GNU bug report logs - #47529
Make quoted entities stand out more in info

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
To: "scame via Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
 the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 19:52:01 +0000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

I usually find the default colors of quoted
symbols not distinctive enough in Info (see
first attachment).

How about giving it some color? (see 2nd
attachment)

The color (firebrick) is just an example
to illustrate the difference.

What do you think? Is it better?

[bw.PNG (image/png, attachment)]

[color.PNG (image/png, attachment)]

Message #8 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
Cc: 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 09:40:22 +0300

> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2021 19:52:01 +0000
> From:  scame via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
>  the Swiss army knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
> 
> I usually find the default colors of quoted
> symbols not distinctive enough in Info (see
> first attachment).
> 
> How about giving it some color? (see 2nd
> attachment)

It's a face, and you can customize it if you want.

Message #11 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 07:32:31 +0000

>
> It's a face, and you can customize it if you want.

Obviously I can and I do, but in this bug it's about
making  the out of the box experience more appealing.

Message #14 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
Cc: 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 10:50:49 +0300

> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 07:32:31 +0000
> From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
> Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> >
> > It's a face, and you can customize it if you want.
> 
> Obviously I can and I do, but in this bug it's about
> making  the out of the box experience more appealing.

Oh, so you would like to change that face's defaults?  Then my
personal take on this is that (assuming we want to use a non-default
color in this case) the color you propose is too prominent.

Message #17 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 07:54:47 +0000

>
> Oh, so you would like to change that face's defaults? Then my
> personal take on this is that (assuming we want to use a non-default
> color in this case) the color you propose is too prominent.

That color was just an example to show the difference.

BTW, how are these things decided? What is the process?

What if, for example, several possible colors are suggested
for this and one has to be chosen?

Who decides? Is there a vote for the most popular choice?

Message #20 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
Cc: 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 11:08:17 +0300

> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 07:54:47 +0000
> From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
> Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> > Oh, so you would like to change that face's defaults? Then my
> > personal take on this is that (assuming we want to use a non-default
> > color in this case) the color you propose is too prominent.
> 
> That color was just an example to show the difference.

Sure, but to get this moving in some practical direction, you (or
someone else) will have to come up with a color that will fly with
enough people to justify the change in the default definition of the
face.

> BTW, how are these things decided? What is the process?

By a lot of bikeshedding, I'm afraid.  Which is why I personally
consider this kind of discussion a big waste of time, when everyone
can customize the face to their liking.  YMMV, of course.

Message #23 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 08:30:33 +0000

>
> By a lot of bikeshedding, I'm afraid. Which is why I personally
> consider this kind of discussion a big waste of time, when everyone
> can customize the face to their liking. YMMV, of course.

True, but first impression matters. Emacs' default appearance is like
it's stuck in the 80s. Emacs is from the 70s, but it doesn't mean it
can't have an appealing, polished default look.

People coming from other tools like VSCode or IntelliJ often put off
by the face Emacs shows them the first time. Of course, we can say
those who judge by first appearance are not worthy to enter the
sanctuary of Emacs, but if can show a prettier face (subjective)
then maybe less people are turned away before giving emacs a serious
try.

Message #26 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
Cc: 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 11:54:58 +0300

> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 08:30:33 +0000
> From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
> Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> True, but first impression matters. Emacs' default appearance is like
> it's stuck in the 80s. Emacs is from the 70s, but it doesn't mean it
> can't have an appealing, polished default look.
> 
> People coming from other tools like VSCode or IntelliJ often put off
> by the face Emacs shows them the first time.

Emacs is unlike those other tools, in that it's infinitely more
customizable than any of them.  It is also unique in that its
development is not hierarchical, and therefore personal UI preferences
get in the way of changing the defaults according to unilateral
decisions of a single manager.  Enough said.

> if can show a prettier face (subjective) then maybe less people are
> turned away before giving emacs a serious try.

I'm skeptical because the likes of Spacemacs and Doom Emacs already
exist to fill that niche.  Given the time it typically takes us to
change the defaults, by the time we do it, those new defaults are
already "stuck in" whatever previous decade you fancy for the kind of
unflattering language people tend to use in these cases.

