GNU logs - #51490, boring messages

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Subject: bug#51490: Show an indicator when Emacs is busy somewhere in the Emacs window
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Severity: wishlist

(This is a follow-up to Bug#19776.)

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> I was talking about showing something in the actual Emacs window, not
>> just changing the mouse pointer.  The mouse pointer can change also when
>> some program has just crashed, so users won't necessarily take this as a
>> sign that "everything is okay, just give us a minute and we'll be back".
>
> And there's no hourglass pointer in terminal Emacs (which apparently is
> almost as popular as GUI Emacs for some reason), so perhaps it's worth
> having a spinning thing somewhere.  In the mode line, for instance.
>
> However, if we want that, perhaps it shouldn't be tied to
> with-delayed-message, but work exactly like the hourglass -- i.e., start
> spinning whenever Emacs is busy for a while.
>
> I'm not at all sure whether there'd be any negative repercussions to
> spinning a glyph in the mode line area (for instance -- what about if
> you're running over a slow ssh connection?), but perhaps it's worth
> exploring and see how goes?

Let's continue discussing this as a new bug.

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From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#51490: Acknowledgement (Show an indicator when Emacs is busy
 somewhere in the Emacs window)
Message-ID: <handler.51490.B.163553036822571.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
References: <CADwFkmko4SXz_XuHENd5QK=ZY0zr+drL=bo6f4sZQU-ZKgE4TQ@HIDDEN>
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Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2021 18:00:02 +0000

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Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#51490: Show an indicator when Emacs is busy somewhere in the Emacs window
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
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From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2021 14:40:02 +0200
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 (Stefan Kangas's message of "Fri, 29 Oct 2021 10:59:21 -0700")
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Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN> writes:

>> I'm not at all sure whether there'd be any negative repercussions to
>> spinning a glyph in the mode line area (for instance -- what about if
>> you're running over a slow ssh connection?), but perhaps it's worth
>> exploring and see how goes?
>
> Let's continue discussing this as a new bug.

I wonder whether this could be implemented by modifying the glyphs in
the mode line directly instead of going through the entire mode line
machinery (for efficiency).  I was thinking we'd designate (say) the
first (or last) displayed position on the mode line as "the spinner"
(and restore the previous glyph there after finishing spinning, of
course).

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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Subject: bug#51490: Show an indicator when Emacs is busy somewhere in the Emacs window
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From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87a6iqr8il.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sat,
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Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 22:16:48 +0200
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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

>>> I'm not at all sure whether there'd be any negative repercussions to
>>> spinning a glyph in the mode line area (for instance -- what about if
>>> you're running over a slow ssh connection?), but perhaps it's worth
>>> exploring and see how goes?
>>
>> Let's continue discussing this as a new bug.
>
> I wonder whether this could be implemented by modifying the glyphs in
> the mode line directly instead of going through the entire mode line
> machinery (for efficiency).  I was thinking we'd designate (say) the
> first (or last) displayed position on the mode line as "the spinner"
> (and restore the previous glyph there after finishing spinning, of
> course).

Eli, does this seem like feasible approach to you?

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> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 51490 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, "'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2022 22:16:48 +0200
> 
> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >>> I'm not at all sure whether there'd be any negative repercussions to
> >>> spinning a glyph in the mode line area (for instance -- what about if
> >>> you're running over a slow ssh connection?), but perhaps it's worth
> >>> exploring and see how goes?
> >>
> >> Let's continue discussing this as a new bug.
> >
> > I wonder whether this could be implemented by modifying the glyphs in
> > the mode line directly instead of going through the entire mode line
> > machinery (for efficiency).  I was thinking we'd designate (say) the
> > first (or last) displayed position on the mode line as "the spinner"
> > (and restore the previous glyph there after finishing spinning, of
> > course).
> 
> Eli, does this seem like feasible approach to you?

I'm not sure I understand the problem and the proposed solution.  Are
we talking about having a spinning character, like | / - \, in the
mode lines of a window on TTY frames?  If so, what are you trying to
save by "modifying the glyphs directly", and why do you think doing so
will produce some savings, as opposed to just update the mode line
normally?

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 Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm not sure I
 understand
 the problem and the proposed solution. Are > we talking about having a
 spinning
 character, like | / - \, in the > mode lines of a window on TTY frames? 
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> I'm not sure I understand the problem and the proposed solution.  Are
> we talking about having a spinning character, like | / - \, in the
> mode lines of a window on TTY frames?

Yes -- but not just on TTY frames, but on GUI frames, too (for those
that want that).

> If so, what are you trying to save by "modifying the glyphs directly",
> and why do you think doing so will produce some savings, as opposed to
> just update the mode line normally?

Because this will be happening from an alarm while Lisp code is running,
and we can't run other Lisp code while that is happening.  So we have to
modify the mode line directly from the C function called by the alarm, I
think?

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> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
> Cc: stefan@HIDDEN,  51490 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 13:06:25 +0200
> 
> > If so, what are you trying to save by "modifying the glyphs directly",
> > and why do you think doing so will produce some savings, as opposed to
> > just update the mode line normally?
> 
> Because this will be happening from an alarm while Lisp code is running,
> and we can't run other Lisp code while that is happening.

