Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Nov 2021 14:21:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Nov 30 09:21:00 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40488 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ms40C-00057Y-84 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:21:00 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:42056) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ms40A-00057J-Ly for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 09:20:59 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=ZyR5re0m3DfbHVeZGvufPVo73ISz6tANgK2hqpUK0jY=; b=OXRyGeA2Dkf6Sv2UI45b+BofwO 4733jYAMzUo4DIynYhzzZ6UmPRXseMsrmhuFeY9/J6diqAnOoFr2mxOy5Fv134rEHkU/nwGZCcEAI Gla9Q661hpqS08a63VGcPernSENphKEaypYflTlgDuN8WhIJIOTjRF6dhMN8tHIDDHYg=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1ms401-0006tF-1U; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:20:51 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN> <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zgpl91p9.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAAAXNSR0IArs4c6QAAAAlQTFRF LCkqy8fG////GdDKrAAAAAFiS0dEAmYLfGQAAAAJcEhZcwAACxIAAAsSAdLdfvwAAAAHdElNRQfl Cx4OExA7jU3QAAAAWklEQVQoz63RSwqAMAwE0CnoDdr7xIX7BjL3v4pShIw7S53dI1nkA6yncMRm 4fTEwfIg7h5TIFGRaCaoSBCC2ARdK/YzKBOcDDRZuytiGbte9AVXzL/kA9ZyAS4GO9+aijnyAAAA WmVYSWZNTQAqAAAACAAFARIAAwAAAAEAAQAAARoABQAAAAEAAABKARsABQAAAAEAAABSASgAAwAA AAEAAgAAAhMAAwAAAAEAAQAAAAAAAAAAAEgAAAABAAAASAAAAAEfUvc0AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNy ZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTExLTMwVDE0OjE5OjE2KzAwOjAwNfyo5gAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAy MS0xMS0zMFQxNDoxOToxNiswMDowMEShEFoAAAAXdEVYdGV4aWY6WUNiQ3JQb3NpdGlvbmluZwAx rA+AYwAAADh0RVh0aWNjOmNvcHlyaWdodABDb3B5cmlnaHQgKGMpIDE5OTggSGV3bGV0dC1QYWNr YXJkIENvbXBhbnn5V3k3AAAAIXRFWHRpY2M6ZGVzY3JpcHRpb24Ac1JHQiBJRUM2MTk2Ni0yLjFX rdpHAAAAJnRFWHRpY2M6bWFudWZhY3R1cmVyAElFQyBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmllYy5jaBx/AEwAAAA3 dEVYdGljYzptb2RlbABJRUMgNjE5NjYtMi4xIERlZmF1bHQgUkdCIGNvbG91ciBzcGFjZSAtIHNS R0JEU0ipAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Irreversible Entanglements's _Open The Gates_: "The Port Remembers" Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:20:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87zgpl91p9.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:07:30 +0100") Message-ID: <87ee6xohbz.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: > But the above idea is a step in the direction to make closures look even > more like code. Declarations are a coding thing. I think we would > regret that very soon. Kind of "what happened to my lam [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: > But the above idea is a step in the direction to make closures look even > more like code. Declarations are a coding thing. I think we would > regret that very soon. Kind of "what happened to my lambda, who added > these declarations?" (if that sounded ironically: this is not intended). Heh; that's a good point. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:07:32 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN> <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:07:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:54:25 +0100") Message-ID: <87zgpl91p9.