with something very good, perhaps we will want to do the same on > GNU/Linux.) That's a good idea. What does (for instance) Libreoffice or Excel do to signal a user error or "end of search" and stuff like that? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 15:22:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 11:22:24 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47436 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY9Fg-0003Qx-5e for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:22:24 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:60370) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9Fd-0003Qi-K9 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:22:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ouuaIi+0OjA/w/t4fslcuHmNLnchMtwZa8V+EX44jY4=; b=HKEp4MtkFcwcL5zvxFHHluGKtL LCKroeVWAe0tTGQCh6aXLrqMhXxvEhFerGT/2OsQwPy01VG3PriyAVcWFK8qK2NagkLjhc0CEUAyC 4JPt0SjuH/ZyXSH98Yl43M5CfUTqy8l0y9ZX4b2KMWlJ86q2Wt5m9ZAVLojq3IheBEU0=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY9FT-00008T-Sl; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:22:14 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAFVBMVEVyYx6NcCKjjzWX bEhja0lzhFH///8kOM3SAAAAAWJLR0QGYWa4fQAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEg8IMo6fhfAAAAG6SURBVDjL fZNNUsRACIVBnT306N7Gcj9xavZZeID4k/tfRR7QJnFhT9Uk4QMaXtPEQqy+Ov7UrHUzfxgNEKtZ rABUQI60k68EWxwClHQAYtOx2R8QacJdmxIX8JQAParCN4dhgHhTjv8wsOZTaFSTgNJSds/S7D/A lQk+Bby0BGi8AIdLi861jJGIDal4ilBNv8DsviyqlbMZVPbf0EDGdp0tKmhqdAAuXGreEowC7yBQ INSzA0GsxynJAXiZvQ7vD/CmHEH2nZqxurs7QFVHIG6MVADtedMtz1a8Ubxcti20xAq3XSZoNGrh HVC4x6dk3g1UAi93SPXwvcZ+noBdZ9Fo0i1Py2nxxm2qiUPNL+LVPDkCkLBjQt8womd7vd4WnH+H WKH9pNcJEdNtJgxyj3ak8YvmHtPNi1RrWaOs65xaREQVDIutS7Zwwh4liwSYC/DjwmOWcX9eS6/T 9/pRmoa8EB6jJnx3HwqN64EIH0DV+9PnGbEtG4Qrnb2PN3qfY1QxPX7/41LaBXfiPevuOVbg1+tM 4hELXfJ61T55LjqtX+2yzdI2Unz70t2pMR3X7zEfpnC/8pbRDxr4O8km5KKJAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRl OmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTA0LTE4VDE1OjA4OjQ5KzAwOjAwhEwCZAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkA MjAyMS0wNC0xOFQxNTowODo0OSswMDowMPURutgAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Minimal Compact's _Deadly Weapons_: "The Howling Hole" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:22:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:10:08 -0500") Message-ID: <8735vnpqho.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >> As somebody else noted earlier, if you have visible-bell on, but use >> "-nw", that's the only notification you get -- there's no visible bell >> on the console. So you could say that there's some [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >> As somebody else noted earlier, if you have visible-bell on, but use >> "-nw", that's the only notification you get -- there's no visible bell >> on the console. So you could say that there's some precedence for using >> just the echo area as the only notification mechanism (beyond apparently >> all the popular Emacs distributions doing exactly that). > > True. You have my vote, FWIW. I'm not really advocating anything in particular here. :-) I'm just trying to get a clearer overview of what the current situation really is, and what options are available to us. I think it's clear that we can't just flip `visible-bell' on -- that will be annoying to a substantial number of people (who currently have neither beeping nor a visible bell). I think, perhaps, introducing a new visible bell (across all significant system), that's considerably less intrusive than the ones we have today on GNU/Linux and Macos, might be an option. And then defaulting to using that. Gregory suggested blinking the cursor in a different colour -- perhaps? Or something like the Macos blinker -- but as you suggest, a lot smaller and of a much shorter duration. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k11sm15947838wrx.88.2021.04.18.08.18.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cf35f89a-f3a9-86ff-9203-dd1ee28d5373@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:18:37 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 18.04.2021 18:06, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> As somebody else noted earlier, if you have visible-bell on, but use >> "-nw", that's the only notification you get -- there's no visible bell >> on the console. > Is that really true? I see in the code that we do support > visible-bell on TTY frames if terminfo says the terminal is capable of > doing that, see term.c:tty_ring_bell. I've tried it in gnome-terminal and terminator. Could be just a bug, though.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:14:18 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Index: AQHXNByzKIOjbfYOxEaX9PoxTOjsS6q6YoKQ Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:14:18 +0000 Message-ID: <SA2PR10MB4474C11DAC4494685EC4D747F34A9@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <83a6pwumt1.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <83a6pwumt1.fsf@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gnu.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 42ee9df9-60af-4221-02e9-08d9027ca357 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Apr 2021 15:14:18.8029 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0FsR8SDI+bonhPZHJFpvObUeQacYEDFxR9IvzytO9ThRIvp08dYTH+g3M1B/RMRsFbLAcbyT/NZr8ULwP7E7ZA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2798 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9958 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104180109 X-Proofpoint-GUID: KdJ1m2GSYwLP1qat8br44p1iW-EwuyIs X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: KdJ1m2GSYwLP1qat8br44p1iW-EwuyIs X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: "larsi@HIDDEN" <larsi@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, "stefan@HIDDEN" <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > the opinions are clearly divided, and Emacs lets each > one of us customize this feature as they see fit. So > why is arguing about the default so important, when > there's clearly no consensus? I say let's just close > the issue as wontfix and move on. +1.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 15:11:36 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 11:11:36 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47412 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY95E-00039m-1w for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:11:36 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:60294) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY95B-00039Y-7y for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:11:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=i7UKJVeodXk5NZRCv9eg2QF3zhjSL7x2+XjDlZAbfmA=; b=QZl6tgU2MZp9qlZY1fFK678SjP 9WBBew12/PY5qQq4EgLTUbijoIMpZu40pfnt4gFnqTaKBekPn+yc0Rcix5viNTJNNrA/65hw+Oy2d UJ+eEVbHbox8Z9EIYRMwwRRrSnbVdUwFBsHOyKbnynm8DD2bVZnTfAr8PVL3KC8+qR00=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY94z-0008Tu-RE; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:11:24 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAFVBMVEVyYx6NcCKjjzWX bEhja0lzhFH///8kOM3SAAAAAWJLR0QGYWa4fQAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEg8IMo6fhfAAAAG6SURBVDjL fZNNUsRACIVBnT306N7Gcj9xavZZeID4k/tfRR7QJnFhT9Uk4QMaXtPEQqy+Ov7UrHUzfxgNEKtZ rABUQI60k68EWxwClHQAYtOx2R8QacJdmxIX8JQAParCN4dhgHhTjv8wsOZTaFSTgNJSds/S7D/A lQk+Bby0BGi8AIdLi861jJGIDal4ilBNv8DsviyqlbMZVPbf0EDGdp0tKmhqdAAuXGreEowC7yBQ INSzA0GsxynJAXiZvQ7vD/CmHEH2nZqxurs7QFVHIG6MVADtedMtz1a8Ubxcti20xAq3XSZoNGrh HVC4x6dk3g1UAi93SPXwvcZ+noBdZ9Fo0i1Py2nxxm2qiUPNL+LVPDkCkLBjQt8womd7vd4WnH+H WKH9pNcJEdNtJgxyj3ak8YvmHtPNi1RrWaOs65xaREQVDIutS7Zwwh4liwSYC/DjwmOWcX9eS6/T 9/pRmoa8EB6jJnx3HwqN64EIH0DV+9PnGbEtG4Qrnb2PN3qfY1QxPX7/41LaBXfiPevuOVbg1+tM 4hELXfJ61T55LjqtX+2yzdI2Unz70t2pMR3X7zEfpnC/8pbRDxr4O8km5KKJAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRl OmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTA0LTE4VDE1OjA4OjQ5KzAwOjAwhEwCZAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkA MjAyMS0wNC0xOFQxNTowODo0OSswMDowMPURutgAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Minimal Compact's _Deadly Weapons_: "Deadly Weapons" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 17:11:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:06:31 +0300") Message-ID: <877dkzpqzq.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Is that really true? I see in the code that we do support > visible-bell on TTY frames if terminfo says the terminal is capable of > doing that, see term.c:tty_ring_bell. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Is that really true? I see in the code that we do support > visible-bell on TTY frames if terminfo says the terminal is capable of > doing that, see term.c:tty_ring_bell. I tried in both Console and xterm on this Debian/bullseye system, and `C-g' doesn't do anything visible to me with `visible-bell' switched on... -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 15:07:06 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 11:07:06 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47408 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY90o-00033E-9a for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:07:06 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47020) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY90m-00032v-MP for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:07:01 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:51944) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY90g-0006vF-EI; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:06:54 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4670 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY90c-0001GZ-VT; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:06:52 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:06:31 +0300 Message-Id: <83mttvtyx4.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:36:55 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mwd@HIDDEN, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, gregory@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:36:55 +0200 > Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, > Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN > > As somebody else noted earlier, if you have visible-bell on, but use > "-nw", that's the only notification you get -- there's no visible bell > on the console. Is that really true? I see in the code that we do support visible-bell on TTY frames if terminfo says the terminal is capable of doing that, see term.c:tty_ring_bell.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 13:32:52 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 09:32:52 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45710 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY7Xg-0000Ll-Eh for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:32:52 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:43158) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lY7Xe-0000La-57 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:32:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618752768; bh=tA+ov+giTpcC4KMst2cnZ/x0ejcdRyC6uu2mAaZUX3A=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=fNOIdgq0ZVCsll7vTr6uYyUhG+krYtSsQ4SA90g3HWdeTzF7j+NnpAd9iZRipwhDz 3Zz4u0COhkx484gbVhzNjuH1eydr8vqJa1dFxOjlC92c6EKwbptvmvSz0trg1SqxhM Y4QP4ZC/v3aBYfq2kPC6spVE0V8V8gZ9ojLbrfaCzaM9fCyOtrmNMxeLcaDe8o3WGi vhhvGxAOBF6ylcmHZUJsRNh8DwWaZFNk1SaqwSMOEBhJCMj6g6pLnS0gZjvTflaHa5 S2pEa01FapJpozvr1RmY5ayXarqEvG5+vKi5wi20mXmupLCQfQDsxVpbjRWLoZbWAr 5g1KoppO1zSBQ== Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:32:48 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnZV-juAcFJQijt8-S41LSC22xxL3-1JMZ3YvhOMwZhEA@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c40b32b1f81c8f3481f0@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnWfo3xSbWaJcit__JneJxHftesWgASsb4ibdaaeE9y3w@HIDDEN> <87fsznq3ia.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnZV-juAcFJQijt8-S41LSC22xxL3-1JMZ3YvhOMwZhEA@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Or do we need a complete rethinking of this? Perhaps there is some > other software that we can steal some good ideas from? > FWIW, what I would do for the default is to leave visible-bell to nil, and to use ring-bell-function to temporarily turn the cursor color to red and to put the message in the echo area on a yellow background. Of course these colors would be configurable. This would work on all platforms, and isn't too intrusive; at least it's less intrusive than the current defaults with visible-bell nil or t on GNU/Linux and macOS.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 13:16:02 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 09:16:02 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45697 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY7HO-0008Of-KG for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:16:02 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f176.google.com ([209.85.210.176]:35427) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lY7HM-0008Nz-8P for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:16:00 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f176.google.com with SMTP id h15so3725166pfv.2 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 06:16:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rQhXWH48HZIFWicyKbtNXOg7yaofvnsg2yx1MrTxHKw=; b=bR59CCX5wW301+HysDbWfL1z6CU4hGxmY1boprjRfWbVkpPlqfdYnWAq9uv30zxRxe k+Qiqfp+42SgBFJxtiss4P5BY91pDOp0QxN7+ZS1C83r8wg05/cUgm05tfB570v3+I1+ yQmYUzbk7gSwcElZLkFYJ346Vl8KhEO3J/vaPo19V38RTWecw6ceDYkjSsWKNL92I95j OmxvGQPUVZZ/4kSu74vQwti40LNZZgmJ10Lh6f7gxX/qrE02/DJieW9v+f1MzVg4c5yO aAh4glUW6MCWGb7Rg8vtBUYEariGdoQCM4dNhRh6IaXnEy7l58NcF2tLBoaxUxcKWEP8 oRRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Jl6wuCAL4uOF5hwW3cnl5NIcso9E1o+ljNIyPp30vvZpfeHVZ 1qjwipKTA/K5cou3GvjRvoW88OjvQ2y1Dcxftno= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyP7wwDiNEXL0X6UnVz9EKUHL9rOgtchWnhutqoQo4woFHarZgCKsb4UYMSA8c0Af2uHghDO+N1o7WPnkhCJlQ= X-Received: by 2002:a62:5bc1:0:b029:20d:69a5:189 with SMTP id p184-20020a625bc10000b029020d69a50189mr15799185pfb.57.1618751754540; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 06:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:15:54 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkcLTJcB8FUOXejZQfp9A0mVBxbqoJ8WnNXb0GyJJTcmQ@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:15:54 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmnUmz4bg7x3eJLXaCQRdyW0_KNupp8WMVZZaNFbQZ4jvw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > So if we make that change, perhaps we should make `ding' obsolete in > favour of `user-error'. Or maybe not: `ding' cancels keyboard macros, right? So there would still be some use for it, if you want to cancel a keyboard macro but do nothing visible in interactive use.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:
> Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> I'm personally fine with that, but I suspect it would be controversial
>> as it would leave us with no way of beeping (visual or otherwise).
>
> You get a message in the echo area...
Not for `ding' though, e.g.:
(progn
(setq ring-bell-function #'ignore)
(defun foo () (interactive) (ding)))
M-x foo RET
So if we make that change, perhaps we should make `ding' obsolete in
favour of `user-error'.
> As somebody else noted earlier, if you have visible-bell on, but use
> "-nw", that's the only notification you get -- there's no visible bell
> on the console. So you could say that there's some precedence for using
> just the echo area as the only notification mechanism (beyond apparently
> all the popular Emacs distributions doing exactly that).
True. You have my vote, FWIW.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 12:37:11 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 08:37:11 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45670 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY6fm-0007So-Sr for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:37:11 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:59126) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY6fk-0007Sa-D8 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:37:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=fy56/4ypdRbXrkDLPA1SWz+llvm+0TaWgtm82B4404s=; b=Gob/qcCXVR4cUt05tDNgdLS5XJ 8IBwe0Ibo4XUw+CUWt7RozPwYl7DWsfXxLXmGRjr1D5eYc4PyD1CcoZXytuz6+Xu4jIPWgXy1XIp0 tQhC9APBNixBMUO8wFIDQTMDn8o/ue8VBnM/6jO12aPV+Tfy+QaxpNL2NhGvGMTtf7XU=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY6fY-0007OR-9N; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:37:00 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEXq4dX68+iupqCM fn0/Pjz///8RIlHcAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEgwfKpo2J2kAAAG4SURBVDjLlZTR cewgDEWF/QoANgWwggJsowIcpP5rehLgJN7ZfIQPj+DYulcSYwAHIXh4Xc4ewVaPnAa6vYEAfgBv zNvWf4PQwYKYDPqZ6hWE6wu1MIBZeQvm9kcUXoD7KwgGHs9fQNn8WxBF0lvwIfwe/PsG4QVIdb8A nlnuqVZM6evMaBruPcfkb4nQQAyBHGizseraDCwJEDO5JUKyQx2ETdG79Qmia49wswRb3DpoXWde Bo22ox4dyDZGfvUxCucBBLwVPgcQHiwZ0lJESuPdztMgDxQG5xSQVAUR3QDWIBUkbQc/FGCe0/Ik TaNVv9hW1SA+VcV19ROwDnlxng7WG26Vr7J3V8UeKRAeatrsFdVQgaLiUp79zqUFOxCtiqhKa2Uf 3XBLBwzmlfggOWefcvfbAIpkTWcqrP3VpB2cYPVrG/3sjXSgBUNV90zYy52+Q8gVAWlkwXyB53Sx SslH0zrpDmAdo1o4vgJqjQ+PHHmA/QuoWfbJMjX6AZZKRMeSVhWBDwWfF9DKiTHpC7JZO0+7F86A 5uKacp0ap4cJpDaRI8ucTLt+OcN/vcq4QIIi98Ud/AfC04ZUdUeVxgAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVh dGUAMjAyMS0wNC0xOFQxMjozMTo0MSswMDowMK8nB5AAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEt MDQtMThUMTI6MzE6NDErMDA6MDDeer8sAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Hermine's _The World On My Plates_: "Waiting" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:36:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:22:18 -0500") Message-ID: <87blabpy54.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm personally fine with that, but I suspect it would be controversial > as it would leave us with no way of beeping (visual or otherwise). You get a message in the echo area... Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm personally fine with that, but I suspect it would be controversial > as it would leave us with no way of beeping (visual or otherwise). You get a message in the echo area... As somebody else noted earlier, if you have visible-bell on, but use "-nw", that's the only notification you get -- there's no visible bell on the console. So you could say that there's some precedence for using just the echo area as the only notification mechanism (beyond apparently all the popular Emacs distributions doing exactly that). -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 12:22:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 08:22:26 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45649 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY6RW-00075l-G4 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:22:26 -0400 Received: from mail-pj1-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:56255) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lY6RU-00075W-Nw for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:22:25 -0400 Received: by mail-pj1-f41.google.com with SMTP id s14so11534658pjl.5 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 05:22:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qx0S6YF28uyE1N2ryFAHVoWK0WMBSVOIslxzuUMp1Hw=; b=XK0zrIhbigwTx2niTMKt96FDwIRDZnr6MiU4AbCQZgkfwDQFtMyUluMZoqlUKySJHO evZhpvjsF4XEZ82GZDNJtBxhVcPVTWGLuXU6gqZb+SJ75Z7L/1ZFLxC11isUwZpTOrSH dBpK14DJEiVaqcPj25OVAsOfHkffKzFmZqp0kgtxfGnW3lDrtcQ9+36rpDdrUo8JTDMg CJ8cZmcYNXrXbDYKRCSYV7TwGgbtUyL1116y80KVhJoxcgZeHfdfwTYIJ1GRn2C8n77D lJLtcIJ41WXm5edS1dXYvaYq2s8/rXy8xADo1Uuuy0G2k18t99rZFkIRwmRSiLi3FSU0 CD9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530tLpPDYbClTMX25JOu2MHPMBQaV5wlkZjDkyRTOzlNnEy2MTdv hAiseSiNmBKZjxwzHYjeeLSPXDJENQaQcwLaLPE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKKSVCYlqwBKviSg7042gYnScuFqfWN1Etkm0Yq7/a9NhtBOQkY/RsP+IrRiAs3JlIxoog0JfbaQinpapSYJw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7788:b029:e9:11:5334 with SMTP id o8-20020a1709027788b02900e900115334mr18221889pll.70.1618748539090; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 05:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:22:18 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:22:18 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmm5fnCQEVLhJCDRGh4EDXQ1kkSE-9Y=HEVYjVgfJQMtdw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > So perhaps we should instead discuss whether we should change the > default of `ring-bell-function', and leave `visible-bell' as is? I'm personally fine with that, but I suspect it would be controversial as it would leave us with no way of beeping (visual or otherwise).
