GNU logs - #52063, boring messages

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:57:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B.1637693800582 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
To: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:56:20 +0200
Message-Id: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Precedence: list
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>

To reproduce:

  . emacs -Q
  . Type into *scratch:

    (add-hook 'mail-mode-hook
	      #'(lambda () (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p
			         'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)))

  . Evaluate the above expression with "C-x C-e"
  . Type into *scratch*:

    mail-mode-hook C-j

  . The result:

     ((closure (t) nil (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)))

Why are we present a simple lambda as a closure? why confuse users
with something tricky instead of showing the lambda-form the user
typed?

In GNU Emacs 28.0.60 (build 156, i686-pc-mingw32)
 of 2021-11-23 built on HOME-C4E4A596F7
Repository revision: d791cd556d622accb935e4dd230023c485d1e07a
Repository branch: emacs-28
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
System Description: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 3 (v5.1.0.2600)

Configured using:
 'configure -C --prefix=/d/usr --with-wide-int --with-modules
 --enable-checking=yes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=-O0 -gdwarf-4 -g3''

Configured features:
ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NOTIFY
W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS XPM
ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: ENU
  locale-coding-system: cp1255

Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  indent-tabs-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr warnings emacsbug message rmc puny dired
dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config
gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core
cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache json map text-property-search
time-date subr-x seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv mm-decode
mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader
cl-loaddefs cl-lib sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util
mail-prsvr mail-utils dabbrev iso-transl tooltip eldoc paren electric
uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel dos-w32
ls-lisp disp-table term/w32-win w32-win w32-vars term/common-win
tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace
newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar
rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock
font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic
cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao
korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript
charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray
cl-preloaded nadvice button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files
window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages
mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads w32notify
w32 lcms2 multi-tty make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 57044 6934)
 (symbols 48 7874 2)
 (strings 16 21867 2892)
 (string-bytes 1 643712)
 (vectors 16 12975)
 (vector-slots 8 175379 9690)
 (floats 8 28 53)
 (intervals 40 316 141)
 (buffers 888 12))

Message sent:

Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#52063: Acknowledgement (28.0.60; Confusing presentation of
 lambda)
Message-ID: <handler.52063.B.1637693800582.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN>
X-Gnu-PR-Message: ack 52063
X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs
Reply-To: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:57:02 +0000

Thank you for filing a new bug report with debbugs.gnu.org.

This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message
has been received.

Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other
interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN

If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please
send it to 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org.

Please do not send mail to help-debbugs@HIDDEN unless you wish
to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

--=20
52063: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D52063
GNU Bug Tracking System
Contact help-debbugs@HIDDEN with problems

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:36:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377393422426 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:35:30 +0100
In-Reply-To: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 23 Nov
 2021 20:56:20 +0200")
Message-ID: <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Precedence: list
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>   . The result:
>
>      ((closure (t) nil (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)))
>
> Why are we present a simple lambda as a closure? why confuse users
> with something tricky instead of showing the lambda-form the user
> typed?

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.  The key is bound to a
closure, so that's what Emacs is showing.  (If you switch
lexical-binding off in *scratch* it won't be.)

Do you mean that it shouldn't be a closure if the environment is just t?
I'm not sure what the repercussions of that would be.  Stefan?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:50:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163775814326505 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:48:45 +0200
Message-Id: <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 
 24 Nov 2021 08:35:30 +0100)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
Precedence: list
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:35:30 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >   . The result:
> >
> >      ((closure (t) nil (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)))
> >
> > Why are we present a simple lambda as a closure? why confuse users
> > with something tricky instead of showing the lambda-form the user
> > typed?
> 
> I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.  The key is bound to a
> closure

Which key?  I evaluated an add-hook expression.

What I want to see is my lambda, the one I put in the hook.

> (If you switch lexical-binding off in *scratch* it won't be.)

I doubt that we want to tell users to switch off lexical-binding to
see reasonably-formatted results from evaluation.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:53:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163775833426829 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163775833426829
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:53:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 12:52:14 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53446 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mprl0-0006yf-Jq
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:52:14 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56550)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mprkx-0006yD-44
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:52:13 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=TDNJhkB9Eif5UtwMlSprXAJeHMscCjrmM8H61BT7sok=; b=A/VtKDGq1dBjxeOZ1j8oenZSWf
 pA07X8SVdumXdAIwR16Z4sNt/g5hgHaRHMrcF9rsJMg5/sJ6sw786AL5GhwHAHSrMF6WbroEzwZNJ
 rdsKc95YKH7M21LMknINfzfEfuVLd7QvSupahdK4AjADwYtpfe0Wvikerfx8Kx0SFryA=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mprkm-0001iM-Sn; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:52:03 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAALVBMVEUlJSM1MzEhIB4f
 Hx0aGhlRTUlxamNiXFcMDQ1BPjqflYuNhHxEQT2EfHT///9WePL3AAAAAWJLR0QOb70wTwAAAAd0
 SU1FB+ULGAwyOdNPS+0AAAFaSURBVDjLY2AQRAeMggJAQQYiAJOSkhKDAhYJoDizshJWLQpMSgpw
 LQi9jkxAXUyYZjEaAiUUlDDNcgw0cHEBOUABxSglBpZUJ/F0FiYmNAkGJvZw0TL2EAYFoBNQjUoV
 S28NmemALszgFiFVKlrqycSAIbFcOjBQtAAogeYutgmhohMiKh0U4LZDAMtxx9LC7SGVDkCjUCSY
 xMoTC8vSStBCAwgUV6cUTk0MAStCtWTp9FDBgATMoPJcyVseGprqgCHhul29emtqGBaJVPFd265i
 kwiYfT3tehiG1QyeJeFpZbPCQfGIFk8lB2vLpUIxTGJgChRIrV47FdMOZlHHk2mBgVh0uEq6FjJO
 wfQ4g0IA60ROBqzpShCYaLEBRgbs4kCAS4IRpwSpJlERgPINVjdJiuDyOi6TaO9YHD5QAgEoE14G
 KKm4oAKIN1lgXI+ODheXFgjbgYEBAAcTR5MLCXBaAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTEx
 LTI0VDEyOjUwOjU3KzAwOjAwqH+t+QAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMS0yNFQxMjo1
 MDo1NyswMDowMNkiFUUAAAAASUVORK5CYII=
X-Now-Playing: Richard Horowitz's _Eros in Arabia_: "Tamara Alexa
 Inter-Dimensional Travel Agent"
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:51:56 +0100
In-Reply-To: <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 14:48:45 +0200")
Message-ID: <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview:  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> I'm not sure what
 you're suggesting here. The key is bound to a >> closure > > Which key? I
 evaluated an add-hook expression. I meant the hook. 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.  The key is bound to a
>> closure
>
> Which key?  I evaluated an add-hook expression.

I meant the hook.

> What I want to see is my lambda, the one I put in the hook.

But you put a closure on your hook, not the lambda.

(lambda () 1)
=> (closure (t) nil 1)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:17:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163775976229192 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163775976229192
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:17:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 13:16:02 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53486 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mps81-0007aa-P3
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:16:02 -0500
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41376)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mps7y-0007aD-1r
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:16:00 -0500
Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=57790 helo=fencepost.gnu.org)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mps7o-0006Ho-SM; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:15:50 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=feFLW3wHOGZFaq4kdzWdUkdqlz2CvG0P4MUDLmhCxVI=; b=P+ereBOzylSI
 9lNN9Cymj9qs7dCh8iaIzQdpOlVUPK4D9dXNX+htZtNFcK2NUBQU3VH4SFb3VO8NEtYHBMX811G3d
 TZSOAs7DFqMh2yqxm3hEr8yDGElBxmTrlv+K06C/t1FpjsEpGqjmu++rhKi/fSzWgJUok1Hq2Y8PZ
 mnrF7lFXqMjVDU9mo2JyoR7TYvOlIsmw+Hxw8Xdas1JEzlytsGLXsOaOCCgh8ppC2onWVjBWPC6A4
 5loXwKR9jtvKp2PnSu9bbPAW64OHiDbyTUgWLvQzZBZvhKLD2JJltR+kKrK29o96ok5rlg+xwPy4m
 TxA5ZAjo5Ajzn2uSDSbBkw==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3759 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mps7o-0008Tw-I6; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:15:48 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:15:47 +0200
Message-Id: <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 
 24 Nov 2021 13:51:56 +0100)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  monnier@HIDDEN
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:51:56 +0100
> 
> > What I want to see is my lambda, the one I put in the hook.
> 
> But you put a closure on your hook, not the lambda.
> 
> (lambda () 1)
> => (closure (t) nil 1)

Where do you see something like the above in my recipe?  The recipe
was:

    (add-hook 'mail-mode-hook
	      #'(lambda () (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p
			         'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)))

AFAIU, this adds a function to the hook.  And the function is not a
constant 1, it has some code.

And please bear with me, I'm NOT teasing Emacs.  I'm REALLY confused
here.  It's a good-faith bug report about confusion.  I added an
anonymous function to the hook, but Emacs says I added a closure.
WTF?

Btw, this comes from my ~/.emacs, so the problem is not limited to
evaluation in *scratch*.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:32:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163776069730721 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163776069730721
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:32:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 13:31:37 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53515 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpsN7-0007zR-Cm
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:31:37 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56960)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mpsN5-0007zC-Rd
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:31:36 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=Zyl6mnko4iaYZDcH+woOOiNgLiEGOriaCX4LV3w0QaM=; b=gGQpJC3PhfEqTqI3SSodmsKS8d
 kTywbtZpcKvGGawXoISBUwG5OhGgt4fvwxHFsEcn6lcvu/5QYDbRc0JrP/S/z5o1PRovNAXapn8ep
 84RgOR3Ipu5ZfzD96N5hBBz2dbCNxkP0viumRIPAG+FeSrV12qktDPlSoz7Hshds7kUk=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpsMv-00021J-9d; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:31:28 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEVAPSuUbELl2LDA
 rET///9X7VW+AAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGA0bOg/C74sAAAF8SURBVDjLdVPJgcQw
 CDNJA7ZpYAwNGOi/twUf2WQ3w2MOKQhxJKXXKOkbDu8E5Ph4wRN8viXIlZFvxMDfa9d3JfjiFtLR
 nwjKr9mHdCkDysBPHGUwfxsDQM4hczyVoIGZ9pSX3hXHpxITl0J/mjuYSCoVJXrO6SBqgNTI4x+h
 NGMVKW0UJ1kw6dSCMp8gaEgjR6cW2PzWKsYPLW27COMiJoKrFrFZ0SHGj7lXMzbBwfT73E/zISZv
 0kPsnsIxjDYYXXMBH1xOWOKXJhfjvgmPBP7vQO3hb0uVuT2witrO8HURUTghE1YOLdpKGJayT8FE
 oteLKOZMBm2RCZfUIMxyqm7HF89rKLAI8e57mKhVNo5BWFc/ITd9iiyhiZuQGToBH7xMRSizdhw7
 gnttI2WVqHEiblc7Rdu8Ukt3LRzEuGu7S/WiRm1AS6pMX1nJxcamy97taBGI8zkJuN6FII4YRJ63
 cbsG8J3GCf570VCuo32G+hG8vsbkhP5K/QBJST3yJYtE6gAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAy
 MS0xMS0yNFQxMzoyNzo1OCswMDowMEhGCm8AAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMTEtMjRU
 MTM6Mjc6NTgrMDA6MDA5G7LTAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC
X-Now-Playing: David Bowie's _Brilliant Live Adventures (4): Look At The
 Moon! (live Phoenix Festival 97) (1)_: "The Jean Genie"
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:31:22 +0100
In-Reply-To: <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 15:15:47 +0200")
Message-ID: <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> (lambda () 1) >> =>
 (closure (t) nil 1) > > Where do you see something like the above in my
 recipe? The recipe > was: If you put 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> (lambda () 1)
>> => (closure (t) nil 1)
>
> Where do you see something like the above in my recipe?  The recipe
> was:

If you put

(lambda () 1)

into *scratch* and then `C-u C-x C-e' it'll spit put

(closure (t) nil 1)

Because that's what that form evaluates to in lexically bound buffers.
`lambda' is no longer self-evaluating, and hasn't been for a few years.

(But I guess it's pretty recent that *scratch* defaults to lexical.)

And it's the same with

(lambda ()
  (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p
	'mail-mode-flyspell-verify))

of course.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:39:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377647304538 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377647304538
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:39:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 14:38:50 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53584 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mptQA-0001B7-91
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:38:50 -0500
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39526)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mptQ7-0001At-4F
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:38:49 -0500
Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=60480 helo=fencepost.gnu.org)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mptQ1-0007jq-OH; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:38:41 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=m8x0XnM6tG3lCR9XsInAx22mgfs3oty32ePgUWKVz5Y=; b=k2DmKgaXffLd
 E/Qdk0oQ04x2no8Kh3nKQxMzG4HeYWV7a9kzqZLMdMExPuT5Axsdsggxkv/71r3e0W1mU47LBaYFo
 VOW4A0uWI2/XE7SMG0B5iG0jKUv/+c+g3liHLPQUN1yX5RfudIUspOs8glXnWa2QzpyT2IbOHbX9F
 N8xCTlc2Ms7GUm+OC51ZRPbY/L1OOLNJEWn0J4AeeSdLnFxPZhmEA939tkzNBlVdVBTTMLQuJG/gc
 3raSiB22afGpthi9aEA6nPVJ+wCJ3BkBVtiDyhr2iDNJreohBpbHW/n8HS1/3VivfzcA6iZRSAty8
 ViNCCiSYTSF3fsaOL5zm3Q==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1051 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mptQ1-0005ea-Eg; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:38:41 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:38:39 +0200
Message-Id: <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 
 24 Nov 2021 14:31:22 +0100)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  monnier@HIDDEN
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:31:22 +0100
> 
> If you put
> 
> (lambda () 1)
> 
> into *scratch* and then `C-u C-x C-e' it'll spit put
> 
> (closure (t) nil 1)
> 
> Because that's what that form evaluates to in lexically bound buffers.
> `lambda' is no longer self-evaluating, and hasn't been for a few years.
> 
> (But I guess it's pretty recent that *scratch* defaults to lexical.)
> 
> And it's the same with
> 
> (lambda ()
>   (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p
> 	'mail-mode-flyspell-verify))
> 
> of course.

I'm asking why we are doing this.  IT IS CONFUSING!!!

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:22:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163777091923981 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163777091923981
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:22:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 16:21:59 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54777 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpv1z-0006Ej-8h
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:21:59 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:58538)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mpv1w-0006ET-83
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:21:57 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=zHBiKVp81XWiguAOhwqRqxYpkLkAAUFLu59GCxLiwWQ=; b=LTcMqMITGDGEsalgzuTMdk6pHR
 Sf2/U1tZAaQoMq8KLoJox/HmxMVQHIWN/1VfFCXLvZmQqboXhlepkHC4+ks5ItzPhtQbyeC0jUBhA
 3+V+LsKZYAD8fJ04EteMOrME2t75dQ1ZophfrAomu1/2QfRQ6qMEYSbLTOstvpRpbc5A=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpv1l-0003NC-N3; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:48 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAElBMVEXJyMayr7OWlKBX
 V2P28xr///9HRQ2EAAAAAWJLR0QF+G/pxwAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGA8LEwQ2sdgAAAG0SURBVDjLrZPr
 deQwCIWFtwHADRipgYzoYE/6r2kvV35McpJ/y5mxZX1CvFu7RMXMVM+vrb2JgJrhKVbrc88oahJc
 eN1B5H12SuI/C0isS2szYsFOUCqqVhRXrCvdsYsteCMqTeyUEKfReqjIZR+u2dZON8q9S0HpFZey
 vt6EQCsi+w5g25AOpdqjWBpCh+Xe1cqDNw/4yR9UgmoVz51E7AB5WHgxebIrfuCh1geve0v7HqUX
 e97ZvVSYLSGAPj/krVp7hsDJpx4MHu/McD+vKtfX22A7P+qUPxYq9CZb5utLH+hKraK0syokzRY5
 Tq25ZyrbZx3c4mynHJnHA2yfKvQgIVPuQtmKl2HMnMjyfmugA2ox8gBoMp6Oseoqz/zY42iSdCWu
 giK8MbeM9ie/1Xpkz8gJmzeIar8OlyrEGASXEQ+HQskFgl1A7gR9zGZ3w+JAh3WCPphitADOR8cb
 YNSgDLaBEZh3wJzj5QSqZyRRg2P5Gq/uAOw7GudIGXKFeQKgM6UgNWHlVa+ACtTi0uBwcvVMMpLo
 lcX+qnT66o2ouULgYGNN7d4+f5a/v4HP/wj+AQY+Z1k/V1ZPAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAy
 MDIxLTExLTI0VDE1OjExOjE5KzAwOjAwXmLGugAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMS0y
 NFQxNToxMToxOSswMDowMC8/fgYAAAAASUVORK5CYII=
X-Now-Playing: DJ Rupture's _Curiosity Slowdown_: "Curiosity Slowdown (part 2)"
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:43 +0100
In-Reply-To: <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 16:38:39 +0200")
Message-ID: <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm asking why we are
 doing this. IT IS CONFUSING!!! I think it would be more confusing to have
 some lambdas be lambdas and some be closures. But it would certainly be
 possible
 to make the closures that have no bindings into lambdas again. 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

> I'm asking why we are doing this.  IT IS CONFUSING!!!

I think it would be more confusing to have some lambdas be lambdas and
some be closures.  But it would certainly be possible to make the
closures that have no bindings into lambdas again.

Take this example:

(setq foo
      (lambda (a)
	(lambda ()
	  (+ a 2))))

(funcall (funcall foo 1))

If we eval-ed `foo' to a lambda here, the funcall would signal an error.

That is, I don't find it confusing -- I find it to be consistent.
Somebody that works in a lexically-bound Lisp has to deal with closures
sooner or later, so special-casing some bits seems counter-productive to
me.  But perhaps others have other opinions here?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:34:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163777162325239 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163777162325239
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:34:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 16:33:43 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54802 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpvDL-0006Z1-Gi
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:33:43 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:11355)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mpvDI-0006Yn-Bt
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:33:42 -0500
Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 6988710018B;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:33:34 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 024FE10008C;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:33:33 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637771613;
 bh=DU/9WsHNqX2XpUi2QdgAmoGNSpwN/RKh0dnYDBT8oBA=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=FB/IP8SwvTS3J0Yw7JCsXIjZyidl0TUjHVdLziMoSXVIZm+LlNGCc8d/bFYtzbIcW
 /nWB2RzTVPQDabdVk95IOg2W29gLS2i0rIMLvbt2+cJ4el1K5It0c9uwOguLdcEReZ
 LXFDoicALN0B/kSojBtv3Y2vMyh4y0sFott2CdPQsrH1VEiRlMNMyrNz71uRprrc6O
 azXSqbNknOsfL/lCcSKB4pMN6hNGeqP6/LzSxE8muSyzhneMI22LLb7/gkVcGvASOK
 AzjVgZlnXwFK2hGDedmP7ueOXCcKq5/ds7/rn7O+CEkx3SUmudRvyaHLHxk0IVyWhn
 sygi0KxHSFUxw==
Received: from alfajor (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E66751201D8;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:33:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:33:31 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed,
 24 Nov 2021 17:21:43 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL 0.146 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> But perhaps others have other opinions here?