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xsfDhPV7ofZwZLsSIflE1a31sud1AmD8r3NSa4qFTOAdMEoriJt /4JCTjLAlX3n35i7UAubXpldZcxcqCRhuVfnGyPx1NVgFEpYGAn6ruY2iYNtQv8hoEH4Qse kOfqbC5FHqvp5zblUdo55O4Uqc76XuiHrV6ijhb76pqGT27OBdbK6uW35NTyEdDIniXJ8QB YAhKcl6oRuROII6HgmpTw== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:o5uSp23U3a4=:dkizaUYqarr85ondYCuOSK 7w8evCfWm0GbogQCupLFD/aR6/jMSOk56c3O42Ibr29Oc0Rhp8g1yrYMf9/+6wtM7pF70CqdQ 5PT9PU/TtOPAiPYtoipre38mPvvwR6w2wdOSNaMScY4gvY1Zj/csy6msi2ScwAtNxpaOQ192c RdpVWVBEuYr6JlS0FGaL+H14la/J+6FoH9pRdo8NIYbxkMKx2qelxzV6yg2G7bAZbzW+0Q8tP dt1zYKAAmpT7KHT69oTJx6598/hAsnsDXViGtPfUoHpq2X4ZQ+Y7JTXB2SIKop4zoYbOGTEHG y3+VMoIyvrQl0qSgX/k0pKXaEgL2N7d7LIDL8twqu1+OvtNwjLkFU4EJlOdfgbh+HLfuCWari OK8++3fLSYit0J+GWaLgYhLA7XVwt5NjmnP2PW2ofdGWIQcCJpeFu9CxNNnrcHSQDaWKU4fOx LRFVe6KnjxZjOUoyM7of5/YCiMfX/SNQAUN+JwwKw2z5NUERBVjHlqNhlakVn2f58zupuNIfo jmTCY1CoL0dCIjN3sIMKCOpUgnz0qLYjSXodq+bWB9sLRhxsCmiTFhf00DtGyzd3VoiQb8UuL 0KrUrtv2TLQ3wOAfs2SXGdq42eBBWnqTKUj9cmctsQaDPKvkfaq4F+BI3ty3VEfvpDnCvk8pF //NUVZpK7hdPIhd23bYWyrQ/kQnPsAS2My8earl4HPJxEHyc/yalnqmNb+pcn25IZkNcoTY+9 XemeKhEINvQ5TOVllbzs+uBWXbG2FOnrQAtuYldMU6CqZ/mQL3E1VVTLH9m5LmQtWkcTJ1GRA obhy5rTcOZcwJZHBEULYVAjlKLUVNgUFzg7/PzG8At1cbnvFfe4ZyZCPwunfYDy4yincr0fqb 8pn7ANKe/rvH8zgxUTufqflNTAuLPqo59IFNPFw7Od5ZLk1P4Nenu7YN0aTuwRNzKacZKosu0 7Brs6N0VgqHRHsowS9EpyVsRMhXZ7tTYe2qmgk8Mil0Whq8okz42n6ft6tKiv33w79qDiQrGp CUiTIja44kwh9b2o0A4ueTprL2ezJTELXEgfLU+FiS0VpXabBWSoeJGj2f0cbY/TLhV4wDCgY t5JE2tKTJYzH20= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > But, yes, it would mean that people might be tempted to write actual > code like > > (lambda () > (declare (lexical-binding (foo . 1))) > ...) > > but people might be tempted to do the same with `closure' forms, and > that doesn't seem to be happening. But the above idea is a step in the direction to make closures look even more like code. Declarations are a coding thing. I think we would regret that very soon. Kind of "what happened to my lambda, who added these declarations?" (if that sounded ironically: this is not intended). Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvbl226e6y.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
<m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
<875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 12:58:35 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon,
29 Nov 2021 14:54:25 +0100")
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> My point is that if we're extending the `lambda' syntax, we might as
> well do it in a way that allows further easy expansions in the future.
And my point is that we're not discussing the syntax of `lambda` but the
representation of function values.
[ I agree with the above, BTW. I just don't think it is relevant to the
problem at hand. ]
>> Also, I think it's good if the source syntax is a bit different from the
>> function value syntax: we want the two to be *similar* so the function
>> value feels familiar and can intuitively be understood, but we also want
>> to make it clear that we're looking at something
>> fundamentally different.
>> That's why I'd favor a representation of the form #[...] or #<...> or ...
> Hm, right... I think I'm in favour of demystifying, not further
> mystifying things for the users.
Currently the vast majority of functions in Emacs's heap (i.e. function
*values*) get printed either as a symbol or as #[...] or as #<subr...>.
The (lambda ...) and (closure ...) cases are in the minority and I think
it would be good to try and eliminate these cases as much as possible
(we'll probably have to keep supporting it for backward compatibility,
but we can stop generating them ourselves).
