GNU logs - #34390, boring messages

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Subject: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer Used"
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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 16:49:05 +0000
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Currently package.el reports packages as "Obsolete" when this is
probably not a good choice of word, as it is being interpreted as "no
longer in active development".

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2019-02/msg00070.html

It happens when several versions of a package are installed. Consider
this report from M-x package-list-packages

  dash               2.12.0        obsolete              A modern list library for Emacs
  eglot              1.4           incompat   gnu        Client for Language Server Protocol (LSP) servers
  kiwix              0.4.0         incompat   melpa-s... Kiwix interface and support.

Dash is showing here are obsolete because in my installation 2.15.0 is installed.

  company            0.9.9         dependency            Modular text completion framework
  dash               2.15.0        dependency            A modern list library for Emacs
  dash-functional    2.15.0        dependency            Collection of useful combinators for Emacs Lisp
  direnv             1.4.0         dependency            direnv support for emacs

The problem is "obsolete" line appears quite some distance away from
other line which shows dash is installed.

I would suggested "installed but outdated" perhaps. Or "More Recent
Version Installed". Both a bit long.

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To: phillip.lord@HIDDEN (Phillip Lord)
Subject: bug#34390: Acknowledgement (package.el says "Obsolete" when it
 means "No Longer Used")
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Subject: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer Used"
Resent-From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob@HIDDEN>
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From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob@HIDDEN>
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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 17:10:53 +0000
In-Reply-To: <87pns2p6ny.fsf@HIDDEN> (Phillip Lord's message of "Fri,
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phillip.lord@HIDDEN (Phillip Lord) writes:

> Currently package.el reports packages as "Obsolete" when this is
> probably not a good choice of word, as it is being interpreted as "no
> longer in active development".
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2019-02/msg00070.html
>
> It happens when several versions of a package are installed. Consider
> this report from M-x package-list-packages
>
>   dash               2.12.0        obsolete              A modern list library for Emacs
>   eglot 1.4 incompat gnu Client for Language Server Protocol (LSP) servers
>   kiwix              0.4.0         incompat   melpa-s... Kiwix interface and support.
>
>
> Dash is showing here are obsolete because in my installation 2.15.0 is installed.
>
>
>   company            0.9.9         dependency            Modular text completion framework
>   dash               2.15.0        dependency            A modern list library for Emacs
>   dash-functional 2.15.0 dependency Collection of useful combinators for Emacs
> Lisp
>   direnv             1.4.0         dependency            direnv support for emacs
>
>
> The problem is "obsolete" line appears quite some distance away from
> other line which shows dash is installed.
>
> I would suggested "installed but outdated" perhaps. Or "More Recent
> Version Installed". Both a bit long.

How about "shadowed" or similar?

-- 
Basil

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Subject: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer Used"
Resent-From: Brett Gilio <brettg@HIDDEN>
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From: Brett Gilio <brettg@HIDDEN>
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Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 11:15:05 -0600
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Basil L. Contovounesios writes:

> phillip.lord@HIDDEN (Phillip Lord) writes:
>
>> Currently package.el reports packages as "Obsolete" when this is
>> probably not a good choice of word, as it is being interpreted as "no
>> longer in active development".
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2019-02/msg00070.html
>>
>> It happens when several versions of a package are installed. Consider
>> this report from M-x package-list-packages
>>
>>   dash               2.12.0        obsolete              A modern list library for Emacs
>>   eglot 1.4 incompat gnu Client for Language Server Protocol (LSP) servers
>>   kiwix              0.4.0         incompat   melpa-s... Kiwix interface and support.
>>
>>
>> Dash is showing here are obsolete because in my installation 2.15.0 is installed.
>>
>>
>>   company            0.9.9         dependency            Modular text completion framework
>>   dash               2.15.0        dependency            A modern list library for Emacs
>>   dash-functional 2.15.0 dependency Collection of useful combinators for Emacs
>> Lisp
>>   direnv             1.4.0         dependency            direnv support for emacs
>>
>>
>> The problem is "obsolete" line appears quite some distance away from
>> other line which shows dash is installed.
>>
>> I would suggested "installed but outdated" perhaps. Or "More Recent
>> Version Installed". Both a bit long.
>
> How about "shadowed" or similar?

The Guix package manager uses a term "superseded." I quite find this
term to be useful and nice.

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"Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob@HIDDEN> writes:

>
> How about "shadowed" or similar?

"superseded"?

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From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob@HIDDEN>
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Brett Gilio <brettg@HIDDEN> writes:

> Basil L. Contovounesios writes:
>
>> How about "shadowed" or similar?
>
> The Guix package manager uses a term "superseded." I quite find this
> term to be useful and nice.

SGTM.  Though if one wanted to be really pedantic I think they could
argue that a package (either installed or uninstalled) could be
superseded by another package (again regardless of whether it's
installed), whereas shadowing can only occur if both packages/versions
are installed, IIUC.