Compile your code and the problem goes away (because you'll never see
(lambda ...) or (closure ...) values, they'll all be
byte-code-functions instead ;-)


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:41:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163777202725888 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163777202725888
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:41:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 16:40:27 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54814 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpvJr-0006jU-GF
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:40:27 -0500
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.29]:35471)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <fgunbin@HIDDEN>) id 1mpvJp-0006jG-HS
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:40:26 -0500
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43])
 by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E31C45C0178;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:40:19 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162])
 by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:40:19 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h=
 from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
 :mime-version:content-type; s=fm1; bh=RtQa9BhsIBy/7PrBVUsPmz0jVC
 XH2dc2yu0jbnakJa4=; b=OH6hpf2XZIiTJtOLkW7mDzVP9NKDwI3/SHu8iSJcpP
 AoDecJRYuxlm+DQaVwwEDR0jmbS8uSLM/fxfXXOydlxpcTCFV2tf479lG3haHDGI
 AUmojGLio6GGxHM1e29EBkZxAk4rIHmlhFn2Iy/x8BCMjS+1QmZ9nYOgYCn5Y6PV
 Hk0ZqP/AXlHzVKwu+NmjnfSmq1eih50GURRVOJs2WQxAi/KjxJiFQ/T2RygtwdwZ
 gtmM+CkEuvrXZ08Uq6ttDZ5yIUf6Ack0LU7rGf6oGu4ijYEAznuVZG9r6evOY4Hs
 DN7HYlQA4TbTzCd5s5tM9xXvuicYNkdnFfChNTT6AqKQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=
 messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to
 :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy
 :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=RtQa9B
 hsIBy/7PrBVUsPmz0jVCXH2dc2yu0jbnakJa4=; b=CrN59+fN2NWbUraVBlcjMs
 GVqJ6bv/IaA07jrbEBE1YU4TOiSifYbhkZaENbSrBkDpiO30LSj6H3LfwxjiYOAP
 N4+HocQzQi1ps3indM7PWqj/aUBdv+jtcNZxi/xTqzY15ry7GEMQaWpnsn8drTo7
 5xhE14l6hBB/Qe24DCflvdQmo4wdVIPchtB4Elr7cG3QUA2+a2SpjK9CS/FzXJ1w
 7M4Z65zBAL+55tXRmcSkXZyPGEHwGNxCxcmxZADYGT0uSzMN6vWbff+kXwUc++DZ
 IUoKSqD/gZ0GJExDHuej+1sTEQTXW58rbXFg+mwwkM1srNWoUkdvtLoUZUA4hYiw
 ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:82qeYStTbKWFC_Q-k1nCOOuvgPIt4myyggw5Emff-GEH625ipUlReQ>
 <xme:82qeYXcncv81X6g3d_g0f1QjDOFSKltOOHdkIM8HW3xMqnP4vy9Pf8KWhpozRd12s
 14AUln8dciJri3P>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:82qeYdwPJN7CZFMaKoVuPySsInfed2WnfKC9czBZUsoEAwVDLvyeIaog92EdVtF05g>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrgeekgdelfecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf
 curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu
 uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc
 fjughrpefhvffujghffgffkfggtgesthdtredttdertdenucfhrhhomhephfhilhhiphhp
 ucfiuhhnsghinhcuoehfghhunhgsihhnsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhmqeenucggtffrrg
 htthgvrhhnpedvveekffdvueevhfdutdejheekvdeufeevtedttdevuddugfeiffeiveei
 vefhtdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe
 hfghhunhgsihhnsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhm
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:82qeYdPUTacDnJ39Zwz5l3ySvi8876VQkhiT6XrIGXqJHd_zUXxOyw>
 <xmx:82qeYS_0IJKezDB3EKFmCClKQ6cSbf_jyFC52GLrdGPvEigypgJZXg>
 <xmx:82qeYVXOpDELdlDn4NxVViW9UDHdJ_bOA-6BPyLDc4lMFr_eMlKGGA>
 <xmx:82qeYUK4foakweG6stPFUGmDzXFHs-koUOp_5O5TpTao8svSBTiBDw>
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed,
 24 Nov 2021 11:40:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 16:38:39 +0200")
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:40:16 +0300
Message-ID: <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-)

On 24/11/2021 16:38 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  monnier@HIDDEN
>> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:31:22 +0100
>>
>> If you put
>>
>> (lambda () 1)
>>
>> into *scratch* and then `C-u C-x C-e' it'll spit put
>>
>> (closure (t) nil 1)
>>
>> Because that's what that form evaluates to in lexically bound buffers.
>> `lambda' is no longer self-evaluating, and hasn't been for a few years.
>>
>> (But I guess it's pretty recent that *scratch* defaults to lexical.)
>>
>> And it's the same with
>>
>> (lambda ()
>>   (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p
>> 	'mail-mode-flyspell-verify))
>>
>> of course.
>
> I'm asking why we are doing this.  IT IS CONFUSING!!!

But you're creating normal lambda here, and under lex-bind it will
become a closure, to keep its lexical environment together with it.  In
your case there's nothing in lex environment, so that's it.

I just realized that I don't have lex-binding turned on in .emacs, and
because of that my customized hooks look "good", but I wonder: what is
the recommended binding mode for .emacs?  Dynamic or lexical?  With
lexical, all customizations would start to look as your example.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:55:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377728673293 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377728673293
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:55:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 16:54:27 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54830 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpvXP-0000r3-IA
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:27 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:5460)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mpvXM-0000qm-Um
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:26 -0500
Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 97BF6440E81;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:18 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 1AB63440DA4;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:17 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637772857;
 bh=v/epzk/hzmbinfLe0sMREaa2S++3Y8SAut8v0bFQyzg=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=eid42OFTsvkEbqbNO+0z7KZbFzImzbwpeh5wCzbWq1O5rOXo84nNNgc3j8AR/8kdJ
 vf5ekSrWPekLkXIunjCDZoeYoTNhjkHHGGtRuCPfOAt9ISAcEugLDtQSqIQxKOL/GB
 /wAOW83RFoSlShUjU6Gw1Bcn/tV+cWwk1JXmCLBsBFfoXMnvMTt4NkepqUS/vFhWxH
 L4sihxDr+hf42TPTeIN3nylzzV/pUXM0/HV/WddSF8+D+STb2UwLBfLcZYL+Ps3Nud
 JJ3DALr0gbRF72bALXcOyxe/FL1n0Q1xDPsVhjI2Az/mGUPTFJxvsh+HvWkzPE7XAu
 z1gj8vVSJ39Rg==
Received: from alfajor (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0AB3E120206;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:09 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> (Filipp Gunbin's message of "Wed, 24
 Nov 2021 19:40:16 +0300")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL 0.146 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs?  Dynamic or lexical?

`lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere.
The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out.


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:55:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377728913330 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377728913330
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:55:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 16:54:51 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54834 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpvXm-0000rd-PI
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:50 -0500
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49480)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpvXk-0000rQ-Rn
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:49 -0500
Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=37356 helo=fencepost.gnu.org)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpvXf-0005RW-IU; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:43 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=QGHrBb+yMiALtc2u6crDFNzujKrYC1ECV3Gnr+cy31o=; b=Tmb5CQEUxLWA
 vgyUhkCXTs5yQGMRLSWaAoAM7FBNsbs+32o+DxtKpPgYEUUKBGdlV6LKggNIt96M/fOXW25LRu6su
 KKiHargCu5BG4eCnOboe3fLzb4yj/UUgzPDKzzrgoNOq4w3IFxTXAhEUw99xZmrqh6p+zMUWWBRwy
 x0yQBKCPF8xOzpxNhiYgnmIC3tYE3Ym52jOBDZoIo9oJ+PdS6wh3CvzKk1/PEVYaaMKlTzudaHVOA
 SHzMlk67hcbteZ8dkjDSQjBYWh9yfGExB2haXpBDP0+nS+2DYrSoJOo23wTiafgfdFrkQeeC+o27M
 JdqlQJCfldTAccjK+PUJSg==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1446 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpvXf-00081w-4Q; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:43 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:54:41 +0200
Message-Id: <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:33:31 -0500)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:33:31 -0500
> 
> > But perhaps others have other opinions here?
> 
> Compile your code and the problem goes away (because you'll never see
> (lambda ...) or (closure ...) values, they'll all be
> byte-code-functions instead ;-)

I don't want to compile my .emacs.

Any other words of wisdom before I write this off as another
annoyance of lexical-binding, and take care to disable that wherever I
can?

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:57:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377729823509 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377729823509
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:57:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 16:56:22 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54841 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpvZG-0000uX-40
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:56:22 -0500
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49924)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpvZE-0000uK-MP
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:56:20 -0500
Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=37500 helo=fencepost.gnu.org)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpvZ9-0005mk-Cc; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:56:15 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=57fmKLyuj3a3H11O5uDRBOWR6nz/yQUn9Iyl1uZ54q8=; b=oFXa5dPSQdgy
 TlbluzeVSnj3Sa5+/vklTYuTXZz5Keb+ACO0xRFUCqJSCzTB4wkYZ8VUcf4+pGfTRhFLQUL27UAzc
 YGgaKsVCvor2vIDbY/SDjZdLIt0xT/Ol1CjSW1aqrfloUqYR1bfxjRx5+gh4NgMjoV5FdL2PAOU+U
 i50LY+sx+PAJEiGJFCI7e/snbX0L4Vv4ekiRrO0N/C6wlpproaScpTYnWWxJY+avSwXb3pIafmeld
 IsFGikcHDXzg3Sjn6PX8DgqppE9hfE+jTfQ1C3W7sgJ+Y/+kcSnEHddcWcTJAFrPTBfUYaNoQp/4G
 DQVrrtHyjzUkCv5PoLdHtg==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1542 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpvZ9-0008UX-38; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:56:15 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:56:15 +0200
Message-Id: <83h7c18pch.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Filipp Gunbin on Wed, 
 24 Nov 2021 19:40:16 +0300)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>,  52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>   monnier@HIDDEN
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:40:16 +0300
> 
> But you're creating normal lambda here, and under lex-bind it will
> become a closure, to keep its lexical environment together with it.

So how do I get my lambda back, in the lexical-binding environment?

> I just realized that I don't have lex-binding turned on in .emacs, and
> because of that my customized hooks look "good", but I wonder: what is
> the recommended binding mode for .emacs?  Dynamic or lexical?  With
> lexical, all customizations would start to look as your example.

That's how I discovered this nit.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377744105825 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377744105825
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 17:20:10 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54867 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpvwF-0001Vn-I4
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:20:10 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:55175)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mpvw8-0001V8-Kq
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:20:06 -0500
Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 0F0EA440F6A;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:19:55 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 9B4B7440F07;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:19:53 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637774393;
 bh=+Ndbm9Y62zQJ4vounC3nsho0cTY91nsnwOLF8rPsn+U=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=M5c2GatCicxlien31c0xWS+R2Zgd3pOHw99MoinNTob+ZeKeF+uPGS09SU1cvDoqO
 ToX+SGWpQ0ETE7J7UmKQ7SxjVnNcnj/49lMu8adMmPxnP7+yGLxO8TRc2VL/s26HTp
 pah7QwTsHuC6jRDOtKiz0vTuacik66NEeR4D3cTj9UIHT0OcIqrqLe41WXayczBb5m
 6xFc0QA12/C5ctAzegxklSNuRMuZdzZxL+8fhWJ66/Uzea4kwQYp9a/x0QNtAa8yhS
 s8lDrb7BXNcijuLGD82UAscd8mN2jzrG4f/S8MYjVo2NbVCrBm4J31KjL26tsRzEBk
 HXZaMqX6Flq8g==
Received: from alfajor (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8AFBD120193;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:19:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:19:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 18:54:41 +0200")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL 0.145 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

>> > But perhaps others have other opinions here?
>> Compile your code and the problem goes away (because you'll never see
>> (lambda ...) or (closure ...) values, they'll all be
>> byte-code-functions instead ;-)
> I don't want to compile my .emacs.
> Any other words of wisdom before I write this off as another annoyance
> of lexical-binding, and take care to disable that wherever I can?

The other word of wisdom is:
Don't add lambdas to hook.  Always name those functions.

That's good advice regardless of lexical/dynamic scoping.


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:45:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377758918170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377758918170
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:45:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 17:44:51 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54896 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpwKB-00027i-A3
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:44:51 -0500
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36220)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpwK9-00027V-3c
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:44:50 -0500
Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=40196 helo=fencepost.gnu.org)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpwK2-0005ny-Cu; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:44:42 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=GqKwQAjsIZ5RTfP5VWrQcSrSGGmPFs6dOy5ODPQUi3I=; b=agXrE6PbwgwF
 hgBf/GMx/78GOIPvDV39XGeLdykVxnyQYMKVAKZlNW9tXb8p+PJCJ3dEfugxZtoTXBEc6k951tN6C
 iyG7hpcT3R/crst27l7dpxqW9wW/uJ2dbsekMcTfK34wwttZnUGpHScx/SC3+iDEHP+IFfajeLXLM
 JrjUzvJzmfz0TsEY3chUwEt7Y7KaS8Cwh/Y66S9P7TMkH7LQ0NLw8bejaHqvTphobDUs4ohwHdIkH
 99Qng6HaOvJOGF78zLSimqhsitOXuIPBJX4vx/QV7vCzB84kV3UqHmZkTA6ZY3QQSimUjSJ2AgovY
 NCyJZwlWISziTPgNLXG4jg==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4558 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpwK2-0002vK-4J; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:44:42 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:44:42 +0200
Message-Id: <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:19:51 -0500)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: larsi@HIDDEN,  52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:19:51 -0500
> 
> >> > But perhaps others have other opinions here?
> >> Compile your code and the problem goes away (because you'll never see
> >> (lambda ...) or (closure ...) values, they'll all be
> >> byte-code-functions instead ;-)
> > I don't want to compile my .emacs.
> > Any other words of wisdom before I write this off as another annoyance
> > of lexical-binding, and take care to disable that wherever I can?
> 
> The other word of wisdom is:
> Don't add lambdas to hook.  Always name those functions.

So this issue is specific to hooks?  I thought add-hook is just a
fancy way of consing a list, but you seem to say that it has some side
effects that other constructs don't?

IOW, would manually consing a list with a lambda-function produce the
same results, or would it leave the lambda-function intact?

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:19:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163777793611493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163777793611493
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:19:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 18:18:56 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54911 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpwrA-0002zJ-Aj
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:18:56 -0500
Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.29]:35349)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <fgunbin@HIDDEN>) id 1mpwr7-0002z1-1S
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:18:55 -0500
Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43])
 by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E617A5C0153;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:18:46 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162])
 by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:18:46 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h=
 from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
 :mime-version:content-type; s=fm1; bh=LGMBbS6XAXFDvtM4QhT12SgSEH
 gJqWRv07aOTInpcN4=; b=ovFt+nqwanB3u6HNUJbbXLYukvf2FkhhSx/gEpGa+1
 C5dLpEP0IeRlnRJ9Klf+n9RB7q7avixhxzWedZH3FDqngXcvBev8aJmRl6g3icjy
 DIEMalZrA/zMYGe5AYkrIrjMyuunpfZ6BP7UQ2gKdOUizlEvPUFzBRBz8C3D4YJD
 Ck+4xsZYJR1g2ewiEqKW3hfBZmaRTqILBUecJOb1P/n1AQkuyxNk6ExMsYBLBfC0
 xAWEWZE340q2wQCjVw31T5B64zQ7V50wzzWrTgngJQXYsSwcopz2eG+/hGCHdDiI
 RLihzJh8czLUyGQIsSlshAcNEvWRqpIashqD4G9/4wpg==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=
 messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to
 :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy
 :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=LGMBbS
 6XAXFDvtM4QhT12SgSEHgJqWRv07aOTInpcN4=; b=Yw0mapDFzIE7GCC7Nkbra1
 QugYM+KYuStX0LgT9UGJSGeqRsJsqUMdTCn7ZqaFXY1stHCooGpzLZA4xAVTw94W
 oOIwbiYM3Tb5+5aAm/y0rmixlQ/pJUzg0u1TIVUfMeRMjkXRz24VPtoU//MbyYqy
 j+ChlJghqVIHb8OXXwms055xEM4zYFKXAd6nWYeQNKGaK3NqjKDrXvOg555Kk5cX
 UHKUNEFXuN8jeFfbpYVbiXDdZ7lK0lsVAOD760xXAyguHH/3OtKmYplU7ZYWvknD
 hDaaA6nf3tHymBYXdjg5tgx9q/U70DfvPfaXHo6e7LiVXYWXwbYD4FW3+SWCzc6Q
 ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:BoKeYcutPFSQ6E4Wu--od5Z0pN4mZY2I-uKdK0OPeNrf1_0CPYWdew>
 <xme:BoKeYZd9FOuNeeA6HAgY6B8nQnWHVlFlIx9l6Rhm298BgdP59ZFCtAJbknRQjIiBY
 aaCUQdhQ7O43np3>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:BoKeYXx7IzER245iMfxljt4QPtoQDzdZ6UNAQd4SCcVqMTcKPqXKzyY8R-6gIcEZAA>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrgeekgdduudefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf
 fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen
 uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne
 cujfgurhephffvufgjfhgffffkgggtsehttdertddtredtnecuhfhrohhmpefhihhlihhp
 phcuifhunhgsihhnuceofhhguhhnsghinhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmheqnecuggftrf
 grthhtvghrnhepvdevkeffvdeuvefhuddtjeehkedvueefveettddtveduudfgieffieev
 ieevhfdtnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh
 epfhhguhhnsghinhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmh
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:BoKeYfNnQHAFSkiRq9aGbSFd2o97l9NQwD8APgB88G3XxPXXSq8OCQ>
 <xmx:BoKeYc9YGHMl1pRYDp0u6mBSnVysLQeKozxdl0Macs1YCl9BhCvSKw>
 <xmx:BoKeYXVm4sK8VMv7wtLbLwBBcja5guy1GG0eGpM1gU1wNoF2j-yWQA>
 <xmx:BoKeYeIQAhkcD3aGCJPGuzXAdOKv_MqaNNVwCX6MyRGFp3_52fKa0Q>
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed,
 24 Nov 2021 13:18:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message
 of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:09 -0500")
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:18:43 +0300
Message-ID: <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-)

On 24/11/2021 11:54 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs?  Dynamic or lexical?
>
> `lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere.
> The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out.

Yes, I know that eventually it'll be phased out, but then perhaps issues
such as this need special attention..

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:07:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163778080824785 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163778080824785
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:07:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 19:06:48 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54977 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpxbU-0006Rh-EW
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:48 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:29915)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mpxbR-0006RQ-TM
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:47 -0500
Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 56BBF4410DC;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:40 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id DDF924410C8;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:38 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637780798;
 bh=Avr6/FPWIS1UHXGZRscx88qcpAlDxUV/ZdPRwKUS87w=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=RNtgY33MzO8yMWmzYAErFjg6xEFtS3wNsFsjvsQYNf4bDP45jjRiaFfEz50n7Ok9V
 vboG4WR1ZrfrK0zaC6azAxb3OAbGdRlS6M5o0Apsm//tTrAiu4yrMsSXG23WSUSCG4
 ksPbvV80iGJB9/wVZyFpg7js2cQ5A7lgz1G0UYlnqA7X2nJuwqN3y2fR8Qy/pdLT2o
 tzb2VVhhzd9mLEV6zWDfVULaDY3605tVPmQ74/DbZkxsaohlMPuNXZpTz1+QRKEvLx
 cF/bB4m/L6rgpfbeAXTOo0LGP+d5jdlnsmzc7vQjVWimQZSpdPAS4ImEnKls5Mo2fS
 7zXTKlL/PBenw==
Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AEB1E1201D8;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:37 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 19:44:42 +0200")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.121 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

>> >> > But perhaps others have other opinions here?
>> >> Compile your code and the problem goes away (because you'll never see
>> >> (lambda ...) or (closure ...) values, they'll all be
>> >> byte-code-functions instead ;-)
>> > I don't want to compile my .emacs.
>> > Any other words of wisdom before I write this off as another annoyance
>> > of lexical-binding, and take care to disable that wherever I can?
>> The other word of wisdom is:
>> Don't add lambdas to hook.  Always name those functions.
> So this issue is specific to hooks?