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Nov 2021 13:54:39 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Nov 29 08:54:39 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37445 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mrh79-0003CH-G7 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 08:54:39 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:57652) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mrh78-0003C5-2S for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 08:54:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=8vBzjltxUsPt8NSMCvtyMLCP9bTANdfCVTbQ985lHyU=; b=m4VkqpVD3NygNVvhr+A9Ib0Apv SuvwQ9BULPvR0GgVqv/Ou9bKddapCDBHSODZYPstWi4vSJx3i/Pe4jMhQ6NvYg/7LBgQdHjH+acnQ 0PKsEAxw6zKREH73e5XtRJwacHlWXLqeQ2pTQCFyBhiaeaSlwbl7Lu+H4Z6HF2iiWXNs=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mrh6w-0004ot-Ia; Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:54:29 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN> <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEUiMDlbgqtin93/ //8bMBNBAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+ULHQ0nOKXhB2oAAAGMSURBVCjPTdDBiqNAEAbg 6kHnkFMCGhgfYZ7CGWJgbwopwT7NIQbsp9h5g8yCwnjKgDb2/5RbZTawjZePsqv/KqIa4UTrORB9 g/mOlKgCFyWRWT9uuVLkWmnbs/4jiIk8TytMWRENzVzwblu0nBCN4/Td7qJjV8sLGBbmNK67PwJf LxUnccG5dINdkioSaDfUS8p53J5W+CUtjGnXBK6/vsjVFcaNP5xs6SVXbEbflAnFpcbYwNtrQUbx 5IB6otzohOYV6M70QRrX1EDoqLxX0jtiznVyi87lZXbWDuRRut+yo0gB3Nyn3Ow1g/fL621wmHT2 AdhMvUMgis0ROM6dvC27NM8I77AjtGQKTDFGD4C25g2BEaAgwePIOzv3H0wGWInuBFezB8YanZUI N60MHFjxkQp8H5qjLOgWbwRzsO+SoM8FYe7s7kTmS+Axd9lBUKz4abLP6IG5ya4xPfFBu/nGTrLe obAI7tLYRXP+2gjqw37WaCzLwAONpq6jfb/iIqj+obvImBw9f9Ff0Oq5iCmtxEQAAAAldEVYdGRh dGU6Y3JlYXRlADIwMjEtMTEtMjlUMTM6Mzk6NTYrMDA6MDDOdNwYAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlm eQAyMDIxLTExLTI5VDEzOjM5OjU2KzAwOjAwvylkpAAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Consolidated's _We're Already There_: "The Chickens are Coming Home" Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:54:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Sat, 27 Nov 2021 10:28:36 -0500") Message-ID: <87r1az12zy.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm OK with making the printed representation similar to the > source code. But when that is in turn used to motivate changes to the > source code, I think it's gone too far. > It's hard enough to d [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm OK with making the printed representation similar to the > source code. But when that is in turn used to motivate changes to the > source code, I think it's gone too far. > It's hard enough to design good source syntax without such constraints. I'm not sure I follow you -- I don't think this would mean changing any source code? But, yes, it would mean that people might be tempted to write actual code like (lambda () (declare (lexical-binding (foo . 1))) ...) but people might be tempted to do the same with `closure' forms, and that doesn't seem to be happening. My point is that if we're extending the `lambda' syntax, we might as well do it in a way that allows further easy expansions in the future. > Also, I think it's good if the source syntax is a bit different from the > function value syntax: we want the two to be *similar* so the function > value feels familiar and can intuitively be understood, but we also want > to make it clear that we're looking at something > fundamentally different. > > That's why I'd favor a representation of the form #[...] or #<...> or ... Hm, right... I think I'm in favour of demystifying, not further mystifying things for the users. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvtufx4o6x.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
<m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
<875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 10:28:36 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Sat,
27 Nov 2021 15:17:39 +0100")
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Lars Ingebrigtsen [2021-11-27 15:17:39] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
>> I object to linking the two issues because one is about the `lambda`
>> expressions in source code and the other is about runtime representation
>> of function values and the two are fundamentally distinct (e.g. most
>> runtime function values are compiled).
>
> I agree in principle, but the original confusion here was that the
> runtime representation didn't resemble the source code sufficiently.
> You suggested making the runtime representation more similar to the
> source code, and I suggested making it even more similar.
I'm OK with making the printed representation similar to the
source code. But when that is in turn used to motivate changes to the
source code, I think it's gone too far.
It's hard enough to design good source syntax without such constraints.
Also, I think it's good if the source syntax is a bit different from the
function value syntax: we want the two to be *similar* so the function
value feels familiar and can intuitively be understood, but we also want
to make it clear that we're looking at something
fundamentally different.
That's why I'd favor a representation of the form #[...] or #<...> or ...