Mode line is drawn in C, not in Lisp.

And if the problem is that we cannot run the display code, either,
then how would it help to poke the glyph?  It won't be shown on the
glass, because redisplay cannot run.  Right?  Or what am I missing?

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 Content preview:  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Mode line is drawn
 in C, not in Lisp. > > And if the problem is that we cannot run the display
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> Mode line is drawn in C, not in Lisp.
>
> And if the problem is that we cannot run the display code, either,
> then how would it help to poke the glyph?  It won't be shown on the
> glass, because redisplay cannot run.  Right?  Or what am I missing?

Redisplay can run, but we can't run any Lisp code, and the normal
formatting of a mode line does (potentially) run lots of Lisp code,
doesn't it?

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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> Mode line is drawn in C, not in Lisp.
>>
>> And if the problem is that we cannot run the display code, either,
>> then how would it help to poke the glyph?  It won't be shown on the
>> glass, because redisplay cannot run.  Right?  Or what am I missing?
>
> Redisplay can run, but we can't run any Lisp code, and the normal
> formatting of a mode line does (potentially) run lots of Lisp code,
> doesn't it?

BTW, I think one goal here should be to optionally replace the glyph
with a sequence of images/icons (preferably SVG files).

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
> Cc: stefan@HIDDEN,  51490 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:01:13 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > Mode line is drawn in C, not in Lisp.
> >
> > And if the problem is that we cannot run the display code, either,
> > then how would it help to poke the glyph?  It won't be shown on the
> > glass, because redisplay cannot run.  Right?  Or what am I missing?
> 
> Redisplay can run, but we can't run any Lisp code, and the normal
> formatting of a mode line does (potentially) run lots of Lisp code,
> doesn't it?

That's true, but if Lisp cannot run, neither can redisplay.  They both
access the internal Emacs state: buffers, variables, etc.  Even to
replace a single glyph, you'd need to access faces, right?

Also, poking a single glyph on a GUI frame is unsafe, because no one
can be sure the new glyph will have the same metrics as the old one.

So I think if we want some kind of feature that displays progress
indicator while Emacs is busy, we'd need to develop it.
hourglass-cursor just raises a flag and does it only once, so it can
run from an atimer.  Anything more complex will probably need another
Lisp thread, and calls to synchronization functions (sit-for,
thread-yield, etc.) from the main thread.  Or something.

Or maybe we can run some async subprocess which will display some
animation?

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> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 05:34:51 -0700
> Cc: 51490 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >
> >> Mode line is drawn in C, not in Lisp.
> >>
> >> And if the problem is that we cannot run the display code, either,
> >> then how would it help to poke the glyph?  It won't be shown on the
> >> glass, because redisplay cannot run.  Right?  Or what am I missing?
> >
> > Redisplay can run, but we can't run any Lisp code, and the normal
> > formatting of a mode line does (potentially) run lots of Lisp code,
> > doesn't it?
> 
> BTW, I think one goal here should be to optionally replace the glyph
> with a sequence of images/icons (preferably SVG files).

These are also (special kinds of) glyphs.

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Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 15:32:39 +0200
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 Content preview:  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > That's true, but if
 Lisp cannot run, neither can redisplay. They both > access the internal Emacs
 state: buffers, variables, etc. Even to > replace a single glyph, you'd need
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> That's true, but if Lisp cannot run, neither can redisplay.  They both
> access the internal Emacs state: buffers, variables, etc.  Even to
> replace a single glyph, you'd need to access faces, right?

I'm not sure that we have to?  That's why I wondered whether we could
somehow get away with just altering the glyph matrix...

> Also, poking a single glyph on a GUI frame is unsafe, because no one
> can be sure the new glyph will have the same metrics as the old one.

I was thinking way more primitive than that -- just altering the
pixelish data on some level.  I.e., I wouldn't want to display the
characters | \ etc, but instead some pre-calculated pixel data.

But like I said, I'm not sure whether even that is feasible...

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> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
> Cc: stefan@HIDDEN,  51490 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 15:32:39 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > That's true, but if Lisp cannot run, neither can redisplay.  They both
> > access the internal Emacs state: buffers, variables, etc.  Even to
> > replace a single glyph, you'd need to access faces, right?
> 
> I'm not sure that we have to?  That's why I wondered whether we could
> somehow get away with just altering the glyph matrix...

We barely get away with that on TTY frames (that's how TTY menus are
implemented).  On GUI frames, I don't think it's feasible, not with
the code we have now.

As for not accessing any Lisp data: do you really believe our users
will let us deprive them of even the minimal customization
capabilities, like determining the face of this indicator and how it
generally looks?  I sincerely doubt that.

> > Also, poking a single glyph on a GUI frame is unsafe, because no one
> > can be sure the new glyph will have the same metrics as the old one.
> 
> I was thinking way more primitive than that -- just altering the
> pixelish data on some level.  I.e., I wouldn't want to display the
> characters | \ etc, but instead some pre-calculated pixel data.

We don't write pixels to the glass, we call GUI APIs to do that.

Last modified: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:15:01 UTC

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