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 12:22:11 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 08:22:11 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45646 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY6RH-00075I-7b for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:22:11 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f181.google.com ([209.85.215.181]:45753) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lY6RF-000755-KZ for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 08:22:09 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f181.google.com with SMTP id d10so22318318pgf.12 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 05:22:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jZCnCaPsSJdtuFxp4wWYn8Md1Lzn0tEqal7iKx00q64=; b=aXyZSky9pcSKweG3aYkhGCR+196XH+uGwHqk9lb7mAPy9LVolQ8ZOhnAhiEmabFDEz 660boAmjzNgOKZ465BDZLpl+vIipT37n5r5Ujttv5Q0k2vEm9sm2jAPGeZwaDmdMubGY BKdCjSAGGWcixwRMlPDbW39n1pu859+xItRpSudaxuH+f4AcOFHDCbFvrpZuFktpCsL0 3QMfVqRODIebl6XAaFqBbZduyjn6nCuhgkOX0KKODCZqHXpemW7XIPyczRz2fdeFlnF9 NTvy3+q84rUzf9cqF9qhF0CsPI4sWs46S9gzdcfDTEAu5Lrb0/pKBZicVQ9tKu6Tn9ih PdKg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530hkTQOphAJtxAxexFMnk7FMJomQb8718oIrSzd/vbE8QGeQvQK 9A/SNRDUsfoXgyVFKHyhyN3PJbHvK1c5zzYDuI4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyyC5jWyu+ewYVYpJsCefp3uBmjF4NR2k9Qk61v0PH6Kezh/wtrSq4D4ltyo5IJukxapFC34YByNIAnBJXncFc= X-Received: by 2002:a62:5bc1:0:b029:20d:69a5:189 with SMTP id p184-20020a625bc10000b029020d69a50189mr15655764pfb.57.1618748523870; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 05:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:22:03 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87fsznq3ia.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnWfo3xSbWaJcit__JneJxHftesWgASsb4ibdaaeE9y3w@HIDDEN> <87fsznq3ia.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:22:03 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmnZV-juAcFJQijt8-S41LSC22xxL3-1JMZ3YvhOMwZhEA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > The visual-bell on Macos is pretty, but really intrusive. If we want to > make the visual bell the default, we should perhaps change that first. True, it is *really* intrusive. And it hides a large part of your buffer text too, which is highly annoying to me. So I guess we should do something about it first, yes. So how can we make it less intrusive? Would it be enough to make it smaller, or move its position or something? For example, if it was a bit smaller and in the top right? I would probably also decrease its duration to around three thirds or even half of what it is now. Or do we need a complete rethinking of this? Perhaps there is some other software that we can steal some good ideas from? (And if we can come up with something very good, perhaps we will want to do the same on GNU/Linux.)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 11:38:38 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 07:38:38 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45591 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY5l4-00060M-GV for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:38:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49058) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY5l2-000609-Ca for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:38:33 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:49881) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY5kw-0008Vf-Rx; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:38:26 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2967 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY5ku-000296-7b; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:38:26 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 14:38:02 +0300 Message-Id: <83sg3nu8kl.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <c40b32b1f8ed9adb6c08@HIDDEN> (message from Gregory Heytings on Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:10:45 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <83a6pwumt1.fsf@HIDDEN> <c40b32b1f8ed9adb6c08@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:10:45 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> > cc: larsi@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > stefan@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN > > > I don't see how Emacs is the odd one out here. > > It just feels awkward by today's standards. I don't share that opinion, but maybe we have different ideas of today's standards. > > And we are bikeshedding again: the opinions are clearly divided, and > > Emacs lets each one of us customize this feature as they see fit. So > > why is arguing about the default so important, when there's clearly no > > consensus? > > We are discussing what a better default could be; in another thread the > discussion is about a better default for the 'match' face. Is discussing > the default UX useless because everyone can customize everything? That's not what I said. Discussing changes in the defaults is useful when there's consensus and/or when customization is tricky. Neither of those are true in this case.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 11:10:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 07:10:49 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45563 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY5KC-0003DE-RA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:10:49 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:43008) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lY5KA-0003D5-TZ for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:10:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618744245; bh=eh1Px1TcRLCjXe7PxkVG0Av6zi0DQHwtLUAvaVXOJCs=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=ip2kfxHyykJiqKVfyevKKGWhNeg+F+ADlT5YxaADuL1tbk6BLyWBDrmmZGH/kG9LB fL8feF0ZNDXJYAW7w0BOSp38xXC84LJ7joxFWEqTAgQVipCL4bXC8LSiXOlw0GOGXa zcUBwR2yYCi9mQSk7cH0aEY6DxZzrGH1Ubssjp6flbI0oOpCJHBnsti4aA4PhNq140 wWXkBed5TBQa/L4Dj/vmqRLtrKPn/3MggI4lR+PyJg01i1K3bOKMtvlQxz5M9sSq9G dQznp2Rqz81PiM0wMZzy8KoyAmOuVmXhe7Ual0x8b+ouPBn0x/wiSYOp+337XWVco4 hlp5XiJTagyDQ== Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:10:45 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <83a6pwumt1.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <c40b32b1f8ed9adb6c08@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <83a6pwumt1.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > Emacs beeps a lot if you do things that make it beep. Like try to go > where no one has gone before. > > By contrast, other apps beep when they see fit. A MUA plays sounds when > a new email arrives; the desktop beeps when it has some notification > that it thinks you must see and act upon, etc. etc. > > I don't see how Emacs is the odd one out here. > It just feels awkward by today's standards. Emacs beeps when there is in fact no good reason to beep: whenever you type C-g, when isearch doesn't find a match, when you press C-p at BOB or C-n at EOB, when you press C-v or M-v too much (which can in fact be, for a short enough buffer: whenever you type C-v or M-v), when you press a self-inserting key in a read-only buffer, and so forth. There is no good reason to beep, because (1) the echo area already contains an explanation about what happened, and (2) the error is not important enough to call the user's attention, nothing serious can happen if the user doesn't see it. In such cases flashing the echo area would be more than enough. By contrast, Emacs doesn't beep when there would perhaps be a good reason to beep, for example when yes-or-no-p/y-or-n-p are called. > > And we are bikeshedding again: the opinions are clearly divided, and > Emacs lets each one of us customize this feature as they see fit. So > why is arguing about the default so important, when there's clearly no > consensus? > We are discussing what a better default could be; in another thread the discussion is about a better default for the 'match' face. Is discussing the default UX useless because everyone can customize everything?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 10:41:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 06:41:18 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45555 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY4re-0000JB-Ch for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 06:41:18 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:58202) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY4rZ-0000Iv-70 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 06:41:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=LxwVkiYKfku0GYC39tATfS9Ffh9JNMJOqzqfm3lmyMs=; b=ZZXY3N2bbz5sDvbh6gOTrz5f7D qYRyEzbsH/6VzEHGPDP7nnHx4XWfA93AXSBDbD0g3QI+Twcne0uxUbQqUXUQLSfaE7ZbAZUHCz1LC kiEW0fXXuGtPp0CV5swq+vl47TOoHtV4FR4WAvenyRk2vQXBurHWB2rMM/WHB9JqhdZE=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY4rO-0006Nw-5Z; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:41:06 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnWfo3xSbWaJcit__JneJxHftesWgASsb4ibdaaeE9y3w@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEUJBgdeNT6tn6TF ETH5+fn///8/3L9qAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEgojECtE+5YAAAG3SURBVDjLdZML koMwCIZJ6gFC9ABKc4AoPcBquf+ZFrDWuO3SGSfJVx4/JADfDDO1O8Se3wZw468GwP+A0O5m5uTh em4izXyrXAH1V4GhZ2JanuVZU4LKWDFVTgq4bLQRy7POL4DBPVi2O9FiQEP0NXBiZF4MUFnocb8W pWC58/2z2vQpAzFB2EzfjLY+O2Of0ZfBdhgxTjnTlIkmgAhAr11GIkIr1mywpibEpsmaASHI5yxS UjAYyJMG0HDUDEe0LCgiMqF937UFGSGmTuRHN1FkPEBUh/ijJ6sqSuUE3eiD1yBRKDceg+oYxEwF lD0i7MLLC8hmn8MjpigHkBa4ji8gpiDrBew6tMJBlx8gl9GFd39A3jY9G13w2yxvCFqrsivAsurY opiOFqit3lU91esjY75UHLUDyrgIXfNrrUHZ3F1C2SxW11FDe74ZcOEmdKA2d3AHvSu9jjpQeecO LnzQF5UT9nNpmmLCRR9OmJjLqcKviOmoQEegve8ufNOnA6VJbQMXZzPcHmetDly4XlV+XM6hS9Gv xY33Vm3nG9l1MIc/594UdaiQzziHg+mw/7QPxAcov7Nok/7wvsmvAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0 ZQAyMDIxLTA0LTE4VDEwOjM1OjE1KzAwOjAwej841gAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0w NC0xOFQxMDozNToxNSswMDowMAtigGoAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Maximum Joy's _Disco Not Disco 3_: "Silent Street-Silent Dub" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:41:01 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnWfo3xSbWaJcit__JneJxHftesWgASsb4ibdaaeE9y3w@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:08:10 -0500") Message-ID: <87fsznq3ia.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >> I poked around, and it's "Settings -> Sound -> System Sounds" in Gnome >> Shell that I had switched to a volume of zero. > > Does that have an option to use a visual bell instead? Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: >> I poked around, and it's "Settings -> Sound -> System Sounds" in Gnome >> Shell that I had switched to a volume of zero. > > Does that have an option to use a visual bell instead? Nope. But you can choose between a range of different beeps. > What is less clear to me is why Emacs should mimic the behavior of > terminal emulators of 1980s era terminals that mimicked 1970s era > terminals. :-) It probably shouldn't, but finding the least annoying change here is unexpectedly non-trivial. The visual-bell on Macos is pretty, but really intrusive. If we want to make the visual bell the default, we should perhaps change that first. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 10:38:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 06:38:23 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45542 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY4op-0000Df-Fq for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 06:38:23 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:58176) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY4oo-0000DS-5e for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 06:38:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=8MwAMc8K2s9fRLKtjYgdscDGWMhBWP6PtnYams/SYws=; b=oLM0EqD7wrWB1fImG4JjsLUTot pSH2cF281XbMdrwy41vr6e+f9082MMT6lXlrMna63WhhwcBPjCNwU4e+a6Rm1elBeG5XnIvt0ueyw 0X53BWflX/l7clsWV5OtmD4ArjldN76T/Hse8v+TTK08Fz6QQFxQMHA4OLHIMNWlJkM0=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lY4oW-0006M8-DU; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:38:07 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEUJBgdeNT6tn6TF ETH5+fn///8/3L9qAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEgojECtE+5YAAAG3SURBVDjLdZML koMwCIZJ6gFC9ABKc4AoPcBquf+ZFrDWuO3SGSfJVx4/JADfDDO1O8Se3wZw468GwP+A0O5m5uTh em4izXyrXAH1V4GhZ2JanuVZU4LKWDFVTgq4bLQRy7POL4DBPVi2O9FiQEP0NXBiZF4MUFnocb8W pWC58/2z2vQpAzFB2EzfjLY+O2Of0ZfBdhgxTjnTlIkmgAhAr11GIkIr1mywpibEpsmaASHI5yxS UjAYyJMG0HDUDEe0LCgiMqF937UFGSGmTuRHN1FkPEBUh/ijJ6sqSuUE3eiD1yBRKDceg+oYxEwF lD0i7MLLC8hmn8MjpigHkBa4ji8gpiDrBew6tMJBlx8gl9GFd39A3jY9G13w2yxvCFqrsivAsurY opiOFqit3lU91esjY75UHLUDyrgIXfNrrUHZ3F1C2SxW11FDe74ZcOEmdKA2d3AHvSu9jjpQeecO LnzQF5UT9nNpmmLCRR9OmJjLqcKviOmoQEegve8ufNOnA6VJbQMXZzPcHmetDly4XlV+XM6hS9Gv xY33Vm3nG9l1MIc/594UdaiQzziHg+mw/7QPxAcov7Nok/7wvsmvAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0 ZQAyMDIxLTA0LTE4VDEwOjM1OjE1KzAwOjAwej841gAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0w NC0xOFQxMDozNToxNSswMDowMAtigGoAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Maximum Joy's _Disco Not Disco 3_: "Silent Street-Silent Dub" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:38:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message of "Sat, 17 Apr 2021 22:04:57 +0000") Message-ID: <87k0ozq3n8.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: > Me neither. I was giving a feedback from the point of view of a user > who disables all beeps, visual or not, and who knows he's not alone: > Spacemacs, Doom Emacs and Prelude (and probably others, [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: > Me neither. I was giving a feedback from the point of view of a user > who disables all beeps, visual or not, and who knows he's not alone: > Spacemacs, Doom Emacs and Prelude (and probably others, I did not > check) all set ring-bell-function to nil. That's an interesting data point. (But I assume you mean #'ignore?) So perhaps we should instead discuss whether we should change the default of `ring-bell-function', and leave `visible-bell' as is? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 06:31:04 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Apr 18 02:31:04 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45138 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lY0xT-0004PL-Qu for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 02:31:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34910) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY0xR-0004Ok-Tb for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 02:31:02 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:47261) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY0xM-0002fL-Dc; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 02:30:56 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:3682 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lY0xK-0003hg-A2; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 02:30:54 -0400 Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 09:30:34 +0300 Message-Id: <83a6pwumt1.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> (message from Gregory Heytings on Sat, 17 Apr 2021 20:59:52 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 20:59:52 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> > Cc: jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN > > I checked on macOS, and the only apps (at least, the only apps among the > ones I use) that repeatedly beep are the terminal and Emacs. Other apps > only beep when you do something "wrong", that is, when they cannot do what > you want (for example when you ask the program to paste something when > there is nothing to paste), or when they open an important dialog. The > terminal also beeps when it cannot do what you want (for example when you > press TAB and it cannot complete the current input). In comparison, Emacs > beeps a lot. Emacs beeps a lot if you do things that make it beep. Like try to go where no one has gone before. By contrast, other apps beep when they see fit. A MUA plays sounds when a new email arrives; the desktop beeps when it has some notification that it thinks you must see and act upon, etc. etc. I don't see how Emacs is the odd one out here. And we are bikeshedding again: the opinions are clearly divided, and Emacs lets each one of us customize this feature as they see fit. So why is arguing about the default so important, when there's clearly no consensus? I say let's just close the issue as wontfix and move on.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Sat, 17 Apr 2021 23:30:15 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Index: AQHXM9XKE4UVBErikkyDdMPqlap936q5WUfQ Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 23:30:15 +0000 Message-ID: <SA2PR10MB44748CF5BAD3E7C922C07DBFF34B9@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: heytings.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b66c51bc-4b65-4503-8f42-08d901f8c163 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Apr 2021 23:30:15.6356 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: YA8qsIxHDz3S+fWV6bAKlQ4NvtiRVAt7POMREayqqRjLrSb5TUUpKZ+cxlcCuC1EfF5cqAjMOLiNtztAt2FIMg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR10MB4634 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9957 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=975 adultscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104170167 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: _WT2j84q5PwRi075CCkTewpi8XEBnEin X-Proofpoint-GUID: _WT2j84q5PwRi075CCkTewpi8XEBnEin X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > I was giving a feedback from the point of view of a user who > disables all beeps, visual or not, and who knows he's not alone: > Spacemacs, Doom Emacs and Prelude (and probably others, I did not check) > all set ring-bell-function to nil. I too disable all audible beeps. But I don't set `ring-bell-function' to nil. I set it to function `echo-bell', which shows `echo-bell-string' in the echo area for `echo-bell-delay' sec. It's shown at the far right of the echo area. (I mistakenly wrote earlier (msg #424) that it's shown in the mode-line. I meant echo-area.)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 22:05:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 18:05:00 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44842 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXt3k-0000ML-L7 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 18:05:00 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:42320) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lXt3i-0000MC-Uk for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 18:04:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618697097; bh=JE5cHR9RhnyjsuY4B+SAgrp21M6FXk0C2bk26bjsXQM=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=mgP/nxZwdibYuB6lfHEbUqkv9Bpw9FqskLuZCztCfGk0Wl3kwIh1aGiJXrcEtet6h 5W6VaY5YvAGyoiLnNAoWSuVyO06MhhspGAznh6sjcDIFg/kuqr7Yeecp0w5TDnSznX Z+0gpgZeVan1Lri22xG6n2fnvT0gnqmQm0bBbrh0lS0d9/RG3rYyxhMpcOV03ERc8S KRJTnVRcRLDsrTrtvSN+AjZrym0JjAM6gz70jeo97/vzb2tE0i78RBZECBt8R0jItT s2WOmiEtKVeqlwNHUpiJWoKS+CO44a5cE4zsoSvVQkhFqQgGiWBOwvT9fnCTJkX9Jx B5skt3YEbWSrg== Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 22:04:57 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <1869622e166ad3c37a69@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > That said, I'm not going to argue about this very much. > Me neither. I was giving a feedback from the point of view of a user who disables all beeps, visual or not, and who knows he's not alone: Spacemacs, Doom Emacs and Prelude (and probably others, I did not check) all set ring-bell-function to nil.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 21:52:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 17:52:29 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44822 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXsrd-0008U0-5L for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:52:29 -0400 Received: from md5i.com ([75.151.244.229]:50122) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mwd@HIDDEN>) id 1lXsrb-0008Tm-Nt for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:52:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=md5i.com; s=dkim; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:References: Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=30FLAGuM7gNQzveyB1L1h9LtwLS58ow/ln3kTViBEk4=; b=fEFqCntoi+qJOepSef7pU+wZzM xHrPRe9dL3jMcuy24g0x13eAUGOJLkfiPcaVNFvCcjabq+cFp6E+vxCDUKiB+N6eguj9BhXhCEzI0 Bryoo4aVun0ETJHgIasMArdN8; Received: from abode.md5i.com ([192.168.177.1] helo=miko) by md5i.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94) (envelope-from <mwd@HIDDEN>) id 1lXsrT-004nlV-9q; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:52:18 -0400 From: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:52:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message of "Sat, 17 Apr 2021 21:17:08 +0000") Message-ID: <874kg4vast.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: >>> I checked on macOS, and the only apps (at least, the only apps >>> among the ones I use) that repeatedly beep are the terminal and >>> Emacs. Other apps only beep when you do something "wrong", that is, >>> when they cannot do what you want (for example when you ask the >>> program to paste something when there is nothing to paste), or when >>> they open an important dialog. The terminal also beeps when it >>> cannot do what you want (for example when you press TAB and it >>> cannot complete the current input). In comparison, Emacs beeps a >>> lot. >> >> Really? I find that, in general, Emacs only beeps when it cannot do >> what I want (for example, C-n at EOB) or I cancel an operation (C-g >> or ESC ESC ESC). Under what other circumstances are you >> encountering beeping? >> > > For example, every time you press C-g, and every time you search for > something that it cannot find. When you press C-g Emacs does what you > want, so why beep? You could make an argument for that. Though ESC ESC ESC only beeps if it canceled something. > When you search for something that isn't there you already see that it > isn't there, so why beep? This one is easy. It's so I know that it isn't there, that nothing was found. It's much easier to hear the beep than to realize visually that it hasn't been found, and it is very useful to hear the beep before search wraps around. Moreover, I think this falls into the category you called: >>> when you do something "wrong", that is, when they cannot do what you >>> want. That said, I'm not going to argue about this very much. I just wanted to solicit an opinion. Outside of possibly C-g, I don't see that Emacs beeps any more than it should. If the default is changed, I can change it back on my end. -- Michael Welsh Duggan (md5i@HIDDEN)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 21:17:11 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 17:17:11 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44811 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXsJT-0007gV-1X for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:17:11 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:42256) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lXsJR-0007gN-GC for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:17:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618694228; bh=1KyjTaSehBypcZqRxBgorJfFXL/WilbxjLKhLrOSMpc=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=TrxdZEAa18MYOE3VHTCPV+h/JsOJsctoB4mIP3CvSqGrbYjMhqhFM8zo+1N38lIIb vGBlGad6AOLAxlQKrPBFC8SGZITWIOuDvYbN4lDT6nKzo9Vvjs+PZ4FYfXePPNpUHx CZe4+qM3A01bqziRlt67fEuAqZGzPvkspdOJXIg1/NcoRB38ytoQxUrFv4RQtKzx0p mDbO8kKsgOIDMUuc9jn7ZGkifq0UtpD79g9j2Bc8cD486ieGhhXUc6NU42FWP4Aiaj e3+eYwWWtUoW4nLwrjEuWLhTAKm2Ti6JzONpBpNpcbilpGPrY9q2dLVZmb5DuqX9a+ kc+CCPIOgRiKQ== Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 21:17:08 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <1869622e165c625e097b@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >> I checked on macOS, and the only apps (at least, the only apps among >> the ones I use) that repeatedly beep are the terminal and Emacs. Other >> apps only beep when you do something "wrong", that is, when they cannot >> do what you want (for example when you ask the program to paste >> something when there is nothing to paste), or when they open an >> important dialog. The terminal also beeps when it cannot do what you >> want (for example when you press TAB and it cannot complete the current >> input). In comparison, Emacs beeps a lot. > > Really? I find that, in general, Emacs only beeps when it cannot do > what I want (for example, C-n at EOB) or I cancel an operation (C-g or > ESC ESC ESC). Under what other circumstances are you encountering > beeping? > For example, every time you press C-g, and every time you search for something that it cannot find. When you press C-g Emacs does what you want, so why beep? When you search for something that isn't there you already see that it isn't there, so why beep?