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Nov 2021 14:17:52 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Nov 27 09:17:52 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33332 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mqyWW-0005KZ-8Y for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 09:17:52 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:34368) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqyWU-0005KI-A6 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 09:17:51 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=+IWeFdeBQsjX8gGIyQyjozHH49RO4lWQAhQ60+rjobk=; b=OqmYRQFcVBZ26D5sj+TMmCdKI2 1i1d9WL/DNbea3RSZyeT9JC/It9Ovghx9kMB1zjIGYt34blwZfS43NUqSDsLX4gMfKmEAD/UNI8b2 SRBMmLf73P3aWONwRuc84HVAEIhl1C09MluHTQJC2/x0/jnBVfIgLOvbrRLTikDV4B+8=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqyWK-0001C6-36; Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:17:42 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN> <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEXWq2TeuoyiYkxB LyT////lU39VAAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGw4BKFylda8AAAGNSURBVDjLbZMBssMg CESRXEDzL2DgAvlw/7t1URNNG6bTZnzCsoQSRaRSSlZH1BJBI3CeyhbnblRyyWmCsnuPmnLKtKRs AyBllqJE2a+oZSaA7Dc4lwSiuxLiAq2/ohOktdtbAheOod4SGjB1E2kgdw/hwlRwKKL+nxeJv7hb dzDR8wnkCj2XptLmoijkavjcgDIFcOc+FI5EIBbCqUD+UMOTcaUOQJq/UG9jRAQgrlHHdBcAMRQQ 6ULRvUnNwofU3puT1AGYuJ+Fe3caF9wqziHL0hpcABoRTplhaAJtoEAj6jU3dM0b4qRywJI+AVzg coLEDyDBOuUXwCnejxgG+dTg8EEab6x3pZcGRmiMZivjJYdzGQAJlWEPJ5sRvtGOD+sS2sb4wmxj O9puUmrL0o3QcbeFSac2fn12FYTbdn23extqpS+gIjNX3jP6851hPhdeV3A13W/pMsTxfwocLifQ AeB7BTZ+D+0D+imVMeKkv8D2mIy8ZABwjlX+BgR3+xtoC/ZWCvM9a4h/AOuenqUSokA1AAAAJXRF WHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTExLTI3VDE0OjAxOjQwKzAwOjAwtso/ugAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpt b2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMS0yN1QxNDowMTo0MCswMDowMMeXhwYAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Joni Mitchell's _Clouds_: "Both Sides, Now" Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2021 15:17:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:58:02 -0500") Message-ID: <87tufxr8cc.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > I object to linking the two issues because one is about the `lambda` > expressions in source code and the other is about runtime representation > of function values and the two are fundamentally dis [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > I object to linking the two issues because one is about the `lambda` > expressions in source code and the other is about runtime representation > of function values and the two are fundamentally distinct (e.g. most > runtime function values are compiled). I agree in principle, but the original confusion here was that the runtime representation didn't resemble the source code sufficiently. You suggested making the runtime representation more similar to the source code, and I suggested making it even more similar. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvczmm97sj.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
<831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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<jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
<875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:58:02 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri,
26 Nov 2021 16:00:43 +0100")
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Lars Ingebrigtsen [2021-11-26 16:00:43] wrote:
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
>> My objection was to:
>>
>> (Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas,
>> which I think we should anyway.)
>
> You don't think we should allow `declare' in lambdas? It'd allow us to
> implement things like "named lambdas" more easily.
I object to linking the two issues because one is about the `lambda`
expressions in source code and the other is about runtime representation
of function values and the two are fundamentally distinct (e.g. most
runtime function values are compiled).