No, but in 99% of the cases you won't actually *see* a function value
(unless you specifically go looking for it, e.g. with `symbol-function`).

One of the cases where you are more likely to see one is if you look at
the value of a hook.

> I thought add-hook is just a fancy way of consing a list,

It is.

> but you seem to say that it has some side effects that other
> constructs don't?

Not really, no.

> IOW, would manually consing a list with a lambda-function produce the
> same results,

Yes.

> or would it leave the lambda-function intact?

No.  A *value* of the form (lambda ARGS . BODY) is a (non-compiled)
dynamically-scoped function.  Non-compiled statically-scoped function
values use the form (closure ENV ARGS . BODY...).

So you'll only get a value of the form (lambda ARGS . BODY) if you use
the dynamically scoped dialect of ELisp (or if you manually create such
a list, e.g. with '(lambda ...) or `(lambda ...) or (list 'lambda ...),
etc...).


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:10:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163778094525002 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163778094525002
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:10:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 19:09:05 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54982 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpxdg-0006VC-S7
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:09:05 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:47771)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mpxdf-0006Uj-M1
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:09:04 -0500
Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 4EC8480159;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:08:58 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 6C078802AA;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:08:56 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637780936;
 bh=brt/CPHIjoOBVTxwZjdvu4/QXfo2IasoieeU29KcHyc=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=i5+ooCBsgG6ZnYf24pw+elszmW8sdd0nWF+qOMDBmi5NfmD4om9gFiIyeAO/PDZhA
 hZsdfrWTcB0erDwBR9+KIW+gssPL1pMv/gJFFBec1a1R2NV9FPrEKV0mb/8Z+YZuo6
 ATwtzpgxY2QjBYF8eOHPn/5/j27+r4iHQ7CCXpuTS4p9k7GmU+Nrw1b6iC9U9Hdfom
 FchHkXGT5WLB6xk7BE5ii8H/eCf/Dw9BXb1uPn2SZDQ11vLFBwzUmzMj+WXqpiPm0C
 4QDVWmVn/5YjHCoFPx3AIr3KOltiXKb0ZQ75HpP5P/rmv6rtBJNnBho4OUBxiZHmUA
 73+aaOPuz39hg==
Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 260AD12010B;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:08:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:08:55 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> (Filipp Gunbin's message of "Wed, 24
 Nov 2021 21:18:43 +0300")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.093 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Filipp Gunbin [2021-11-24 21:18:43] wrote:
> On 24/11/2021 11:54 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs?  Dynamic or lexical?
>> `lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere.
>> The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out.
> Yes, I know that eventually it'll be phased out, but then perhaps issues
> such as this need special attention..

Indeed, but I'm not sure what we can do about it.
From where I sit, the problem is one of habit.


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:42:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163778288428004 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, fgunbin@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163778288428004
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:42:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 19:41:24 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55009 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpy8x-0007Hc-VC
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:41:24 -0500
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39278)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpy8v-0007HP-G6
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:41:22 -0500
Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=45124 helo=fencepost.gnu.org)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpy8m-0001jZ-PJ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:41:15 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=wMUdYydI/AKZjrSq+hfm4Y240bpN6IpXGppY6QPDPVU=; b=KAclypJnJUP4
 OW9vyTAUCbi8nKo/HUyQ2LxzePS8pSVmkMvGouCXsqQdwNYxvDOd9V6yd21VQTQXO7WrI/dQpH7RL
 10rpjdanFPwLz0PtmCaMUheqHwHGuSGAEcGlFlD/QT4EauLaN1rUNVNfLVXd9NHMRJ3CRSYYblhuS
 I0kyXVJs0+qKg9kV31Hc8dGwn1LiM4YCfDjjNU73C1OdN0Te+3qW3u26z8dNqQ64ZzdoMMm3wBRkA
 vFDLVjoMUOZ+UFAWZpDWxH3SR332cy845GcUCI3lsEEMuRUgp8EWxwgTXHjtBagJqYbTq4SMQ7GJZ
 lYvqOPdhstOI3e3xLSDUlw==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3827 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpy8m-0001H2-EX; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:41:12 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:41:12 +0200
Message-Id: <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:08:55 -0500)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>,
>   52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:08:55 -0500
> 
> >From where I sit, the problem is one of habit.

There's nothing wrong with habits, and there's no reason to fight
habits of others, even if you don't share them.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:47:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163778317528515 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, fgunbin@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163778317528515
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:47:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 19:46:15 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55023 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpyDe-0007Pr-V3
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:15 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:24170)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyDd-0007Pe-11
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:13 -0500
Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 62E501001C4;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:07 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id D02EB10016E;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:05 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637783165;
 bh=g03iT1RQDLTw+ZH3XcRrpubwHOvva6lrEX1RTXSH3G4=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=Gj0bmnoy+ZshKv0aC38BsrT5hKmfpZlBRQxxjZBVf7TIYW6KTLNA6PfmHH/X6S0tk
 jZw32NYc0esBfJh7JAoz94F1xuHqGjA+bszhAS3OHZk2zghUbLKq9NKjvYrkNhcVXz
 NMQMVQ9HWLGbNjEsXpfvrQE2AsOV15NpGdZmbBE2N3pYC6R+tuC3eVoA4mhfhJ7rdu
 KxLfFJ5G99EYiV6nsvdykDHHDpCu2y/Rqg1Cg+4VajppXVPv2/lsOAQ/wLfHn0dsQw
 xJhelfqoO5elYaIeis5iOgXm+DC8KyWKXx+jUtSkxeRlqQwCAIuZYBZZRBnACt4CeA
 RbP2dffwLRitA==
Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0305120983;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:04 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 21:41:12 +0200")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.095 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

>> >From where I sit, the problem is one of habit.
> There's nothing wrong with habits, and there's no reason to fight
> habits of others, even if you don't share them.

What I'm saying is that you are annoyed by the (closure ...) thingy
mostly because you're used to seeing (lambda ...) rather than because
there's an actual problem with the (closure ...) itself.

IOW if it had always behaved that way, you wouldn't be bothered by it.

If I had my way, we'd never see any (lambda ...) value nor any (closure
...) value, but we'd instead see things more like #<function ...> or
maybe #[function ...] ;-)


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:54:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163778362229206 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163778362229206
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:54:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 19:53:42 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55043 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpyKs-0007az-7r
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:53:42 -0500
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42246)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyKq-0007an-Nh
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:53:41 -0500
Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=45288 helo=fencepost.gnu.org)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpyKk-0008Tv-Ii; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:53:35 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=i9pMj7Yx9basDq+ayQ72GTG/y0ZGN2OXWj+VF1b2WjA=; b=iOo7u6wMGUJM
 agt3rDGiTXhqzNoHsP2X6Pf5LpKzZqR2oO8Az99ZFZOA/4Pt2Y3SigkN987ymj0/CSapwnwN5WQIw
 4UGSoc8sTSNiEC+EGfCPP/GtNFVhOFqfqLn7yU9kGbdYrvTYJc1+++sZI7C3vlrh+/xqkuNunaQpO
 d4yVpKtWi9YoIugD/ye5MvDU3EeSb7ggu+EAsSl33YcOCtKgSz+b2fmFWBfElzTR8e2uyiK8OLiAO
 G94FWjDfU9eLzUYLAK4IdxZ9e3KRp/GS+FsjA0oOAR+S4qqdFf/VfEU32UbSHKtFITM7SDUb3cqAp
 x5jCvV3dYSjWIuspQECl1g==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4589 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpyKk-0002QK-8E; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:53:34 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:53:33 +0200
Message-Id: <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:37 -0500)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: larsi@HIDDEN,  52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:37 -0500
> 
> > So this issue is specific to hooks?
> 
> No, but in 99% of the cases you won't actually *see* a function value
> (unless you specifically go looking for it, e.g. with `symbol-function`).

We also have gobs of variables that are not hooks, which accept
function values.  And we also have menu items and mode-line constructs
that sometimes use anonymous functions.  And timer functions.  And
process filter and sentinel functions.  And that's just 5 sec of
thinking where one could meet them.

> So you'll only get a value of the form (lambda ARGS . BODY) if you use
> the dynamically scoped dialect of ELisp (or if you manually create such
> a list, e.g. with '(lambda ...) or `(lambda ...) or (list 'lambda ...),
> etc...).

So I guess the warning about quoting lambdas with ' instead of #' is
actually misleading people into getting these closures instead of the
lambdas they might expect?  Because that is how this started for me:
during startup Emacs said:

 .emacs: Warning: (lambda nil \.\.\.) quoted with ' rather than with #'

So why do we emit those warnings for Lisp code evaluated from a file
that doesn't have lexical-binding setting in it?  If it were not for
this warning, I'd have never tried using #', and thus would have never
bumped into this curiosity.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:00:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163778399329860 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, fgunbin@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163778399329860
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:00:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 19:59:53 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55056 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpyQr-0007lY-7h
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:59:53 -0500
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44254)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyQo-0007lJ-WD
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:59:52 -0500
Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=45572 helo=fencepost.gnu.org)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpyQh-0001GO-Vg; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:59:45 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=RCqDeqI6hK/w+bJ03wnr0FqcoUIdCToF8fbIxbiDyUE=; b=fGCbKDB3XdMV
 LUCFaTWljmEQb1w8ZsJJCDy3I/H7sg28h603JYd/r2WFnbscpBDAC18b1Ug9YRhN7vAprQ6uOryqw
 VaA8nzSiEPffI6s09eQJ87KbeeGngkXqdSVWevcyypR8eT8+b1N4rhqdBTQl2srVsawvKOKuhoDHx
 SRN16EXHvFsawu71ZQjuz8oRl02T9DF9OxAYmJJsJi5K7TPt8ZxGcaEN9EEtQC7ZSPKJSFqqhL9yq
 G6E4GnF23yI/p+lwdTug9yGByAWQAXwj+9/tZW5fsdR35HCNGoUmHEFGYF7Q4MURR70GQ9ETPe5QR
 SzWMoUaXT2N30yjM1qH1RQ==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4966 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpyQh-0001t0-AS; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:59:43 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:59:42 +0200
Message-Id: <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:04 -0500)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: fgunbin@HIDDEN,  larsi@HIDDEN,  52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:04 -0500
> 
> >> >From where I sit, the problem is one of habit.
> > There's nothing wrong with habits, and there's no reason to fight
> > habits of others, even if you don't share them.
> 
> What I'm saying is that you are annoyed by the (closure ...) thingy
> mostly because you're used to seeing (lambda ...) rather than because
> there's an actual problem with the (closure ...) itself.

And that is strange because?...  I want to see the code I wrote, not
some strange transformation of it.

> IOW if it had always behaved that way, you wouldn't be bothered by it.

This kind of arguments lead nowhere useful.  It smells of disrespect
to dissenting opinions, which I'm sure you didn't intend.

I'm annoyed by this misfeature.  If it means nothing to you and
others, so be it.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:09:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377845316847 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377845316847
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:09:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 20:08:51 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55068 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpyZX-0001mN-Ax
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:51 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:65317)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyZS-0001ly-V1
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:49 -0500
Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 319BB803D6;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:41 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 690E2801B5;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:39 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637784519;
 bh=iXeKBGxfcVsSJz6+HLO3fdc+7iLcEUJ4KWeX9oZy5I0=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=ci8jJwl6JO6garPV77orUgxT9x+4otT/r+lr90LjRz0ogFWuxGM7V8wA89yi72asB
 /qsectSJ3wQtg+zZtb3tOKDykjc3Nr0Nxlo3GCDw6nEJmUAR/rLulAMOQOYP+qpEem
 a1aoJ/g5w3Yb53WJ2SUjznGaOg8/78XE7Pdpy6XUIGTdV8OQmY+R1l6QRJhnwNoF8U
 aT2CaJOZElFlnDUYiEDfHoTVCHHRI2mC1icmgm9XTbjQt/InN7gDxO2ySv4y+zFUD7
 DimsZ96ZQhT0IGqg6cMF1NhmOh8uIS8EtfIe9PxqBtgdKXALA78d9X9jpFmm+QM1Wx
 0M9PSWg1ou9kA==
Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39765120859;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:38 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 21:53:33 +0200")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.093 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

>> No, but in 99% of the cases you won't actually *see* a function value
>> (unless you specifically go looking for it, e.g. with `symbol-function`).
> We also have gobs of variables that are not hooks, which accept
> function values.

Indeed, tho I think there are a few more such hooks and at least I have
looked at hook values a lot more often than I have looked at
<foo>-function values.

> And we also have menu items and mode-line constructs
> that sometimes use anonymous functions.

I think it's very rare for a user to look at those objects.

> And timer functions.

I can't remember the last time I looked at such a value.  And given the
extra info attached to it, it's not very legible so I don't think people
are affected very much by a change in the actual function
representation there.

> And process filter and sentinel functions.

Same here: you will often set them, but very rarely will you actually
look at their value.

> And that's just 5 sec of thinking where one could meet them.

Indeed, there are many more places.

>> So you'll only get a value of the form (lambda ARGS . BODY) if you use
>> the dynamically scoped dialect of ELisp (or if you manually create such
>> a list, e.g. with '(lambda ...) or `(lambda ...) or (list 'lambda ...),
>> etc...).
>
> So I guess the warning about quoting lambdas with ' instead of #' is
> actually misleading people into getting these closures instead of the
> lambdas they might expect?

A value (lambda ...) is fundamentally a list.  The rest of the system
(e.g. the byte-compiler, flymake, ...) can't know if you intend to use
this list as a function, so it can't really look inside to compile its
body, warn you about typos in its body, or uses of obsolete
vars/functions, etc...

> So why do we emit those warnings for Lisp code evaluated from a file
> that doesn't have lexical-binding setting in it?

Those warnings predate the introduction of lexical scoping, indeed.

They're mostly there so you don't mistakenly write code which the
byte-compiler can't compile (and which `flymake` can't analyze to give
you further feedback about issues in that code).

It's all about the difference between code and data ;-)


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:15:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377848547423 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377848547423
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:15:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 20:14:14 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55073 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpyek-0001vf-27
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:14:14 -0500
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49048)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyef-0001vM-6L
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:14:12 -0500
Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=46516 helo=fencepost.gnu.org)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpyeZ-0004c6-NI; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:14:03 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org;
 s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date:
 mime-version; bh=2cvmtUsldj9RflsrE2swPh6i61lVLOMVEMgd3HmhaOM=; b=mrsyJgFrtYg5
 EPXF+YrdZzz88L/0rSPwmeFwI6HFCJpZ4QxdO0aAL7CJIPMomIkKhUgg3hMm3qAafwIW7HN9BnZST
 dGg+1u4STyuAWP+nOu4+kfHE1bN/WjtyRf8AxG76EfRLSvqkBcdupn082kT7rHoEXWLLfuhA6dy0E
 RfxvcwAjLoU1FR37CVEOYy1E73GumwwNS1D7Pf/KlPf3Bk+wEDPsbceuBbNEptb2OpXT+7sM2oAVv
 +dutUczvRF49WIpRV6mxVJ3Qh13H+Y8UHZwJZ+aQA23psjQwSIKPPJPsqmNbJYmENwnKCsvIq7E1V
 0h79ycc31RjSpeVR0Wnu2Q==;
Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2029 helo=home-c4e4a596f7)
 by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mpyeZ-0003on-Ae; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:14:03 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:14:03 +0200
Message-Id: <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan
 Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:38 -0500)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: larsi@HIDDEN,  52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:38 -0500
> 
> > And we also have menu items and mode-line constructs
> > that sometimes use anonymous functions.
> 
> I think it's very rare for a user to look at those objects.
> 
> > And timer functions.
> 
> I can't remember the last time I looked at such a value.  And given the
> extra info attached to it, it's not very legible so I don't think people
> are affected very much by a change in the actual function
> representation there.
> 
> > And process filter and sentinel functions.
> 
> Same here: you will often set them, but very rarely will you actually
> look at their value.

I look at the values to make sure they are what I expect.  It's normal
in Emacs to do that, isn't it?

> > So I guess the warning about quoting lambdas with ' instead of #' is
> > actually misleading people into getting these closures instead of the
> > lambdas they might expect?
> 
> A value (lambda ...) is fundamentally a list.  The rest of the system
> (e.g. the byte-compiler, flymake, ...) can't know if you intend to use
> this list as a function, so it can't really look inside to compile its
> body, warn you about typos in its body, or uses of obsolete
> vars/functions, etc...

I'm talking about evaluation, not about byte-compilation.  This
happened when Emacs was processing my init file.

> It's all about the difference between code and data ;-)

What difference?  I always thought that in Emacs Lisp there's no such
difference.  Does lexical-binding change that as well?

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:17:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377849967747 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377849967747
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:17:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 20:16:36 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55078 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpyh2-00020t-Gv
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:16:36 -0500
Received: from mail-ot1-f54.google.com ([209.85.210.54]:36463)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyh1-00020f-21
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:16:35 -0500
Received: by mail-ot1-f54.google.com with SMTP id
 w6-20020a9d77c6000000b0055e804fa524so6101297otl.3
 for <52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:16:35 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;
 h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to
 :cc; bh=LoTsefPQbvLx2nVOME1+1IQAFh2MON7oEJIrM2KZ5Oc=;
 b=GGL0JTzbFMFZ83ozK2GYdB0JM8hzDds7R7+CC0R8F5FO1uLXyE+OIncW4FbbrjF5uP
 TopF5vtGPygKr+7VKJa5DVhcSxgsfws1O7T/gHD/Y4ogf8+lN7RbwpEkyPCsy9TqeLpV
 4C2M8bBxkzBHWX+vnSlFIKuJHguTnAyJEdhewO3xJxMwu8s4QH4Mot9d7xCFawrczPaP
 CfVOPrF0Qqrngwn1f+cbyBQoCbovgkwOXAaXkAsbgLIqEc+r0KqBo7ONybsXCKVxAQ+G
 49yQmFitdZqVzFrsMeSW6ueA2qkxL2QJeruAwVldkHC0YYTJe+5SxX+QlH097eZz5sya
 I6Cg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
 :message-id:subject:to:cc;
 bh=LoTsefPQbvLx2nVOME1+1IQAFh2MON7oEJIrM2KZ5Oc=;
 b=XxaqJktVjZrrvONYHNTmvQkD+2sJGUV+/QaFgBCdt6tstMgzoek0UgINU7uX53fCCe
 hKewsN0bIFymH3YOcj3kTQXFKIloRkC274sxbeKH8gwhtf3NBEPsfFFAh9TasFmJEL0Y
 ZXyTIOeQT6XyXc9VDF5AWTygV2pK1YpRn0Y0ed+gn7FRvtOauNxM/Gm4NqZPMaYp0LAD
 JEMEJa/szMzlEyQWPWOiGapVd7UD9xVv20Ef/gzho6hF0aVKRqH23c2EXCDuK3sWATCr
 yxRA1QI4fxQ35DYV4gvvLA6n+Rb4rT3vF0LybPIUsa3wRQ65Ls+5CfbtVyoCNCSer3vv
 u9YA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Kxc1KRvVzPag+jufBO9xjKrAaCjwJFTTStxBvnmpYF6jeBygk
 YcCorhigpRSMRV5Fxz94WrrSOLZ9L8F8lEkHxag=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy9GI4RVmcgpKpqLSCjKwmNtwZ+/O2OgSOkKWuCnJ3bxiB9eSvUlJRxE/msFqQUKp+pFcKL2skVKSy+jbJnPWw=
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:749a:: with SMTP id t26mr16781950otk.96.1637784989353; 
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:16:29 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
From: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:16:18 +0100
Message-ID: <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/)

Am Mi., 24. Nov. 2021 um 20:17 Uhr schrieb Stefan Monnier via Bug
reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
<bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
>
> Filipp Gunbin [2021-11-24 21:18:43] wrote:
> > On 24/11/2021 11:54 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> >>> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs?  Dynamic or lexical?
> >> `lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere.
> >> The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out.
> > Yes, I know that eventually it'll be phased out, but then perhaps issues
> > such as this need special attention..
>
> Indeed, but I'm not sure what we can do about it.