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 21:09:58 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 17:09:58 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44799 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXsCT-0007Uq-VU for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:09:58 -0400 Received: from md5i.com ([75.151.244.229]:49864) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mwd@HIDDEN>) id 1lXsCR-0007Ub-RL for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:09:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=md5i.com; s=dkim; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:References: Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ZjonNWIHq3onqbIGLIS33nLVCKpnmyXhsXJidkl6DLs=; b=Lp52zHZnAVTfPLYf1HSan+t0ew gtcIz8aFDo1rVoeh/eV6bhBBjJdze5jW0p+MC4UgN7JpL+3BvHAimTXSkoZ5OISw/UFc3XG14oh91 A1usZqjCMbWbkjDtWWeWbodXZ; Received: from abode.md5i.com ([192.168.177.1] helo=miko) by md5i.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.94) (envelope-from <mwd@HIDDEN>) id 1lXsCD-004ned-1R; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:09:40 -0400 From: Michael Welsh Duggan <mwd@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:09:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message of "Sat, 17 Apr 2021 20:59:52 +0000") Message-ID: <87a6pwvcrv.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: >>>> So in this instance, defaulting `visible-bell' to "on" would make >>>> `C-g' more intrusive/obnoxious than previously... which is the >>>> opposite effect than what was originally discussed in this bug >>>> report. >>> >>> Can anything be done about that, though? >> >> I think this might point toward not doing anything about the default >> -- people who don't like beeps will switch them off on the OS level. >> That is, flipping the default will make `C-g' more intrusive for >> people who've already made a decision to ignore beeps. >> > > Note that for GNU/Linux users who use a more exotic window manager > instead of Gnome or KDE, it's the opposite: they have to make an > active decision to hear beeps. IOW, they will not hear any beep > unless they configure their computer to do so. > > I checked on macOS, and the only apps (at least, the only apps among > the ones I use) that repeatedly beep are the terminal and Emacs. > Other apps only beep when you do something "wrong", that is, when they > cannot do what you want (for example when you ask the program to paste > something when there is nothing to paste), or when they open an > important dialog. The terminal also beeps when it cannot do what you > want (for example when you press TAB and it cannot complete the > current input). In comparison, Emacs beeps a lot. Really? I find that, in general, Emacs only beeps when it cannot do what I want (for example, C-n at EOB) or I cancel an operation (C-g or ESC ESC ESC). Under what other circumstances are you encountering beeping? -- Michael Welsh Duggan (md5i@HIDDEN)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 20:59:55 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 16:59:55 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44778 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXs2l-000571-Bx for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 16:59:55 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:42216) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lXs2k-00056t-0L for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 16:59:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618693192; bh=tUZG58BQRxzFFP4Oln+Ze3WPXvL5tqXmjd5VTPBnbiU=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=JRjev93ZffcbmI1mCnCDTPajgliZiykgeOC8JsuzdKJmpmEMx9IQ7ZGztNlFsL9BI FhvohFRJc1/NYq8+FmtbxLUVkyfUvSfS/1UiP07LVAd6rHc2eJ9BGBaVLi3gMWgmy4 qAiPRikKNbBBufnWbxS4zYmcSIBLBcdqonZa6XpvIB+0pN7C7S1CPhxENu8nHosU+k NeWTg4L7Q+fNeuL9VWnub7m51hfGghb69vCn5du4YKn/35oY7NiwdgFnbm1zLH14iw eJQNg2dLufJ/7zWUqHHxoDF42YBhE2/q0xczsT+VbfhSoXu/DHzgXcHb4Zj/Ofdd0U tyWlyVyfCw7TQ== Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 20:59:52 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <1869622e1602a39e56a6@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >>> So in this instance, defaulting `visible-bell' to "on" would make >>> `C-g' more intrusive/obnoxious than previously... which is the >>> opposite effect than what was originally discussed in this bug report. >> >> Can anything be done about that, though? > > I think this might point toward not doing anything about the default -- > people who don't like beeps will switch them off on the OS level. That > is, flipping the default will make `C-g' more intrusive for people > who've already made a decision to ignore beeps. > Note that for GNU/Linux users who use a more exotic window manager instead of Gnome or KDE, it's the opposite: they have to make an active decision to hear beeps. IOW, they will not hear any beep unless they configure their computer to do so. I checked on macOS, and the only apps (at least, the only apps among the ones I use) that repeatedly beep are the terminal and Emacs. Other apps only beep when you do something "wrong", that is, when they cannot do what you want (for example when you ask the program to paste something when there is nothing to paste), or when they open an important dialog. The terminal also beeps when it cannot do what you want (for example when you press TAB and it cannot complete the current input). In comparison, Emacs beeps a lot.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 19:17:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 15:17:46 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44637 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXqRu-0000Ve-C1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:17:46 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f43.google.com ([209.85.221.43]:40797) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <contovob@HIDDEN>) id 1lXqRs-0000VR-Hj for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:17:45 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f43.google.com with SMTP id e5so1234581wrg.7 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 12:17:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tcd.ie; s=google21; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=9oisx1K77N8HVzm6Cbfbvk+kFMDWxoCfYB0ZOSvcxzc=; b=AfbqCmaElCDJkU4lJLMnFbli0+hX+Qo/Wa+hRBEJkZPquaPl8mCMPua7WDnKlojwmB OQFC7PFThVPhv0xA2Bsak+yGDoB9oFpi8crmrNkPyN3RUm9bXYGGvo/mA4mbvGpGm2tI KwSEF7aq0Ghgv29wGqHR5nywbSW/dTRNbqcV5ANSrMDTcowd3Pd8KtQ8ywZ2/LvAdt2+ i7MM/RCKSgUigtQ+qj0u2RRNkm7gmDNq2biwD6hZ5lhm422YwJs43Sq5QzHCu5F8YckR DozfXXVIgEHe+MzIWzmoZ4tQYbXUU5LTKZ1QYA/tFcItlh6vsAwPWulFTXh8SkwxjHdA cARw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=9oisx1K77N8HVzm6Cbfbvk+kFMDWxoCfYB0ZOSvcxzc=; b=bPdAxvLCl9CVXnCV9kSkbGh3kfobMWzfpLIWz5tYq9KoFWGtRQS3SrdGqBAaKikUrr hpXTv2WjspRM3UkTk/NQ7fMOxZg1jxWUGp7Om/B78wG/rk+EL5z46FCslWiH+f/7x1lm 2gNDKZxcaPV1z7yEixET+RkHN4NSdqk0eI40QF6J0iES2rJRJh+CDyAQIYa4prDw7I8b kcX3dmsLkI0xwIAqanAfwxryTN2PeRp6hBlJWgAPlyWOnYhaTQEznVZ0oR7CBmfKfmyz otjiytbof5ojN+hEgWgaFnEOox89UIUO/VxYW/lGmPOfjyDN9C5udwByYLrimS/78Bqe X0mA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5314zcSzDvH2zr0FyXQuVFSP/JV3gtRhoOqkw4a76pSDHXT38F+6 XJUNrm8jhqSlpb6ztttVcOIgvQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw52F4Qrvs7h1Bbo02I1YwACK9USY/8yfS6vcZ/pZSxhCpHCY3X2W91yTlstDFAE6zgdsCwaw== X-Received: by 2002:adf:d1ce:: with SMTP id b14mr5634720wrd.159.1618687058773; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([2a02:8084:20e2:c380:f410:82e8:3a21:eedf]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c77sm13672808wme.37.2021.04.17.12.17.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 17 Apr 2021 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 20:17:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:32:14 -0500") Message-ID: <877dl0hga8.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > >> It's a Debian/bullseye laptop with Gnome Shell -- so I guess it's a >> Gnome Shell setting? (The first thing I do with any machine is switch >> off any "alert" beeps.) > > Oh, I don't use any of that stuff. I have my own custom .xinitrc > instead with as little stuff as possible in it. So I'm not sure how I > could even set such a setting. I suppose it's some gconf stuff taking > place behind the scenes...? > > Searching online shows this might be it: > > sudo su gdm -c "gconftool-2 --set /desktop/gnome/sound/event_sounds > --type bool false" > > But I don't have gconftool-2 so my Debian bullseye machine is probably > missing some prerequisites. FWIW, in my ~/.xsessionrc I have: [ -x "$(command -v xset)" ] && xset b off And for readline in general, in /etc/inputrc I have: # do not bell on tab-completion set bell-style none I think I added this last one to silence loud beeps in the virtual terminal. But then I don't use a full desktop environment like GNOME, so maybe these settings aren't as relevant or comprehensive there. -- Basil
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 17:02:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 13:02:00 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44263 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXoKW-0005Lt-G3 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:02:00 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f47.google.com ([209.85.128.47]:46957) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lXoKV-0005Lg-0b for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:01:59 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f47.google.com with SMTP id k4-20020a7bc4040000b02901331d89fb83so3677173wmi.5 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:01:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hYQsL5HM7mOUIgpiquCFx2Vo2Dhd0oTh7nBYH6oXfWo=; b=pX+1d5C8/URFs9FGs6GuGYYQeASYqg+90jXbt+n8nxU9aXrQOBtWLpPpm9Cya9QzIV PUyfAB4YbKfcxTXFTDhJ354by9RCcUR3l3DzTiuk2mPsVmmWxfZQ4O062fp0tZWg+EHC 3ZC0/fjzFLR7iYLL1lS8u95upEzm2jZ+JofDMOaRXyxa88125RfdeWC7xDHCbb9kyQQk axTge8bfFf52ebMo/q83kIaPo2fdvPo29t0+aQ1Pxm032ORR2kVfUvj8V0Vv3QGcPGA+ g6HuDJ/ciU4AvG8OtSow4bFWkpDPLr5yW33Zr02mP4mUyru1R5mkI0Etr8lBnFdNDI/4 0WQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hYQsL5HM7mOUIgpiquCFx2Vo2Dhd0oTh7nBYH6oXfWo=; b=SqNpri0SH26bw/tLLcFSDYg47JIbpQTV7UTOyxS9jVLhJuKUFZ8Dm7Jy/XRgqf+FC1 wGa8uW46nX3qDZKDEoDiuC56mPQ1EiozGuKeCTAu5BXf99ZGBr0ayrOpmemg9sGrjZNT kjzQheTSyuGsRGpIRVDizwHmbLYYkc8Xhi+P7xEKiYH8IakgbN7NY8C8UnLxMc76nTfz bVN7mJ/bhcPniYLt0EexTOqdmqBjcxV8vNW6zkynFdeI4OBEJ3poWMhNrWvJQZaElf4k +nCjNgEoa7w+d9TchBTZlNqbSBQyN2Cy25VO3PdN9HqyBskVJl8xdVvzpvRPJIJ9O1uu abig== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5311srb5GTGqt3wDGCxvuiLm940XeonfqDqvrqyJm6SVmWop4zZH SX7CcIIYqOUaIgsPndUtr0Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwRU+m8OFQTfpdaUjKSz3rVCShbQQtygtWyF0AKkKcBQntuXH3yO5f0oilfbLKYWJc+qunHog== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:49c2:: with SMTP id w185mr13319682wma.163.1618678913269; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id m17sm17849170wrq.63.2021.04.17.10.01.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <b05d9d49-48dc-ae77-1004-4e5de86564d6@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 20:01:51 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 17.04.2021 16:13, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: >>> So in this instance, defaulting `visible-bell' to "on" would make `C-g' >>> more intrusive/obnoxious than previously... which is the opposite >>> effect than what was originally discussed in this bug report. >> Can anything be done about that, though? > I think this might point toward not doing anything about the default -- > people who don't like beeps will switch them off on the OS level. That > is, flipping the default will make `C-g' more intrusive for people > who've already made a decision to ignore beeps. Let's not venture into the xkcd.com/1172 territory, please. What we should be asking is which one is the better default.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 16:59:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 12:59:24 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44258 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXoI0-0005GZ-19 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 12:59:24 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f44.google.com ([209.85.221.44]:45959) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1lXoHy-0005GM-BX for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 12:59:22 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f44.google.com with SMTP id h4so20609722wrt.12 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:59:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Vuu2cjTh4UVznHNKLhfsKgoNvH4tuldgceX9Ln0OFcQ=; b=jB83yonQpsM+Yu/vb7ffZlfa5CYK6d5y1qUs+ctxcuqBOaRfIN3HnP46CAPBId/sYz HuC9NuhJtUeg4tiMez94NCT39WPSBD874BHMpK7/7TBl+OWBLELaXqmtotpX9GJ9kdEi 0aKS5K5MzLkIT8NZtMsIFIZDoob6MldFw3K/BadhbI07hBfRvHEcMriZXRB3eg49shPz ClbnU7y87zjZ8UdsLVhrWEzqYw8hYhAPTuc1xC8YjYsVKWQIkHaKqQR2aMbewPeEOayf rJPOTMxZjviD5c4FDxNf8Ad2m3kF4gI9ubcMHY6WDpP+nrEYFl354z38wOxqTBYqMVmT H0Dw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Vuu2cjTh4UVznHNKLhfsKgoNvH4tuldgceX9Ln0OFcQ=; b=PiNaHxuu2rIrPhBucNGvYMnRegPmt/jd76nUgIOw/p86KNttJGVqeRKm10CCc7cMFk ITE8/9jFI5+FE2tMHt+g/DmL3BmyuQT9GnXr5pNW6jTzp0WqwbkzIJ7MrPasmN/AeEK9 JdEeTV7qSL2gZqu+nRUZpNSfH7D8jwbyns9QKHHJZ64KXADkOo96vZyyzEuMWcHGkbVv u+kH8DZ+l7aG4+vemK4G62gWjnuLEANip/L+G85e09G8nJt/MgGYE2wH+OznNb6UrWQk keLSChkf+ilWj4SgPltFa5yeONDJWa8/d5Eqje+MCVlcfNH+kaTJto0ILpwXH1lbCoV+ THcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533jOU0Ge1u5DKHThhajLX9jS4ouYDoimI9Dmp3raUB+Kt6na4PV DzNje6yvOHpucc/JxevLLj8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwXgpJaAVAONNvo1S0q0lQAKf1trUHvWTV22ijVPp60qDO4y9Tg/dmn/IXo8NtcSvsfoKs/+A== X-Received: by 2002:adf:f410:: with SMTP id g16mr5126066wro.345.1618678756497; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.6] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id z17sm16171914wro.1.2021.04.17.09.59.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <b008597a-f8c7-2290-891a-c58a3afbf390@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 19:59:13 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) On 17.04.2021 15:55, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > >>> IMO, the default behavior on GNU/Linux (inverting video on the first and >>> last line of the frame) is horrible (but perhaps less so than an actual >>> bell), > > Hm... when I try this on Debian/bullseye, it inverts the video on the > two first lines in the frame. But I seem to recall it working the way > you describe, so perhaps there's differences between various > toolkits/libraries used by Emacs in this area? Same here. It's either GTK3 build, or its HiDPI support (if you also have a HiDPI screen). >>> and the default behavior on macOS is too intrusive (but again >>> perhaps less so than an actual bell). >> >> On MS-Windows, we use a system API that flashes the caption bar of the >> selected-frame's window. > > Then it sounds like visible-bell should be visible enough on all the > three major systems we support. From what I see, visible-bell does nothing in 'emacs -nw'. Not sure how easy that would be to fix. > However, I just noticed that an "emacs -Q" doesn't beep at all on this > machine -- because I've switched off all "alert" beeps in the OS > interface. So `C-g' just says "Quit" in the echo area, and nothing > else. > > So in this instance, defaulting `visible-bell' to "on" would make `C-g' > more intrusive/obnoxious than previously... which is the opposite > effect than what was originally discussed in this bug report. Well, we probably do want it to have some effect in general, unless the user has customized is off in some way or another.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 14:08:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 10:08:18 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44091 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXlcP-0001Az-UB for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:08:18 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f176.google.com ([209.85.210.176]:34452) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lXlcO-0001An-HV for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:08:17 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f176.google.com with SMTP id 10so11327542pfl.1 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 07:08:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OScm95Vcr4et6PV+i0eDgmxjfInIT4tDxF4kO0KynnI=; b=C36F66awx6AyCEXNQ//5DZ9NGNGxS1wNBZ30hNOH4zsfUYpPkdTj5oaDheljilD6o8 2byzNbBcBD93Lj3/RGwxfS8uyz1q1Wh2OaBr5k3unR4V1ifAM4wzRj/zftzWawxc9g4X F1LirJQbYyigt4yaZPaOGrE53LUERdU1DOQzdzFp6hOkO/nZWx1I/S01ZJA+0HhRERQE fvv+ryi/LgZiGzxNj4KcYkuvSBD3TkBGphIYyovK7+T0/t8HarXOBMHZLkSH2Sz85ke9 J20riocGWbEZQI6YoCQAdpjLKZ7iSmPykjmDzWEbTrUO8v6vC4GUcqTynC7jvhGqLgYU 30nA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5306Z6nLwJxUunqs57R1wAPJS5oZMRHjbpOSLuT0OogTAjHGjRMg W7vM/TY1WZOJHYQUv5z/xCyXhLjEtz/j66KT25M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyyRKuuNX2C3HESLDbk5vFpIOfWhMH8+M5iyOi3jEVvG0fUHQ5oPdCaIXKKfSF+8/gNkv3DOX6laKKYZ747TmY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2353:b029:25c:7dc5:a718 with SMTP id j19-20020a056a002353b029025c7dc5a718mr2269078pfj.58.1618668490864; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 07:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:08:10 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:08:10 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmnWfo3xSbWaJcit__JneJxHftesWgASsb4ibdaaeE9y3w@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > I poked around, and it's "Settings -> Sound -> System Sounds" in Gnome > Shell that I had switched to a volume of zero. Does that have an option to use a visual bell instead? >> It is my understanding that Emacs is unusual in using the system bell >> though. It would be better to avoid it completely, even when that >> setting is on. > > I turned the volume up, and saying "lTAB" in the shell (in a Console > window) then beeped audibly. So the default here is to make sounds. > And I just checked the same on my Apple laptop -- the shell there also > beeps a lot. What is less clear to me is why Emacs should mimic the behavior of terminal emulators of 1980s era terminals that mimicked 1970s era terminals. :-)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 14:05:35 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 10:05:35 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44087 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXlZn-00017C-CV for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:05:35 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50194) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lXlZl-000170-KG for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:05:34 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33886) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lXlZd-00070g-Bu; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:05:28 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:2847 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lXlZc-0003jL-IL; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:05:25 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 17:05:17 +0300 Message-Id: <837dl1vwf6.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:39:04 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: gregory@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, > jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN > Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:39:04 +0200 > > > It is my understanding that Emacs is unusual in using the system bell > > though. It would be better to avoid it completely, even when that > > setting is on. > > I turned the volume up, and saying "lTAB" in the shell (in a Console > window) then beeped audibly. So the default here is to make sounds. > And I just checked the same on my Apple laptop -- the shell there also > beeps a lot. That is my experience as well: programs make sounds nowadays all the time, and one needs to customize the system to make them shut up.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 13:39:17 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 09:39:17 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42500 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXlAL-0008Vv-IK for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:39:17 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:49782) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lXlAJ-0008Vi-9i for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:39:16 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ARs1XAwFEYZhGCslhdZYCYZC17qwsVhdYREB1ft5ZDs=; b=IwQrjtRx8OL8WaRz9EbKevkUdS XZkhZwikB5Q3qqvAOSmq3K3Rn/Uei0p1iAY5S7LY33ZVOC7t+MVOTu8Mx5LBmuy+zYJay7ecqYxgh CIjsL4T+aZiardU+58iA+JmXy//NmiOyIChG5QBzdEmlCnuko+Um8MW7SNRDETXHg4Vc=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lXlA9-0003bO-67; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:39:07 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAFVBMVEV1i3KToIhSMCKV KyiZUy+gZEH///+y66yLAAAAAWJLR0QGYWa4fQAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEQ0iE7ysIgYAAAGXSURBVDjL bZPhkcQgCIVzHSQtaCoQbSDC/5sN9t/KAWJissfsbLJ+ywOfuCweP5vGutyxeXRy/bwSljk88Wdd ReMLbY/o2svmYH2B9dHFK0IMRA2voKbxawAjZgSLctojhMNAln9CrrLCBAgp4jEBkCyq0Fg4MTpQ KWxAjREb0w1UitvZKzfkDihLV1C46bokQQrBMzhrBrFliBq/atQiMqhpA6iUkN6VvJZRw9qVfeSz VN2O/HYwdk5951LwBTL485bKdU8QQ7JPnUHMvhxTHFJwS9VnDUYHLBamubiDLOKnuXvMXckG5atv cG7XLOF+tjxJmYm6zrrzKSOjmssPYMeaVYrNXOGfyXYpXrAqH8Xxu13kOcP87kZ2rxDq/+5ahlh7 uyupFwixr2nEvWewtfuMDjQjzkMNiQfwcziLzgT4CfJ1DYqPg48PR9h1fAhIBgvV4X4ep0nlkyrp jWK9WAIgnLuBiuauaCW7UQJiNXBlgN0oBTYdFa2GafEkNbrSt/IZQLuParu8yfiYVNIa++E7r2Ou /gDRweL8KyG8ZQAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0wNC0xN1QxMzozNDoxOSswMDowMGF9 MmgAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMDQtMTdUMTM6MzQ6MTkrMDA6MDAQIIrUAAAAAElF TkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Blaine L. Reininger & Mikel Rouse's _Colorado Suite_: "Side Wind" Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:39:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:32:14 -0500") Message-ID: <871rb9qbd3.