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 15:00:56 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 26 10:00:56 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60361 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mqcie-00005M-EQ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:00:56 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:52502) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqcic-000052-5L for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:00:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=WBtCyGiDmlphBY2oP5dVQmeDrkorzNQHC3fqsXXkXYM=; b=uT6prGvkzoCNP1Kh1xVXsG749X LOx0c3gT9tZxVcoDuP2k4g/ddamTpLweF85o1p+lHCtJxbe9aiY/VivBFhsTViJ9SL0TZB0utLdub 7GLPve+xv7ye3QSigmUt2UCZSjfzvGpER9YvEXdCI2hhWd+/ySi6jZ6p6sVp+z4rEREI=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqciS-0005aW-0X; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 16:00:46 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN> <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAIVBMVEX7+/vn4thlZGci IiVRUFI/PkEUFBgfHyMeHSGGhof////TPQRdAAAAAWJLR0QKaND0VgAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGg47EZ61 RLsAAAGkSURBVDjLdZRNT8MwDIbDxIXj/gFCHHZEuKp7ROs0dkdIvXcC7kFzzmQiOSLBD8bOR5tu nbdJWx77tR27U+rMrpZsSi2qzWivkO1WXfcaTg2hZmBhxgT0cCHiFGhEwjrm4O/ixkakSSwAy+W0 /GnYlZAieCqqwuhtBuDZtBcZfhvnnU+AyJNGOQUJJs0/coSLyqRDVXQKfCAaU473fGxcLhYHIC8z lDRWlY6MTl0U5bIKv6Xk6BOlvBN5Jw7oxoiU3BmATdu/xLIFfAQh43gubYXSJjebAUsZIFvb1pLc DMTkMSNY2zWVC61gAKF2bUHbDvZbQOT2Q/KY7rgF2+HjLoyrlGpakbrvZZIJxNLxs7HdfiUj1gEs euNikme7XefZNwLCMWFT9fCbl6weADd1bNe7vENDhAy22fz1oKdAmgL4WsF5BIvxUOcA8bploSkg LJ6HotzpUxKATDpcaQFjRFoBWenZHKKoLwC5wTNgkl4B0mx93DwthQfgZE18WKth7cPt+qnJLplD Ab5Leog5CvdiRd9m7UHdjH8x67vRftRSzds/QBR5t/+lddEAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6Y3JlYXRlADIw MjEtMTEtMjZUMTQ6NTk6MTcrMDA6MDD3ZXJ3AAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOm1vZGlmeQAyMDIxLTExLTI2 VDE0OjU5OjE3KzAwOjAwhjjKywAAAABJRU5ErkJggg== X-Now-Playing: Diamond Version's _CI_: "This Blank Action (feat. Leslie Winer)" Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 16:00:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:57:51 -0500") Message-ID: <87ee73t10k.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > My objection was to: > > (Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas, > which I think we should anyway.) You don't think we should allow `declare' in lambdas? It'd allow us to implement things like "named lambdas" more easily. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > My objection was to: > > (Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas, > which I think we should anyway.) You don't think we should allow `declare' in lambdas? It'd allow us to implement things like "named lambdas" more easily. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvtufzkluk.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
<831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
<m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN>
<875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:57:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri,
26 Nov 2021 14:26:21 +0100")
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>>> I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation
>>> of function values: those never occur in source code.
>> Yes, but we're able to funcall those runtime representations.
I'd hope so: that's what runtime representation of functions are for.
>> So that doesn't really make much of a difference here, I think?
> (That is -- the point of all this is to make the printed representation
> of the runtime representation more recognisable (and usable) as source
> code, even if it'll never appear in nature.)
My objection was to:
(Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas,
which I think we should anyway.)
-- Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 13:26:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 26 08:26:34 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58975 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mqbFK-0003Yo-1n for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:26:34 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:51686) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqbFI-0003Yc-9j for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:26:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=RsljZsadp9udpQtrQPNiKEaiq/Ulm1p+9DPaX4x7xlM=; b=r584tRpG1SAUvYTGoGQXyMksyG t67rrwg7+PGIM5vxO2yeJiEmLQBFddpo8M4CcQAjHOfqq4oqb+Xl3DGvMkJxQuRWBtBnrzpbA3Zi2 1/tCpWYSPlccU0z7WywhCKpaeJt7jf5Cajw7MWHp0pbZtSEZbQqe/E7mpBOS8gL086Iw=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqbF8-0004ya-CF; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:26:25 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwCAMAAABg3Am1AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAM1BMVEU0UUk5ZWJFYWRS iGxdnKwzQDVGXIgjKSk1NkhKN2NbUpsfIB+ZWaAaGRkOGhiYLy////+aMabgAAAAAWJLR0QQlbIN LAAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGg0RJdIswn8AAAFsSURBVEjHtdTRkoMgDAVQxK2AafT//7YhGAkIYjuztzN9 yjEh2BojmSiWMkv+mjEv+mRRkrkJKKbfZh6BSOydYaCEjHa0uqIECjFlIozhkoC7Ct0lZ6EwcC0y dcTC4CBDwSSBRMZiyoCEKU1HnMA5Y14PWpzA+9dwUTEH8AT8eLVULyDlQb3xUlwJfp8ajzfeN4FN b+Bk6+kr4E3gWJ3itLHAh0tsGR49g3ZUvVPpg5MEX4BVslDJwoVLGR4eUg7w5qy9eDijO1RItSjB u0rCWgUHSlzAVeuRRiDFIwKggLiWeMVhDaFdHxwiorQwKKFn0PrStevVUT3kegbcD1Wos3pdQDdQ HRoBvluQp4xBxb8F+BNwbbBtG++h2EV7pC0G6X9tp8SCuG9Vf+mw7y6Wpm/QC29vCbiUN0mNYrVz 94dOI+lHHDNBf0uAnfz/PeDPACD/PtxImLtTtoR0AHjEvjwDg/KadOQGtwJ8AJQxSMhavXeTAAAA JXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTExLTI2VDEzOjE3OjM3KzAwOjAwZiMwYwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0 ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMS0yNlQxMzoxNzozNyswMDowMBd+iN8AAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Ulrich Schnauss's _Goodbye_: "For Good" Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:26:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:22:25 +0100") Message-ID: <875ysfujya.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > >> I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation >> of function values: those never occur in source code. > > Yes, bu [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > >> I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation >> of function values: those never occur in source code. > > Yes, but we're able to funcall those runtime representations. So that > doesn't really make much of a difference here, I think? (That is -- the point of all this is to make the printed representation of the runtime representation more recognisable (and usable) as source code, even if it'll never appear in nature.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 26 Nov 2021 13:22:38 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Nov 26 08:22:38 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58970 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mqbBW-0003Sl-Il for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:22:38 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:51658) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqbBU-0003SW-PY for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:22:37 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=gSgxW1VoU7TsA8rHE9aVUcI+3mIMKAmdEnB84RhW6Cs=; b=gBuHQZMcfvkk1yqspNUySK/98I LyUzj+wnC5CaU/VxRhDlXNp2ZUBm2u9hdlX2ze7HiVo6yeT3kED1b9J885PCxveZ0R+LGAVHAqDqQ wz9JZF3UqWa+Ix1K49sIykWhuvmKFQBmlLFO/SY5qIg5skU6OVsax5kVPd756Mbro3rw=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqbBJ-0004vf-UV; Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:22:28 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwCAMAAABg3Am1AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAM1BMVEU0UUk5ZWJFYWRS iGxdnKwzQDVGXIgjKSk1NkhKN2NbUpsfIB+ZWaAaGRkOGhiYLy////+aMabgAAAAAWJLR0QQlbIN LAAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGg0RJdIswn8AAAFsSURBVEjHtdTRkoMgDAVQxK2AafT//7YhGAkIYjuztzN9 yjEh2BojmSiWMkv+mjEv+mRRkrkJKKbfZh6BSOydYaCEjHa0uqIECjFlIozhkoC7Ct0lZ6EwcC0y dcTC4CBDwSSBRMZiyoCEKU1HnMA5Y14PWpzA+9dwUTEH8AT8eLVULyDlQb3xUlwJfp8ajzfeN4FN b+Bk6+kr4E3gWJ3itLHAh0tsGR49g3ZUvVPpg5MEX4BVslDJwoVLGR4eUg7w5qy9eDijO1RItSjB u0rCWgUHSlzAVeuRRiDFIwKggLiWeMVhDaFdHxwiorQwKKFn0PrStevVUT3kegbcD1Wos3pdQDdQ HRoBvluQp4xBxb8F+BNwbbBtG++h2EV7pC0G6X9tp8SCuG9Vf+mw7y6Wpm/QC29vCbiUN0mNYrVz 94dOI+lHHDNBf0uAnfz/PeDPACD/PtxImLtTtoR0AHjEvjwDg/KadOQGtwJ8AJQxSMhavXeTAAAA JXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTExLTI2VDEzOjE3OjM3KzAwOjAwZiMwYwAAACV0RVh0ZGF0 ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMS0yNlQxMzoxNzozNyswMDowMBd+iN8AAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Ulrich Schnauss's _Goodbye_: "Goodbye" Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 14:22:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:13:51 -0500") Message-ID: <87a6hruk4u.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation > of function values: those never occur in source code. Yes, but we're able to funcall those runtime representations. So that doesn't really make much of a difference here, I think? Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation > of function values: those never occur in source code. Yes, but we're able to funcall those runtime representations. So that doesn't really make much of a difference here, I think? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvmtlrm57t.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
<831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
<m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 08:13:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87a6hr9k79.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Fri,
26 Nov 2021 13:26:34 +0100")
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> or something like that? And in that case, we could just say even say that
>
> (lambda (x)
> (declare (environment ((bar . 2))))
> (+ x bar))
>
> is how to represent this. =F0=9F=98=80 (I.e., a `lambda' with a `declare
> environment' is a closure.)