Maybe, once the non-lexical dialect is gone, we can make (closure (t)
(lambda ...)) identical to (lambda ...) and then prefer the latter
again.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:25:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16377854438503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, fgunbin@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377854438503
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:25:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 20:24:03 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55089 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpyoE-0002D5-PT
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:24:02 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:15022)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyoC-0002CY-Ne
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:24:01 -0500
Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id C95E81001C4;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:54 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 26C4B10016E;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:53 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637785433;
 bh=vOBgPKIB02XOKBgzTfhk2YqNAwsQ19lvm6yNCQVI7aM=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=FBjYd9lSM37zDwSga9AM6jRBQA80wNazu4SeDQQiaq98NQZYNQu4vZDExqUZ/mq+0
 tWcSczsdVK1OfI3N3CQxhlbMEKkYqIOs9mfsdae6LbnuugDHJp9bdeskcwubetvZ5k
 zY5KoTumAie9s9tAlRQlBF4VOJSgbCK9q3cOxlCBu3vgt8b8T0BVElPQhqieG2VCzB
 DDkRBbG0JKOEoHf80T88OGWWYIV+ZhF1MnCH7t7C01jpq5OfICg9irv3R2EinB4Czc
 ceTMiiJa+otXV+cqGUVDFV6iJSlWOWH7qe8hkK1YFYQZcY0yO3Xq6TIHOdXlN92ypb
 82Bb9WI6HtFeA==
Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3C571207D4;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:52 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 21:59:42 +0200")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.095 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

>> What I'm saying is that you are annoyed by the (closure ...) thingy
>> mostly because you're used to seeing (lambda ...) rather than because
>> there's an actual problem with the (closure ...) itself.
> And that is strange because?...

Because a function value is fundamentally something very different from
the text of the code from which it came.

E.g. just `read`ing the object will have lost info such as comments or
choice between ?a and 97, then macroexpansion will change the code
further, and with lexical scoping the need to capture the environment
means that the function values need to be completed with the
captured environment.

> I want to see the code I wrote, not
> some strange transformation of it.

Given all the info lost between the source code and the actual function
value (it's even worse if the code gets compiled), I think the better
way to do that is to try and keep a reference to the source.
We currently don't do that, but we should.

>> IOW if it had always behaved that way, you wouldn't be bothered by it.
> This kind of arguments lead nowhere useful.  It smells of disrespect
> to dissenting opinions, which I'm sure you didn't intend.

No, it's just a guess, based on experience in other languages.

> I'm annoyed by this misfeature.  If it means nothing to you and
> others, so be it.

I fully understand desire to see function values printed as much as
possible as their original source code, but it's hard to reconcile this
with the needs of clean semantics, efficient execution, good code
analysis, ...


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:11:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163778824713187 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163778824713187
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:11:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 21:10:47 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55108 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mpzXT-0003Qd-C8
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:10:47 -0500
Received: from mail-pf1-f170.google.com ([209.85.210.170]:41583)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <eduardoochs@HIDDEN>) id 1mpzXR-0003QP-G0
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:10:46 -0500
Received: by mail-pf1-f170.google.com with SMTP id g19so3828477pfb.8
 for <52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:10:45 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;
 h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to
 :cc; bh=IVZfCghcRYq3hB4K+DydKFIUKmisMnHkNlAdXl2NAJA=;
 b=kJOufrSa906pjMlyQnm31F0ONPmA3tBXn/czGupfrJiGunoYZ+ZS1VWvp9GcPw1SLd
 AGvFP+JE2Q0CimKBnJnPthOptMuGlQxCXwRLgJEhlrq/yeSOoEuOhwUk5yBLsoQTpUZ2
 kQWtqQA3l/MYkf1/4x3MLnSwrOdUByy3McuHdWfL+SW7XvrLODCVULL+22c08SokxC19
 FgknA3gSMsNHL2N8G769PixmGC8EGHbJJY6eW2A59kz44syr5CSdJIganyQoZJAQ7Nt/
 qeFrsfLpQ8NNEYxl/BgDyTxn5w2lVwFBbaee3TC7DBsiAYk7YXRVWehAEG6srGZp27zr
 h0UQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date
 :message-id:subject:to:cc;
 bh=IVZfCghcRYq3hB4K+DydKFIUKmisMnHkNlAdXl2NAJA=;
 b=BaYdiTMUAz3v5fMCMpxTbwsd8sjnvzwMPeiEIuz5kOM0ODHIN46gfpGPslQkykYyDM
 yVVm0S48FH+Mv47veFRBdjAjeI64yBqG1qiOZK2cH98mPNOyeDDcDJmeXrE6azJG/Gi8
 PTH0T0HE3GwbhYojBIx9X+cb4Yoi4je/NMxzpFZdAH7OrqRH0zMoh6f7l96Qac6zWnG1
 ffrKhGkir7gfLZSH/HhrKNr7OU8wnmlYwaMNoJcW1A+oCM1B1rbbtFNNOQ8M8I6MafwJ
 0BGEjkySawgoRLMaeJX1Xm9hIA68STHL2IhFz4OrK+eGxoOBJyo1nZoOYoWKOp7sJVuK
 /QMQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316sLPeUZXiBIQ+moTT9AW/juX8ytTVFscUcD/oAJvjFQcNUwp6
 8cjqiP8XQ8F5JLkLoLkXTmMdn9iLrMpQdLjP7+Q=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxR29nCv0ayjQ5JbTOJozfz23yR9sJ9Hguh9inQ6WMN44i1g4pQ2h9aaDFiqry8HJ/jSu7Di82bPpfBXhOwj/U=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:99b:b0:49f:eab4:4e7e with SMTP id
 u27-20020a056a00099b00b0049feab44e7emr9212736pfg.63.1637788239599; Wed, 24
 Nov 2021 13:10:39 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
From: Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:10:28 -0300
Message-ID: <CADs++6j5vuSeGzqT9S7=y412BA7M+ng9U9rgVjLRD9DZmaJs+g@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 17:09, Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU
Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
wrote:
>
> I think it's very rare for a user to look at those objects.

That's a matter of taste. For me one of the charms of Emacs is that
most objects have internal representations that I can inspect and
understand. Compiled functions are not like that, but when I need to
inspect a byte-compiled function foo-bletch that was defined in the
file foo.elc I can usually run (load "foo.el"), and this overrides the
byte-compiled foo-bletch with a non-byte-compiled version.

  Cheers,
    Eduardo Ochs
    http://angg.twu.net/#eev
    http://angg.twu.net/emacsconf2021.html

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:45:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163779029916276 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163779029916276
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:45:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 21:44:59 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55124 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mq04Z-0004ES-Ke
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:44:59 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:50664)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mq04X-0004ED-3L
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:44:59 -0500
Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 087271001C4;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:44:51 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 1812310016E;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:44:49 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637790289;
 bh=SxhVHmUrOCKsuPBf61WfTteYf0htUSJ79Kr3YmdmXi0=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=dM+Xqiy+Kyv7gGnoLyaYr7oeESdMMcBkizrx+iNuHO+ly0WhZqijM4/QijURHQxk3
 S6BKQfC9BznksyOYKsjQJY480/oXjzbTvJAZeYZpIE/rCWrah4zDJX9gwGzKa0uroS
 FT4xpvvF1sODHduPL++J/Wt2we/74+05ComO3CxZR8esJkPDsQBjX2wwUDWAJYLMsD
 y7ozbZ4zhmI7bvC2oIMFHYp6Tj0qqv6JyZ7seKJFNd3WIxV3oLbiuqgmJijK+2htgT
 xrcAc1To68hClS7p2JAkYlPhmkPmxmFx2vv0OFD2PiT8o3rpjFw0FkIRS7ZhItfyDA
 HAgBn1hyeWrWA==
Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D97B81201E4;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:44:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvsfvlp6tq.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:44:48 -0500
In-Reply-To: <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 (Philipp Stephani's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:16:18 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.095 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

>> Indeed, but I'm not sure what we can do about it.
> Maybe, once the non-lexical dialect is gone, we can make (closure (t)
> (lambda ...)) identical to (lambda ...) and then prefer the latter
> again.

That's sufficiently far into the future that i have no idea whether
it'll be a good idea ;-)


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:03:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163779134418138 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163779134418138
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:03:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 22:02:24 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55134 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mq0LQ-0004iU-9v
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:02:24 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:55417)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mq0LN-0004iC-0L
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:02:22 -0500
Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 10FC1805CC;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:02:15 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 3DE5A803D6;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:02:13 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637791333;
 bh=xYaacAd42lyPTvgOfiGWbQbPFCQc2iNVgSzOvOYYXR0=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=mSEUseoQFt73vqUaizUGdU+KboSBchnbefW/AYbqTYngEgULWxb1V8W8bPlPDksRB
 i4YqZCjZE6+FpjHP215K+wkJXv+yw/apSmuu1fIwPb7Th0LXluXn4lqnpXqQk8VpuH
 S6hkLfoGx56SEfWi1f3+Tknrew8vqvhaQEH0/8c1EeSFh67BjWjWZn75ZISrVHV6zg
 I3OdYAXOU0G+g43nLKoHCEtqBVXrWqxxhmKeX1eRq5zvf23mmhBKVNtHcA9cc9Ay4R
 ugnuc3CUupoxaye2k+EY7mboipZb9bKVmxkK99MEcVTZJGQG+BDSJ9GLo6601c9Q83
 nWoI6xjutLeNQ==
Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E62F120473;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:02:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvmtltp6px.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:02:12 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
 2021 22:14:03 +0200")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.093 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

>> > So I guess the warning about quoting lambdas with ' instead of #' is
>> > actually misleading people into getting these closures instead of the
>> > lambdas they might expect?
>> 
>> A value (lambda ...) is fundamentally a list.  The rest of the system
>> (e.g. the byte-compiler, flymake, ...) can't know if you intend to use
>> this list as a function, so it can't really look inside to compile its
>> body, warn you about typos in its body, or uses of obsolete
>> vars/functions, etc...
>
> I'm talking about evaluation, not about byte-compilation.
> This happened when Emacs was processing my init file.

I'm tlking neither specifically about evaluation nor compilation, I'm
just talking about the meaning of

    '(lambda ...)

which prevents our tools from looking at the code inside of it because
those tools can't tell whether it's supposed to contain source code or
just arbitrary data.

>> It's all about the difference between code and data ;-)
> What difference?  I always thought that in Emacs Lisp there's no such
> difference.

I think saying that "code is data" is misunderstood.  All it means is
that code is exposed as a kind of data, e.g. via macros.

But obviously not every piece of data is a valid and usable piece of code.
And when ELisp knows that a specific piece of data is actually a piece
of code, it can take the liberty to manipulate it accordingly under the
assumption that it's "somewhat opaque" and that the only thing we're
going to do with it is evaluate/run it rather than manipulate it with,
say, `car/cdr`.
E.g. when we load a .el file containing:

    (defun foo (xs) (dolist (x xs) (when x (message "%s" x))))

the `symbol-function` cell of `foo` will not contain

    (dolist (x xs) (when x (message "%s" x)))

> Does lexical-binding change that as well?

It makes the difference a bit bigger.


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:34:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163779321729409 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163779321729409
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:34:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 22:33:37 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55148 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mq0pa-0007eE-Dx
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:33:36 -0500
Received: from mail-pl1-f173.google.com ([209.85.214.173]:45688)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>) id 1mq0pV-0007dv-DL
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:33:33 -0500
Received: by mail-pl1-f173.google.com with SMTP id b11so3013539pld.12
 for <52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:33:29 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;
 h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version
 :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding;
 bh=QUI/U3ETxDFE12pL+lpFqptGQDnrJ6D4ImuXXH2q62I=;
 b=fJxkzpyISr1G0Vj/TAmkuKIh2L9gOmXqlnmXGpwaISICOZmsOeVTYDq1Ej5CRVgPew
 VM6RNUTbK88JrBu3iSK0DyBahsXJBgvfQLUw8UgfB868lV5Yb2raHgd48x+mSIoYP37B
 sR8+ywQW115ma/VP82TdUuBbTkJpyBOqGs+QlTZQABoEntQvVUJmTBoftbeK7LsiblgB
 CqdQe6LBr+5i2ENZ7TZonGgK9ZMjmIdH+9aeUlT3zb2rn36BO8Yc3594Z+75Ldi/oucq
 T9i+hhQ2ir+zfI0lNlPf7j9IEZtCqDPigBXsrC+cjRERN3xTi+oxzwgCpkGaR1YIpm4k
 rPiQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date
 :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding;
 bh=QUI/U3ETxDFE12pL+lpFqptGQDnrJ6D4ImuXXH2q62I=;
 b=kcRoFlW+XwYgT4eO6CT7uo3t2Ei70hLeLIszHGU22HSCWSe60IE61NBQ7FNaDUqxTm
 irUHo49a7hxo6RLXBB795rcx49IIp9leClSpUUoMl8wpgv7IaYyF/io7YZabWoUSn8HR
 O6Ehpei2+QQ5osEXBt4QRh5bj6c+FGLbmBTBEZ47D7a6dOauPiy+8zqNzyxudHc/K1GI
 6cS15wj+1x3pxHOFKEfJ8TxBi44l1G2QpmPU8VVJ4cUpclU2J/jLAvQn7u3hsmSJbn29
 +T63IgS8dS9jDa7xjDhfa3Ygi+Hkck6SP4jcKFXl8D7dd7ofFmu2MrrK9DBm6SQ0hbu5
 AO4A==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532n3vhBgQ5RqvVXV/RnLJbwEPg6yqulrkaG0+6uTYRUvuHuz3Uq
 KVcL1ALdIJ+PMmI/yMHrm8hgThgjJpE=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzFgv6eHMP34fgtaoUfRy56MfMi6E0Ko2r2LjCVV9+GRLP2R5wz2hDNP4+OtRQYvyM9SADyUw==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:2306:b0:141:e52e:457d with SMTP id
 d6-20020a170903230600b00141e52e457dmr23497559plh.3.1637793203242; 
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:33:23 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com.
 [76.168.148.233])
 by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id h6sm775935pfh.82.2021.11.24.14.33.22
 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:33:22 -0800 (PST)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <9a8c985a-7042-a81c-5bf0-5117982c9cdc@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:33:22 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

On 11/24/2021 12:14 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> I look at the values to make sure they are what I expect.  It's normal
> in Emacs to do that, isn't it?

I think in cases like that, it's useful to see the closure, since that's 
information that can help the user debug a problem. For example, if I 
have something like the following, it's helpful to see information about 
the closure:

   (let ((foo 1))
     (add-hook 'prog-mode-hook (lambda () (setq foo 1))))

In that case, the value of prog-mode-hook is:

   ((closure ((foo . 1) t) nil (setq foo 1)))

This is a contrived example, but similar sorts of things crop up in the 
real world. If the above example were significantly more complex (e.g. 
the `let' and the `add-hook' were in different functions), I might not 
realize that `foo' was lexically-bound unless I looked at the value of 
`prog-mode-hook' and saw the closure.

As such, I think the current behavior is better than simply showing what 
the user typed, i.e. "(lambda () ...)". That doesn't show the variables 
bound by the closure. However, the specific representation of the 
closure object could use some improvement. For example, I don't know 
what purpose the `t' and `nil' serve, although I'm sure both are useful 
to experts in some situations. Is there a way to represent all this 
information in a way that's easy for users to understand without 
expecting them to know the details of how closures are implemented in Emacs?

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:38:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163779347729785 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, fgunbin@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163779347729785
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:38:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 22:37:57 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55152 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mq0tp-0007kL-6Z
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:37:57 -0500
Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:47904)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1mq0tn-0007kB-1t
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:37:55 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org;
 s=20210101; t=1637793473;
 bh=kRA0wtDdryoa9UNJ9KcLVvWHWwOMQ1jfGeKrZzE1H58=;
 h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From;
 b=duG7Tf1pRi4TBUGHf07hHkHYw3hSDRKl2E8mXd50RXC40UBSDMtfzWxCbYuFlOnmJ
 gHh0h8mBcK0zfP3udxgyvmaOh/ODjjmvP9AW0VFzxVEDMkU+bP7ld0SJl1s4DgNP7k
 GCpjgLGWZRIll+/HzheSz4aTjZVFgzwvuyY2WHXRjQ4USuoHMhrKLSaotvdkUl6+h2
 S5U9UA9WFjmA8Hd0/+Dd4yaS3Aw6H17etsC8j+/CpOiSKxqV7jAvBbYTKSUa4RmrCx
 DmMvC6JpycUXhNO1+sPuOe6xorpczxkAbOxthcUtiofXIWmcLQO7p5uY1CpwcxdYt8
 fJ8STqxNux80A==
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:37:53 +0000
From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)


>> I'm annoyed by this misfeature.  If it means nothing to you and others, 
>> so be it.
>
> I fully understand desire to see function values printed as much as 
> possible as their original source code, but it's hard to reconcile this 
> with the needs of clean semantics, efficient execution, good code 
> analysis, ...
>

AFAIU, the fundamental question here is: is "(closure (t) args body)" 
different in any way from "(lambda args body)"?  If not, is there a good 
reason to use a "(closure (t)" instead of a "(lambda"?