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Oh, I don't use any of that stuff. I have my own custom .xinitrc > instead with as little stuff as possible in it. So I'm not sure how I > could even set such a setting. I suppose it's some gconf st [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Oh, I don't use any of that stuff. I have my own custom .xinitrc > instead with as little stuff as possible in it. So I'm not sure how I > could even set such a setting. I suppose it's some gconf stuff taking > place behind the scenes...? I poked around, and it's "Settings -> Sound -> System Sounds" in Gnome Shell that I had switched to a volume of zero. > It is my understanding that Emacs is unusual in using the system bell > though. It would be better to avoid it completely, even when that > setting is on. I turned the volume up, and saying "lTAB" in the shell (in a Console window) then beeped audibly. So the default here is to make sounds. And I just checked the same on my Apple laptop -- the shell there also beeps a lot. (I haven't checked whether any other programs beep at me.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 13:32:22 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 09:32:22 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42496 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXl3d-0008M7-Q5 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:32:22 -0400 Received: from mail-pg1-f170.google.com ([209.85.215.170]:40583) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lXl3c-0008Lv-Ja for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:32:20 -0400 Received: by mail-pg1-f170.google.com with SMTP id b17so21070441pgh.7 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 06:32:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+iq9aq3hDBhHWPqiBU9FH/LCHmUxh8DQPyftgQ83Gow=; b=WE6B/3uhtBFK0dz0RSFUJKGTu8BUqMC0wkE9NhaApyZWieM90BsN22c2vRa3lIDjNy nXXi67VmKjXqSBFGF0RkShBDSS7INpZHDDJNUaw06RMJgvvDT+JwLFMZF8rSGIbtURTM H4TmhGf6XIUfBEdaJRkwCwzBbfKAF3wLO5EXPiSgTsSyqHaAe92V+SjoIPkzsWD1kvdI Nrq7cDgXVrl0/HjRI29/xYFzumkFc8lb34tZ47Cksctw8g0M5s1g1Iv6wsJJQSRa5stz MdLCgitHbig1Sm6ZAWD3VxG7nUdW3aiEOoateRL8e7iWKlEWE3MFjRoGfhC+yfXOFst2 /bBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532RVenXzSkPB2aiFcKI169nboKYGCX0Wx694ho0YrzaxyOSoj10 0d5iUvLl/QV/+j9Lc4ftsVwsxIflGkC99MQFZhM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzvQlGFgnKom/+jnyEvDx+D9r1clAd4+K9QucwZct4q23BOmdc8CQ6o83GqcAy8Qa6CmqBz4TUJbd6tBujVedY= X-Received: by 2002:a63:d358:: with SMTP id u24mr115454pgi.345.1618666334962; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 06:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:32:14 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:32:14 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmnvmSJrd4kU0i8V2KpH_0K2_DhrL8H8y54r-8qv-YYVhQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > It's a Debian/bullseye laptop with Gnome Shell -- so I guess it's a > Gnome Shell setting? (The first thing I do with any machine is switch > off any "alert" beeps.) Oh, I don't use any of that stuff. I have my own custom .xinitrc instead with as little stuff as possible in it. So I'm not sure how I could even set such a setting. I suppose it's some gconf stuff taking place behind the scenes...? Searching online shows this might be it: sudo su gdm -c "gconftool-2 --set /desktop/gnome/sound/event_sounds --type bool false" But I don't have gconftool-2 so my Debian bullseye machine is probably missing some prerequisites. > I think this might point toward not doing anything about the default -- > people who don't like beeps will switch them off on the OS level. That > is, flipping the default will make `C-g' more intrusive for people > who've already made a decision to ignore beeps. It is my understanding that Emacs is unusual in using the system bell though. It would be better to avoid it completely, even when that setting is on. Would it perhaps make sense to make visual-bell support that setting instead?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:16:25 +0000 From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Thread-Index: AQHXM4pxBjEn0B0HCEKLSGtx+BQpS6q4ru/A Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:16:25 +0000 Message-ID: <SA2PR10MB447485C56774DF08218E2B45F34B9@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gnus.org; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 72e9d023-6134-4bbe-3e61-08d901a300f2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Apr 2021 13:16:25.5862 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: R0yAIJ3q3VJ2LAAWloi9hxCfdEXeF6wTJUGtYoWHR4AIq7pYX2d9oeJ/LkIvntHZS7NGGueNZbRwgTIFITr04w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SA2PR10MB4763 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9956 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104170093 X-Proofpoint-GUID: oPRZrUtzPRsOY6ysSKhZuw3kcC2MQTut X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: oPRZrUtzPRsOY6ysSKhZuw3kcC2MQTut X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, "1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, "stefan@HIDDEN" <stefan@HIDDEN>, "jasonspiro4@HIDDEN" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, "monnier@HIDDEN" <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > >> IMO, the default behavior on GNU/Linux (inverting video on the first a= nd > >> last line of the frame) is horrible (but perhaps less so than an actua= l > >> bell), >=20 > Hm... when I try this on Debian/bullseye, it inverts the video on the > two first lines in the frame. But I seem to recall it working the way > you describe, so perhaps there's differences between various > toolkits/libraries used by Emacs in this area? >=20 > >> and the default behavior on macOS is too intrusive (but again > >> perhaps less so than an actual bell). > > > > On MS-Windows, we use a system API that flashes the caption bar of the > > selected-frame's window. >=20 > Then it sounds like visible-bell should be visible enough on all the > three major systems we support. >=20 > However, I just noticed that an "emacs -Q" doesn't beep at all on this > machine -- because I've switched off all "alert" beeps in the OS > interface. So `C-g' just says "Quit" in the echo area, and nothing > else. >=20 > So in this instance, defaulting `visible-bell' to "on" would make `C-g' > more intrusive/obnoxious than previously... which is the opposite > effect than what was originally discussed in this bug report. Just as plain `ding' can be annoying for some users, so can this or that kind of visible indication. It would be good if, at least on some systems and preferably on all, some degree of user customization were available. (Yes, I know that `visible-bell' already offers some customization.) One possibility of a customization choice could be a notification in the mode-line - just one example. For one way to do that, see the tiny library `echo-bell.el' (initial code from Miles Bader). It offers a minor mode, and options to define the kind of mode-line indication. https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/echo-bell.el
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 13:14:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 09:14:07 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42467 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXklz-0007ti-50 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:14:07 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:49562) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lXklx-0007t3-98 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:14:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=iFCofPxSOqfNvFkRWgRY5N1kjHjhYaFdMo1I1zxdvY8=; b=Ti0xJBxsm0//d1pCIkfVHhYAlp xsOIFmrIUEIJy5CSd1abG5x8TwaOvBuwGUdRwv62d5Ojlri3CwD9dxUs6vw2vYMA1/Uklxcp4cnQ/ mitvJf5Htestj25m/H+TGuYNxh6rLvhhqR3awy3oKqQhBRb903xTL5y9EiGkJj5K0wpw=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lXklm-0003RP-9W; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:13:57 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEWtp5nl3ci0rqPN vq+alYyRf2dbUFETCgz///+G0CkAAAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEQwxNQ6MjF4AAAFc SURBVDjLldTdboMgFAdwykx67Zrd02Oz3baebrvtBcYH8OveVniBTl5/gCJKNNn+iTHyywH5ULKL 10OOf4YDmmg4UDBhxIXrlDHZHQhdtFu5GaABRBMEBXNgQU+cu8FDuG3BVAFBOx/HqGyKdJhQ5KEW NuOtm+DUC9mrnpeNMvmZgAkhhWzxU9/7WgQgksR2FVQIecezaZchiBQxZTyTqnssoAW7D9h0VbcA SEwzwVrUzzk8UgN71eZSPE8DgAVIri+oVL/X16ICk7xI9ezyEAjmxaVR/UcIlQbU0Dg4zkHatfIA erYa7huwv1/FHGILPYf34kstACyAnvr3GhANb1uQrgLVi9WsjsEysVZhtk6NrxtNkFUuJedZ6QER fNyBi8dHG+YOqQcrw/E2cPEAlFlgQVdAGB0/0iioAPeVLrtihLoSV5EMJw3PzFdkBtzf5BX8+0UG Nv4l/4ZfnCnXdaRaFEoAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDQtMTdUMTI6NDk6NTIrMDA6 MDDmYy/eAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA0LTE3VDEyOjQ5OjUyKzAwOjAwlz6XYgAA AABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Blaine L. Reininger's _Live in Brussels_: "track" Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:13:51 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:07:35 -0500") Message-ID: <875z0lqcj4.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > >> However, I just noticed that an "emacs -Q" doesn't beep at all on this >> machine -- because I've switched off all "alert" beeps in the OS >> interfac [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, monnier@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > >> However, I just noticed that an "emacs -Q" doesn't beep at all on this >> machine -- because I've switched off all "alert" beeps in the OS >> interface. So `C-g' just says "Quit" in the echo area, and nothing >> else. > > What machine is that? It's a Debian/bullseye laptop with Gnome Shell -- so I guess it's a Gnome Shell setting? (The first thing I do with any machine is switch off any "alert" beeps.) >> So in this instance, defaulting `visible-bell' to "on" would make `C-g' >> more intrusive/obnoxious than previously... which is the opposite >> effect than what was originally discussed in this bug report. > > Can anything be done about that, though? I think this might point toward not doing anything about the default -- people who don't like beeps will switch them off on the OS level. That is, flipping the default will make `C-g' more intrusive for people who've already made a decision to ignore beeps. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 13:07:43 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 09:07:43 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42463 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXkfn-0007jf-Es for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:07:43 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-f171.google.com ([209.85.214.171]:36499) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lXkfm-0007jS-1e for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 09:07:42 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-f171.google.com with SMTP id z22so10248129plo.3 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 06:07:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hHi2BFq35xb/ZjY/YTHmJqOLj0urQ+2EQt4gy3prr9s=; b=r5WSpZbfnnTj88UunMMO/+4qVf+Xq5s+2qUBCLNlNnpHfzI0IFCvrxp9SSOjm3+bG0 okhDTSFgbNQ8cc+nPZt4uHhix0OisN2KOdzeWlHKvOBg/OVhREQiJcDo1LbspuPIX6bt /vAcWp1d0pmnGSKvqMSB9NkNs6XrmUXlfQICrUthPnjFyUKVG7ZqU+v5i1qnXQbzTvZJ dX8F/X5cU9cTEJtuvMMCxQ39WiOvIJG7nAi7+EXSneNQmJa69ctwgVVitX/pwXs++2Wz ZMvi9ABx/l25jdHlptRtcPfupjkigdkv8Sr27yVmMxMdfFyTru7ER5iOnZt232GDDjV9 hvMw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531TxRn9MswsMbB50HvKwm6Snt9yUGNqeBDSO4HDLx+S5dKFP0EH VuuOYtD0Yl03kD3CAnRXnH2COQ6RdKr3hHjx8JY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyEt7POuxYXF12r8RYt/QmCkxP5ie8WNpUdv30RDLlAyzS5r/WqNCP1fYNn8tB7pzQn58kdvpB6GUbf2okRyBg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4085:: with SMTP id l5mr15026161pjg.104.1618664856286; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 06:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:07:35 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:07:35 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkmkE-Aq9W1EKFrvL=2GrFuKvLBKT_RvYq3-kQD8hbGErnA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > However, I just noticed that an "emacs -Q" doesn't beep at all on this > machine -- because I've switched off all "alert" beeps in the OS > interface. So `C-g' just says "Quit" in the echo area, and nothing > else. What machine is that? > So in this instance, defaulting `visible-bell' to "on" would make `C-g' > more intrusive/obnoxious than previously... which is the opposite > effect than what was originally discussed in this bug report. Can anything be done about that, though? (I guess to turn it off completely you would be expected to set `ring-bell-function' to #'ignore and visual-bell to nil.)
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 12:55:23 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 08:55:23 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42459 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXkTq-0007Qp-V0 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:55:23 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:49368) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lXkTp-0007QZ-81 for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:55:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=FUXq7jl2kj9PZ39H7jR0uPSJeLaWq8aLiX7fKfyionw=; b=EykselXvli1trzxsFLsQiOOmOw 2zFW/tzJwicUd4ZiXfSktnAfrqR8BDLeviaIkV/Vefd/e8GyMzGbPFP/cw2rVW8ZklFbSYlAaPbBf 15Rt9ep9YAvoRx9XAAkiKJiL4HpIC3UF27nHexeq52m7PxYLQK2OaJ2GYuDQ4WgbGpYs=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lXkTY-0003Iz-GB; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:55:06 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAG1BMVEWtp5nl3ci0rqPN vq+alYyRf2dbUFETCgz///+G0CkAAAAAAWJLR0QIht6VegAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEQwxNQ6MjF4AAAFc SURBVDjLldTdboMgFAdwykx67Zrd02Oz3baebrvtBcYH8OveVniBTl5/gCJKNNn+iTHyywH5ULKL 10OOf4YDmmg4UDBhxIXrlDHZHQhdtFu5GaABRBMEBXNgQU+cu8FDuG3BVAFBOx/HqGyKdJhQ5KEW NuOtm+DUC9mrnpeNMvmZgAkhhWzxU9/7WgQgksR2FVQIecezaZchiBQxZTyTqnssoAW7D9h0VbcA SEwzwVrUzzk8UgN71eZSPE8DgAVIri+oVL/X16ICk7xI9ezyEAjmxaVR/UcIlQbU0Dg4zkHatfIA erYa7huwv1/FHGILPYf34kstACyAnvr3GhANb1uQrgLVi9WsjsEysVZhtk6NrxtNkFUuJedZ6QER fNyBi8dHG+YOqQcrw/E2cPEAlFlgQVdAGB0/0iioAPeVLrtihLoSV5EMJw3PzFdkBtzf5BX8+0UG Nv4l/4ZfnCnXdaRaFEoAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMDQtMTdUMTI6NDk6NTIrMDA6 MDDmYy/eAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTA0LTE3VDEyOjQ5OjUyKzAwOjAwlz6XYgAA AABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Blaine L. Reininger's _Live in Brussels_: "track" Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 14:55:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:39:54 +0300") Message-ID: <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> IMO, the default behavior on GNU/Linux (inverting video on the first and >> last line of the frame) is horrible (but perhaps less so than an actual >> bell), Hm... when I try this on Debian/bullseye, it inverts the video on the two first lines in the frame. But I seem to recall it working the way you describe, so perhaps there's differences between various [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> IMO, the default behavior on GNU/Linux (inverting video on the first and >> last line of the frame) is horrible (but perhaps less so than an actual >> bell), Hm... when I try this on Debian/bullseye, it inverts the video on the two first lines in the frame. But I seem to recall it working the way you describe, so perhaps there's differences between various toolkits/libraries used by Emacs in this area? >> and the default behavior on macOS is too intrusive (but again >> perhaps less so than an actual bell). > > On MS-Windows, we use a system API that flashes the caption bar of the > selected-frame's window. Then it sounds like visible-bell should be visible enough on all the three major systems we support. However, I just noticed that an "emacs -Q" doesn't beep at all on this machine -- because I've switched off all "alert" beeps in the OS interface. So `C-g' just says "Quit" in the echo area, and nothing else. So in this instance, defaulting `visible-bell' to "on" would make `C-g' more intrusive/obnoxious than previously... which is the opposite effect than what was originally discussed in this bug report. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 12:40:12 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 08:40:12 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42447 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXkFA-00073N-6v for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:40:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37116) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lXkF8-00072z-9A for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:40:10 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:32791) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lXkF0-0004s3-Vd; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:40:04 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1595 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lXkEz-0001GC-D9; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:40:01 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 15:39:54 +0300 Message-Id: <83bladw0dh.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> (message from Gregory Heytings on Sat, 17 Apr 2021 12:31:27 +0000) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 12:31:27 +0000 > From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> > Cc: jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > > IMO, the default behavior on GNU/Linux (inverting video on the first and > last line of the frame) is horrible (but perhaps less so than an actual > bell), and the default behavior on macOS is too intrusive (but again > perhaps less so than an actual bell). On MS-Windows, we use a system API that flashes the caption bar of the selected-frame's window.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 12:31:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 08:31:30 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42442 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXk6k-0006nO-FU for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:31:30 -0400 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:41630) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1lXk6i-0006nE-LW for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 08:31:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618662687; bh=SSoN4+wugAHomlLsmlda8QQ0bhlEAgMLuculjHCtAmg=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=ebgHLZDaS1cHDRtBYS05Fq/cA7KOs2vk7UyG1mlep7f8Rb0Z5jY/wXNPTHyVLW3w2 7VjOSj1jXVlOit5LLRVRf0RbFP/AKC1w2kd7I9Kqceswuch9tqUF8OWiz4KL4Cop/K NbTehEbGw85I3epm/oYpvZtkDdRvnM3N78PWMSsB3WFcrX5KlBK9+WHPTMQzeWpdJX I41yo8aKsI29QDZlYRSVaBfp9w84vd9o6Zh07/expNWyXj7HlOd7M5EYNXS1v1SF6a Bo8p0S06rF2JqyyjeTCF/N2mNyE7DUvYalOYpQ+tqjwxBj9AVqcZtEJ6r4Dd10CcbT seL6l+18ToqPA== Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 12:31:27 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead In-Reply-To: <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <1869622e162377be79e9@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="QWO3ShMulH" X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> --QWO3ShMulH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >> So how about setting visible-bell to t by default in Emacs 28? This >> behavior was called "barbaric" by Chong Yidong in 2008, and the >> situation hasn't improved since. > > I think that sounds like a good idea, but does visible-bell look nice on > all systems, or are there major differences? > I attach two screenshots, one on Debian GNU/Linux, the other one on macOS. IMO, the default behavior on GNU/Linux (inverting video on the first and last line of the frame) is horrible (but perhaps less so than an actual bell), and the default behavior on macOS is too intrusive (but again perhaps less so than an actual bell). Perhaps a nicer way to do this is possible, e.g. make the background of the minibuffer (which is what the user is invited to look at) yellow or red (unless it's already yellow or red). --QWO3ShMulH Content-Type: image/png; name=debian.png Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <1869622e16b16d46d12b@HIDDEN> Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=debian.png iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAABXAAAAUhCAIAAACtPzurAACAAElEQVR42uzd d5wTZeLH8Sd1e++NZRu9NxEUBcGKiL2ep55nPfvZUU/EXtGfveupZ0UFKx0B 6b2zBbZ3tmY3beb3x0CMu8uSSduAn7e+NDuZJM/zZJ4p38w8ozG1tggAAAAA AAA1tD1dAAAAAAAAcPQhUAAAAAAAAKoRKAAAAAAAANUIFAAAAAAAgGoECgAA AAAAQDUCBQAAAAAAoBqBAgAAAAAAUM07gcIn//ti7EmTTpx82hEnHnVuufPf Y0+adM+DDx17VVPlL1hl7yooKnp45qyp5184ftKUsSdNGnvSJLvdrjxVXlEx 66lnpl90yQmnnKo8VV1T09PlPcoE8vIZyGWDi/gSO6NNAACAEELf/dPzFy56 aOasbmYwGAy/Lfilp2uhosCKH+Z8FRcb29OFdVVFZeVPv8xftXZteXlFY1Nj aEhofHz8yOHDpkyaOHjQwJ4u3dGqy0VFq9WEhoSmpqaOHD703GnTemWke+Wz 8gsKr73p5vZ2c+enKquqrr7uxsampp5uD9UaGhtPn3auqpdccO70f99+a08X 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bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 11:54:28 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 07:54:27 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42414 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXjWt-0005mM-Lb for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 07:54:27 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:48876) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lXjWr-0005mA-SL for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 07:54:26 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=HFXdFy04vuIC8mulfcxdxjyTQ8NwvlfDVAFKBG1orkY=; b=ua0VmIEp6+VR0/xr1x3MsiK4xN COKLfQh709m13MxYi2VWXVV99DML6OkesXnn8FUyF4k3La/W7zfK7CHRLYfSQYqq8GZgtPhb4pAzM UeBQMIfrS7A9A5FIetnu6atsWdPxbE729arWEGjWFU1h2IJVoYZoF2vgRNpqHjTPX3tM=; Received: from cm-84.212.220.105.getinternet.no ([84.212.220.105] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1lXjWY-0002tH-Mx; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:54:18 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEXjza7QuqCogWD/ //+BhT4TAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+UEEQsrM1KNxTUAAAGoSURBVCjPLVFNi9swEB0t 9kJvCcSB7LmU9l/IsAm0Jwn0RO1bIQm1f8eS8zZUhua0Kbax5ld2pO2A7XnWvA9JRHuqCkWPRhlH eKZV8aGiKpiCXFXWzkDVAZqg96pU2ihQRQ2l0vKoE61Tr/LLkk1/qwy8KJMI5NmGQELPvRKfQj4Z iV5TpOaBmeuJhrXOIJ5rR77OMxVtZCyUrwkUmfMH4b3PAnCkTHYFbesfh1dTSrwHAXBl78qkGCg8 fa/6YJE5QFf2k0HqyOJs+2iM2EhQzOi5hlYyajyHnltgb2Tj236SlEBdg1rfJjC4lbpT5zkVIqnu HbR8WJKPH2bmR74ctfpJCFMCg8SNku2t50u8CifQo1jy3/EaNQWqTi334/gpajURTrj55bhd0tiu w22Inw+LE+kvDQaOnVqMrDSo2lv8qkYjHGtw4/mbnbTcAoxreb4YAWmzo+fh+vKWQRMVhunlrtVA eOLS+tF5XQfCmW98Xo61Vr9oB56DX/7fHOQwpJ5XctYB0dtm4HbuQEXl7R2DP7W/11QCuwiPI/SG XDAfsXNkrd78A4oupznw7ZKaAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTA0LTE3VDExOjQzOjUx KzAwOjAwfWPJRAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0wNC0xN1QxMTo0Mzo1MSswMDowMAw+ cfgAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Yukihiro Takahashi's _Neuromantic_: "Extra-Ordinary" Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 13:54:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> (Stefan Kangas's message of "Sat, 17 Apr 2021 01:06:54 -0500") Message-ID: <87eef9qg81.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > So how about setting visible-bell to t by default in Emacs 28? This > behavior was called "barbaric" by Chong Yidong in 2008, and the > situation hasn't improved since. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes: > So how about setting visible-bell to t by default in Emacs 28? This > behavior was called "barbaric" by Chong Yidong in 2008, and the > situation hasn't improved since. I think that sounds like a good idea, but does visible-bell look nice on all systems, or are there major differences? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 07:04:01 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 03:04:01 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42171 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXezm-0004kD-38 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 03:04:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49282) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lXezi-0004jx-0F for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 03:03:57 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:58402) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lXezc-0000Xu-Jy; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 03:03:48 -0400 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4602 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1lXeza-0003l6-RI; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 03:03:48 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 10:03:43 +0300 Message-Id: <83lf9hwfxs.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Kangas on Sat, 17 Apr 2021 01:06:54 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN, drew.adams@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) > From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 01:06:54 -0500 > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, > jasonspiro4@HIDDEN > > Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > > So how about setting visible-bell to t by default in Emacs 28? What does visible-bell do on your system? is it prominently visible?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Apr 2021 06:07:10 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Apr 17 02:07:09 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42089 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1lXe6k-0003O1-1h for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 02:07:09 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-f182.google.com ([209.85.210.182]:42719) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <stefankangas@HIDDEN>) id 1lXe6e-0003NU-3b for 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 02:07:04 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-f182.google.com with SMTP id w8so16265039pfn.9 for <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 23:07:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:user-agent :mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TlgigBn1yB1H871I39NOISms2N9e8dUzjwIJFcXzBmE=; b=cHwkEqJ7LJwUfEZ6OBfh4pwuZ4PiSSW9zXfd51ivzmh7uO6odobU/8h/H6I4ewpc0K 1p08zxxJLp2X7BXdOPX6XPYr4EVhaz2r7cmyy8tqGdFP4egen+jk+KrSfooPgO5Hnn0h J8hm6zJRtoghFQQbKIBmYwvkWZTr6pu8F+3O+4mRCYIz9JjM+J2bxHJYjx01tC86/Zvm T/64Dh4Cb4Q/mcHdHF0JtXyTNdrUhipCTTwVc34RZf682txM7PUq9s3vQH/BDbtffuJd Y8/lNm7ZInYVd5BHbAjFjz/Trh0xruXCJgOXwCHOyLH7II/prue6cczotQ3Tniscq9uy lEIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530kGFML3LOUcifxqfTiHECck9OPMgbz7WEI/lix1t4clI8bk0O1 0WvTRRdZ/R9+2xY2fdrfChWD71mzHIQovTRvapo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxwWaXZKaIplEPyIPp+bhfaAn3y1nU5Vs1rGZ5MnjRaS2yrf5xQyLW5qgdXyvx4y8a3JX5JMhdqnnUDSG60d7Y= X-Received: by 2002:a63:942:: with SMTP id 63mr2333352pgj.67.1618639614569; Fri, 16 Apr 2021 23:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 17 Apr 2021 01:06:54 -0500 From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:07:29 -0500") References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2021 01:06:54 -0500 Message-ID: <CADwFkm=jcroPQYyr=4HTPdDEFK250sJqFQ4eJpGi+QBvGJKtGg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 1305 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: >> No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the visible bell the >> default. To turn it off, you turn off visible-bell, which makes Emacs >> beep again, and then turn off the speakers. > > Indeed. A good reason to use visible-bell by default is that we have no > guarantee that the bell can actually be heard (e.g. I usually turn it > off because I usually consider that a computer should be as close to > silent as possible, except when I specifically ask otherwise (.e.g > listing to music or whatching a video)). > > The other reason is that the beep can annoy other people than the user, > whereas the visible-bell is very unlikely to annoy other people than the > user herself. (That was 12 years ago.) So how about setting visible-bell to t by default in Emacs 28? This behavior was called "barbaric" by Chong Yidong in 2008, and the situation hasn't improved since.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:25:59 +0100
Message-ID: <e01d8a50911271225n496768ebu73d086348d19da65@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: Beeping
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>, Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= <per@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Giuseppe Scrivano <gscrivano@HIDDEN>,
emacs-devel@HIDDEN
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2009/11/27 Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:
>> As an example of what I mean look at what windmove-left does when
>> there is no window to the left. It then raises an error.
>> If debug-on-error is true I then get a chance to debug my behaviour. I
>> am not sure that makes sense.
>
> That's a problem between windmove and debug-ignored-errors.
> BTW, I'd welcome a patch that introduces a new error `user-error' and
> then changes calls to `error' where the error message is in
> debug-ignored-errors to signal `user-error' instead.
You mean that debug-ignored-errors should just be '(user-error)?
Isn't there still a problem with condition-case then? Or perhaps it
could be tamed to pass on user-error?
>> The behaviour is different, but I think it should be similar to what
>> scroll-down/up does when it reaches the border. I think there should
>> be a unified behaviour. Making the visual bell default seems good, but
>> why not implement it as `command-level'?
>
> That's already what "an error that's in debug-ignored-errors" does.
>
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stefan
>
Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>, Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN>,
Per =?iso-8859-1?Q?Starb=E4ck?= <per@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Giuseppe Scrivano <gscrivano@HIDDEN>,
emacs-devel@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: Beeping
Message-ID: <jwvtywfg4bl.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@HIDDEN>
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Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:25:05 -0500
In-Reply-To: <e01d8a50911262248i10e60401q1b3c31d748aae310@HIDDEN>
(Lennart Borgman's message of "Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:48:07 +0100")
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> As an example of what I mean look at what windmove-left does when
> there is no window to the left. It then raises an error.
> If debug-on-error is true I then get a chance to debug my behaviour. I
> am not sure that makes sense.
That's a problem between windmove and debug-ignored-errors.
BTW, I'd welcome a patch that introduces a new error `user-error' and
then changes calls to `error' where the error message is in
debug-ignored-errors to signal `user-error' instead.
> The behaviour is different, but I think it should be similar to what
> scroll-down/up does when it reaches the border. I think there should
> be a unified behaviour. Making the visual bell default seems good, but
> why not implement it as `command-level'?
That's already what "an error that's in debug-ignored-errors" does.
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 07:48:07 +0100
Message-ID: <e01d8a50911262248i10e60401q1b3c31d748aae310@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: Beeping
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>, Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= <per@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Giuseppe Scrivano <gscrivano@HIDDEN>,
emacs-devel@HIDDEN
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2009/11/27 Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:
>> Maybe the problem is a bit different. There is currently no dedicated
>> mechanism in Emacs to go to command level. Instead a lot of functions
>> throws an error when they want to go to command level.
>
>> Could we not implement something like (command-level) akin to (top-level=
)?
>
> I think there's a misunderstanding here. =C2=A0Emacs usually tries to mak=
e
> sure commands do *something*, because it' good to return feedback.
> So when they don't, they often like to beep to indicate that they
> couldn't do what they were asked to do.
As an example of what I mean look at what windmove-left does when
there is no window to the left. It then raises an error.
If debug-on-error is true I then get a chance to debug my behaviour. I
am not sure that makes sense.
The behaviour is different, but I think it should be similar to what
scroll-down/up does when it reaches the border. I think there should
be a unified behaviour. Making the visual bell default seems good, but
why not implement it as `command-level'?
> I dislike the beep, so I always use the visual-bell instead. =C2=A0I don'=
t
> think turning the bell into nothing at all is a good option. =C2=A0I'd ra=
ther
> try and address the reasons that prevent the visual-bell from being
> the default.
>
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stefan
>
Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>, Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN>,
Per =?iso-8859-1?Q?Starb=E4ck?= <per@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Giuseppe Scrivano <gscrivano@HIDDEN>,
emacs-devel@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: Beeping
Message-ID: <jwveinksj72.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@HIDDEN>
<87y6lxdvnl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87zl6dgjt1.fsf@HIDDEN> <874oolarvt.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 23:12:55 -0500
In-Reply-To: <e01d8a50911261512u7c75059aub77c87198396cab2@HIDDEN>
(Lennart Borgman's message of "Fri, 27 Nov 2009 00:12:49 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1.50 (gnu/linux)
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> Maybe the problem is a bit different. There is currently no dedicated
> mechanism in Emacs to go to command level. Instead a lot of functions
> throws an error when they want to go to command level.
> Could we not implement something like (command-level) akin to (top-level)?
I think there's a misunderstanding here. Emacs usually tries to make
sure commands do *something*, because it' good to return feedback.
So when they don't, they often like to beep to indicate that they
couldn't do what they were asked to do.
I dislike the beep, so I always use the visual-bell instead. I don't
think turning the bell into nothing at all is a good option. I'd rather
try and address the reasons that prevent the visual-bell from being
the default.
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@HIDDEN>
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<874oolarvt.fsf@HIDDEN> <87aay91k9j.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 00:12:49 +0100
Message-ID: <e01d8a50911261512u7c75059aub77c87198396cab2@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: Beeping (was: Emacs for new users)
To: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
Cc: Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN>,
=?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= <per@HIDDEN>, emacs-devel@HIDDEN,
Giuseppe Scrivano <gscrivano@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 11:35 PM, Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>> The problem is that we have no mechanism for telling Emacs not to ring
>> the bell for certain classes of errors.
>
> I suggest to implement this mechanism by adding a new symbol property,
> e.g. `error-bell' by analogy with properties `error-message' and
> `error-conditions', with possible values t, nil and `visible'.
>
> And to put this property with the value nil on `beginning-of-buffer',
> `end-of-buffer' and `keyboard-quit' - most annoying beeping commands.
Maybe the problem is a bit different. There is currently no dedicated
mechanism in Emacs to go to command level. Instead a lot of functions
throws an error when they want to go to command level.
Could we not implement something like (command-level) akin to (top-level)?
Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
To: Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN>
Cc: Giuseppe Scrivano <gscrivano@HIDDEN>,
Per =?iso-8859-1?Q?Starb=E4ck?=
<per@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@HIDDEN
Subject: Beeping (was: Emacs for new users)
Organization: JURTA
References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@HIDDEN>
<87y6lxdvnl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87zl6dgjt1.fsf@HIDDEN> <874oolarvt.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 00:35:27 +0200
In-Reply-To: <874oolarvt.fsf@HIDDEN> (Chong Yidong's message of
"Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:49:26 -0500")
Message-ID: <87aay91k9j.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
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>>>> * beeping is often disturbing and unexpected, in particular for
>>>> scrolling past the beginning or end of the
>>>> buffer with the scroll wheel. (I agree. That's hardly an error.)
>>>
>>> yes, I agree with you, beeping is often disturbing. You can disable it,
>>> changing the value of visible-bell to t:
>
>> This is bug#1305. That discussion never came to a conclusion.
>
> One complication, now that I recall, is that we really do want to signal
> an error for beginning-of-buffer and end-of-buffer, so that keyboard
> macros will terminate.
>
> The problem is that we have no mechanism for telling Emacs not to ring
> the bell for certain classes of errors.
I suggest to implement this mechanism by adding a new symbol property,
e.g. `error-bell' by analogy with properties `error-message' and
`error-conditions', with possible values t, nil and `visible'.
And to put this property with the value nil on `beginning-of-buffer',
`end-of-buffer' and `keyboard-quit' - most annoying beeping commands.
> But I'm not sure Emacs should even be in the bell-ringing business,
> anyway; it's a barbaric practice, and an echo-area message IMHO
> suffices.
Yes, this practice comes from ancient times of beeping keyboards :-)
--
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/
Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN>
To: Giuseppe Scrivano <gscrivano@HIDDEN>
Cc: Per =?utf-8?Q?Starb=C3=A4ck?= <per@HIDDEN>, emacs-devel@HIDDEN,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs for new users
References: <912155b0911230837i48326730m82e0d54d4004be59@HIDDEN>
<87y6lxdvnl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87zl6dgjt1.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:49:26 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87zl6dgjt1.fsf@HIDDEN> (Chong Yidong's message of
"Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:47:22 -0500")
Message-ID: <874oolarvt.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN> writes:
>>> * beeping is often disturbing and unexpected, in particular for
>>> scrolling past the beginning or end of the
>>> buffer with the scroll wheel. (I agree. That's hardly an error.)
>>
>> yes, I agree with you, beeping is often disturbing. You can disable it,
>> changing the value of visible-bell to t:
> This is bug#1305. That discussion never came to a conclusion.
One complication, now that I recall, is that we really do want to signal
an error for beginning-of-buffer and end-of-buffer, so that keyboard
macros will terminate.
The problem is that we have no mechanism for telling Emacs not to ring
the bell for certain classes of errors.
But I'm not sure Emacs should even be in the bell-ringing business,
anyway; it's a barbaric practice, and an echo-area message IMHO
suffices.
Chong Yidong <cyd@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
to control@HIDDEN.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Cc: "Tim Connors" <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN>, rms@HIDDEN,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Message-ID: <jwvvdumv23d.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0811171819560.21312@HIDDEN>
<c241693f0811162337rbc6295dp8637fa0afe4ce038@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:52:25 -0500
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(Jason Spiro's message of "Mon, 17 Nov 2008 02:37:59 -0500")
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> Firefox's incremental search feature does it much better than Emacs.
> When an incremental search is failing, it doesn't just add the word
> "Failing" onscreen. It also changes the search text entry field to
> have a bright red background. This attracts the eye to see that the
> search is failing. Should I file a bug to request that Emacs do the
> same?
I don't think it addresses Tim's problem that he simply doesn't see
(aka. look at) the echo area at all.
The bell is more noticeable (both the visual and the auditory one).
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Cc: "Tim Connors" <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN>, rms@HIDDEN,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Message-ID: <jwvvdumv23d.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0811171819560.21312@HIDDEN>
<c241693f0811162337rbc6295dp8637fa0afe4ce038@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:52:25 -0500
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(Jason Spiro's message of "Mon, 17 Nov 2008 02:37:59 -0500")
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> Firefox's incremental search feature does it much better than Emacs.
> When an incremental search is failing, it doesn't just add the word
> "Failing" onscreen. It also changes the search text entry field to
> have a bright red background. This attracts the eye to see that the
> search is failing. Should I file a bug to request that Emacs do the
> same?
I don't think it addresses Tim's problem that he simply doesn't see
(aka. look at) the echo area at all.
The bell is more noticeable (both the visual and the auditory one).
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: "'Sven Joachim'" <svenjoac@HIDDEN>, <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>,
"'Jason Spiro'" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
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Subject: RE: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visualbellinstead
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 00:19:10 -0800
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> > Firefox's incremental search feature does it much better than Emacs.
> > When an incremental search is failing, it doesn't just add the word
> > "Failing" onscreen. It also changes the search text entry field to
> > have a bright red background. This attracts the eye to see that the
> > search is failing. Should I file a bug to request that Emacs do the
> > same?
>
> Emacs does it another way, one that in my opinion is even better: it
> highlights just the part of the search that failed. This is quite
> convenient if you have already typed several extra characters before
> noticing the search failure.
>
> Note that this is not available in Emacs 22, but has been in the trunk
> for about a year.
It's not only better in general, it's more appropriate for incremental search.
The increment of your search that is successful (matches) is not highlighted;
only the increment that is a mismatch is highlighted. The highlighting is added
and removed incrementally, as you type and delete characters.
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Sven Joachim <svenjoac@HIDDEN>
To: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, "Tim Connors" <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN>,
rms@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0811171819560.21312@HIDDEN>
<c241693f0811162337rbc6295dp8637fa0afe4ce038@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:01:16 +0100
In-Reply-To: <c241693f0811162337rbc6295dp8637fa0afe4ce038@HIDDEN>
(Jason Spiro's message of "Mon, 17 Nov 2008 02:37:59 -0500")
Message-ID: <8763mmsrw3.fsf@HIDDEN>
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On 2008-11-17 08:37 +0100, Jason Spiro wrote:
> 2008/11/17 Tim Connors <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN> wrote:
>> [...]
>> [...] I've lost count of the number of times I've
>> gone more than once around a buffer doing an isearch, because I failed to
>> hear the non-existant beep telling me I had already gone around once. A
>> simple visual notification in the status area is not enough, because
>> almost by definition the entire screen is changing every isearch anyway,
>> so a few extra words saying "failing i-search" doesn't get noticed.
>
> Firefox's incremental search feature does it much better than Emacs.
> When an incremental search is failing, it doesn't just add the word
> "Failing" onscreen. It also changes the search text entry field to
> have a bright red background. This attracts the eye to see that the
> search is failing. Should I file a bug to request that Emacs do the
> same?
Emacs does it another way, one that in my opinion is even better: it
highlights just the part of the search that failed. This is quite
convenient if you have already typed several extra characters before
noticing the search failure.
Note that this is not available in Emacs 22, but has been in the trunk
for about a year.
Sven
Sven Joachim <svenjoac@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 02:37:59 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Sender: jasonspiro@HIDDEN
To: "Tim Connors" <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: rms@HIDDEN, "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
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2008/11/17 Tim Connors <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN> wrote:
> [...]
> [...] I've lost count of the number of times I've
> gone more than once around a buffer doing an isearch, because I failed to
> hear the non-existant beep telling me I had already gone around once. A
> simple visual notification in the status area is not enough, because
> almost by definition the entire screen is changing every isearch anyway,
> so a few extra words saying "failing i-search" doesn't get noticed.
Firefox's incremental search feature does it much better than Emacs.
When an incremental search is failing, it doesn't just add the word
"Failing" onscreen. It also changes the search text entry field to
have a bright red background. This attracts the eye to see that the
search is failing. Should I file a bug to request that Emacs do the
same?
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 02:37:59 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Sender: jasonspiro@HIDDEN
To: "Tim Connors" <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: rms@HIDDEN, "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
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2008/11/17 Tim Connors <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN> wrote:
> [...]
> [...] I've lost count of the number of times I've
> gone more than once around a buffer doing an isearch, because I failed to
> hear the non-existant beep telling me I had already gone around once. A
> simple visual notification in the status area is not enough, because
> almost by definition the entire screen is changing every isearch anyway,
> so a few extra words saying "failing i-search" doesn't get noticed.
Firefox's incremental search feature does it much better than Emacs.
When an incremental search is failing, it doesn't just add the word
"Failing" onscreen. It also changes the search text entry field to
have a bright red background. This attracts the eye to see that the
search is failing. Should I file a bug to request that Emacs do the
same?
