GNU bug report logs - #22243
eieio-opt: not quite (?) optional functions

Please note: This is a static page, with minimal formatting, updated once a day.
Click here to see this page with the latest information and nicer formatting.
Package: emacs; Severity: wishlist; Reported by: Ivan Shmakov <ivan@HIDDEN>; dated Sat, 26 Dec 2015 13:01:02 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

Message received at 22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 22243) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2019 17:38:25 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 01 13:38:25 2019
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55125 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1htF1y-0001U4-8W
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 13:38:22 -0400
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:43228)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1htF1w-0001Tu-ND
 for 22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 13:38:21 -0400
Received: from 77.18.62.220.tmi.telenormobil.no ([77.18.62.220] helo=sandy)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1htF1c-0002Qg-Gb; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 19:38:04 +0200
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#22243: eieio-opt: not quite (?) optional functions
References: <87wps1xt36.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87d0hoke2h.fsf@HIDDEN> <85a7cs4wpd.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2019 19:37:59 +0200
In-Reply-To: <85a7cs4wpd.fsf@HIDDEN> (Noam Postavsky's message of "Thu, 01
 Aug 2019 13:33:34 -0400")
Message-ID: <87pnloiy6g.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> writes: > Lars
 Ingebrigtsen
 <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > >> "actually not" in common usage means "absolutely
 is" > > Does it really? I don't think I've ever seen it used that way. 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 0.0 TVD_RCVD_IP            Message was received from an IP address
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 22243
Cc: 22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ivan Shmakov <ivan@HIDDEN>
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN> writes:

> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> "actually not" in common usage means "absolutely is"
>
> Does it really?  I don't think I've ever seen it used that way.

You haven't noticed that when somebody says "This is actually ..." then
it's usually not "..."?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#22243; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 22243) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2019 17:33:42 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 01 13:33:42 2019
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55118 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1htExS-0001NE-LZ
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 13:33:42 -0400
Received: from mail-io1-f45.google.com ([209.85.166.45]:44174)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <npostavs@HIDDEN>) id 1htExQ-0001N1-3e
 for 22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 13:33:40 -0400
Received: by mail-io1-f45.google.com with SMTP id s7so145990991iob.11
 for <22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:33:40 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
 h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id
 :user-agent:mime-version;
 bh=pMOYtV/mAKGXGHhHHYthAzh21fiH19kvSPt0DTfeBRU=;
 b=nhNoLpTNPIGD4ccutIohZXI3EPIg3kBor1CXVibTb7AjinTjS3763/j8I2mmVAVNPN
 h54qhL0axGi4eYDcd2O5dkHVX49kARTsLuxdyN5LF5B1/KbuHuw1nJdUwxMXIVWqHge5
 7G3DntY6b4Ad+IAUcBa49EJVleNpMW9fUipn/jSRCCSTuWvMa+kTFPzHJLwxgy0BzKjL
 iGRDvZ0gsF/pfx3f/CtcWa/XVoDRCZEJcUb+h974Ehc6JmHMWB9j4oGlU+vF5o+5EtxT
 rk7/s4XUGBLJEMvnwSzEmAFd54IRRctT+CqfKSqUJ807yRx72GQ3sNIzpwrmo0w7F0Vw
 QJWg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
 h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to
 :message-id:user-agent:mime-version;
 bh=pMOYtV/mAKGXGHhHHYthAzh21fiH19kvSPt0DTfeBRU=;
 b=cZrPz3gL19V4lnZQRar13042WG4tjMbuhrKZErfbrzT59lpyZWJ6ux6FVkC7MI0fkz
 A5jfbE+uvcH/BE0tLZ3iHpQJMNZN/nK8mBv8L7pk3w+58X0Bg++g10/wGuJi5SIXNF5t
 2xMibacLFsaAHU0tyHQp33Z2WFElj2CeYIeprfc4avupIezpQLnZbA2m/7fjnCmVKaOf
 qE8T7H+pmp6JX1pbi/QhHz4snJ+tVdyxsMl/Ccu5bYIrK1uOFbvAVIzzvImPW688pInR
 I6fJLktcx8YDujKH+/COYsYzVnXH9iyWOjPRLJKmbQGXNtPp7KyCAgKHNkS/lGbfvT/a
 c1DA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXpyK1xaRMyenr6M1jT5tShDoG0p/ZNFVlHbwu+AHOK8u0vg+jh
 Kzh+ZYYliUdr4jNSjijn1b9LEPRC
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx7Lia7CKHXX3kadMXSkI9F8Fhw6Y4R8RwFn0JOtNLlCgRC2pGhq83EFjSSV8PxpWpQoCsceQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:201:: with SMTP id
 e1mr52336858jaq.45.1564680814278; 
 Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:33:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from vhost2
 (CPE001143542e1f-CMf81d0f809fa0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com. [99.230.51.196])
 by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m4sm60943318iok.68.2019.08.01.10.33.33
 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256);
 Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:33:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#22243: eieio-opt: not quite (?) optional functions
References: <87wps1xt36.fsf@HIDDEN> <87d0hoke2h.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2019 13:33:34 -0400
In-Reply-To: <87d0hoke2h.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of
 "Thu, 01 Aug 2019 19:09:26 +0200")
Message-ID: <85a7cs4wpd.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1.92 (windows-nt)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 22243
Cc: 22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ivan Shmakov <ivan@HIDDEN>
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> "actually not" in common usage means "absolutely is"

Does it really?  I don't think I've ever seen it used that way.