Message #29 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>, 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 12:53:30 -0400

This has come up several times over the years.
It never goes anywhere. Eg six-year old open reports:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/20721
https://debbugs.gnu.org/18077 

Message #32 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>,
 "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in
 info
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2021 17:07:59 +0000

> This has come up several times over the years.
> It never goes anywhere. Eg six-year old open reports:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://debbugs.gnu.org/20721__;!!GqivPVa7Brio!NL
> Gc7PBOr5pJdigXPipQEbGpL4AeTn3gDgkFGadjZOnV49HmdKDSCasujFhT1zEs$
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://debbugs.gnu.org/18077__;!!GqivPVa7Brio!NL
> Gc7PBOr5pJdigXPipQEbGpL4AeTn3gDgkFGadjZOnV49HmdKDSCasujHT9fwTo$

Yup.

FWIW, in info+.el I use this for quoted names:

(defface info-quoted-name               ; For '...' and `...'
  ;; But see Emacs bug #44316.  If that gets fixed then
  ;; maybe revisit this default definition somehow.
  '((((background dark))
     (:inherit info-fixed-pitch :foreground "#6B6BFFFF2C2C")) ; ~ bright green
    (((background light))
     (:inherit info-fixed-pitch :foreground "DarkViolet"))
    (t (:foreground "yellow")))
  "Face for quoted names ('...' or `...') in `info'."
  :group 'Info-Plus :group 'faces)

And this is `info-fixed-pitch', which `info-quoted-name' inherits from:

(defface info-fixed-pitch
  `((t (:inherit fixed-pitch
                 ,@(let ((family
                          (catch 'info-fixed-pitch
                            (dolist (fam  info-good-fixed-pitch-font-families)
                              (when (member fam (font-family-list))
                                (throw 'info-fixed-pitch fam))))))
                     (and family `(:family ,family))))))
  "Fixed-pitch face for Info.
The default value inherits from face `fixed-pitch'.  And if you have a
font family listed in variable `info-good-fixed-pitch-font-families',
then the face attributes of the first one you have listed there are
merged with those of face `fixed-pitch'.

By default, face `info-fixed-pitch' is inherited by faces
`info-custom-delimited',`info-double-quoted-name',
`info-isolated-quote', `info-quoted-name', `info-reference-item', and
`info-string'."
  :group 'Info-Plus :group 'faces)

Message #35 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 18:41:10 +0000

>
> I'm skeptical because the likes of Spacemacs and Doom Emacs already
> exist to fill that niche.

Are those variants recommended on the Gnu Emacs homepage? If not
then barebones Emacs should also offer an appealing experience
in case a new user goes there from google.

> Given the time it typically takes us to
> change the defaults, by the time we do it, those new defaults are
> already "stuck in" whatever previous decade you fancy for the kind of
> unflattering language people tend to use in these cases.

The project should just ask a graphical designer from an other
free software project to create a pleasant default theme for
Emacs (including the default colors, customize, info, etc.)

It is not a task for engineers, so it should be done by somebody
who's qualified to do this job.

Message #38 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
Cc: 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 21:57:43 +0300

> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 18:41:10 +0000
> From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
> Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> > I'm skeptical because the likes of Spacemacs and Doom Emacs already
> > exist to fill that niche.
> 
> Are those variants recommended on the Gnu Emacs homepage?

Does it matter?  You are seriously suggesting that people are
following our recommendations, and our recommendations only?

> If not then barebones Emacs should also offer an appealing
> experience in case a new user goes there from google.

We'd love to, but I don't think we can, given our relatively slow
release cycle and the low rate of changing long-standing defaults.

Message #41 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
Cc: 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 21:59:36 +0300

> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 18:41:10 +0000
> From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
> Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> > Given the time it typically takes us to
> > change the defaults, by the time we do it, those new defaults are
> > already "stuck in" whatever previous decade you fancy for the kind of
> > unflattering language people tend to use in these cases.
> 
> The project should just ask a graphical designer from an other
> free software project to create a pleasant default theme for
> Emacs (including the default colors, customize, info, etc.)
> 
> It is not a task for engineers, so it should be done by somebody
> who's qualified to do this job.