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:32:38 +1100 (EST)
From: Tim Connors <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN>
Sender: tconnors@HIDDEN
To: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
cc: rms@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual
bellinstead
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"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> wrote:
> 2008/11/10 Richard M. Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> wrote:
>> For changes like this, you should poll the users, with a poll
>> announced at least on info-gnu-emacs and help-gnu-emacs.
>>
>> To get the most useful information in return, it is important to ask
>> them to state the reasons for their preference, rather than simply to
>> "vote".
>
> We should poll for which change? Surely removing beeping from the
> trivial things like:
>
> * quit (C-g), and
> * moving the point off the end of the buffer, and
> * failing isearches
>
> should not require a poll.
See, I very much disagree that at least one of these is a "trivial" use,
which demonstrates that deciding not to ask for a poll because *you* think
something is obviously the case is a flawed proposition.
For the first year of the life of this laptop, the sound driver didn't
output beeps at all, which made editing in emacs very much more painful
(the latest ALSA release restores beeps for this chipset, yay).
I find visible-bell *way* too distracting, so use beeps (I can turn it
down and control its pitch, but I can't make reverse video any less of a
shock to the eyesight). And I've lost count of the number of times I've
gone more than once around a buffer doing an isearch, because I failed to
hear the non-existant beep telling me I had already gone around once. A
simple visual notification in the status area is not enough, because
almost by definition the entire screen is changing every isearch anyway,
so a few extra words saying "failing i-search" doesn't get noticed.
--
TimC
cat /kat/ n. A furry keyboard cover
Tim Connors <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:32:38 +1100 (EST)
From: Tim Connors <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN>
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To: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
cc: rms@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual
bellinstead
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"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> wrote:
> 2008/11/10 Richard M. Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> wrote:
>> For changes like this, you should poll the users, with a poll
>> announced at least on info-gnu-emacs and help-gnu-emacs.
>>
>> To get the most useful information in return, it is important to ask
>> them to state the reasons for their preference, rather than simply to
>> "vote".
>
> We should poll for which change? Surely removing beeping from the
> trivial things like:
>
> * quit (C-g), and
> * moving the point off the end of the buffer, and
> * failing isearches
>
> should not require a poll.
See, I very much disagree that at least one of these is a "trivial" use,
which demonstrates that deciding not to ask for a poll because *you* think
something is obviously the case is a flawed proposition.
For the first year of the life of this laptop, the sound driver didn't
output beeps at all, which made editing in emacs very much more painful
(the latest ALSA release restores beeps for this chipset, yay).
I find visible-bell *way* too distracting, so use beeps (I can turn it
down and control its pitch, but I can't make reverse video any less of a
shock to the eyesight). And I've lost count of the number of times I've
gone more than once around a buffer doing an isearch, because I failed to
hear the non-existant beep telling me I had already gone around once. A
simple visual notification in the status area is not enough, because
almost by definition the entire screen is changing every isearch anyway,
so a few extra words saying "failing i-search" doesn't get noticed.
--
TimC
cat /kat/ n. A furry keyboard cover
Tim Connors <tim.w.connors@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:41:29 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Sender: jasonspiro@HIDDEN
To: rms@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: monnier@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
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2008/11/11 Richard M. Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > ...
> Sure it should. You think it is an improvement, but I think the
> opposite. Let's see what the users think.
Fair.
> > ...
> There may be a misunderstanding here. Polls do not use this list. We
> create a special address for people to send their responses to, and
> that address dumps everything into a file.
>
> When the deadline comes, someone reads all the responses and analyzes
> them.
Ah. I stand corrected.
> > ...
> I think that is asking for trouble, as people may flame at each other
> and may edit each other's text.
Yes, there could be flaming. And yes, editing each other's text is a
danger. But the wiki's "history" command reduces this latter danger:
people can detect such tampering.
Still, rms, you have convinced me: an email poll is better. Dear
everybody: Who will start the poll?
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 02:41:29 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Sender: jasonspiro@HIDDEN
To: rms@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: monnier@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
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2008/11/11 Richard M. Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > ...
> Sure it should. You think it is an improvement, but I think the
> opposite. Let's see what the users think.
Fair.
> > ...
> There may be a misunderstanding here. Polls do not use this list. We
> create a special address for people to send their responses to, and
> that address dumps everything into a file.
>
> When the deadline comes, someone reads all the responses and analyzes
> them.
Ah. I stand corrected.
> > ...
> I think that is asking for trouble, as people may flame at each other
> and may edit each other's text.
Yes, there could be flaming. And yes, editing each other's text is a
danger. But the wiki's "history" command reduces this latter danger:
people can detect such tampering.
Still, rms, you have convinced me: an email poll is better. Dear
everybody: Who will start the poll?
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: "Richard M. Stallman" <rms@HIDDEN>
To: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
CC: monnier@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
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(jasonspiro4@HIDDEN)
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Reply-to: rms@HIDDEN
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:33:53 -0500
We should poll for which change? Surely removing beeping from the
trivial things like:
* quit (C-g), and
* moving the point off the end of the buffer, and
* failing isearches
should not require a poll.
Sure it should. You think it is an improvement, but I think the
opposite. Let's see what the users think.
Also, I think email polls are imperfect, since they drastically
increase list traffic.
There may be a misunderstanding here. Polls do not use this list. We
create a special address for people to send their responses to, and
that address dumps everything into a file.
When the deadline comes, someone reads all the responses and analyzes
them.
IMO a better alternative is to create a page
on EmacsWiki and to ask people to add their Support or Oppose votes,
with explanations, to a new paragraph at the bottom of the page,
I think that is asking for trouble, as people may flame at each other
and may edit each other's text.
rms@HIDDEN:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: "Richard M. Stallman" <rms@HIDDEN>
To: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
CC: monnier@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
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In-reply-to: <c241693f0811111050t76d28834ga5c72e1759e8900d@HIDDEN>
(jasonspiro4@HIDDEN)
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Reply-to: rms@HIDDEN
References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
<009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN>
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<jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
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We should poll for which change? Surely removing beeping from the
trivial things like:
* quit (C-g), and
* moving the point off the end of the buffer, and
* failing isearches
should not require a poll.
Sure it should. You think it is an improvement, but I think the
opposite. Let's see what the users think.
Also, I think email polls are imperfect, since they drastically
increase list traffic.
There may be a misunderstanding here. Polls do not use this list. We
create a special address for people to send their responses to, and
that address dumps everything into a file.
When the deadline comes, someone reads all the responses and analyzes
them.
IMO a better alternative is to create a page
on EmacsWiki and to ask people to add their Support or Oppose votes,
with explanations, to a new paragraph at the bottom of the page,
I think that is asking for trouble, as people may flame at each other
and may edit each other's text.
rms@HIDDEN:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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To: <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>,
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Subject: RE: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should usevisual bellinstead
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:20:04 -0800
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> As Eli said, just get rid of gratuitous uses of the bell.
> It's likely that there are plenty. And that will leave the more
> appropriate uses, if there are any.
>
> Someone (Jason?) mentioned the bell when quitting and when an
> error is raised. Those are very common uses that could no doubt
> be eliminated. Each error should display a message anyway, and
> there is no need for a bell when you quit (C-q). Getting rid of
> even just those occurrences would take care of much of the
> annoyance.
>
> Or if you prefer, leave those occurrences in, but add an
> option or two: `bell-when-quit-flag' and `bell-when-error-flag'
> - with default values nil. Perhaps let the values be `bell',
> `visible-bell', `bell+visible-bell', and nil.
Let me draw your attention to this suggestion about having multiple ding levels:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/74539/focus=74564
There were no replies to that suggestion, but perhaps it becomes more relevant
in the current context.
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Subject: RE: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should usevisual bellinstead
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:20:04 -0800
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> As Eli said, just get rid of gratuitous uses of the bell.
> It's likely that there are plenty. And that will leave the more
> appropriate uses, if there are any.
>
> Someone (Jason?) mentioned the bell when quitting and when an
> error is raised. Those are very common uses that could no doubt
> be eliminated. Each error should display a message anyway, and
> there is no need for a bell when you quit (C-q). Getting rid of
> even just those occurrences would take care of much of the
> annoyance.
>
> Or if you prefer, leave those occurrences in, but add an
> option or two: `bell-when-quit-flag' and `bell-when-error-flag'
> - with default values nil. Perhaps let the values be `bell',
> `visible-bell', `bell+visible-bell', and nil.
Let me draw your attention to this suggestion about having multiple ding levels:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/74539/focus=74564
There were no replies to that suggestion, but perhaps it becomes more relevant
in the current context.
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:05:21 +0100
From: "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
To: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
Cc: "Xavier Maillard" <xma@HIDDEN>, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN,
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN
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On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:15 PM, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> wrote:
> This would be slightly more inconvenient for blind / VI users, but IMO
> much better for fully sighted users.
If we think so then maybe we should consider that the impaired users
already have a bigger burden.
"Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
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From: "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
To: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
Cc: "Xavier Maillard" <xma@HIDDEN>, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN,
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On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:15 PM, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> wrote:
> This would be slightly more inconvenient for blind / VI users, but IMO
> much better for fully sighted users.
If we think so then maybe we should consider that the impaired users
already have a bigger burden.
"Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:15:29 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Sender: jasonspiro@HIDDEN
To: "Xavier Maillard" <xma@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN,
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN
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2008/11/9 Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN> wrote:
> What if the screen reader is not working correctly ? The visible
> bell could be used to check that something, at least, is working.
We could make a function like M-x ring-audible-bell (but you should
choose a better name than that) that would let blind / VI (visually
impaired) users know that Emacs is working. Or we could design Emacs
so that when they launch Emacs using the command "emacspeak", then C-g
will always ring the audible bell.
This would be slightly more inconvenient for blind / VI users, but IMO
much better for fully sighted users.
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
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2008/11/9 Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN> wrote:
> What if the screen reader is not working correctly ? The visible
> bell could be used to check that something, at least, is working.
We could make a function like M-x ring-audible-bell (but you should
choose a better name than that) that would let blind / VI (visually
impaired) users know that Emacs is working. Or we could design Emacs
so that when they launch Emacs using the command "emacspeak", then C-g
will always ring the audible bell.
This would be slightly more inconvenient for blind / VI users, but IMO
much better for fully sighted users.
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:50:01 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Sender: jasonspiro@HIDDEN
To: rms@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
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2008/11/10 Richard M. Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> wrote:
> For changes like this, you should poll the users, with a poll
> announced at least on info-gnu-emacs and help-gnu-emacs.
>
> To get the most useful information in return, it is important to ask
> them to state the reasons for their preference, rather than simply to
> "vote".
We should poll for which change? Surely removing beeping from the
trivial things like:
* quit (C-g), and
* moving the point off the end of the buffer, and
* failing isearches
should not require a poll.
Also, I think email polls are imperfect, since they drastically
increase list traffic. IMO a better alternative is to create a page
on EmacsWiki and to ask people to add their Support or Oppose votes,
with explanations, to a new paragraph at the bottom of the page, or in
rebuttal to (and just below, but indented from) an existing paragraph.
Then they should sign it with their name. Kinda like
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-administrator_rollback/Poll
except that Support and Oppose votes will be interleaved with each
other.
Also, I think you should make it clear that you will not be bound by
the results, but that you will take them into consideration.
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:50:01 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Sender: jasonspiro@HIDDEN
To: rms@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz@HIDDEN,
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
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2008/11/10 Richard M. Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> wrote:
> For changes like this, you should poll the users, with a poll
> announced at least on info-gnu-emacs and help-gnu-emacs.
>
> To get the most useful information in return, it is important to ask
> them to state the reasons for their preference, rather than simply to
> "vote".
We should poll for which change? Surely removing beeping from the
trivial things like:
* quit (C-g), and
* moving the point off the end of the buffer, and
* failing isearches
should not require a poll.
Also, I think email polls are imperfect, since they drastically
increase list traffic. IMO a better alternative is to create a page
on EmacsWiki and to ask people to add their Support or Oppose votes,
with explanations, to a new paragraph at the bottom of the page, or in
rebuttal to (and just below, but indented from) an existing paragraph.
Then they should sign it with their name. Kinda like
http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-administrator_rollback/Poll
except that Support and Oppose votes will be interleaved with each
other.
Also, I think you should make it clear that you will not be bound by
the results, but that you will take them into consideration.
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:38:44 -0500
From: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro@HIDDEN>
To: "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@HIDDEN>
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References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
<009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN>
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<jwv1vxj4nf1.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
<e01d8a50811100858t461e3e6fk9f76d18085cdd7b9@HIDDEN>
2008/11/10 Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN> wrote:
> I think the best would be if visually impaired people explained the
> issue themselves. It might be different for different persons and
> environments.
They explained already, both earlier in this thread and at
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.emacspeak.general/1695 .
"Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
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From: "Richard M. Stallman" <rms@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
CC: eliz@HIDDEN, bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN,
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In-reply-to: <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> (message from
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use
visual bellinstead
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For changes like this, you should poll the users, with a poll
announced at least on info-gnu-emacs and help-gnu-emacs.
To get the most useful information in return, it is important to ask
them to state the reasons for their preference, rather than simply to
"vote".
rms@HIDDEN:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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In-reply-to: <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN> (message from
Stefan Monnier on Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:07:29 -0500)
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use
visual bellinstead
Reply-to: rms@HIDDEN
References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
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For changes like this, you should poll the users, with a poll
announced at least on info-gnu-emacs and help-gnu-emacs.
To get the most useful information in return, it is important to ask
them to state the reasons for their preference, rather than simply to
"vote".
rms@HIDDEN:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
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retitle 1305 All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead
thanks
That's way more appropriate to me.
Xavier
--
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org
Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell
instead
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retitle 1305 All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead
thanks
That's way more appropriate to me.
Xavier
--
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org
Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 17:58:34 +0100
From: "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
To: "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@HIDDEN>,
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
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References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
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On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Stefan Monnier
<monnier@HIDDEN> wrote:
>> But there has been some messages telling that having it on by default
>> is good for visually impaired people.
>
> I don't buy it. Visually impaired people have to deal with "turn visual
> effects into auditive ones" anyway, so setting visible-bell is the least
> of their problems.
I think the best would be if visually impaired people explained the
issue themselves. It might be different for different persons and
environments.
"Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@HIDDEN>,
jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
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References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:22:47 -0500
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(Lennart Borgman's message of "Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:34:10 +0100")
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> But there has been some messages telling that having it on by default
> is good for visually impaired people.
I don't buy it. Visually impaired people have to deal with "turn visual
effects into auditive ones" anyway, so setting visible-bell is the least
of their problems.
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@HIDDEN>,
jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Message-ID: <jwv1vxj4nf1.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:22:47 -0500
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(Lennart Borgman's message of "Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:34:10 +0100")
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> But there has been some messages telling that having it on by default
> is good for visually impaired people.
I don't buy it. Visually impaired people have to deal with "turn visual
effects into auditive ones" anyway, so setting visible-bell is the least
of their problems.
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:34:10 +0100
From: "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
To: "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN,
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
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On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 3:07 AM, Stefan Monnier
<monnier@HIDDEN> wrote:
>> No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the visible bell the
>> default. To turn it off, you turn off visible-bell, which makes Emacs
>> beep again, and then turn off the speakers.
>
> Indeed. A good reason to use visible-bell by default is that we have no
> guarantee that the bell can actually be heard (e.g. I usually turn it
> off because I usually consider that a computer should be as close to
> silent as possible, except when I specifically ask otherwise (.e.g
> listing to music or whatching a video)).
>
> The other reason is that the beep can annoy other people than the user,
> whereas the visible-bell is very unlikely to annoy other people than the
> user herself.
But there has been some messages telling that having it on by default
is good for visually impaired people.
"Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 09:34:10 +0100
From: "Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>
To: "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>,
1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@HIDDEN>, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN,
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On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 3:07 AM, Stefan Monnier
<monnier@HIDDEN> wrote:
>> No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the visible bell the
>> default. To turn it off, you turn off visible-bell, which makes Emacs
>> beep again, and then turn off the speakers.
>
> Indeed. A good reason to use visible-bell by default is that we have no
> guarantee that the bell can actually be heard (e.g. I usually turn it
> off because I usually consider that a computer should be as close to
> silent as possible, except when I specifically ask otherwise (.e.g
> listing to music or whatching a video)).
>
> The other reason is that the beep can annoy other people than the user,
> whereas the visible-bell is very unlikely to annoy other people than the
> user herself.
But there has been some messages telling that having it on by default
is good for visually impaired people.
"Lennart Borgman" <lennart.borgman@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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To: "'Stefan Monnier'" <monnier@HIDDEN>,
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Cc: <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>,
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Subject: RE: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:28:14 -0800
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> > No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the
> > visible bell the default. To turn it off, you turn off
> > visible-bell, which makes Emacs
> > beep again, and then turn off the speakers.
>
> Indeed. A good reason to use visible-bell by default is that
> we have no guarantee that the bell can actually be heard
Indeed not. That the bell might not be heard is no reason to use the visible
bell. That just doesn't follow. This is not about guaranteeing that the user's
attention be drawn. This is not a fire alarm.
It is typically just a minor reminder, akin to the "Wrapped" indication in
Isearch that lets you know when you've reached the end of the buffer. And a
clear message like that is typically better and sufficient.
Many, if not most, uses of the bell are probably unnecessary. That's no reason
to replace them with a visible bell. Just get rid of the ones that are
inappropriate.
> (e.g. I usually turn it off because I usually consider that a computer
> should be as close to silent as possible, except when I
> specifically ask otherwise (.e.g listing to music or whatching a video)).
I feel the same and I do the same. However, that is *not* a good reason to use
visible-bell by default. I don't want to lose silence with no distraction only
to gain silence with visible annoyance by default. That's a bad trade.
If this is about the default behavior, and it is generally agreed that such
frequent distractions serve little purpose and are annoying, then they will
remain so if they are simply moved from sound to sight. That's running in
circles around the problem, not fixing it.
> The other reason is that the beep can annoy other people than
> the user, whereas the visible-bell is very unlikely to annoy other
> people than the user herself.
As Eli said, just get rid of gratuitous uses of the bell. It's likely that there
are plenty. And that will leave the more appropriate uses, if there are any.
Someone (Jason?) mentioned the bell when quitting and when an error is raised.
Those are very common uses that could no doubt be eliminated. Each error should
display a message anyway, and there is no need for a bell when you quit (C-q).
Getting rid of even just those occurrences would take care of much of the
annoyance.
Or if you prefer, leave those occurrences in, but add an option or two:
`bell-when-quit-flag' and `bell-when-error-flag' - with default values nil.
Perhaps let the values be `bell', `visible-bell', `bell+visible-bell', and nil.
Or some such. IOW, if you really must change something, reduce the current use
of the bell and visible bell. Please do not simply substitute visible-bell for
bell. That is a poor solution to the problem of frequent bell distraction.
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Cc: <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>,
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References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN><009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN><00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <u8wrsr7ok.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:28:14 -0800
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> > No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the
> > visible bell the default. To turn it off, you turn off
> > visible-bell, which makes Emacs
> > beep again, and then turn off the speakers.
>
> Indeed. A good reason to use visible-bell by default is that
> we have no guarantee that the bell can actually be heard
Indeed not. That the bell might not be heard is no reason to use the visible
bell. That just doesn't follow. This is not about guaranteeing that the user's
attention be drawn. This is not a fire alarm.
It is typically just a minor reminder, akin to the "Wrapped" indication in
Isearch that lets you know when you've reached the end of the buffer. And a
clear message like that is typically better and sufficient.
Many, if not most, uses of the bell are probably unnecessary. That's no reason
to replace them with a visible bell. Just get rid of the ones that are
inappropriate.
> (e.g. I usually turn it off because I usually consider that a computer
> should be as close to silent as possible, except when I
> specifically ask otherwise (.e.g listing to music or whatching a video)).
I feel the same and I do the same. However, that is *not* a good reason to use
visible-bell by default. I don't want to lose silence with no distraction only
to gain silence with visible annoyance by default. That's a bad trade.
If this is about the default behavior, and it is generally agreed that such
frequent distractions serve little purpose and are annoying, then they will
remain so if they are simply moved from sound to sight. That's running in
circles around the problem, not fixing it.
> The other reason is that the beep can annoy other people than
> the user, whereas the visible-bell is very unlikely to annoy other
> people than the user herself.
As Eli said, just get rid of gratuitous uses of the bell. It's likely that there
are plenty. And that will leave the more appropriate uses, if there are any.
Someone (Jason?) mentioned the bell when quitting and when an error is raised.
Those are very common uses that could no doubt be eliminated. Each error should
display a message anyway, and there is no need for a bell when you quit (C-q).