FWIW, I'm running an Emacs with the following patch right now, which 
apparently breaks a couple of edebug tests in make check.  Apart from 
that, it seems that it doesn't change anything in the way Emacs behaves.

diff --git a/src/eval.c b/src/eval.c
index 94ad060773..5d02cabaf4 100644
--- a/src/eval.c
+++ b/src/eval.c
@@ -564,6 +564,8 @@ DEFUN ("function", Ffunction, Sfunction, 1, UNEVALLED, 
0,
      xsignal2 (Qwrong_number_of_arguments, Qfunction, Flength (args));

    if (!NILP (Vinternal_interpreter_environment)
+      && !(EQ (Fcar (Vinternal_interpreter_environment), Qt) &&
+          NILP (Fcdr (Vinternal_interpreter_environment)))
        && CONSP (quoted)
        && EQ (XCAR (quoted), Qlambda))
      { /* This is a lambda expression within a lexical environment;

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:43:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163779375730213 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163779375730213
          (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:43:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 22:42:37 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mq0yK-0007rD-OP
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:42:37 -0500
Received: from mail-pj1-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:42728)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>) id 1mq0yI-0007qw-1L
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:42:35 -0500
Received: by mail-pj1-f41.google.com with SMTP id
 fv9-20020a17090b0e8900b001a6a5ab1392so4063408pjb.1
 for <52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:42:33 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;
 h=subject:from:to:cc:references:message-id:date:mime-version
 :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding;
 bh=XOkH94W7Srvgl8a8c/jy6q2F2mPTVpIUBkA7EgQosSc=;
 b=N618CRXkmorVj0b1hpE0bCinGNjdb0wNSUqUajzdxmvJCSqsoujzhJ2dYWGXFXwL2x
 ZtDe1l/8+xYenWpNpBzNAmPTFDc4Nl4FOVuaOIbxYdJKTYDnJAkwyrBqUthEEuFdsja2
 1mhRokLfO8wLQmub0nGtrplgH4c3bhKwHDo68KMRBRozbes7uecR2D32DsZjYTpFEObu
 XZ/Lyoq9iLtZtTw81GuDo1vUtwXsv5F0OjoPbe+zovpfIXi4gs5J0e78kUns9Yx+t0sP
 XP375l4LBIgNY1Oy7GRUQXHvcibPbaxEViT4CFR7ONvWgGLgqOvTGISbuIjBYEM4Wfzs
 yW4w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:subject:from:to:cc:references:message-id:date
 :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding;
 bh=XOkH94W7Srvgl8a8c/jy6q2F2mPTVpIUBkA7EgQosSc=;
 b=k202w2v9HAwmajKsQJQvkMt84GbrFqUuKHDGm4bg3+ui5DEaS/seD0xE1JJ5S+b1cM
 nVRTfb8FietMAbLt9MVw+pOo+aYcSMDyJk3cWAGlmyJgzKujstslW0eKllIHwhgG8/Qs
 HBepUN9JFNSPF0hKRjV2fQg1iZOPc/DGfEpbKyn9AcGZ9zxwL27ySUjMW5+xzsTdMy1T
 f9jdYVFQ9srKg+RO8WBSFdKdMO6LShy0s3kPJbhzXQJ+/E1qcYrk5LPM9RehlmhB7Rni
 qlbZLVde0AS+kx+3VYlwKFfdutzwD3So91vb0gHc+Z81UUkv6ufMcpFOYNtMl1SjCNqk
 Zbmw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532MgqE4RMS8J4AZqdUtA+ZWZaWhNyqz6+NRvfF8IGwBTlv+QVQj
 oXfujTL9mCmuKVYjPSv6/fWku34WTd0=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJws7jFfwepr6cp3sUiEEZu8WXQX/17m5ue0NUEaxKNWqQEMvwx8AI62mLZN6ff30V3RPimNgw==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:be0c:: with SMTP id
 a12mr814838pjs.204.1637793747990; 
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:42:27 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com.
 [76.168.148.233])
 by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id n71sm745714pfd.50.2021.11.24.14.42.27
 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:42:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <9a8c985a-7042-a81c-5bf0-5117982c9cdc@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <e72d3874-dab3-fee8-c99c-6fa41a73beec@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:42:27 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <9a8c985a-7042-a81c-5bf0-5117982c9cdc@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

On 11/24/2021 2:33 PM, Jim Porter wrote:
> This is a contrived example, but similar sorts of things crop up in the 
> real world. If the above example were significantly more complex (e.g. 
> the `let' and the `add-hook' were in different functions), I might not 
> realize that `foo' was lexically-bound unless I looked at the value of 
> `prog-mode-hook' and saw the closure.

Sorry, this part isn't correct (at least, I don't think it is): "(e.g. 
the `let' and the `add-hook' were in different functions)". So just 
ignore that bit. :)

Nevertheless, it could be that the bound variables in a closure aren't 
what you'd expect, so I still think it's useful to see them somehow.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 00:10:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163779897023332 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163779897023332
          (code B ref 52063); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 00:10:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 00:09:30 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55300 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mq2KQ-00064G-1L
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:09:30 -0500
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]:33041)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <fgunbin@HIDDEN>) id 1mq2KL-00063y-7P
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:09:28 -0500
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45])
 by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7115C0183;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:09:20 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163])
 by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:09:20 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h=
 from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
 :mime-version:content-type; s=fm1; bh=4vmMBuTfViarAPTQkfAcWTlEL+
 GVT2PXo879a8wR8rs=; b=DSf9lyd5WZ+Tf53N8V8AzMu2lRSal5tQ6RQmLwQVT4
 uVQcP3DcrXkXY4g8ThB9vtrdqXU9u1qsylbQWqLOe+XzkICpCG7yCT9mr/JPrYKP
 i+MWLUJ+g7RHq4Doekj50AtB6YkBtJeEQU5YTXn7j4/sblcdsitdj6WuEvQZOLQj
 PGGWzwWz/1wDmJ7zTSEz5ent1M9e72zbVxm0zyequto3pDQngn8qPPI+c7Qj6CO2
 7tanls9ahhbIkVLBiEXanhfH7oTTjba7b6NZ2aiXNzSlx3KbPnf3Eik9s6YZD4r1
 0t6iNe0bycUPtxVowNrG0R2mTzcS6rrrxzE03VU1pXPw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=
 messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to
 :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy
 :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=4vmMBu
 TfViarAPTQkfAcWTlEL+GVT2PXo879a8wR8rs=; b=UJjYBKwcmUEVSMBIEpHv/g
 ITjooW8YxW62M0S2WjUiKmWz5JD6MWpKlid6KvbI4SkgMsNK5kxko5Jd1st+zVUZ
 MPzJ1fLOUimiMy7h4DtJWD494er5O5uCWKY01aetuzpphYkKHzrVgeCDPcqxhHXR
 WSLbk8MM3ntzCJuQVBmLST53zl8+aKQmpMBVc2sVE/p3XxGECjT9waH0bctwl9ww
 /vTBplSPczahma6+gCPqCa1+TRmXEpNgqCGmm84gecih53Pf25BSgvhmyWes8IEK
 PLtRRI39GLW8PKZyqaRr0hb9PPv+SGK7RcnjLDjI4POya6NdzJR4Wg4mWEYKlndw
 ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:L9SeYZP4P9BwrKLWsPuqSfUN4fjY5prj1-9BmyuiI42wIuKD8lZIxw>
 <xme:L9SeYb8ECw411nqsiTeGeHKv-Hs0pKHUnC7wLsNXLE63Fn9Nem66jlz2HVKG6a-MH
 ma_ncVh1TKr__iF>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:L9SeYYT3aNrgbAhckZZ66u9dOsEuO9mMZRMbt0Pxkp101ti7kZ1eoTEXkxmrs0OXEPxApjcpJqqRCgK2QZQU0D-3VqjeUCzOoKaF2ls>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrgeelgdduhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf
 curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu
 uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc
 fjughrpefhvffujghffgffkfggtgesthdtredttdertdenucfhrhhomhephfhilhhiphhp
 ucfiuhhnsghinhcuoehfghhunhgsihhnsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhmqeenucggtffrrg
 htthgvrhhnpedvveekffdvueevhfdutdejheekvdeufeevtedttdevuddugfeiffeiveei
 vefhtdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe
 hfghhunhgsihhnsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhm
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:L9SeYVtnpTdNekQqe-V-yz0EAOwTJohFghpvgN88bje1bSCU6aYF-Q>
 <xmx:L9SeYReIcLrUTs6wPGbxEGew7QKVvjJUAQAp9NgzL1oJOSmFpGaP6g>
 <xmx:L9SeYR04SWRaj2J7QvsjntPm20uGWf1FiKkl70vHDuBCEOYWJKXZMA>
 <xmx:MNSeYV6kI2wecs9EjMrkjoBnWJCKtidI9R0S-ZdELOL5QCltlFDJZA>
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed,
 24 Nov 2021 19:09:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message
 of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:37:53 +0000")
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:09:15 +0300
Message-ID: <m2czmpm6z8.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-)

On 24/11/2021 22:37 +0000, Gregory Heytings wrote:

>>> I'm annoyed by this misfeature.  If it means nothing to you and others,
>>> so be it.
>>
>> I fully understand desire to see function values printed as much as
>> possible as their original source code, but it's hard to reconcile this
>> with the needs of clean semantics, efficient execution, good code
>> analysis, ...
>>
>
> AFAIU, the fundamental question here is: is "(closure (t) args body)"
> different in any way from "(lambda args body)"?  If not, is there a good
> reason to use a "(closure (t)" instead of a "(lambda"?
>
> FWIW, I'm running an Emacs with the following patch right now, which
> apparently breaks a couple of edebug tests in make check.  Apart from
> that, it seems that it doesn't change anything in the way Emacs behaves.
>
> [..]

Please let's not do that.  We may need the context, that the function
originated as a closure, later for some reasons.  Rather, I like what
Stefan said, that we should keep the reference to the source.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 00:14:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163779922623713 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163779922623713
          (code B ref 52063); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 00:14:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 00:13:46 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55307 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mq2OY-0006AP-Iu
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:13:46 -0500
Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]:36387)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <fgunbin@HIDDEN>) id 1mq2OW-0006AB-5W
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:13:45 -0500
Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45])
 by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA6C5C01B4;
 Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:13:39 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163])
 by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:13:39 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h=
 from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id
 :mime-version:content-type; s=fm1; bh=egy0WDJ082eona+rNPMuZWncxZ
 djkfkd12T++USJZbY=; b=mWihaBx21puL3vTiCn3ul30zGwwRNGmgcWJB8dvUkP
 focrVRYcngPEPGlClO4aSZUBnkRKTZc3F23zjcmq/FrtDUXMkpj2tYGgo9SaDHDz
 L9gDfPj8jNpxS0mAKqcATPxwtCzypRNnCtpAulU1FPwgbRaDDkPF9B5S1SSbQfME
 tN4pP0h17Ylwnq6HOonuEbqk7HzzC3uNvdbUKHc2okjJ4vymBOwzYXlo8myPuhpy
 guEGXXtYtjlxO4rzyCCYLmf4o5ubcwN5VeugURWj0OHzOKK3Q8QzXfRW0FRTr7RX
 HYO1UK3V+8qqgfoxQIj17ykkl3ir+L7WLx5emfJeuTgw==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=
 messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to
 :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy
 :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=egy0WD
 J082eona+rNPMuZWncxZdjkfkd12T++USJZbY=; b=g1ab39S5d2pISTTSQ3bykp
 Tnw28s9JE7LlSz1xi+nPTpT0PvRpKvFAk4IIMBp16j30FyeaRPWKUvSR8rggJQ2t
 4mgks7OpZ1dUmJcxo1lVgnBkbfolixzW/4EGAWw1TI6h1W7vd1zD2wedVoQVFEIY
 kLEcn58TPeHztNbSYB5zG61sdt7GNrFcy4h7Fih1VhOy0QnubFUnXDMDms5GKIk8
 aIxhzW6W2A/YX/tmuYuxaqt+i0o2Q3FbXH2xUgmf8uw2MzbNoFtoL/tkENl2GEJ3
 927e8XZtJ1PoOZ4HOgQlDXOCy8cZ1THTza2Dx6Nb8nS+3usH7Cb348LYJMyakpEw
 ==
X-ME-Sender: <xms:MdWeYR3y-_mJnPZA35Ehm10gN30k_QrNKsr995vM30DQlVkawzUWDw>
 <xme:MdWeYYFAfmz3RTDNaMbIMd55MJG85V0_oVdU-XnJfzJf66jGG_OzJbswRFqBsD7-9
 3YykcJoF7k85-fL>
X-ME-Received: <xmr:MdWeYR61AeyF-CslXRvIkdmUVRCc94PKp-cB719hNNWhLJ6r2mEbeGy4x6s7Wputis6ZUDltpPzM9iz151c9mKgDj0Vl-_A-c4WaGcE>
X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrgeelgdduiecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf
 curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu
 uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc
 fjughrpefhvffujghffgffkfggtgesthdtredttdertdenucfhrhhomhephfhilhhiphhp
 ucfiuhhnsghinhcuoehfghhunhgsihhnsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhmqeenucggtffrrg
 htthgvrhhnpedvveekffdvueevhfdutdejheekvdeufeevtedttdevuddugfeiffeiveei
 vefhtdenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpe
 hfghhunhgsihhnsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfhhm
X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:MtWeYe19_kV9DZLu6MrOB5ergWaMhKaHw0pnYU-sZOgSUXM5_8C1ng>
 <xmx:MtWeYUFQPkt3jR2-Mb4i7YhY9KBNRPqB03ALykD1n7BzbYIv11lYFQ>
 <xmx:MtWeYf8tdeApVuKuOVacJzQCARavVb83AS961Qbm_mgWGba6ohs_7w>
 <xmx:M9WeYYC0L6O6qwantJUWuRl02D8v8HhbPbGZVMWOiyGZftm4dYmbWw>
Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed,
 24 Nov 2021 19:13:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 (Philipp Stephani's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:16:18 +0100")
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:13:35 +0300
Message-ID: <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-)

On 24/11/2021 21:16 +0100, Philipp Stephani wrote:

> Am Mi., 24. Nov. 2021 um 20:17 Uhr schrieb Stefan Monnier via Bug
> reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
> <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>:
>>
>> Filipp Gunbin [2021-11-24 21:18:43] wrote:
>> > On 24/11/2021 11:54 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> >>> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs?  Dynamic or lexical?
>> >> `lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere.
>> >> The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out.
>> > Yes, I know that eventually it'll be phased out, but then perhaps issues
>> > such as this need special attention..
>>
>> Indeed, but I'm not sure what we can do about it.
>
> Maybe, once the non-lexical dialect is gone, we can make (closure (t)
> (lambda ...)) identical to (lambda ...) and then prefer the latter
> again.

Or maybe we could just _print_ the closure objects in such a special
way that it's more pleasant to read, especially when there's actually
empty lexical environment.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:58:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163783067417322 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, fgunbin@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163783067417322
          (code B ref 52063); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:58:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 08:57:54 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55705 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqAZl-0004VJ-TJ
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:57:54 -0500
Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:42557)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1mqAZj-0004V5-43
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:57:52 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de;
 s=dbaedf251592; t=1637830657;
 bh=EJaq+GvTzVWCnVA9KSlg8Hi5rR7/e12mvBcn4+rOKZM=;
 h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To;
 b=UOlQY6piG50DPCTTLwiM+3xZYh1Rf6pWrHHeYZVIv7nlB0JzNWcuMrXObgWZCtvCh
 cHfiwLKxKySSTFCUDZXMqkdpRbkLbgJ00+pfygo3mMG9am+QqW7v5AFFWDR9U5WZge
 IgmbhdxYTCk6gSs54QnVppnilvRBaxwytlfPio0s=
X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9
Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.225.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106
 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MDdyH-1mx5Ox3nlP-00AdFZ; Thu, 25
 Nov 2021 09:57:37 +0100
From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:57:34 +0100
In-Reply-To: <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message
 of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:37:53 +0000")
Message-ID: <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:lbzWG0stk9m/yPSGBrOHYhthZoI9d1VYNmq9RDPRQ4NJ0VuztSx
 YbWZPBqWDFF+puuJIkTvhE1uMgBP9RBaVeRZMQfswCQAUrxd3oXfF4nif83WQtboBYOtqFY
 ffnRIK+DKfuUGw5T6Eoo3cet/LExZQ6dh3bWcz7aZ8gswINMKn+rjd8FOpyxt9QT/KYHXWn
 GhantIPkEM7ilztoCUQvg==
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:UG7M2H0/pBU=:SN4I8KaQnU364wHh6oI4e1
 wuoMP12jU9wLMsyVXrr5GsgeH4TaCi+YVvXMnL0tA5Y47ne/nWDfLq+hYvUpLkcfcKYl/eE7x
 ywOztIUnTOHYS2y2IjMm5LWGzR0nkvWageSlHyof640V4juIJN4CAr7I72BgNySN3K9NlXz42
 lgwqMgtCZQKoeyYch3CKNk8uRVPi+Y/mEddLTmm2ptsxrFDOt2WS8YA9z9G+b6hU6/6C5BjYh
 CLMkpf7r7RBNzpsoTBoEiF1Yv7R1bgI8TFGY0p4AMUqPNpcNpDW8otbECBGf4cUF+hJgh8PX+
 rRISfmeRwKXmHdKuREDzTXKGD1aD+QNvdSjmCgHqGT4Py2hzNydDESeUeRm9EFqdjBgnN4n3S
 cKvwjXFT4Adey8WAOTzqXyQZqPt4GaYZqIbg2dsTefBHN/4yXqSYMZsRPUvBy85NcIEO6glRR
 vyC8/krQBLZsmYBYZm1rtA08ibGd2veH5YH84GzUbxkquQSYkxMF171TY4ADB4ZMXOr3EszvG
 yFrFhw3D2R5vl1x1eM3ZAz3NOGAivUzPyccu2WapdKn5hJvuKUHN6DaFCFaxPlZcGpNGQ/RnD
 3MExEXSrz+YIkRoTbg/FfStZ+F7QM1t7UzD/gWPlZ5+uO2KYJi2OH+rx1CqVRirJHi3vE+K3f
 kJlFG7rN1UEyDTqfNUmXnUr/feQw3La5KEXE9UuraaYopovWPyvn5zGsLR9rs34SFkoxyDyOv
 3EY4bXqJlK7mRs9XzrX+bQqP9xncZ+FNF+tVofqArAR3f1H9yDpIXa9jAyyl7L9Enl8ymqXTN
 932o5V1HlfNT1evy/xIopLbZs5tPwrsf+ifStXzqurqw9aAqf0WinAgNOm9/aG/sviSuqjBK8
 /0Zj9PpvnVwraXXOOo8dCOZQUu8W3DZqsxnc34xWvoR76dYQslHkzIwGJhAe7shRvfjbTa7RY
 IKsRJjxUghPGnYZXUhXuuDx7l7W4yv1FRgKfmWdiMX7ZBawvLu5Kzoi1anczlRbRMUW0yWjFk
 +uoC5G4vzgyV/GyaR+bf+L+UyHSCeDKyd/Nl4MHwlzOUhJQB+NWneC3/6QQoVjzEIrn7daFIH
 oLHYBYAOJSbDEM=
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-)

Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes:

> AFAIU, the fundamental question here is: is "(closure (t) args body)"
> different in any way from "(lambda args body)"?  If not, is there a
> good reason to use a "(closure (t)" instead of a "(lambda"?

This is my question, too.  But not only: any anonymous function that
doesn't reference any part of its environment could (?) also be
represented as a lambda list.  With other words: only "real" closures
would be represented as (closure ...).  That would make inspection of
values and things like debugging easier.

Michael.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:10:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16378457816649 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Cc: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, fgunbin@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16378457816649
          (code B ref 52063); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:10:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 13:09:41 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56147 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqEVR-0001jB-3Q
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:09:41 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:39998)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqEVP-0001ix-Bz
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:09:40 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=1eKdW3zlcaekWgPmcws8WfUzKaHvebyl6DFLHcbIauA=; b=uyJyyGZ7WYrrbweATQtrwA7WLE
 m42kdmkIX4pbrlnAsYi1by1BFYeqAn+tBaoBVChov+MuYxbF2nPDl9+Y79FcvcPwxx/EQhIDMokZr
 ISMbRXzET8qCdrg1BR2niwLE7xVAqsXcKaDIB9im3pg9MAntOmRtnobmatF1mM+/rt+Q=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mqEVD-0003hn-As; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:09:30 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEUECRYkP1l5orj/
 //+sHS1BAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGQw7GPZYh58AAAFeSURBVCjPZdFBa8IwFAfw
 F9GCnjy0gv0Ag+1TZKDCPD0lCWvPrcx8CtlhsJsFI8zTDq0s+ZR7SaMM9i7tj4THe//AFGLV7QTu
 VYskfBkKgO7UI4NkAebE/P+wAnYC1WPUcHiD5DTwmCmDexj0yEtnNCSH0ODJUd2g/2N2CBO4iHEP
 ZTXow9wP42wmc2b5a0D3nOal5RVh4My1LqzmSEjci+6c2fewY2q+rBjvMdF21WNiITm7SwoeeQuz
 TtuIb9pNWwwoj8A2TkagRxGusYL6rwzBJyClgHUjQ5qTL23wERcpUDo5LdNZoOMbuo3rYTUBTUTu
 mk7s2pBam8nGoN6HPAU1l0IV4QkwkyhRlQFSMK64WvvRRjQaYfuBEZiJ7XsE4LzbnU14UIDpw8/1
 0/kVfHa7YrN0/l4V+kOqeQCFlEllIxDySx0BAmarbO9B+9L+w0xF+EJ2vIPBHwBnx19TzH+DE4Aj
 WAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0xMS0yNVQxMjo1OToyNCswMDowMMEvBCYAAAAldEVY
 dGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMTEtMjVUMTI6NTk6MjQrMDA6MDCwcryaAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC
X-Now-Playing: Namasenda's _Unlimited Ammo - Infinity_: "=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=98=86?= (Feat. Oklou)"
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:09:25 +0100
In-Reply-To: <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Thu, 25
 Nov 2021 09:57:34 +0100")
Message-ID: <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: >
 Gregory
 Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: > >> AFAIU, the fundamental question
 here is: is "(closure (t) args body)" >> different in any way from "(lambda
 args body)"? If not, is there a >> go [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes:

> Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> AFAIU, the fundamental question here is: is "(closure (t) args body)"
>> different in any way from "(lambda args body)"?  If not, is there a
>> good reason to use a "(closure (t)" instead of a "(lambda"?
>
> This is my question, too.  But not only: any anonymous function that
> doesn't reference any part of its environment could (?) also be
> represented as a lambda list.  With other words: only "real" closures
> would be represented as (closure ...).  That would make inspection of
> values and things like debugging easier.