You assume that such a person will come up with something that will be
accepted by others much easier and faster?

Message #44 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 19:07:49 +0000

>
> You assume that such a person will come up with something that will be
> accepted by others much easier and faster?

If the designer knows his stuff then coming up with a pleasant default
theme is not hard for him. As for acceptance the engineers should accept
the result without much fuss if they tasked the designer with creating the
design in the first place.

This should be no problem for seasoned users, because they don't have to
use the default, they can set their own colors as you pointed out earlier.

And new users then could see appealing defaults when they first encounter
emacs.

Message #47 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
Cc: 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 22:11:33 +0300

> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2021 19:07:49 +0000
> From: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>
> Cc: "47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> > You assume that such a person will come up with something that will be
> > accepted by others much easier and faster?
> 
> If the designer knows his stuff then coming up with a pleasant default
> theme is not hard for him. As for acceptance the engineers should accept
> the result without much fuss if they tasked the designer with creating the
> design in the first place.

Having some experience working with graphical designers, I envy your
optimism.

Message #50 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 18:58:43 -0500

forcemerge 20721 47529
thanks

Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> writes:

> This has come up several times over the years.
> It never goes anywhere. Eg six-year old open reports:
> https://debbugs.gnu.org/20721

Seems like the same issue, so I am merging them now.

> https://debbugs.gnu.org/18077

This might be fixed by commit 36906806cc.  I asked that question in the
bug thread.

Message #55 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: rgm <at> gnu.org, 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, laszlomail <at> protonmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 10:36:38 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 18:58:43 -0500
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, scame <laszlomail <at> protonmail.com>, 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > This has come up several times over the years.
> > It never goes anywhere. Eg six-year old open reports:
> > https://debbugs.gnu.org/20721
> 
> Seems like the same issue, so I am merging them now.

I don't even understand what bug#20721 is about anymore (the first
part, regarding using a newer Texinfo, was done long ago).

Message #58 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: rgm <at> gnu.org, 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, laszlomail <at> protonmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 03:50:16 -0500

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> > This has come up several times over the years.
>> > It never goes anywhere. Eg six-year old open reports:
>> > https://debbugs.gnu.org/20721
>>
>> Seems like the same issue, so I am merging them now.
>
> I don't even understand what bug#20721 is about anymore (the first
> part, regarding using a newer Texinfo, was done long ago).

From the original bug report:

    Summary: I want the Info buffer to be colorized, so that I have enough
    visual clues to skim it quickly.  I find the Emacs provided default VERY
    disconcerting.

Message #61 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: rgm <at> gnu.org, 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, laszlomail <at> protonmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 14:00:22 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 03:50:16 -0500
> Cc: rgm <at> gnu.org, laszlomail <at> protonmail.com, 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > I don't even understand what bug#20721 is about anymore (the first
> > part, regarding using a newer Texinfo, was done long ago).
> 
> >From the original bug report:
> 
>     Summary: I want the Info buffer to be colorized, so that I have enough
>     visual clues to skim it quickly.  I find the Emacs provided default VERY
>     disconcerting.

But the discussion is about something very different.

Message #64 received at 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: rgm <at> gnu.org, 47529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>,
 laszlomail <at> protonmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#47529: Make quoted entities stand out more in info
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2022 15:49:03 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> > I don't even understand what bug#20721 is about anymore (the first
>> > part, regarding using a newer Texinfo, was done long ago).
>> 
>> >From the original bug report:
>> 
>>     Summary: I want the Info buffer to be colorized, so that I have enough
>>     visual clues to skim it quickly.  I find the Emacs provided default VERY
>>     disconcerting.
>
> But the discussion is about something very different.

Re-skimming this bug report, it seems that most of it's about something
else, and the original issue (about changing default faces) I don't
think we actually want to do anything about, so I'm closing this bug
report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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