Getting rid of even just those occurrences would take care of much of the
annoyance.
Or if you prefer, leave those occurrences in, but add an option or two:
`bell-when-quit-flag' and `bell-when-error-flag' - with default values nil.
Perhaps let the values be `bell', `visible-bell', `bell+visible-bell', and nil.
Or some such. IOW, if you really must change something, reduce the current use
of the bell and visible bell. Please do not simply substitute visible-bell for
bell. That is a poor solution to the problem of frequent bell distraction.
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>,
jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Message-ID: <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN>
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> No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the visible bell the
> default. To turn it off, you turn off visible-bell, which makes Emacs
> beep again, and then turn off the speakers.
Indeed. A good reason to use visible-bell by default is that we have no
guarantee that the bell can actually be heard (e.g. I usually turn it
off because I usually consider that a computer should be as close to
silent as possible, except when I specifically ask otherwise (.e.g
listing to music or whatching a video)).
The other reason is that the beep can annoy other people than the user,
whereas the visible-bell is very unlikely to annoy other people than the
user herself.
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>,
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
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> No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the visible bell the
> default. To turn it off, you turn off visible-bell, which makes Emacs
> beep again, and then turn off the speakers.
Indeed. A good reason to use visible-bell by default is that we have no
guarantee that the bell can actually be heard (e.g. I usually turn it
off because I usually consider that a computer should be as close to
silent as possible, except when I specifically ask otherwise (.e.g
listing to music or whatching a video)).
The other reason is that the beep can annoy other people than the user,
whereas the visible-bell is very unlikely to annoy other people than the
user herself.
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: David Reitter <david.reitter@HIDDEN>
To: Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: OT: Should the Emacs team leave beep-on-error enabled for the sake of people with vision loss?
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:34:28 -0500
References: <loom.20081106T072703-881@HIDDEN> <18706.50729.342614.890612@HIDDEN> <200811092325.mA9NP7gm004097@HIDDEN>
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On 9 Nov 2008, at 18:25, Xavier Maillard wrote:
>
> Provided it can be turned off I would leave it on by default. If my
> emacspeak doesn't come up talking it's nice to get *some* feedback
> that something is alive.
>
> Correct.
The audible bell is annoying and absolutely non-standard. It was the
first thing I turned off in my branch: having Emacs ping loudly
whenever one reached the end or beginning of the buffer when
scrolling, or when some key entered wasn't bound, was just not
acceptable, be it in the open-space office environment or at home.
Why not turn it off by default, but offer a command-line option
(besides the customization variable) to turn it on when desired? One
could even bind the (real, unconditional) bell to some key so that it
can be invoked to test things.
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From: David Reitter <david.reitter@HIDDEN>
To: Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: OT: Should the Emacs team leave beep-on-error enabled for the sake of people with vision loss?
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:34:28 -0500
References: <loom.20081106T072703-881@HIDDEN> <18706.50729.342614.890612@HIDDEN> <200811092325.mA9NP7gm004097@HIDDEN>
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On 9 Nov 2008, at 18:25, Xavier Maillard wrote:
>
> Provided it can be turned off I would leave it on by default. If my
> emacspeak doesn't come up talking it's nice to get *some* feedback
> that something is alive.
>
> Correct.
The audible bell is annoying and absolutely non-standard. It was the
first thing I turned off in my branch: having Emacs ping loudly
whenever one reached the end or beginning of the buffer when
scrolling, or when some key entered wasn't bound, was just not
acceptable, be it in the open-space office environment or at home.
Why not turn it off by default, but offer a command-line option
(besides the customization variable) to turn it on when desired? One
could even bind the (real, unconditional) bell to some key so that it
can be invoked to test things.
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:25:07 +0100
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From: Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>
To: peter.rayner@HIDDEN, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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In-reply-to: <18706.50729.342614.890612@HIDDEN> (message from
Peter Rayner on Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:25:45 +0100)
Subject: Re: bug#1305: OT: Should the Emacs team leave beep-on-error enabled for
the sake of people with vision loss?
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Provided it can be turned off I would leave it on by default. If my
emacspeak doesn't come up talking it's nice to get *some* feedback
that something is alive.
Correct.
Xavier
--
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org
Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
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Hi Xavier,
Re. users with vision loss: They need a screen reader (Emacspeak
provides that) or a magnifier utility. But why do they also need
beep-on-error?
What if the screen reader is not working correctly ? The visible
bell could be used to check that something, at least, is working.
Regards
Xavier
--
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org
Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Provided it can be turned off I would leave it on by default. If my
emacspeak doesn't come up talking it's nice to get *some* feedback
that something is alive.
Correct.
Xavier
--
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org
Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>
To: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
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In-reply-to: <c241693f0811060034v448aaa4h47d6ccee91ed7d2e@HIDDEN>
(jasonspiro4@HIDDEN)
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
Organization: GNU's Not UNIX!
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Hi Xavier,
Re. users with vision loss: They need a screen reader (Emacspeak
provides that) or a magnifier utility. But why do they also need
beep-on-error?
What if the screen reader is not working correctly ? The visible
bell could be used to check that something, at least, is working.
Regards
Xavier
--
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org
Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:00:27 +0200
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
In-reply-to: <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN>
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To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN,
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Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN>
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> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
> Cc: <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:19:43 -0800
>
> > > This possibility of turning off or down the bell at the
> > > computer level should not be removed.
> >
> > I think you are barking the wrong tree: no one suggested to remove the
> > possibility to shut up the bell.
>
> If the bell is systematically replaced by the visible bell, then turning off the
> sound at the computer level will not remove the distraction. The sound
> distraction, which you can easily turn off outside Emacs, will have been
> replaced by a sight distraction, which you cannot.
No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the visible bell the
default. To turn it off, you turn off visible-bell, which makes Emacs
beep again, and then turn off the speakers.
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:00:27 +0200
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
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> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
> Cc: <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:19:43 -0800
>
> > > This possibility of turning off or down the bell at the
> > > computer level should not be removed.
> >
> > I think you are barking the wrong tree: no one suggested to remove the
> > possibility to shut up the bell.
>
> If the bell is systematically replaced by the visible bell, then turning off the
> sound at the computer level will not remove the distraction. The sound
> distraction, which you can easily turn off outside Emacs, will have been
> replaced by a sight distraction, which you cannot.
No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the visible bell the
default. To turn it off, you turn off visible-bell, which makes Emacs
beep again, and then turn off the speakers.
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.7 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Nov 2008 19:31:01 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA9JUwhN001475 for <submit@HIDDEN>; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:30:59 -0800 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KzFzu-0001t6-S6 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 14:30:58 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KzFzQ-0001YZ-L9 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 14:30:28 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=44980 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KzFzE-0001Un-Ne for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 14:30:16 -0500 Received: from rcsinet11.oracle.com ([148.87.113.123]:19159 helo=rgminet11.oracle.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1KzFp9-0006c9-Am; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 14:19:51 -0500 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mA9JK4gq012623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:20:05 GMT Received: from acsmt701.oracle.com (acsmt701.oracle.com [141.146.40.71]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mA9JJc6N008571; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:19:39 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.23.165.218) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 19:19:34 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz@HIDDEN>, <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Cc: <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:19:43 -0800 Message-ID: <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: AclCnoA1AHgUPXsVSym+E+RRXWDfpAAASjXA X-Source-IP: acsmt701.oracle.com [141.146.40.71] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.491737C8.0049:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 > > This possibility of turning off or down the bell at the > > computer level should not be removed. > > I think you are barking the wrong tree: no one suggested to remove the > possibility to shut up the bell. If the bell is systematically replaced by the visible bell, then turning off the sound at the computer level will not remove the distraction. The sound distraction, which you can easily turn off outside Emacs, will have been replaced by a sight distraction, which you cannot. > > If you think there are currently too many places where > > Emacs beeps, try instead to remove some of those beeps on a > > case-by-case basis. > > That is what I suggested in the first place, and I still think it's > the best alternative. Two votes, then.
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,GMAIL, HAS_BUG_NUMBER,MURPHY_SEX_L6,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED,RCVD_IN_NIX1 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Nov 2008 19:31:00 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA9JUvVZ001473 for <submit@HIDDEN>; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:30:58 -0800 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KzFzt-0001s9-IU for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 14:30:57 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KzFzK-0001Zc-AN for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 14:30:28 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=44980 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KzFzG-0001Un-Fh for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 14:30:18 -0500 Received: from mtaout3.012.net.il ([84.95.2.7]:65280) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1KzFmm-0005tZ-Us for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 14:17:25 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.i_mtaout3.012.net.il by i_mtaout3.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) id <0KA200C00YSNK500@i_mtaout3.012.net.il> for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:19:11 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.241.172]) by i_mtaout3.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0KA200K28YZYNJA1@i_mtaout3.012.net.il>; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:19:11 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:17:27 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead In-reply-to: <c241693f0811082008w2955cfd3hf2eb89696a3791ad@HIDDEN> X-012-Sender: halo1@HIDDEN To: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Cc: drew.adams@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Message-id: <ubpwor9o8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <c241693f0811082008w2955cfd3hf2eb89696a3791ad@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 9.1 X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 > Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 23:08:48 -0500 > From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> > Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN, 1305@HIDDEN, > control@HIDDEN > > Many people don't know how to turn the PC speaker beep lower or off. I have difficulty believing this. Almost every computer has speakers nowadays, and every kid plays with them all the time. I know my kids do. > And IMO its volume is too high by default. The volume is not under Emacs control, it depends on how the system is set up. > > If you think there are currently too many places where Emacs beeps, try instead > > to remove some of those beeps on a case-by-case basis. Don't just replace > > beeping with flashing. > > How do we remove them on a case-by case basis? The beep from pressing > C-g perhaps is possible to remove individually. But how about the > "End of buffer" one you get when you try to move the point past the > end of the buffer? I see no problem with dealing with each case individually. Just grep the C sources for `bitch_at_user' and `Fding', and the Lisp sources for `ding'.
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.7 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 1305) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Nov 2008 19:19:47 +0000 Received: from rgminet11.oracle.com (rcsinet11.oracle.com [148.87.113.123]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA9JJiI9030390 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:19:45 -0800 Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rgminet11.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mA9JK4gq012623 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:20:05 GMT Received: from acsmt701.oracle.com (acsmt701.oracle.com [141.146.40.71]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mA9JJc6N008571; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 19:19:39 GMT Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.23.165.218) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 19:19:34 +0000 From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz@HIDDEN>, <1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Cc: <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:19:43 -0800 Message-ID: <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: AclCnoA1AHgUPXsVSym+E+RRXWDfpAAASjXA X-Source-IP: acsmt701.oracle.com [141.146.40.71] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.491737C8.0049:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 > > This possibility of turning off or down the bell at the > > computer level should not be removed. > > I think you are barking the wrong tree: no one suggested to remove the > possibility to shut up the bell. If the bell is systematically replaced by the visible bell, then turning off the sound at the computer level will not remove the distraction. The sound distraction, which you can easily turn off outside Emacs, will have been replaced by a sight distraction, which you cannot. > > If you think there are currently too many places where > > Emacs beeps, try instead to remove some of those beeps on a > > case-by-case basis. > > That is what I suggested in the first place, and I still think it's > the best alternative. Two votes, then.
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.9 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,GMAIL, HAS_BUG_NUMBER,MURPHY_SEX_L6,RCVD_IN_NIX1 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 1305) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Nov 2008 19:17:34 +0000 Received: from mtaout3.012.net.il (mtaout3.012.net.il [84.95.2.7]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA9JHUjd030373 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:17:32 -0800 Received: from conversion-daemon.i_mtaout3.012.net.il by i_mtaout3.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) id <0KA200C00YSNK500@i_mtaout3.012.net.il> for 1305@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:19:11 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.241.172]) by i_mtaout3.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2004.12) with ESMTPA id <0KA200K28YZYNJA1@i_mtaout3.012.net.il>; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:19:11 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:17:27 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead In-reply-to: <c241693f0811082008w2955cfd3hf2eb89696a3791ad@HIDDEN> X-012-Sender: halo1@HIDDEN To: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Cc: drew.adams@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Message-id: <ubpwor9o8.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> <c241693f0811082008w2955cfd3hf2eb89696a3791ad@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 23:08:48 -0500 > From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> > Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN, 1305@HIDDEN, > control@HIDDEN > > Many people don't know how to turn the PC speaker beep lower or off. I have difficulty believing this. Almost every computer has speakers nowadays, and every kid plays with them all the time. I know my kids do. > And IMO its volume is too high by default. The volume is not under Emacs control, it depends on how the system is set up. > > If you think there are currently too many places where Emacs beeps, try instead > > to remove some of those beeps on a case-by-case basis. Don't just replace > > beeping with flashing. > > How do we remove them on a case-by case basis? The beep from pressing > C-g perhaps is possible to remove individually. But how about the > "End of buffer" one you get when you try to move the point past the > end of the buffer? I see no problem with dealing with each case individually. Just grep the C sources for `bitch_at_user' and `Fding', and the Lisp sources for `ding'.
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.2 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HAS_BUG_NUMBER autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 1305) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 9 Nov 2008 19:04:23 +0000 Received: from mtaout7.012.net.il (mtaout7.012.net.il [84.95.2.19]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA9J4JoK026053 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 11:04:21 -0800 Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout7.012.net.il by i-mtaout7.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0KA200I00YDR3500@HIDDEN> for 1305@HIDDEN; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:06:00 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.241.172]) by i-mtaout7.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0KA200GB9YE09961@HIDDEN>; Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:06:00 +0200 (IST) Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 21:04:16 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead In-reply-to: <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> X-012-Sender: halo1@HIDDEN To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Cc: jasonspiro4@HIDDEN, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Message-id: <ud4h4raa7.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <c241693f0811081750x6abb7237hc663bee09af55e@HIDDEN> <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@HIDDEN> X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 > From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:57:59 -0800 > Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN > > This possibility of turning off or down the bell at the computer level should > not be removed. I think you are barking the wrong tree: no one suggested to remove the possibility to shut up the bell. > If you think there are currently too many places where Emacs beeps, try instead > to remove some of those beeps on a case-by-case basis. That is what I suggested in the first place, and I still think it's the best alternative.
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 23:08:48 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
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To: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, control <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
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2008/11/8 Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrote:
> IIUC, that sounds terrible, to me. Today, one can simply turn off (or down) the
> sound at the computer level and have zero distraction from the bell. That is not
> unusual for users who share an office - it's not unlike turning down the volume
> of a telephone ring.
>
> This possibility of turning off or down the bell at the computer level should
> not be removed. If Emacs just replaces the bell by the visible bell everywhere,
> that will introduce lots of distraction. And unlike the bell, which has variable
> volume, the visible bell is all-or-none.
Many people don't know how to turn the PC speaker beep lower or off.
And IMO its volume is too high by default. It can distract an entire
classroom. That's 30+ people per beep.
> What's wrong with leaving things as they have been since day one? Users who want
> to turn off the bell can always do so, within Emacs or otherwise. Users should
> be able to easily get any of these behaviors: (1) bell only, (2) visible bell
> only, (3) bell and visible bell, (4) nothing.
OK, can we make that an option on the Options menu? Should I file a
new bug to request that?
> We should not systematically replace the bell by the visible bell just because
> someone found the bell to be annoying. It's not difficult to turn off. Users
> have been living with this option since the beginning.
>
> Bell and visible bell should not really be regarded as replacements for each
> other, in any case. They are two different ways to attract a user's attention.
>
> And one is *not* less annoying than the other. At least not for all users in all
> contexts. Each can be very annoying.
Fair enough.
> If you think there are currently too many places where Emacs beeps, try instead
> to remove some of those beeps on a case-by-case basis. Don't just replace
> beeping with flashing.
How do we remove them on a case-by case basis? The beep from pressing
C-g perhaps is possible to remove individually. But how about the
"End of buffer" one you get when you try to move the point past the
end of the buffer? That is just a beep on (error).
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
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To: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, control <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
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2008/11/8 Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> wrote:
> IIUC, that sounds terrible, to me. Today, one can simply turn off (or down) the
> sound at the computer level and have zero distraction from the bell. That is not
> unusual for users who share an office - it's not unlike turning down the volume
> of a telephone ring.
>
> This possibility of turning off or down the bell at the computer level should
> not be removed. If Emacs just replaces the bell by the visible bell everywhere,
> that will introduce lots of distraction. And unlike the bell, which has variable
> volume, the visible bell is all-or-none.
Many people don't know how to turn the PC speaker beep lower or off.
And IMO its volume is too high by default. It can distract an entire
classroom. That's 30+ people per beep.
> What's wrong with leaving things as they have been since day one? Users who want
> to turn off the bell can always do so, within Emacs or otherwise. Users should
> be able to easily get any of these behaviors: (1) bell only, (2) visible bell
> only, (3) bell and visible bell, (4) nothing.
OK, can we make that an option on the Options menu? Should I file a
new bug to request that?
> We should not systematically replace the bell by the visible bell just because
> someone found the bell to be annoying. It's not difficult to turn off. Users
> have been living with this option since the beginning.
>
> Bell and visible bell should not really be regarded as replacements for each
> other, in any case. They are two different ways to attract a user's attention.
>
> And one is *not* less annoying than the other. At least not for all users in all
> contexts. Each can be very annoying.
Fair enough.
> If you think there are currently too many places where Emacs beeps, try instead
> to remove some of those beeps on a case-by-case basis. Don't just replace
> beeping with flashing.
How do we remove them on a case-by case basis? The beep from pressing
C-g perhaps is possible to remove individually. But how about the
"End of buffer" one you get when you try to move the point past the
end of the buffer? That is just a beep on (error).
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Subject: RE: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
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> All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead
>
> > Oh, that would be a clear "no", indeed. Of course we'd
> > replace it with
> > the visible-bell (and I suspect that OP also intended it that way).
>
> I didn't intend it that way: the visual bell is also annoying, though
> less annoying than the audible bell. But fair enough. :) Retitling
> accordingly.
IIUC, that sounds terrible, to me. Today, one can simply turn off (or down) the
sound at the computer level and have zero distraction from the bell. That is not
unusual for users who share an office - it's not unlike turning down the volume
of a telephone ring.
This possibility of turning off or down the bell at the computer level should
not be removed. If Emacs just replaces the bell by the visible bell everywhere,
that will introduce lots of distraction. And unlike the bell, which has variable
volume, the visible bell is all-or-none.
What's wrong with leaving things as they have been since day one? Users who want
to turn off the bell can always do so, within Emacs or otherwise. Users should
be able to easily get any of these behaviors: (1) bell only, (2) visible bell
only, (3) bell and visible bell, (4) nothing.
We should not systematically replace the bell by the visible bell just because
someone found the bell to be annoying. It's not difficult to turn off. Users
have been living with this option since the beginning.
Bell and visible bell should not really be regarded as replacements for each
other, in any case. They are two different ways to attract a user's attention.
And one is *not* less annoying than the other. At least not for all users in all
contexts. Each can be very annoying.
If you think there are currently too many places where Emacs beeps, try instead
to remove some of those beeps on a case-by-case basis. Don't just replace
beeping with flashing.
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Subject: RE: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 19:57:59 -0800
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> All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead
>
> > Oh, that would be a clear "no", indeed. Of course we'd
> > replace it with
> > the visible-bell (and I suspect that OP also intended it that way).
>
> I didn't intend it that way: the visual bell is also annoying, though
> less annoying than the audible bell. But fair enough. :) Retitling
> accordingly.
IIUC, that sounds terrible, to me. Today, one can simply turn off (or down) the
sound at the computer level and have zero distraction from the bell. That is not
unusual for users who share an office - it's not unlike turning down the volume
of a telephone ring.
This possibility of turning off or down the bell at the computer level should
not be removed. If Emacs just replaces the bell by the visible bell everywhere,
that will introduce lots of distraction. And unlike the bell, which has variable
volume, the visible bell is all-or-none.
What's wrong with leaving things as they have been since day one? Users who want
to turn off the bell can always do so, within Emacs or otherwise. Users should
be able to easily get any of these behaviors: (1) bell only, (2) visible bell
only, (3) bell and visible bell, (4) nothing.
We should not systematically replace the bell by the visible bell just because
someone found the bell to be annoying. It's not difficult to turn off. Users
have been living with this option since the beginning.
Bell and visible bell should not really be regarded as replacements for each
other, in any case. They are two different ways to attract a user's attention.
And one is *not* less annoying than the other. At least not for all users in all
contexts. Each can be very annoying.
If you think there are currently too many places where Emacs beeps, try instead
to remove some of those beeps on a case-by-case basis. Don't just replace
beeping with flashing.