A closure has lexical binding inside itself, though, which lambdas do
not have.  So checking for an empty lexical environment isn't sufficient
to decide whether to try to convert back to a lambda or not -- you have
to do some deep inspection.  (See code snippet that demonstrates the
issue in an earlier post of mine.)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:16:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.16378461207251 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16378461207251
          (code B ref 52063); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 13:16:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 13:15:20 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqEau-0001st-0M
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:15:20 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:40060)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqEaq-0001sY-St
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:15:18 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=T+MIsIEVHJWDHqHsBN4c+xnXRiFdbbiWxidiD7X3grg=; b=M8Tv7oLi11Tm0Go1K3Jy/UiKM3
 CQ/Y0s9rIQRHY4bgHXcqbgVGjJf0Q9SsCj4v/SfGDhoIoVnL7CX2x89Z/zSzz2SHukKVJ/Pi0lyHa
 l1VWnRCQyrIV3LWIVMbugE/1rCOcLhZq+l7JBt6hTXpXDdLtvFOeb2WkO4vH1IvGVxWY=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mqEad-0003lO-Rc; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:15:06 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEUECRYkP1l5orj/
 //+sHS1BAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGQw7GPZYh58AAAFeSURBVCjPZdFBa8IwFAfw
 F9GCnjy0gv0Ag+1TZKDCPD0lCWvPrcx8CtlhsJsFI8zTDq0s+ZR7SaMM9i7tj4THe//AFGLV7QTu
 VYskfBkKgO7UI4NkAebE/P+wAnYC1WPUcHiD5DTwmCmDexj0yEtnNCSH0ODJUd2g/2N2CBO4iHEP
 ZTXow9wP42wmc2b5a0D3nOal5RVh4My1LqzmSEjci+6c2fewY2q+rBjvMdF21WNiITm7SwoeeQuz
 TtuIb9pNWwwoj8A2TkagRxGusYL6rwzBJyClgHUjQ5qTL23wERcpUDo5LdNZoOMbuo3rYTUBTUTu
 mk7s2pBam8nGoN6HPAU1l0IV4QkwkyhRlQFSMK64WvvRRjQaYfuBEZiJ7XsE4LzbnU14UIDpw8/1
 0/kVfHa7YrN0/l4V+kOqeQCFlEllIxDySx0BAmarbO9B+9L+w0xF+EJ2vIPBHwBnx19TzH+DE4Aj
 WAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0xMS0yNVQxMjo1OToyNCswMDowMMEvBCYAAAAldEVY
 dGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMTEtMjVUMTI6NTk6MjQrMDA6MDCwcryaAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC
X-Now-Playing: Namasenda's _Unlimited Ammo - Infinity_: "=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=98=86?= (=?UTF-8?Q?=C3=96?= Remix)"
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:15:03 +0100
In-Reply-To: <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> (Filipp Gunbin's message of "Thu, 25
 Nov 2021 03:13:35 +0300")
Message-ID: <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview:  Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> writes: > Or maybe we
 could just _print_ the closure objects in such a special > way that it's more
 pleasant to read, especially when there's actually > empty lexical environment.
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> writes:

> Or maybe we could just _print_ the closure objects in such a special
> way that it's more pleasant to read, especially when there's actually
> empty lexical environment.

(pp-emacs-lisp-code (lambda () (setq foo bar) (setq foo bar)))
=>
(closure
 (t)
 nil
 (setq foo bar)
 (setq foo bar))

Slightly less confusing, but perhaps it should be

(closure (t) nil
  (setq foo bar)
  (setq foo bar))

Depends on the length of the lexical list, though:

(pp-emacs-lisp-code
 (let ((bar 1))
   (lambda (f) (setq foo bar) (setq foo bar))))
=>
(closure ((bar . 1) t) (f)
  (setq foo bar)
  (setq foo bar))

can be unwieldy if the list is long.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:09:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163784931417495 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, fgunbin@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163784931417495
          (code B ref 52063); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:09:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 14:08:34 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56211 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqFQP-0004Y0-1L
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:08:33 -0500
Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:46171)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1mqFQM-0004Wu-UP
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:08:32 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de;
 s=dbaedf251592; t=1637849297;
 bh=O0unsffutssqC/FjfGFmnnWSFpnzOL5fC3NcYTXLBJQ=;
 h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To;
 b=LlKpmhOG8Eag4mYnue6DtXpxK4fVyIqvBf48zSzHiThDFtL04UBxTXDxn74ZmHTv6
 1GtRrWlCoaNgifStBUp8k1LPlOBJjDj5HjcbrAImTcMAAJInjQmZdAg8RdYJULDwR2
 ZzcMRvUeBVEkYbUDh9dacvqMdUs1Vii5FRa2btes=
X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9
Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.225.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005
 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MpCqh-1mHCes2a11-00qWV0; Thu, 25
 Nov 2021 15:08:17 +0100
From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 15:08:16 +0100
In-Reply-To: <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu,
 25 Nov 2021 14:09:25 +0100")
Message-ID: <87ee74tjjj.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8rGxMAG6/TynSM0bpcGzOkFaFX9u+/fwkekDzLht+6BmYXJqfOJ
 nLW+uUh/Oe+uP1jJ4ZpsngBoToBranYk8lt5m9EP5BpdLn4XgDZWvlRkCZmOxO3JFpvMQzj
 rdaFtAKQcxN6RuIGb0ITX77PTqxDa6gsaCIYDnX59iiLXcopexDvI3voT5veK3DvryVpWnL
 7kPUTg9xDr8xszv37/B3g==
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:k5KKjhk7tAQ=:OQrJ7PNYT/7PRQCI0x9sK5
 3bfRPspXFoFShKUHyRUxL5iBRE92sdwOklTUcas3dZzTY1FbnMUWiHah7ZhKG7RTagumPDb7y
 7eURqzAWLjovh+hEBZmev7A11+WIw4PR13MHonsKlnvgEHFUd5HmXJoFNqtRrWClXSzQ/v1Cp
 20mjTRzs6qKSf5gtIK5DAlLvXXYd99b08WKa5v0cf5T3iLIC1zuaqEWGVFNd9T+XSp+Z0za7N
 vdg272qmrWwaRY9/AbUjKYfkb8CJkP6mKljNBt8tXorTDE9dOsnRawd/4RTqwSx85khgf1DrF
 YV/+5QIpKOKdkR17Z+E3Mbbd0EYFNBQ5NthayuNT99pcLi3mkePnPVSWQg+SPG8ChuJtJqmL9
 4vovTj6fkZw++RWHFaLX9lWIGHo9AtBnAuUKdd45HTMYYJ4yma8AZPV+uS+FFuUaQKcK4HKZ6
 SBuExomCMCSggFAkTePxFjtTiseOJBBThdBTXee6soleOpn61WxrRRup1LCAi0mHAqP+XXJ2G
 pmoYJ+zdXQaoe7x+KjLYtCREQtnliuSvTj30UofD1msJjgQeh/VtZS6Aj4ZrmNrXxU/11iIQp
 aoz4PKFayYYlbOkUvP/RZfLRVJpL0+DG3qVmGTsRs2Ww9+8nj9yio/CunibwwjhQQ8C+qR+Co
 MppL4pjCtA9dATxLKOrz4Q6nDcDbst88D7OqVzrJqpM4F+AJPw8qj7BjCAWtI5U5mKGSZR23P
 93M4qxj9FFnFyAh67glYwb1W3m9S1HpRYWhBdeD3qR7+usof7yGsk+wfok/BmIJLikE4qqC4l
 4jOidn+8vACG86p82luVXNyfuvK4j0wrGQqHDxdlWaG/S/E9nKS9zTocCzjZFnvTur093dTzC
 vi/9v/AlVir4hHiqFw6b1GDYb+n37h6QY3wkjy4XphLgVa48WC9+leTjv/Ug7UpmxbmGOpXBs
 uGXENEV4Y8O1FQ6ntwdrhFyz3mmf6ZW6yG3H5g+ovqSSz2XcerWroZ6o+WwNGMy36q/hyeyfn
 ZDDzIJ+CpY3xjkk1gm/pnBzJz20sJM7r8dF1PT4vHw65WcGhAQcEqnb/loMkVxlUpiaGFa2v5
 7uVSPA+iNbQ8FI=
X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-)

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> A closure has lexical binding inside itself, though, which lambdas do
> not have. [...]  (See code snippet that demonstrates the issue in an
> earlier post of mine.)

Oh - indeed.  Then those function values have fundamentally different
semantics when funcalled, and it's good that they are represented
differently.

My guess would be that the decision "can be translated into a lambda" in
the general case is either expensive or not even decidable.

Michael.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:40:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163785115423660 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, fgunbin@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163785115423660
          (code B ref 52063); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:40:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 14:39:14 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56290 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqFu6-00069V-Ga
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:39:14 -0500
Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:48888)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1mqFu2-000690-Cx
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:39:12 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org;
 s=20210101; t=1637851149;
 bh=bDAEgg/c0iimwGFCdk+qJe5nk54jrw4yk15IcNzV9nM=;
 h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From;
 b=T1VztPSil9/byR5atseNxtHAsZ4J6a6X5uOfwOQgzaSH6EQur5aGXxzB3T+oLb78D
 ccHfrletd4HXOkfKZ1sjas9MUSSsKR3rIGgszGr6/GJh5m9lC9C3Kd2njzy0ksfRYq
 w21eWJ2EjCZIJ6CBUCwmfSHQS3y612fmGBf2eoFUT7KEOY6JsNNh6gDo/YizkPqc1z
 w0G1PB646XzFjK/weU0fs5hQICQyg7eHeFzwL5A9HPh81Fty0qDI9bz7pb5TmpREiz
 nUwWTNkPgAzzDuMzHjnEzRwF0V0zoW/1etUbCGOyORrqAgGPVpKSCW7er5Z1u4a3OJ
 tLFlqvRp7aThg==
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:39:09 +0000
From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <612d659daa9b57b79782@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)


>
> A closure has lexical binding inside itself, though, which lambdas do 
> not have.  So checking for an empty lexical environment isn't sufficient 
> to decide whether to try to convert back to a lambda or not -- you have 
> to do some deep inspection.  (See code snippet that demonstrates the 
> issue in an earlier post of mine.)
>

Indeed, that was the counter-example I tried to find.  I should read your 
posts more carefully ;-)  My initial feeling, that (closure (t) args body) 
is not equivalent to (lambda args body), was correct after all.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 19:08:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163786727811335 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163786727811335
          (code B ref 52063); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 19:08:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 19:07:58 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58042 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqK69-0002wj-Pl
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:07:57 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:20463)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mqK67-0002wW-7U
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:07:56 -0500
Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 9EFBE10025F;
 Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:07:49 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 3C55E100134;
 Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:07:48 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637867268;
 bh=/ko9lg0BV7lYe/97ExcdcuBAb7VkIWKkim86ItHPfq0=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=FVCN7XPMKgIBkIMPhqUO5ZIQ6nhVfToUxcJaASC9CsWCF/2fml5SFukaQMNpqu58F
 4WEfv5F4XRC3KDmRNGtu1G1wLYsk59EFlbLSRX4Hp5xmTZv9MU2Veub235TGZmdr/Z
 xH5FHK3X77ZU0Kh6Yws2xuJ7pFh2QJTQkJtMxcpNyOL8yoOrRUIIrqJOiBjcazh78u
 BN58gcHKILNd2EDtnHcQSld/C4DdjTE1tLvKASh0Z6WADVZJCOxCZN1WKcZyl2w7VB
 vJpGysu+dVI9u69iXqDfPvsPzzxCMXYZr3rxlYdUe7uWMn3J2vuCGFuR6RvAzSERPi
 iKaUdt3Ks8f4Q==
Received: from alfajor (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 25BAC12010B;
 Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:07:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:07:45 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu,
 25 Nov 2021 14:15:03 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL 0.145 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> Depends on the length of the lexical list, though:
>
> (pp-emacs-lisp-code
>  (let ((bar 1))
>    (lambda (f) (setq foo bar) (setq foo bar))))
> =>
> (closure ((bar . 1) t) (f)
>   (setq foo bar)
>   (setq foo bar))
>
> can be unwieldy if the list is long.

[ Taking a step back and ignoring practical concerns like whether it's
  easy to implement efficiently.  ]

We could have something like:

    (let ((foo 1)
          (bar 2)
          (baz 5))
      (lambda (x) (+ x bar)))

return an object like

    (closure (x) ((bar . 2))
      (+ x bar))

instead of the current

    (closure ((baz . 5) (bar . 2) (foo . 1) t) (x)
      (+ x bar))

IOW, the final `t` can be dispensed with, we could swap the arglist and
the captured environment, and we could filter the environment to only
include variables which are actually used inside the function.


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 19:57:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163787018515771 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163787018515771
          (code B ref 52063); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 19:57:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 19:56:25 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58080 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqKr3-00046J-8m
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:56:25 -0500
Received: from mail-pl1-f175.google.com ([209.85.214.175]:36694)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>) id 1mqKr1-000465-BJ
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:56:24 -0500
Received: by mail-pl1-f175.google.com with SMTP id u11so5243579plf.3
 for <52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:56:23 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112;
 h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:mime-version
 :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding;
 bh=q3UphxP4g+0omeFnMd+VQngpiV78P2Pah2TghrNvzpw=;
 b=W6E5CyuZgH5MMV97MEhXjmqXWtx9fNwoA5vvaSBdmn33PbbOsCK976YTIUOKa4YJmV
 SbvIapqJYNoUXEVoXPGFXhk5LesbTN68k17OmIopnxKiOPvXOjaG3j1Jw+Xay646p53D
 kN0/yrKxfCkGLK0TF8zyO1gXxlWRTDZJ46GwMx9msWwS0a4/9h3tmKiBfdUGj8msAdDo
 0LGvwISKzHkhnL9oMVncBfJQeZJvq22QAnm3oKT8RobTt4lI2JpTnHjXwKL6TeNOnKKh
 8usz6CZJmX6cHGOWExG4gQSFKH0BmN6odSRtySGPO7hfzzLWWlYMcSSj5zn3QiBQ8jzi
 waOw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=1e100.net; s=20210112;
 h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date
 :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding;
 bh=q3UphxP4g+0omeFnMd+VQngpiV78P2Pah2TghrNvzpw=;
 b=tt/eZ5G6gznhLCvk2y4i6kXMtZ3hQQxm6ZcXzD0VeUu2+SgSI7+cvVtfZHuQABnrx/
 jdkoGgqE0XRyGEKAX2tQR5jTew00NdOIMmtzPjhn5HH+yNe9Cxd7PKWKVF8GczLvHt89
 N89WcmtSItCcHbfG6ANHvzqdo7NBR5vszs686lfjYIawRe/QsmmuMWlprXgovh0krLJe
 rwrYWwsP/O/IsZSpqXnNkSv3OD9g/+b+xalOL4lDLpSM6TqkI5R7FhfQh/+iuaJegK9+
 yqzOsurxfizYeozbBbK3JWVwNl/ZZicu51vjy4zR995XCHcPOcHCM8w+FVZri5zlpZ3p
 HxQw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530nAOlt0lO2/omVWzgNIwTfPS5GEHWjZSf5MKHet6e/lfGEdpBm
 8g4zDDT7mXlFlnQc76SPg4B1yYqMtY8=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx6jfz540oEBBrzU2lchCwJaKzaf6ayn/s7qept7uKYHp10rwRuYJsfl+5ecJKCXmCmNgaPpQ==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4b47:: with SMTP id
 o7mr10299246pjl.92.1637870177393; 
 Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:56:17 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [192.168.1.2] (cpe-76-168-148-233.socal.res.rr.com.
 [76.168.148.233])
 by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d9sm9650289pjs.2.2021.11.25.11.56.16
 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
 Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:56:17 -0800 (PST)
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <f639287a-a72b-8d4e-e22c-1d323d9fb2e5@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:56:16 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-)

On 11/25/2021 11:07 AM, Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, 
the Swiss army knife of text editors wrote:
> IOW, the final `t` can be dispensed with, we could swap the arglist and
> the captured environment, and we could filter the environment to only
> include variables which are actually used inside the function.

It might be nice to print an empty arglist as "()" instead of "nil" too. 
While both of those are equivalent, I think "()" is more idiomatic when 
showing an arglist. Currently we have:

   (lambda () (setq foo 1))
   ;; => (closure (t) nil (setq foo 1))

In that case, since there's no captured variables and no args, it might 
be nicer to show it as:

   (closure () () (setq foo 1))

Or even:

   (closure () (setq foo 1))

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:27:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163792961031261 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163792961031261
          (code B ref 52063); Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:27:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 12:26:50 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58868 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqaJV-000889-N3
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 07:26:49 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:51142)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqaJT-00087t-Ts
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 07:26:48 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID
 :In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-ID:
 Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc
 :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:
 List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=81p5YCfuw2zRtwbCNke4MKjLBLE4UOLLArCetnMqpnM=; b=NZVhwkzJifmdR1HwyzSGG4lZvw
 2SLEYbONglKc9QM7esBqUzqaQ20udXeq3HVeeEfcEPcfTiZIZbVs48hUpcR91OGXc5PeIno0/v9kr
 x4wg6/iKztqXcJVQdNTw7Xh0BJlIr0Xl2nsaenyK1+J05tOObh9YHhj2S1nq7mzNshl4=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mqaJI-0004Zr-NX; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:26:39 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
X-Now-Playing: Sylvain Chauveau's _Simple_: "Strangers Forever"
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:26:34 +0100
In-Reply-To: <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message
 of "Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:07:45 -0500")
Message-ID: <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > We could
 have something like: > > (let ((foo 1) > (bar 2) > (baz 5)) > (lambda (x)
 (+ x bar))) > > return an object like > > (closure (x) ((bar . 2)) > (+ x
 bar)) > > instead of the current > > (clo [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:

> We could have something like:
>
>     (let ((foo 1)
>           (bar 2)
>           (baz 5))
>       (lambda (x) (+ x bar)))
>
> return an object like
>
>     (closure (x) ((bar . 2))
>       (+ x bar))
>
> instead of the current
>
>     (closure ((baz . 5) (bar . 2) (foo . 1) t) (x)
>       (+ x bar))

That does seem a lot more readable (and makes the similarities to
`lambda' more obvious.  Could we go one further and do

     (closure (x)
       (environment ((bar . 2)))
       (+ x bar))

or something like that?  And in that case, we could just say even say that

     (lambda (x)
       (declare (environment ((bar . 2))))
       (+ x bar))

is how to represent this.  =F0=9F=98=80  (I.e., a `lambda' with a `declare
environment' is a closure.)

(Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas,
which I think we should anyway.)

--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:29:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163792971831458 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163792971831458
          (code B ref 52063); Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:29:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 12:28:38 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58873 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqaLG-0008BK-2a
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 07:28:38 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:51166)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqaLE-0008B5-4m
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 07:28:36 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=jruw4WT8f8NDBGZ6cSDRuqy6cIzkukRHkIjIao5X2N8=; b=PyO3wBWI5I2cJGFcggm+NwZ3dZ
 FoheWLEQgB7TcQMBWyIve2Mk3RUfkikyTGunHe2CcfB/FehJuPBv7tZRcn5H3u9npoVuhKuWuWKFo
 272eSdrtZjXhEs2J1SaKkBmERper70x86ESIUQqF6ulaYYdI/4PtrCeWxtFflMNwKsCM=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mqaL4-0004aF-03; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:28:28 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <f639287a-a72b-8d4e-e22c-1d323d9fb2e5@HIDDEN>
X-Now-Playing: Sylvain Chauveau's _Simple_: "Blanc (live)"
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:28:25 +0100
In-Reply-To: <f639287a-a72b-8d4e-e22c-1d323d9fb2e5@HIDDEN> (Jim Porter's
 message of "Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:56:16 -0800")
Message-ID: <875ysf9k46.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> writes: > It might be nice
 to print an empty arglist as "()" instead of "nil" > too. While both of those
 are equivalent, I think "()" is more > idiomatic when showing an arglist.
 Currently we have: > > (lambd [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> writes:

> It might be nice to print an empty arglist as "()" instead of "nil"
> too. While both of those are equivalent, I think "()" is more
> idiomatic when showing an arglist. Currently we have:
>
>   (lambda () (setq foo 1))
>   ;; => (closure (t) nil (setq foo 1))

The printer used here is a general Lisp printer, and doesn't know
anything about the semantics.  (And I don't think we can change that.)
But Emacs 29 has a language-aware pp variant, which does what you
suggest:

(lambda () 'foo)
=> (closure (t) nil 'foo)

(pp-emacs-lisp-code '(closure (t) nil 'foo))
=> (closure (t) ()
     'foo)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:14:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163793244212502 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163793244212502
          (code B ref 52063); Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:14:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 13:14:02 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58965 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqb3B-0003FM-Ky
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:14:01 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:48863)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mqb3A-0003F9-4W
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:14:00 -0500
Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 7DA1A8037A;
 Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:13:54 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 066C1806A7;
 Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:13:53 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637932433;
 bh=+Alt92c6VPHgA/KwNeX9JH7iMh4wni1u8T1A/S1xtYE=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=d2R8R9p+81/1NypvQ/mXthB0IkummnW1JeYtwzcya5YWdUelv/KBuPrnpuqEKI9hi
 3QoOXgQtCn5a49ZJ20xUoNTeeBy6UMwOdEwUiJR2fb2y7eGIcOsUoBnFBEIRtTbpe2
 oIxt0J8DAYjbQrpjT+18GkvhgiyGTZCjMTgfFTMrY3wV9kTNWS3+Cvkxh3ans0fEBW
 1ICfIJO+z203DR7CxAyi9KgHVXuW9Yp/Z/+bhCjzGe/r1qUWioG917qYROwKvX5Fzt
 iH5SfOycFJu/TsEFGhM9fuwqXvN5+frZVMiadj5KZbZPYMh6tZtmGfo2i5OVPE56on
 05Zd7fyK5WYaA==
Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AE7591204BA;
 Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:13:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:13:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri,
 26 Nov 2021 13:26:34 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.093 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> or something like that?  And in that case, we could just say even say that
>
>      (lambda (x)
>        (declare (environment ((bar . 2))))
>        (+ x bar))
>
> is how to represent this.  =F0=9F=98=80  (I.e., a `lambda' with a `declare
> environment' is a closure.)
>
> (Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas,
> which I think we should anyway.)

I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation
of function values: those never occur in source code.


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:23:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163793295813319 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163793295813319
          (code B ref 52063); Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:23:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 13:22:38 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58970 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqbBW-0003Sl-Il
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:22:38 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:51658)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqbBU-0003SW-PY
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:22:37 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=gSgxW1VoU7TsA8rHE9aVUcI+3mIMKAmdEnB84RhW6Cs=; b=gBuHQZMcfvkk1yqspNUySK/98I
 LyUzj+wnC5CaU/VxRhDlXNp2ZUBm2u9hdlX2ze7HiVo6yeT3kED1b9J885PCxveZ0R+LGAVHAqDqQ
 wz9JZF3UqWa+Ix1K49sIykWhuvmKFQBmlLFO/SY5qIg5skU6OVsax5kVPd756Mbro3rw=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mqbBJ-0004vf-UV; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:22:28 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwCAMAAABg3Am1AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAM1BMVEU0UUk5ZWJFYWRS
 iGxdnKwzQDVGXIgjKSk1NkhKN2NbUpsfIB+ZWaAaGRkOGhiYLy////+aMabgAAAAAWJLR0QQlbIN
 LAAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGg0RJdIswn8AAAFsSURBVEjHtdTRkoMgDAVQxK2AafT//7YhGAkIYjuztzN9
 yjEh2BojmSiWMkv+mjEv+mRRkrkJKKbfZh6BSOydYaCEjHa0uqIECjFlIozhkoC7Ct0lZ6EwcC0y
 dcTC4CBDwSSBRMZiyoCEKU1HnMA5Y14PWpzA+9dwUTEH8AT8eLVULyDlQb3xUlwJfp8ajzfeN4FN
 b+Bk6+kr4E3gWJ3itLHAh0tsGR49g3ZUvVPpg5MEX4BVslDJwoVLGR4eUg7w5qy9eDijO1RItSjB
 u0rCWgUHSlzAVeuRRiDFIwKggLiWeMVhDaFdHxwiorQwKKFn0PrStevVUT3kegbcD1Wos3pdQDdQ
 HRoBvluQp4xBxb8F+BNwbbBtG++h2EV7pC0G6X9tp8SCuG9Vf+mw7y6Wpm/QC29vCbiUN0mNYrVz
 94dOI+lHHDNBf0uAnfz/PeDPACD/PtxImLtTtoR0AHjEvjwDg/KadOQGtwJ8AJQxSMhavXeTAAAA
 JXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTExLTI2VDEzOjE3OjM3KzAwOjAwZiMwYwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0
 ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMS0yNlQxMzoxNzozNyswMDowMBd+iN8AAAAASUVORK5CYII=
X-Now-Playing: Ulrich Schnauss's _Goodbye_: "Goodbye"
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:22:25 +0100
In-Reply-To: <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message
 of "Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:13:51 -0500")
Message-ID: <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > I sense
 a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation > of
 function
 values: those never occur in source code. Yes, but we're able to funcall
 those runtime representations. So that doesn't really make much of a
 difference here, I think? 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:

> I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation
> of function values: those never occur in source code.

Yes, but we're able to funcall those runtime representations.  So that
doesn't really make much of a difference here, I think?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:27:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163793319413694 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163793319413694
          (code B ref 52063); Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:27:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 13:26:34 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58975 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqbFK-0003Yo-1n
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:26:34 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:51686)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqbFI-0003Yc-9j
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:26:32 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=RsljZsadp9udpQtrQPNiKEaiq/Ulm1p+9DPaX4x7xlM=; b=r584tRpG1SAUvYTGoGQXyMksyG
 t67rrwg7+PGIM5vxO2yeJiEmLQBFddpo8M4CcQAjHOfqq4oqb+Xl3DGvMkJxQuRWBtBnrzpbA3Zi2
 1/tCpWYSPlccU0z7WywhCKpaeJt7jf5Cajw7MWHp0pbZtSEZbQqe/E7mpBOS8gL086Iw=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mqbF8-0004ya-CF; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:26:25 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwCAMAAABg3Am1AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAM1BMVEU0UUk5ZWJFYWRS
 iGxdnKwzQDVGXIgjKSk1NkhKN2NbUpsfIB+ZWaAaGRkOGhiYLy////+aMabgAAAAAWJLR0QQlbIN
 LAAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGg0RJdIswn8AAAFsSURBVEjHtdTRkoMgDAVQxK2AafT//7YhGAkIYjuztzN9
 yjEh2BojmSiWMkv+mjEv+mRRkrkJKKbfZh6BSOydYaCEjHa0uqIECjFlIozhkoC7Ct0lZ6EwcC0y
 dcTC4CBDwSSBRMZiyoCEKU1HnMA5Y14PWpzA+9dwUTEH8AT8eLVULyDlQb3xUlwJfp8ajzfeN4FN
 b+Bk6+kr4E3gWJ3itLHAh0tsGR49g3ZUvVPpg5MEX4BVslDJwoVLGR4eUg7w5qy9eDijO1RItSjB
 u0rCWgUHSlzAVeuRRiDFIwKggLiWeMVhDaFdHxwiorQwKKFn0PrStevVUT3kegbcD1Wos3pdQDdQ
 HRoBvluQp4xBxb8F+BNwbbBtG++h2EV7pC0G6X9tp8SCuG9Vf+mw7y6Wpm/QC29vCbiUN0mNYrVz
 94dOI+lHHDNBf0uAnfz/PeDPACD/PtxImLtTtoR0AHjEvjwDg/KadOQGtwJ8AJQxSMhavXeTAAAA
 JXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTExLTI2VDEzOjE3OjM3KzAwOjAwZiMwYwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0
 ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMS0yNlQxMzoxNzozNyswMDowMBd+iN8AAAAASUVORK5CYII=
X-Now-Playing: Ulrich Schnauss's _Goodbye_: "For Good"
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:26:21 +0100
In-Reply-To: <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri,
 26 Nov 2021 14:22:25 +0100")
Message-ID: <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > Stefan Monnier
 <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > >> I sense a bit of confusion: we're
 talking about the runtime representation >> of function values: those never
 occur in source code. > > Yes, bu [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
>
>> I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation
>> of function values: those never occur in source code.
>
> Yes, but we're able to funcall those runtime representations.  So that
> doesn't really make much of a difference here, I think?

(That is -- the point of all this is to make the printed representation
of the runtime representation more recognisable (and usable) as source
code, even if it'll never appear in nature.)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:59:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163793868332455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163793868332455
          (code B ref 52063); Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:59:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 14:58:03 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60357 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqcfr-0008RP-0j
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:58:03 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:41047)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mqcfo-0008Qs-LX
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:58:01 -0500
Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 5C52F1003BF;
 Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:57:54 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id B6B3D10025F;
 Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:57:52 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637938672;
 bh=YyHQec+Pp7DWDXuhnwAgi5hOdxf9h8lD47hiQCwTiWY=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=Fc7kt217lhCOFPj/UTkUBdzIpIPdrZ8aniw4Rn9zGWVwF3nY1SB10Sh932tdp2/s+
 XeieVJMpalRm0y+ufvBjLcml2bNq/qsN2HDPzivnWlGAANQVSPQ/nx1yAaVw3P4LjC
 5xUiedClXh7KbydksCtAeC2jvm1ZZmsTvB1ZzTAU6vXW6LlIF0y2/ioP4EdZgEPFoV
 nhAia+3YRjLG1alOVtdOmZwwIHNAAjEUzegRk6KH2FjdBwZBEKp1qY39xx750a0nbP
 ocU8A9aKIj+X20l2gON0zsxr8AzGuQQ/i3CuUDfvtCcCOtSLeIIMjMbBwrWxcx+ysB
 Lmowg/6siCuow==
Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 852E9120909;
 Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:57:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:57:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri,
 26 Nov 2021 14:26:21 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.095 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

>>> I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation
>>> of function values: those never occur in source code.
>> Yes, but we're able to funcall those runtime representations.

I'd hope so: that's what runtime representation of functions are for.

>> So that doesn't really make much of a difference here, I think?
> (That is -- the point of all this is to make the printed representation
> of the runtime representation more recognisable (and usable) as source
> code, even if it'll never appear in nature.)

My objection was to:

    (Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas,
    which I think we should anyway.)


-- Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 15:01:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.1637938856336 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.1637938856336
          (code B ref 52063); Fri, 26 Nov 2021 15:01:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 15:00:56 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60361 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqcie-00005M-EQ
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:00:56 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:52502)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqcic-000052-5L
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:00:55 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=WBtCyGiDmlphBY2oP5dVQmeDrkorzNQHC3fqsXXkXYM=; b=uT6prGvkzoCNP1Kh1xVXsG749X
 LOx0c3gT9tZxVcoDuP2k4g/ddamTpLweF85o1p+lHCtJxbe9aiY/VivBFhsTViJ9SL0TZB0utLdub
 7GLPve+xv7ye3QSigmUt2UCZSjfzvGpER9YvEXdCI2hhWd+/ySi6jZ6p6sVp+z4rEREI=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mqciS-0005aW-0X; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 16:00:46 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAIVBMVEX7+/vn4thlZGci
 IiVRUFI/PkEUFBgfHyMeHSGGhof////TPQRdAAAAAWJLR0QKaND0VgAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGg47EZ61
 RLsAAAGkSURBVDjLdZRNT8MwDIbDxIXj/gFCHHZEuKp7ROs0dkdIvXcC7kFzzmQiOSLBD8bOR5tu
 nbdJWx77tR27U+rMrpZsSi2qzWivkO1WXfcaTg2hZmBhxgT0cCHiFGhEwjrm4O/ixkakSSwAy+W0
 /GnYlZAieCqqwuhtBuDZtBcZfhvnnU+AyJNGOQUJJs0/coSLyqRDVXQKfCAaU473fGxcLhYHIC8z
 lDRWlY6MTl0U5bIKv6Xk6BOlvBN5Jw7oxoiU3BmATdu/xLIFfAQh43gubYXSJjebAUsZIFvb1pLc
 DMTkMSNY2zWVC61gAKF2bUHbDvZbQOT2Q/KY7rgF2+HjLoyrlGpakbrvZZIJxNLxs7HdfiUj1gEs
 euNikme7XefZNwLCMWFT9fCbl6weADd1bNe7vENDhAy22fz1oKdAmgL4WsF5BIvxUOcA8bploSkg
 LJ6HotzpUxKATDpcaQFjRFoBWenZHKKoLwC5wTNgkl4B0mx93DwthQfgZE18WKth7cPt+qnJLplD
 Ab5Leog5CvdiRd9m7UHdjH8x67vRftRSzds/QBR5t/+lddEAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIw
 MjEtMTEtMjZUMTQ6NTk6MTcrMDA6MDD3ZXJ3AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTExLTI2
 VDE0OjU5OjE3KzAwOjAwhjjKywAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==
X-Now-Playing: Diamond Version's _CI_: "This Blank Action (feat. Leslie Winer)"
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 16:00:43 +0100
In-Reply-To: <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message
 of "Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:57:51 -0500")
Message-ID: <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > My
 objection
 was to: > > (Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in
 lambdas, 
 > which I think we should anyway.) You don't think we should allow `declare'
 in lambdas? It'd allow us to implement things like "named lambdas" more
 easily. Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:

> My objection was to:
>
>     (Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas,
>     which I think we should anyway.)

You don't think we should allow `declare' in lambdas?  It'd allow us to
implement things like "named lambdas" more easily.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 16:59:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163794589320784 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163794589320784
          (code B ref 52063); Fri, 26 Nov 2021 16:59:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 16:58:13 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60499 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqeY9-0005PA-6F
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:58:13 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:54850)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mqeY7-0005Ow-9y
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:58:12 -0500
Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 3BAD4440A32;
 Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:58:05 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 900AE4409E9;
 Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:58:03 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1637945883;
 bh=7VqdDXy9FR2hUi7Y0gmJy1eV6fejhFWnDB/wJ7tdYfk=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=l9arA1SX8zqH8GJUZBzjV/agrteMtadwTZrZ6PJYrhievXD+HBAt9Sm4W6IQNDV4w
 ckPHZ0JpbDSVIgT9YEtKFE5CL+KRcSRqGnpgNTPyfQTjI/8oT3G8EUlluheUOLn+sF
 CJMQRD02ixdT/K2MWTLiq9rAW66ygFW2Q/sPX7tdP5R7+LPL4AuTf9sznHbh13MB6S
 Mf+2jpXi8GrJaWH5ViNHmoxKpB8tR1JmUugY+VOtOYWEragE7qye7H7f5dKNAOKQz0
 vy22Hma5sYWLbFYczX4t0l0/U99hXfNJW8qsuWFU5Mb6Wd5EjGAKxk5lcWrs2Z5l5R
 lzrgFiKJi7MEA==
Received: from ceviche (modemcable124.78-161-184.mc.videotron.ca
 [184.161.78.124])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5EAFC12097F;
 Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:58:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:58:02 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri,
 26 Nov 2021 16:00:43 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL 0.601 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Lars Ingebrigtsen [2021-11-26 16:00:43] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
>> My objection was to:
>>
>>     (Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas,
>>     which I think we should anyway.)
>
> You don't think we should allow `declare' in lambdas?  It'd allow us to
> implement things like "named lambdas" more easily.

I object to linking the two issues because one is about the `lambda`
expressions in source code and the other is about runtime representation
of function values and the two are fundamentally distinct (e.g. most
runtime function values are compiled).


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 14:18:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163802267220499 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163802267220499
          (code B ref 52063); Sat, 27 Nov 2021 14:18:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Nov 2021 14:17:52 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33332 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqyWW-0005KZ-8Y
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 09:17:52 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34368)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqyWU-0005KI-A6
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 09:17:51 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=+IWeFdeBQsjX8gGIyQyjozHH49RO4lWQAhQ60+rjobk=; b=OqmYRQFcVBZ26D5sj+TMmCdKI2
 1i1d9WL/DNbea3RSZyeT9JC/It9Ovghx9kMB1zjIGYt34blwZfS43NUqSDsLX4gMfKmEAD/UNI8b2
 SRBMmLf73P3aWONwRuc84HVAEIhl1C09MluHTQJC2/x0/jnBVfIgLOvbrRLTikDV4B+8=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mqyWK-0001C6-36; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:17:42 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEXWq2TeuoyiYkxB
 LyT////lU39VAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGw4BKFylda8AAAGNSURBVDjLbZMBssMg
 CESRXEDzL2DgAvlw/7t1URNNG6bTZnzCsoQSRaRSSlZH1BJBI3CeyhbnblRyyWmCsnuPmnLKtKRs
 AyBllqJE2a+oZSaA7Dc4lwSiuxLiAq2/ohOktdtbAheOod4SGjB1E2kgdw/hwlRwKKL+nxeJv7hb
 dzDR8wnkCj2XptLmoijkavjcgDIFcOc+FI5EIBbCqUD+UMOTcaUOQJq/UG9jRAQgrlHHdBcAMRQQ
 6ULRvUnNwofU3puT1AGYuJ+Fe3caF9wqziHL0hpcABoRTplhaAJtoEAj6jU3dM0b4qRywJI+AVzg
 coLEDyDBOuUXwCnejxgG+dTg8EEab6x3pZcGRmiMZivjJYdzGQAJlWEPJ5sRvtGOD+sS2sb4wmxj
 O9puUmrL0o3QcbeFSac2fn12FYTbdn23extqpS+gIjNX3jP6851hPhdeV3A13W/pMsTxfwocLifQ
 AeB7BTZ+D+0D+imVMeKkv8D2mIy8ZABwjlX+BgR3+xtoC/ZWCvM9a4h/AOuenqUSokA1AAAAJXRF
 WHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTExLTI3VDE0OjAxOjQwKzAwOjAwtso/ugAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpt
 b2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMS0yN1QxNDowMTo0MCswMDowMMeXhwYAAAAASUVORK5CYII=
X-Now-Playing: Joni Mitchell's _Clouds_: "Both Sides, Now"
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:17:39 +0100
In-Reply-To: <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message
 of "Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:58:02 -0500")
Message-ID: <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > I object
 to linking the two issues because one is about the `lambda` > expressions
 in source code and the other is about runtime representation > of function
 values and the two are fundamentally dis [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:

> I object to linking the two issues because one is about the `lambda`
> expressions in source code and the other is about runtime representation
> of function values and the two are fundamentally distinct (e.g. most
> runtime function values are compiled).