>    944	;; FIXME: This is not actually needed any more

I interpret this as meaning "this could be removed, but doing so might
also require adjusting some other things".
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#22243; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at 22243) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2019 17:09:59 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Aug 01 13:09:59 2019
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55084 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1htEaQ-0004yp-Qq
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 13:09:59 -0400
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:42792)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1htEaL-0004yb-6V
 for 22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 13:09:53 -0400
Received: from 77.18.62.220.tmi.telenormobil.no ([77.18.62.220] helo=sandy)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1htEZz-0002FZ-C0; Thu, 01 Aug 2019 19:09:32 +0200
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Ivan Shmakov <ivan@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#22243: eieio-opt: not quite (?) optional functions
References: <87wps1xt36.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2019 19:09:26 +0200
In-Reply-To: <87wps1xt36.fsf@HIDDEN> (Ivan Shmakov's message of
 "Sat, 26 Dec 2015 13:00:45 +0000")
Message-ID: <87d0hoke2h.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Ivan Shmakov <ivan@HIDDEN> writes: > eieio.el currently
 (1dcf9a5d2a72; 2015-12-22 17:02:30 UTC) > reads: > > 943 ;; Hook ourselves
 into help system for describing classes and methods. > 944 ;; FIXME: This
 is not actually needed any mor [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 0.0 TVD_RCVD_IP            Message was received from an IP address
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 22243
Cc: 22243 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

Ivan Shmakov <ivan@HIDDEN> writes:

> 	eieio.el currently (1dcf9a5d2a72; 2015-12-22 17:02:30 UTC)
> 	reads:
>
>    943	;; Hook ourselves into help system for describing classes and meth=
ods.
>    944	;; FIXME: This is not actually needed any more since we can click =
on the
>    945	;; hyperlink from the constructor's docstring to see the type defi=
nition.
>    946	(add-hook 'help-fns-describe-function-functions 'eieio-help-constr=
uctor)
>
> 	This results that with -Q, 'eieio-opt gets loaded immediately
> 	once the user tries to use the Emacs help system (say, C-h f),
> 	making the file=E2=80=99s description (below) somewhat misleading, as
> 	the library which is hooked into such a basic Emacs facility
> 	could hardly be called =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D.

If comment about this not being needed was added in 2015 by Stefan.  But
it says that it's "actually" not needed, and "actually not" in common
usage means "absolutely is", so that's quite confusing.

But if it's not needed, then it sounds like we should remove it?

--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#22243; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Dec 2015 13:00:57 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 26 08:00:57 2015
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36955 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1aCoSv-0004Bg-FK
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 08:00:57 -0500
Received: from fely.am-1.org ([78.47.74.50]:60352)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84)
 (envelope-from <ivan@HIDDEN>) id 1aCoSu-00049v-4b
 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 08:00:56 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net;
 s=a2013295; 
 h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:Sender:Subject:To:From;
 bh=1Vi50ObNinsiUCAFsTHsJge9r6N+8nBE8THQWv0rPVk=; 
 b=K1J1GAK7uOdUPIzW5yeD11Wxp/WnBH9G5GJLhHmOAdsv52172YiAWcWgQjuv/mIQpvne5ZRg5UdNc54DEmdG0TPaRvsdFuKMXgN5a0XKBAMfmy5ZIvtkah7HycE1LiV+SXkGM0GMC1TS+rR12dGSK+hnu4Uv/SrxSuLjweJ3Qyw=;
Received: from violet.siamics.net ([2001:470:1f13:1eb::1:1d])
 by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128)
 (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from <ivan@HIDDEN>) id 1aCoSs-0002XG-Kh
 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 13:00:54 +0000
Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net)
 by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128)
 (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from <ivan@HIDDEN>) id 1aCoSk-000157-7h
 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 26 Dec 2015 20:00:46 +0700
From: Ivan Shmakov <ivan@HIDDEN>
To: submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: eieio-opt: not quite (?) optional functions 
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 13:00:45 +0000
Message-ID: <87wps1xt36.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/)

Package:  emacs
Severity: wishlist

	eieio.el currently (1dcf9a5d2a72; 2015-12-22 17:02:30 UTC)
	reads:

   943	;; Hook ourselves into help system for describing classes and method=
s.
   944	;; FIXME: This is not actually needed any more since we can click on=
 the
   945	;; hyperlink from the constructor's docstring to see the type defini=
tion.
   946	(add-hook 'help-fns-describe-function-functions 'eieio-help-construc=
tor)

	This results that with -Q, 'eieio-opt gets loaded immediately
	once the user tries to use the Emacs help system (say, C-h f),
	making the file=E2=80=99s description (below) somewhat misleading, as
	the library which is hooked into such a basic Emacs facility
	could hardly be called =E2=80=9Coptional=E2=80=9D.

;;; eieio-opt.el -- eieio optional functions (debug, printing, speedbar)

	I don=E2=80=99t think I deal much with EIEIO objects, but I=E2=80=99ve rem=
oved
	the function from the hook (below) quite some time ago and seen
	no adverse effects so far.  Hence, I guess the add-hook above
	may be reconsidered (per its own FIXME notice.)

(remove-hook 'help-fns-describe-function-functions
             'eieio-help-constructor)

	As an aside, I=E2=80=99ve spotted this issue because eieio-opt depends
	on 'speedbar, which I=E2=80=99ve become aware of a decade ago, and still
	have found no use for; thus anything dependent on it immediately
	raises my suspicion.

--=20
FSF associate member #7257  http://am-1.org/~ivan/      =E2=80=A6 3013 B6A0=
 230E 334A
Acknowledgement sent to Ivan Shmakov <ivan@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#22243; Package emacs. Full text available.
Please note: This is a static page, with minimal formatting, updated once a day.
Click here to see this page with the latest information and nicer formatting.
Last modified: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:00:02 UTC

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.