>
> (Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas,
> which I think we should anyway.)
I sense a bit of confusion: we're talking about the runtime representation
of function values: those never occur in source code.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
<831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
<m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<f639287a-a72b-8d4e-e22c-1d323d9fb2e5@HIDDEN>
X-Now-Playing: Sylvain Chauveau's _Simple_: "Blanc (live)"
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:28:25 +0100
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Content preview: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> writes: > It might be nice
to print an empty arglist as "()" instead of "nil" > too. While both of those
are equivalent, I think "()" is more > idiomatic when showing an arglist.
Currently we have: > > (lambd [...]
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Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>,
Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>,
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Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> writes:
> It might be nice to print an empty arglist as "()" instead of "nil"
> too. While both of those are equivalent, I think "()" is more
> idiomatic when showing an arglist. Currently we have:
>
> (lambda () (setq foo 1))
> ;; => (closure (t) nil (setq foo 1))
The printer used here is a general Lisp printer, and doesn't know
anything about the semantics. (And I don't think we can change that.)
But Emacs 29 has a language-aware pp variant, which does what you
suggest:
(lambda () 'foo)
=> (closure (t) nil 'foo)
(pp-emacs-lisp-code '(closure (t) nil 'foo))
=> (closure (t) ()
'foo)
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
<831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
<m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
X-Now-Playing: Sylvain Chauveau's _Simple_: "Strangers Forever"
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:26:34 +0100
In-Reply-To: <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message
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Content preview: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes: > We could
have something like: > > (let ((foo 1) > (bar 2) > (baz 5)) > (lambda (x)
(+ x bar))) > > return an object like > > (closure (x) ((bar . 2)) > (+ x
bar)) > > instead of the current > > (clo [...]
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Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:
> We could have something like:
>
> (let ((foo 1)
> (bar 2)
> (baz 5))
> (lambda (x) (+ x bar)))
>
> return an object like
>
> (closure (x) ((bar . 2))
> (+ x bar))
>
> instead of the current
>
> (closure ((baz . 5) (bar . 2) (foo . 1) t) (x)
> (+ x bar))
That does seem a lot more readable (and makes the similarities to
`lambda' more obvious. Could we go one further and do
(closure (x)
(environment ((bar . 2)))
(+ x bar))
or something like that? And in that case, we could just say even say that
(lambda (x)
(declare (environment ((bar . 2))))
(+ x bar))
is how to represent this. =F0=9F=98=80 (I.e., a `lambda' with a `declare
environment' is a closure.)
(Which would also mean that we'd have to allow `declare' in lambdas,
which I think we should anyway.)
--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d9sm9650289pjs.2.2021.11.25.11.56.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:56:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <f639287a-a72b-8d4e-e22c-1d323d9fb2e5@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 11:56:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 11/25/2021 11:07 AM, Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors wrote: > IOW, the final `t` can be dispensed with, we could swap the arglist and > the captured environment, and we could filter the environment to only > include variables which are actually used inside the function. It might be nice to print an empty arglist as "()" instead of "nil" too. While both of those are equivalent, I think "()" is more idiomatic when showing an arglist. Currently we have: (lambda () (setq foo 1)) ;; => (closure (t) nil (setq foo 1)) In that case, since there's no captured variables and no args, it might be nicer to show it as: (closure () () (setq foo 1)) Or even: (closure () (setq foo 1))
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvy25c5aat.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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<jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
<CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:07:45 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu,
25 Nov 2021 14:15:03 +0100")
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> Depends on the length of the lexical list, though:
>
> (pp-emacs-lisp-code
> (let ((bar 1))
> (lambda (f) (setq foo bar) (setq foo bar))))
> =>
> (closure ((bar . 1) t) (f)
> (setq foo bar)
> (setq foo bar))
>
> can be unwieldy if the list is long.