-- 
Basil

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The statement of superseded as used by Guix is that it has a reference pointer to what it is superseded by, and will either point to a different package definition of a new version of the original package.
I think as long as the terminology is clear, and what it is superseded by is iterated properly, we are in good shape.
Brett Gilio
------ Original message------From: Basil L. ContovounesiosDate: Fri, Feb 8, 2019 11:34 AMTo: Brett Gilio;Cc: 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org;Phillip Lord;Subject:bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer Used"
Brett Gilio  writes:

> Basil L. Contovounesios writes:
>
>> How about "shadowed" or similar?
>
> The Guix package manager uses a term "superseded." I quite find this
> term to be useful and nice.

SGTM.  Though if one wanted to be really pedantic I think they could
argue that a package (either installed or uninstalled) could be
superseded by another package (again regardless of whether it's
installed), whereas shadowing can only occur if both packages/versions
are installed, IIUC.

-- 
Basil




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    <div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div dir="auto">The statement of superseded as used by Guix is that it has a reference pointer to what it is superseded by, and will either point to a different package definition of a new version of the original package.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think as long as the terminology is clear, and what it is superseded by is iterated properly, we are in good shape.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Brett Gilio</div></div><div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div id="LGEmailHeader" dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">------ Original message------</div><div dir="auto"><b>From: </b>Basil L. Contovounesios<contovob@HIDDEN></contovob@HIDDEN></div><div dir="auto"><b>Date: </b>Fri, Feb 8, 2019 11:34 AM</div><div dir="auto"><b>To: </b>Brett Gilio;</div><div dir="auto"><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org">34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</a>;Phillip Lord;</div><div dir="auto"><b>Subject:</b>bug#34390: package.el say
 s "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer Used"</div><div dir="auto"><br></div></div><pre>Brett Gilio <brettg@HIDDEN> writes:

&gt; Basil L. Contovounesios writes:
&gt;
&gt;&gt; How about "shadowed" or similar?
&gt;
&gt; The Guix package manager uses a term "superseded." I quite find this
&gt; term to be useful and nice.

SGTM.  Though if one wanted to be really pedantic I think they could
argue that a package (either installed or uninstalled) could be
superseded by another package (again regardless of whether it's
installed), whereas shadowing can only occur if both packages/versions
are installed, IIUC.

-- 
Basil



</brettg@HIDDEN></pre></div>


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> The statement of superseded as used by Guix is that it has a reference
> pointer to what it is superseded by, and will either point to a different
> package definition of a new version of the original package.

Regardless if we change "obsolete" to "superseded" or something else,
I think making the word into a link/button that explains itself would be
a great improvement.


        Stefan

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Stefan Monnier writes:

>> The statement of superseded as used by Guix is that it has a reference
>> pointer to what it is superseded by, and will either point to a different
>> package definition of a new version of the original package.
>
> Regardless if we change "obsolete" to "superseded" or something else,
> I think making the word into a link/button that explains itself would be
> a great improvement.
>
>
>         Stefan

Agreed, knowing what the package definition is point to for
upgrade/replacement is a necessary step.

Brett Gilio

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Brett Gilio <brettg@HIDDEN> writes:

> Basil L. Contovounesios writes:
>
>> phillip.lord@HIDDEN (Phillip Lord) writes:
>>
>>> Currently package.el reports packages as "Obsolete" when this is
>>> probably not a good choice of word, as it is being interpreted as "no
>>> longer in active development".
>>>
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2019-02/msg00070.html
>>>
>>> It happens when several versions of a package are installed. Consider
>>> this report from M-x package-list-packages
>>>
>>>   dash               2.12.0        obsolete              A modern list library for Emacs
>>>   eglot 1.4 incompat gnu Client for Language Server Protocol (LSP) servers
>>>   kiwix              0.4.0         incompat   melpa-s... Kiwix interface and support.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dash is showing here are obsolete because in my installation 2.15.0 is installed.
>>>
>>>
>>>   company            0.9.9         dependency            Modular text completion framework
>>>   dash               2.15.0        dependency            A modern list library for Emacs
>>>   dash-functional 2.15.0 dependency Collection of useful combinators for Emacs
>>> Lisp
>>>   direnv             1.4.0         dependency            direnv support for emacs
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem is "obsolete" line appears quite some distance away from
>>> other line which shows dash is installed.
>>>
>>> I would suggested "installed but outdated" perhaps. Or "More Recent
>>> Version Installed". Both a bit long.
>>
>> How about "shadowed" or similar?

I think that's the wrong term, because it implies that it is currently unused.

> The Guix package manager uses a term "superseded." I quite find this
> term to be useful and nice.

I guess that could work, but I don't find it very user friendly.

How about "upgradable"?  That makes it clear that it's both installed
and that it can be upgraded.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Last modified: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:00:02 UTC

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