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available."Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
to control@HIDDEN.
Full text available.
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 20:50:59 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Sender: jasonspiro@HIDDEN
To: control <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead
Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN, "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>
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retitle 1305 All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead
thanks
2008/11/7 Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote:
> Oh, that would be a clear "no", indeed. Of course we'd replace it with
> the visible-bell (and I suspect that OP also intended it that way).
I didn't intend it that way: the visual bell is also annoying, though
less annoying than the audible bell. But fair enough. :) Retitling
accordingly.
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2008 20:50:59 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
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To: control <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead
Cc: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN, "Stefan Monnier" <monnier@HIDDEN>
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retitle 1305 All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead
thanks
2008/11/7 Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote:
> Oh, that would be a clear "no", indeed. Of course we'd replace it with
> the visible-bell (and I suspect that OP also intended it that way).
I didn't intend it that way: the visual bell is also annoying, though
less annoying than the audible bell. But fair enough. :) Retitling
accordingly.
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN,
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
Message-ID: <jwv63mzcr0i.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN>
<uwsffsu5m.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvzlkbeglq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 13:48:31 -0500
In-Reply-To: <uiqqzsclo.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 07 Nov
2008 18:52:03 +0200")
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>> That sounds like a bug to me. In which circumstances does the
>> visible-bell fail to work?
> I didn't mean visible-bell fails to work, I meant if we abolish any
> visual or audible signs. The OP asked as his 1st choice to disable
> the beep, not replace it with visible-bell.
Oh, that would be a clear "no", indeed. Of course we'd replace it with
the visible-bell (and I suspect that OP also intended it that way).
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN,
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
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>> That sounds like a bug to me. In which circumstances does the
>> visible-bell fail to work?
> I didn't mean visible-bell fails to work, I meant if we abolish any
> visual or audible signs. The OP asked as his 1st choice to disable
> the beep, not replace it with visible-bell.
Oh, that would be a clear "no", indeed. Of course we'd replace it with
the visible-bell (and I suspect that OP also intended it that way).
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:52:03 +0200
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
In-reply-to: <jwvzlkbeglq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
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To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jasonspiro4@HIDDEN,
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Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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References: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN> <uwsffsu5m.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvzlkbeglq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 1305@HIDDEN, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 09:54:02 -0500
>
> > The problem is, without the beep, the screen sometimes does not change
> > at all. And that is BAD, from the HE point of view, at least IMO.
>
> That sounds like a bug to me. In which circumstances does the
> visible-bell fail to work?
I didn't mean visible-bell fails to work, I meant if we abolish any
visual or audible signs. The OP asked as his 1st choice to disable
the beep, not replace it with visible-bell.
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:52:03 +0200
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
In-reply-to: <jwvzlkbeglq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
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Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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References: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN> <uwsffsu5m.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvzlkbeglq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 1305@HIDDEN, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
> Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 09:54:02 -0500
>
> > The problem is, without the beep, the screen sometimes does not change
> > at all. And that is BAD, from the HE point of view, at least IMO.
>
> That sounds like a bug to me. In which circumstances does the
> visible-bell fail to work?
I didn't mean visible-bell fails to work, I meant if we abolish any
visual or audible signs. The OP asked as his 1st choice to disable
the beep, not replace it with visible-bell.
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>,
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
Message-ID: <jwvzlkbeglq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN>
<uwsffsu5m.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 09:54:02 -0500
In-Reply-To: <uwsffsu5m.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 07 Nov
2008 12:32:53 +0200")
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>> By default, Emacs makes an audible beep every time the user makes an
>> error. It would be great if you could please change the default either:
>> 1. To not make any audible or visible bell when the user makes an
>> error. (This would be best.)
> Many other GUI applications beep under some circumstances that need
> user attention.
Actually, in my experience it's very rare for "modern" GUI applications
to beep.
>> B. Most apps beep only when something very bad happens. But Emacs
>> beeps even upon minor mistakes like scrolling past end of buffer, or
>> pressing an unassigned key. It even beeps on non-mistakes like
>> pressing C-g. The amount of beeping may make users uncomfortable.
> Maybe we should simply revisit the places where we bitch-at-user, and
> remove the beep from some of them.
> But I don't see anything bad in beeping under extreme circumstances,
> and don't support disabling it entirely.
I agree on the principle to beep in extreme circumstances, but since
these are rare (by definition of "extreme"), we should probably attack
from the other side: use the visible-bell by default, and add a new
function that does an actual beep (additionally to the visual bell) and
then try and find the few places where it's warranted.
>> You might say, "But if not for the beep, users won't notice errors".
>> No. They will notice. Human eyes notice significant onscreen changes
>> (perhaps 3 words or more) easily.
> The problem is, without the beep, the screen sometimes does not change
> at all. And that is BAD, from the HE point of view, at least IMO.
That sounds like a bug to me. In which circumstances does the
visible-bell fail to work?
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>,
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
Message-ID: <jwvzlkbeglq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN>
<uwsffsu5m.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 09:54:02 -0500
In-Reply-To: <uwsffsu5m.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 07 Nov
2008 12:32:53 +0200")
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>> By default, Emacs makes an audible beep every time the user makes an
>> error. It would be great if you could please change the default either:
>> 1. To not make any audible or visible bell when the user makes an
>> error. (This would be best.)
> Many other GUI applications beep under some circumstances that need
> user attention.
Actually, in my experience it's very rare for "modern" GUI applications
to beep.
>> B. Most apps beep only when something very bad happens. But Emacs
>> beeps even upon minor mistakes like scrolling past end of buffer, or
>> pressing an unassigned key. It even beeps on non-mistakes like
>> pressing C-g. The amount of beeping may make users uncomfortable.
> Maybe we should simply revisit the places where we bitch-at-user, and
> remove the beep from some of them.
> But I don't see anything bad in beeping under extreme circumstances,
> and don't support disabling it entirely.
I agree on the principle to beep in extreme circumstances, but since
these are rare (by definition of "extreme"), we should probably attack
from the other side: use the visible-bell by default, and add a new
function that does an actual beep (additionally to the visual bell) and
then try and find the few places where it's warranted.
>> You might say, "But if not for the beep, users won't notice errors".
>> No. They will notice. Human eyes notice significant onscreen changes
>> (perhaps 3 words or more) easily.
> The problem is, without the beep, the screen sometimes does not change
> at all. And that is BAD, from the HE point of view, at least IMO.
That sounds like a bug to me. In which circumstances does the
visible-bell fail to work?
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,GMAIL, HAS_BUG_NUMBER,MURPHY_SEX_L6 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 1305) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 7 Nov 2008 10:33:27 +0000 Received: from mtaout1.012.net.il (mtaout1.012.net.il [84.95.2.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA7AXNR5015426 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Fri, 7 Nov 2008 02:33:24 -0800 Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout1.012.net.il by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0K9Y00100L12DA00@HIDDEN> for 1305@HIDDEN; Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:34:46 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.241.172]) by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0K9Y00M0RLDRCG20@HIDDEN>; Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:34:46 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:32:53 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere In-reply-to: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN> X-012-Sender: halo1@HIDDEN To: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Message-id: <uwsffsu5m.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN> X-CrossAssassin-Score: 2 > Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:51:13 -0500 > From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> > Cc: > > By default, Emacs makes an audible beep every time the user makes an > error. It would be great if you could please change the default > either: > > 1. To not make any audible or visible bell when the user makes an > error. (This would be best.) Many other GUI applications beep under some circumstances that need user attention. > B. Most apps beep only when something very bad happens. But Emacs > beeps even upon minor mistakes like scrolling past end of buffer, or > pressing an unassigned key. It even beeps on non-mistakes like > pressing C-g. The amount of beeping may make users uncomfortable. Maybe we should simply revisit the places where we bitch-at-user, and remove the beep from some of them. But I don't see anything bad in beeping under extreme circumstances, and don't support disabling it entirely. > You might say, "But if not for the beep, users won't notice errors". > No. They will notice. Human eyes notice significant onscreen changes > (perhaps 3 words or more) easily. The problem is, without the beep, the screen sometimes does not change at all. And that is BAD, from the HE point of view, at least IMO.
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.6 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,GMAIL, HAS_BUG_NUMBER,MURPHY_SEX_L6,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at submit) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 7 Nov 2008 10:33:24 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [199.232.76.165]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA7AXLDB015427 for <submit@HIDDEN>; Fri, 7 Nov 2008 02:33:22 -0800 Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KyOeW-0008RG-Gg for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 07 Nov 2008 05:33:20 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KyOeU-0008PB-PZ for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 07 Nov 2008 05:33:19 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=46395 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KyOeU-0008Ox-98 for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 07 Nov 2008 05:33:18 -0500 Received: from mtaout1.012.net.il ([84.95.2.1]:24290) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1KyOeU-0008Ge-Fc for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 07 Nov 2008 05:33:18 -0500 Received: from conversion-daemon.i-mtaout1.012.net.il by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0K9Y00100L12DA00@HIDDEN> for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:34:46 +0200 (IST) Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.126.241.172]) by i-mtaout1.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0K9Y00M0RLDRCG20@HIDDEN>; Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:34:46 +0200 (IST) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 12:32:53 +0200 From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere In-reply-to: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN> X-012-Sender: halo1@HIDDEN To: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Reply-to: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Message-id: <uwsffsu5m.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: Solaris 9.1 > Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:51:13 -0500 > From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> > Cc: > > By default, Emacs makes an audible beep every time the user makes an > error. It would be great if you could please change the default > either: > > 1. To not make any audible or visible bell when the user makes an > error. (This would be best.) Many other GUI applications beep under some circumstances that need user attention. > B. Most apps beep only when something very bad happens. But Emacs > beeps even upon minor mistakes like scrolling past end of buffer, or > pressing an unassigned key. It even beeps on non-mistakes like > pressing C-g. The amount of beeping may make users uncomfortable. Maybe we should simply revisit the places where we bitch-at-user, and remove the beep from some of them. But I don't see anything bad in beeping under extreme circumstances, and don't support disabling it entirely. > You might say, "But if not for the beep, users won't notice errors". > No. They will notice. Human eyes notice significant onscreen changes > (perhaps 3 words or more) easily. The problem is, without the beep, the screen sometimes does not change at all. And that is BAD, from the HE point of view, at least IMO.
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: peter.rayner@HIDDEN
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#1305: OT: Should the Emacs team leave beep-on-error enabled for the sake of people with vision loss?
Message-ID: <jwv1vxoqniq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <loom.20081106T072703-881@HIDDEN>
<18706.50729.342614.890612@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:28:12 -0500
In-Reply-To: <18706.50729.342614.890612@HIDDEN> (Peter Rayner's
message of "Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:25:45 +0100")
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> Provided it can be turned off I would leave it on by default. If my
> emacspeak doesn't come up talking it's nice to get *some* feedback
> that something is alive.
The emacspeak config should simply include a (setq visible-bell nil) at
the very beginning.
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Dan Nicolaescu <dann@HIDDEN>
Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
Message-ID: <jwvd4h8qnwr.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@HIDDEN>
References: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN>
<200811062334.mA6NYLB6012009@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:19:34 -0500
In-Reply-To: <200811062334.mA6NYLB6012009@HIDDEN> (Dan
Nicolaescu's message of "Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:34:21 -0800 (PST)")
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> FWIW, I find the beep annoying and useless too. I disable it in .emacs,
> but every time I have to use emacs -Q to debug something it gets on my
> nerves....
I hate all forms of beeping. So I'm definitely in favor of using the
visual bell by default, tho I never dared to propose it, seeing how it's
not even in the "Options" menu.
Stefan
Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.4 required=4.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FOURLA,GMAIL, HAS_BUG_NUMBER,X_DEBBUGS_NO_ACK autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 1305) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 6 Nov 2008 23:34:35 +0000 Received: from sallyv2.ics.uci.edu (sallyv2.ics.uci.edu [128.195.1.120]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA6NYXeJ013194 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:34:34 -0800 Received: from mothra.ics.uci.edu (mothra.ics.uci.edu [128.195.6.93]) by sallyv2.ics.uci.edu (8.13.7+Sun/8.13.7) with ESMTP id mA6NYLkZ023177; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:34:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dann@localhost) by mothra.ics.uci.edu (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.6/Submit) id mA6NYLB6012009; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:34:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 15:34:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200811062334.mA6NYLB6012009@HIDDEN> From: Dan Nicolaescu <dann@HIDDEN> To: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> Cc: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere References: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN> X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes In-Reply-To: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN> (Jason Spiro's message of "Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:51:13 -0500") Lines: 30 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-ICS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ICS-MailScanner-ID: mA6NYLkZ023177 X-ICS-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-ICS-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-1.44, required 5, autolearn=disabled, ALL_TRUSTED -1.44) X-ICS-MailScanner-From: dann@HIDDEN "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN> writes: > By default, Emacs makes an audible beep every time the user makes an > error. It would be great if you could please change the default > either: > > 1. To not make any audible or visible bell when the user makes an > error. (This would be best.) > > 2. Or to use a visible bell only. (This would be an acceptable > alternative. Plus, Emacs already knows how to show a visible bell.) > > If you do not change the default, some Emacs newbies may decide not to > use Emacs, but to use other editors instead, perhaps non-Free ones. > Here are three reasons why they may decide that: > > A. Some users find that the beep is harsh and unpleasant to the ear. > > B. Most apps beep only when something very bad happens. But Emacs > beeps even upon minor mistakes like scrolling past end of buffer, or > pressing an unassigned key. It even beeps on non-mistakes like > pressing C-g. The amount of beeping may make users uncomfortable. > > C. Some Emacs newbies try Emacs for the first time at the office. At > the office, ten or more people may hear each beep. The feeling of > having distracted coworkers may make users even more uncomfortable. FWIW, I find the beep annoying and useless too. I disable it in .emacs, but every time I have to use emacs -Q to debug something it gets on my nerves....
bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.0 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 1305) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 6 Nov 2008 21:10:12 +0000 Received: from Marshal4.ul.ie (marshal4.ul.ie [193.1.100.137]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA6LA7qP010286 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 13:10:09 -0800 Received: from staffexchange1.ul.campus (Not Verified[193.1.101.31]) by Marshal4.ul.ie with MailMarshal (v6,4,5,5695) id <B49135d2d0000>; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:10:05 +0000 Received: from ezekiel.csis.ul.ie ([193.1.97.53]) by staffexchange1.ul.campus over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:10:05 +0000 Received: from jcgs by ezekiel.csis.ul.ie with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <jcgs@HIDDEN>) id 1KyC8T-0000y5-03; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 21:11:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18707.23932.991103.565491@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 21:11:24 +0000 From: john.sturdy@HIDDEN To: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: emacs beep X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 22.2.1 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Nov 2008 21:10:05.0135 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A520DF0:01C94054] I'm sighted, and I find the beep useful. __John
john.sturdy@HIDDEN:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at unknown) by unknown; unknown X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rzlab.ucr.edu X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.1 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_50,FOURLA autolearn=no version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: (at 1305) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 6 Nov 2008 10:26:09 +0000 Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mA6AQ3NL011846 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 02:26:06 -0800 Received: from cyclose1.extra.cea.fr (cyclose1.extra.cea.fr [132.167.198.22]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-1.1) with ESMTP id mA6AOdKp008754 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:24:39 +0100 Received: from orpin2.extra.cea.fr (orpin2.extra.cea.fr [132.167.198.5]) by cyclose1.extra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id mA6APuLx018105 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:25:56 +0100 (envelope-from peter.rayner@HIDDEN) Received: from lsce5099 (idefix1.extra.cea.fr [132.166.43.200]) by orpin2.extra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Extranet-out-1.0) with ESMTP id mA6APuhn019881 for <1305@HIDDEN>; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:25:56 +0100 From: Peter Rayner <peter.rayner@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <18706.50729.342614.890612@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 11:25:45 +0100 To: 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: OT: Should the Emacs team leave beep-on-error enabled for the sake of people with vision loss? In-Reply-To: <loom.20081106T072703-881@HIDDEN> References: <loom.20081106T072703-881@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.5-504 under Emacs 22.1.1 (i386-redhat-linux-gnu) Reply-To: peter.rayner@HIDDEN Provided it can be turned off I would leave it on by default. If my emacspeak doesn't come up talking it's nice to get *some* feedback that something is alive. cheers Peter -- Peter Rayner: LSCE/IPSL, Laboratoire CEA-CNRS-UVSQ address: Bat. 701 LSCE - CEA de Saclay Orme des Merisiers, 91191 Gif/Yvette work: +33 (1) 69 08 88 11; mobile: +33 (6) 75 46 56 52; fax: +33 (1) 69 08 77 16 mail-to: peter.rayner@HIDDEN web: http://www-lsce.cea.fr/Pisp/52/peter.rayner.html
peter.rayner@HIDDEN:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
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To: "Xavier Maillard" <xma@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
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Hi Xavier,
Re. users with vision loss: They need a screen reader (Emacspeak
provides that) or a magnifier utility. But why do they also need
beep-on-error? I started a thread at
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.emacspeak.general today to ask if
they really need it. And if they do need it, remember they're in the
minority. Will they truly mind searching online to learn how to
enable it?
Re. searching online and reading the documentation: Users don't want
to waste time on that. They want to spend their time getting things
done. Let's make Emacs an editor for getting things done.
-Jason
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
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Hi Xavier,
Re. users with vision loss: They need a screen reader (Emacspeak
provides that) or a magnifier utility. But why do they also need
beep-on-error? I started a thread at
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.emacspeak.general today to ask if
they really need it. And if they do need it, remember they're in the
minority. Will they truly mind searching online to learn how to
enable it?
Re. searching online and reading the documentation: Users don't want
to waste time on that. They want to spend their time getting things
done. Let's make Emacs an editor for getting things done.
-Jason
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>
To: Jason Spiro <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>, 1305 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN, bug-submit-list@HIDDEN,
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In-reply-to: <ff7ab970811041451y4f755e66o84dc03e992fc8d06@HIDDEN>
(jasonspiro4@HIDDEN)
Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default,
to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
Organization: GNU's Not UNIX!
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Hi,
I do not think it is a good idea to change this. You know, GNU
Emacs is also used by visually impaired and blind users and we
*must* satisfy these user class too. It is not a matter of
newbiness. Plus, resetting this setting is covered by many howto
and resources over the Internet so it should be pretty easy to
disable it for any user.
After that, if users prefer not to use emacs for such thing,
that's okay, go and choose another editor. Any user for any
editor should just RTFM when they start using it. I guess this is
an universal requirement when starting to use any software; emacs
is no exception.
Regards
Xavier
--
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org
Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#1305: Please disable the audible bell by default,
to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
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Hi,
I do not think it is a good idea to change this. You know, GNU
Emacs is also used by visually impaired and blind users and we
*must* satisfy these user class too. It is not a matter of
newbiness. Plus, resetting this setting is covered by many howto
and resources over the Internet so it should be pretty easy to
disable it for any user.
After that, if users prefer not to use emacs for such thing,
that's okay, go and choose another editor. Any user for any
editor should just RTFM when they start using it. I guess this is
an universal requirement when starting to use any software; emacs
is no exception.
Regards
Xavier
--
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org
Xavier Maillard <xma@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 17:51:13 -0500
From: "Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: Please disable the audible bell by default, to avoid discouraging newbies in crowded offices and elsewhere
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By default, Emacs makes an audible beep every time the user makes an
error. It would be great if you could please change the default
either:
1. To not make any audible or visible bell when the user makes an
error. (This would be best.)
2. Or to use a visible bell only. (This would be an acceptable
alternative. Plus, Emacs already knows how to show a visible bell.)
If you do not change the default, some Emacs newbies may decide not to
use Emacs, but to use other editors instead, perhaps non-Free ones.
Here are three reasons why they may decide that:
A. Some users find that the beep is harsh and unpleasant to the ear.
B. Most apps beep only when something very bad happens. But Emacs
beeps even upon minor mistakes like scrolling past end of buffer, or
pressing an unassigned key. It even beeps on non-mistakes like
pressing C-g. The amount of beeping may make users uncomfortable.
C. Some Emacs newbies try Emacs for the first time at the office. At
the office, ten or more people may hear each beep. The feeling of
having distracted coworkers may make users even more uncomfortable.
You might say, "So newbies should disable the beep themselves". No.
They may not bother.
You might say, "But if not for the beep, users won't notice errors".
No. They will notice. Human eyes notice significant onscreen changes
(perhaps 3 words or more) easily.
Regards,
Jason Spiro
"Jason Spiro" <jasonspiro4@HIDDEN>:Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>.
Full text available.bug-submit-list@HIDDEN, Emacs Bugs <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:bug#1305; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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