I agree in principle, but the original confusion here was that the
runtime representation didn't resemble the source code sufficiently.
You suggested making the runtime representation more similar to the
source code, and I suggested making it even more similar.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:29:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163802692828550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163802692828550
          (code B ref 52063); Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:29:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Nov 2021 15:28:48 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34429 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mqzdA-0007QP-0y
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 10:28:48 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:27032)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mqzd7-0007QB-Qm
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 10:28:46 -0500
Received: from pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 98B97440757;
 Sat, 27 Nov 2021 10:28:39 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg3.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 2CE57440999;
 Sat, 27 Nov 2021 10:28:38 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1638026918;
 bh=jAqbHAUkoN3feMzBiPl6JNjvzkrQqsv2eh9NID/lWDY=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=bAbqUc+S9Wva6P/AvHaqkJJDF5r1ei1xRntT6FXDq5BbILJQ9OgPsxauJPrPIlQLL
 h0czUjA+JeSF5Q4Z++34FmJG6++ua9DXwZfbQcuSe5UEN9/kAwyA61H5emUjOLgXwl
 09CD7BAkrAJjjmhsvlRu/l/nTiQE0MKvQ47U6SKdL1VlNunyT2vos90S/sZTA4RCO9
 ftKT+7w911arni+OrR9R8b+W7DvxXTx5GDhTAU/eEVobLGGE93Kg3U1NmByzuQBoc9
 CEZ1usu5vwss9zpebSBfeABOV67NpC1Pkq2uOwjCyE9QJSvlkVTyax3eC5K84Uk+0+
 TePJqMj6Dq1xA==
Received: from ceviche (modemcable034.207-20-96.mc.videotron.ca [96.20.207.34])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C1672120A1D;
 Sat, 27 Nov 2021 10:28:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 10:28:36 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sat,
 27 Nov 2021 15:17:39 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL -0.159 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Lars Ingebrigtsen [2021-11-27 15:17:39] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
>> I object to linking the two issues because one is about the `lambda`
>> expressions in source code and the other is about runtime representation
>> of function values and the two are fundamentally distinct (e.g. most
>> runtime function values are compiled).
>
> I agree in principle, but the original confusion here was that the
> runtime representation didn't resemble the source code sufficiently.
> You suggested making the runtime representation more similar to the
> source code, and I suggested making it even more similar.

I'm OK with making the printed representation similar to the
source code.  But when that is in turn used to motivate changes to the
source code, I think it's gone too far.
It's hard enough to design good source syntax without such constraints.

Also, I think it's good if the source syntax is a bit different from the
function value syntax: we want the two to be *similar* so the function
value feels familiar and can intuitively be understood, but we also want
to make it clear that we're looking at something
fundamentally different.

That's why I'd favor a representation of the form #[...] or #<...> or ...


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:55:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163819407912297 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163819407912297
          (code B ref 52063); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 13:55:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2021 13:54:39 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37445 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mrh79-0003CH-G7
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 08:54:39 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:57652)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mrh78-0003C5-2S
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 08:54:38 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=8vBzjltxUsPt8NSMCvtyMLCP9bTANdfCVTbQ985lHyU=; b=m4VkqpVD3NygNVvhr+A9Ib0Apv
 SuvwQ9BULPvR0GgVqv/Ou9bKddapCDBHSODZYPstWi4vSJx3i/Pe4jMhQ6NvYg/7LBgQdHjH+acnQ
 0PKsEAxw6zKREH73e5XtRJwacHlWXLqeQ2pTQCFyBhiaeaSlwbl7Lu+H4Z6HF2iiWXNs=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1mrh6w-0004ot-Ia; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:54:29 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj
 SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEUiMDlbgqtin93/
 //8bMBNBAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+ULHQ0nOKXhB2oAAAGMSURBVCjPTdDBiqNAEAbg
 6kHnkFMCGhgfYZ7CGWJgbwopwT7NIQbsp9h5g8yCwnjKgDb2/5RbZTawjZePsqv/KqIa4UTrORB9
 g/mOlKgCFyWRWT9uuVLkWmnbs/4jiIk8TytMWRENzVzwblu0nBCN4/Td7qJjV8sLGBbmNK67PwJf
 LxUnccG5dINdkioSaDfUS8p53J5W+CUtjGnXBK6/vsjVFcaNP5xs6SVXbEbflAnFpcbYwNtrQUbx
 5IB6otzohOYV6M70QRrX1EDoqLxX0jtiznVyi87lZXbWDuRRut+yo0gB3Nyn3Ow1g/fL621wmHT2
 AdhMvUMgis0ROM6dvC27NM8I77AjtGQKTDFGD4C25g2BEaAgwePIOzv3H0wGWInuBFezB8YanZUI
 N60MHFjxkQp8H5qjLOgWbwRzsO+SoM8FYe7s7kTmS+Axd9lBUKz4abLP6IG5ya4xPfFBu/nGTrLe
 obAI7tLYRXP+2gjqw37WaCzLwAONpq6jfb/iIqj+obvImBw9f9Ff0Oq5iCmtxEQAAAAldEVYdGRh
 dGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMTEtMjlUMTM6Mzk6NTYrMDA6MDDOdNwYAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlm
 eQAyMDIxLTExLTI5VDEzOjM5OjU2KzAwOjAwvylkpAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==
X-Now-Playing: Consolidated's _We're Already There_: "The Chickens are
 Coming Home"
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:54:25 +0100
In-Reply-To: <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message
 of "Sat, 27 Nov 2021 10:28:36 -0500")
Message-ID: <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview:  Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm OK
 with making the printed representation similar to the > source code. But
 when that is in turn used to motivate changes to the > source code, I think
 it's gone too far. > It's hard enough to d [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:

> I'm OK with making the printed representation similar to the
> source code.  But when that is in turn used to motivate changes to the
> source code, I think it's gone too far.
> It's hard enough to design good source syntax without such constraints.

I'm not sure I follow you -- I don't think this would mean changing any
source code?

But, yes, it would mean that people might be tempted to write actual
code like

(lambda ()
  (declare (lexical-binding (foo . 1)))
  ...)

but people might be tempted to do the same with `closure' forms, and
that doesn't seem to be happening.

My point is that if we're extending the `lambda' syntax, we might as
well do it in a way that allows further easy expansions in the future.

> Also, I think it's good if the source syntax is a bit different from the
> function value syntax: we want the two to be *similar* so the function
> value feels familiar and can intuitively be understood, but we also want
> to make it clear that we're looking at something
> fundamentally different.
>
> That's why I'd favor a representation of the form #[...] or #<...> or ...

Hm, right...  I think I'm in favour of demystifying, not further
mystifying things for the users.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:59:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163820872518736 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163820872518736
          (code B ref 52063); Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:59:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2021 17:58:45 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39264 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1mrkvN-0004s7-1z
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:45 -0500
Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:19563)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <monnier@HIDDEN>) id 1mrkvL-0004rv-Mq
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:44 -0500
Received: from pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 95CA2805F9;
 Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:37 -0500 (EST)
Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1])
 by pmg2.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 213DF80169;
 Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:36 -0500 (EST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca;
 s=mail; t=1638208716;
 bh=geOeaPt5KtkUQagxhb3cfan73T+AOOvGxUZMUAxsb9M=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
 b=P84fcpUZHlvWSDM/1gwl++/4zb9MfXz5VrQR10F5hBaf/vs58uNntePH1/oERkouY
 +grKjor8LGkaGi0ab3jO4AsB5nBHi0/JBo2G/PW/WyDQtQK8EnUpyyYrBiwGvgC/1i
 iSzvXTaiBSNGIRYDnbn3QRdVBU2Xr5+Ftqdf6pLALT9Y0WRu1Tx1Y7XQ2xd76iFBgT
 Py9pb6krN3AnY3S7f3BdR1L4Q2WF+jlpOQaasud4cs/O+4PHyyu1Sg8GnaA6N7Zh/k
 70lgOCw2mrstRcjIgxBVK+V5vR+jED3i9a7WcPqlnfSMwXLIGNBsWVD4Fhj8fBFOnK
 kM3IGrO+D9mFQ==
Received: from alfajor (lechon.iro.umontreal.ca [132.204.27.242])
 by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 10920120476;
 Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <jwvbl226e6y.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:35 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon,
 29 Nov 2021 14:54:25 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-SPAM-INFO: Spam detection results:  0
 ALL_TRUSTED                -1 Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 AWL 0.169 Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address
 BAYES_00                 -1.9 Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 DKIM_SIGNED               0.1 Message has a DKIM or DK signature,
 not necessarily valid
 DKIM_VALID -0.1 Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature
 DKIM_VALID_AU -0.1 Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's
 domain
X-SPAM-LEVEL: 
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

> My point is that if we're extending the `lambda' syntax, we might as
> well do it in a way that allows further easy expansions in the future.

And my point is that we're not discussing the syntax of `lambda` but the
representation of function values.
[ I agree with the above, BTW.  I just don't think it is relevant to the
  problem at hand.  ]

>> Also, I think it's good if the source syntax is a bit different from the
>> function value syntax: we want the two to be *similar* so the function
>> value feels familiar and can intuitively be understood, but we also want
>> to make it clear that we're looking at something
>> fundamentally different.
>> That's why I'd favor a representation of the form #[...] or #<...> or ...
> Hm, right...  I think I'm in favour of demystifying, not further
> mystifying things for the users.

Currently the vast majority of functions in Emacs's heap (i.e. function
*values*) get printed either as a symbol or as #[...] or as #<subr...>.
The (lambda ...) and (closure ...) cases are in the minority and I think
it would be good to try and eliminate these cases as much as possible
(we'll probably have to keep supporting it for backward compatibility,
but we can stop generating them ourselves).


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:09:01 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163828128618368 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163828128618368
          (code B ref 52063); Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:09:01 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Nov 2021 14:08:06 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40455 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1ms3nh-0004mB-ED
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:08:06 -0500
Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:38429)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1ms3nN-0004lH-TF
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:08:04 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de;
 s=dbaedf251592; t=1638281252;
 bh=EnOMov30f8UxNn50fExIl29rD5K/z3RwNu2fvD/TeXQ=;
 h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To;
 b=g4CJC6xQHg9xBmQDVB2BBES3jL9W/oo4u2HO56Ni0quzG5KehJM12EOvrOk/C7/8I
 NW+CaXap6qegKm3XRai/Ezr4Rt1vaM8zJsqmj5unDxW90Y9P5PkiGVffFIqgFoc9bt
 lT8VQswoFLdbCdZNVvGUhlQlzO1zDA8TXGad+Jjo=
X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9
Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.225.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005
 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mtgyp-1mbVe70Rl1-00v2hX; Tue, 30
 Nov 2021 15:07:32 +0100
From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:07:30 +0100
In-Reply-To: <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon,
 29 Nov 2021 14:54:25 +0100")
Message-ID: <87zgpl91p9.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xsfDhPV7ofZwZLsSIflE1a31sud1AmD8r3NSa4qFTOAdMEoriJt
 /4JCTjLAlX3n35i7UAubXpldZcxcqCRhuVfnGyPx1NVgFEpYGAn6ruY2iYNtQv8hoEH4Qse
 kOfqbC5FHqvp5zblUdo55O4Uqc76XuiHrV6ijhb76pqGT27OBdbK6uW35NTyEdDIniXJ8QB
 YAhKcl6oRuROII6HgmpTw==
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:o5uSp23U3a4=:dkizaUYqarr85ondYCuOSK
 7w8evCfWm0GbogQCupLFD/aR6/jMSOk56c3O42Ibr29Oc0Rhp8g1yrYMf9/+6wtM7pF70CqdQ
 5PT9PU/TtOPAiPYtoipre38mPvvwR6w2wdOSNaMScY4gvY1Zj/csy6msi2ScwAtNxpaOQ192c
 RdpVWVBEuYr6JlS0FGaL+H14la/J+6FoH9pRdo8NIYbxkMKx2qelxzV6yg2G7bAZbzW+0Q8tP
 dt1zYKAAmpT7KHT69oTJx6598/hAsnsDXViGtPfUoHpq2X4ZQ+Y7JTXB2SIKop4zoYbOGTEHG
 y3+VMoIyvrQl0qSgX/k0pKXaEgL2N7d7LIDL8twqu1+OvtNwjLkFU4EJlOdfgbh+HLfuCWari
 OK8++3fLSYit0J+GWaLgYhLA7XVwt5NjmnP2PW2ofdGWIQcCJpeFu9CxNNnrcHSQDaWKU4fOx
 LRFVe6KnjxZjOUoyM7of5/YCiMfX/SNQAUN+JwwKw2z5NUERBVjHlqNhlakVn2f58zupuNIfo
 jmTCY1CoL0dCIjN3sIMKCOpUgnz0qLYjSXodq+bWB9sLRhxsCmiTFhf00DtGyzd3VoiQb8UuL
 0KrUrtv2TLQ3wOAfs2SXGdq42eBBWnqTKUj9cmctsQaDPKvkfaq4F+BI3ty3VEfvpDnCvk8pF
 //NUVZpK7hdPIhd23bYWyrQ/kQnPsAS2My8earl4HPJxEHyc/yalnqmNb+pcn25IZkNcoTY+9
 XemeKhEINvQ5TOVllbzs+uBWXbG2FOnrQAtuYldMU6CqZ/mQL3E1VVTLH9m5LmQtWkcTJ1GRA
 obhy5rTcOZcwJZHBEULYVAjlKLUVNgUFzg7/PzG8At1cbnvFfe4ZyZCPwunfYDy4yincr0fqb
 8pn7ANKe/rvH8zgxUTufqflNTAuLPqo59IFNPFw7Od5ZLk1P4Nenu7YN0aTuwRNzKacZKosu0
 7Brs6N0VgqHRHsowS9EpyVsRMhXZ7tTYe2qmgk8Mil0Whq8okz42n6ft6tKiv33w79qDiQrGp
 CUiTIja44kwh9b2o0A4ueTprL2ezJTELXEgfLU+FiS0VpXabBWSoeJGj2f0cbY/TLhV4wDCgY
 t5JE2tKTJYzH20=
X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-)

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes:

> But, yes, it would mean that people might be tempted to write actual
> code like
>
> (lambda ()
>   (declare (lexical-binding (foo . 1)))
>   ...)
>
> but people might be tempted to do the same with `closure' forms, and
> that doesn't seem to be happening.

But the above idea is a step in the direction to make closures look even
more like code.  Declarations are a coding thing.  I think we would
regret that very soon.  Kind of "what happened to my lambda, who added
these declarations?" (if that sounded ironically: this is not intended).

Michael.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:21:02 +0000
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.52063.B52063.163828206019693 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063
X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs
X-GNU-PR-Keywords: 
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>
Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Received: via spool by 52063-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.163828206019693
          (code B ref 52063); Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:21:02 +0000
Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Nov 2021 14:21:00 +0000
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40488 helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
	by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
	(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
	id 1ms40C-00057Y-84
	for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:21:00 -0500
Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:42056)
 by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2)
 (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ms40A-00057J-Ly
 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:20:59 -0500
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org;
 s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:
 References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:
 Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:
 Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:
 List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive;
 bh=ZyR5re0m3DfbHVeZGvufPVo73ISz6tANgK2hqpUK0jY=; b=OXRyGeA2Dkf6Sv2UI45b+BofwO
 4733jYAMzUo4DIynYhzzZ6UmPRXseMsrmhuFeY9/J6diqAnOoFr2mxOy5Fv134rEHkU/nwGZCcEAI
 Gla9Q661hpqS08a63VGcPernSENphKEaypYflTlgDuN8WhIJIOTjRF6dhMN8tHIDDHYg=;
Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo)
 by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>)
 id 1ms401-0006tF-1U; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:20:51 +0100
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
 <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
 <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zgpl91p9.fsf@HIDDEN>
Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAAAlQTFRF
 LCkqy8fG////GdDKrAAAAAFiS0dEAmYLfGQAAAAJcEhZcwAACxIAAAsSAdLdfvwAAAAHdElNRQfl
 Cx4OExA7jU3QAAAAWklEQVQoz63RSwqAMAwE0CnoDdr7xIX7BjL3v4pShIw7S53dI1nkA6yncMRm
 4fTEwfIg7h5TIFGRaCaoSBCC2ARdK/YzKBOcDDRZuytiGbte9AVXzL/kA9ZyAS4GO9+aijnyAAAA
 WmVYSWZNTQAqAAAACAAFARIAAwAAAAEAAQAAARoABQAAAAEAAABKARsABQAAAAEAAABSASgAAwAA
 AAEAAgAAAhMAAwAAAAEAAQAAAAAAAAAAAEgAAAABAAAASAAAAAEfUvc0AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNy
 ZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTExLTMwVDE0OjE5OjE2KzAwOjAwNfyo5gAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAy
 MS0xMS0zMFQxNDoxOToxNiswMDowMEShEFoAAAAXdEVYdGV4aWY6WUNiQ3JQb3NpdGlvbmluZwAx
 rA+AYwAAADh0RVh0aWNjOmNvcHlyaWdodABDb3B5cmlnaHQgKGMpIDE5OTggSGV3bGV0dC1QYWNr
 YXJkIENvbXBhbnn5V3k3AAAAIXRFWHRpY2M6ZGVzY3JpcHRpb24Ac1JHQiBJRUM2MTk2Ni0yLjFX
 rdpHAAAAJnRFWHRpY2M6bWFudWZhY3R1cmVyAElFQyBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmllYy5jaBx/AEwAAAA3
 dEVYdGljYzptb2RlbABJRUMgNjE5NjYtMi4xIERlZmF1bHQgUkdCIGNvbG91ciBzcGFjZSAtIHNS
 R0JEU0ipAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC
X-Now-Playing: Irreversible Entanglements's _Open The Gates_: "The Port
 Remembers"
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:20:48 +0100
In-Reply-To: <87zgpl91p9.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Tue, 30
 Nov 2021 15:07:30 +0100")
Message-ID: <87ee6xohbz.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org",
 has NOT identified this incoming email as spam.  The original
 message has been attached to this so you can view it or label
 similar future email.  If you have any questions, see
 @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details.
 Content preview:  Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: > But
 the above idea is a step in the direction to make closures look even > more
 like code. Declarations are a coding thing. I think we would > regret that
 very soon. Kind of "what happened to my lam [...] 
 Content analysis details:   (-2.9 points, 5.0 required)
 pts rule name              description
 ---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
 -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED            Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP
 -1.9 BAYES_00               BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1%
 [score: 0.0000]
X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--)
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, 
 <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---)

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes:

> But the above idea is a step in the direction to make closures look even
> more like code.  Declarations are a coding thing.  I think we would
> regret that very soon.  Kind of "what happened to my lambda, who added
> these declarations?" (if that sounded ironically: this is not intended).

Heh; that's a good point.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Last modified: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 14:30:02 UTC

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.