[ Taking a step back and ignoring practical concerns like whether it's
easy to implement efficiently. ]
We could have something like:
(let ((foo 1)
(bar 2)
(baz 5))
(lambda (x) (+ x bar)))
return an object like
(closure (x) ((bar . 2))
(+ x bar))
instead of the current
(closure ((baz . 5) (bar . 2) (foo . 1) t) (x)
(+ x bar))
IOW, the final `t` can be dispensed with, we could swap the arglist and
the captured environment, and we could filter the environment to only
include variables which are actually used inside the function.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 14:39:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 25 09:39:14 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56290 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mqFu6-00069V-Ga for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:39:14 -0500 Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:48888) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <gregory@HIDDEN>) id 1mqFu2-000690-Cx for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:39:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1637851149; bh=bDAEgg/c0iimwGFCdk+qJe5nk54jrw4yk15IcNzV9nM=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=T1VztPSil9/byR5atseNxtHAsZ4J6a6X5uOfwOQgzaSH6EQur5aGXxzB3T+oLb78D ccHfrletd4HXOkfKZ1sjas9MUSSsKR3rIGgszGr6/GJh5m9lC9C3Kd2njzy0ksfRYq w21eWJ2EjCZIJ6CBUCwmfSHQS3y612fmGBf2eoFUT7KEOY6JsNNh6gDo/YizkPqc1z w0G1PB646XzFjK/weU0fs5hQICQyg7eHeFzwL5A9HPh81Fty0qDI9bz7pb5TmpREiz nUwWTNkPgAzzDuMzHjnEzRwF0V0zoW/1etUbCGOyORrqAgGPVpKSCW7er5Z1u4a3OJ tLFlqvRp7aThg== Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:39:09 +0000 From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda In-Reply-To: <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <612d659daa9b57b79782@HIDDEN> References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>, fgunbin@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) > > A closure has lexical binding inside itself, though, which lambdas do > not have. So checking for an empty lexical environment isn't sufficient > to decide whether to try to convert back to a lambda or not -- you have > to do some deep inspection. (See code snippet that demonstrates the > issue in an earlier post of mine.) > Indeed, that was the counter-example I tried to find. I should read your posts more carefully ;-) My initial feeling, that (closure (t) args body) is not equivalent to (lambda args body), was correct after all.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 14:08:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 25 09:08:33 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56211 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mqFQP-0004Y0-1L for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:08:33 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:46171) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1mqFQM-0004Wu-UP for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:08:32 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1637849297; bh=O0unsffutssqC/FjfGFmnnWSFpnzOL5fC3NcYTXLBJQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=LlKpmhOG8Eag4mYnue6DtXpxK4fVyIqvBf48zSzHiThDFtL04UBxTXDxn74ZmHTv6 1GtRrWlCoaNgifStBUp8k1LPlOBJjDj5HjcbrAImTcMAAJInjQmZdAg8RdYJULDwR2 ZzcMRvUeBVEkYbUDh9dacvqMdUs1Vii5FRa2btes= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.225.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MpCqh-1mHCes2a11-00qWV0; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 15:08:17 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 15:08:16 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:09:25 +0100") Message-ID: <87ee74tjjj.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:8rGxMAG6/TynSM0bpcGzOkFaFX9u+/fwkekDzLht+6BmYXJqfOJ nLW+uUh/Oe+uP1jJ4ZpsngBoToBranYk8lt5m9EP5BpdLn4XgDZWvlRkCZmOxO3JFpvMQzj rdaFtAKQcxN6RuIGb0ITX77PTqxDa6gsaCIYDnX59iiLXcopexDvI3voT5veK3DvryVpWnL 7kPUTg9xDr8xszv37/B3g== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:k5KKjhk7tAQ=:OQrJ7PNYT/7PRQCI0x9sK5 3bfRPspXFoFShKUHyRUxL5iBRE92sdwOklTUcas3dZzTY1FbnMUWiHah7ZhKG7RTagumPDb7y 7eURqzAWLjovh+hEBZmev7A11+WIw4PR13MHonsKlnvgEHFUd5HmXJoFNqtRrWClXSzQ/v1Cp 20mjTRzs6qKSf5gtIK5DAlLvXXYd99b08WKa5v0cf5T3iLIC1zuaqEWGVFNd9T+XSp+Z0za7N vdg272qmrWwaRY9/AbUjKYfkb8CJkP6mKljNBt8tXorTDE9dOsnRawd/4RTqwSx85khgf1DrF YV/+5QIpKOKdkR17Z+E3Mbbd0EYFNBQ5NthayuNT99pcLi3mkePnPVSWQg+SPG8ChuJtJqmL9 4vovTj6fkZw++RWHFaLX9lWIGHo9AtBnAuUKdd45HTMYYJ4yma8AZPV+uS+FFuUaQKcK4HKZ6 SBuExomCMCSggFAkTePxFjtTiseOJBBThdBTXee6soleOpn61WxrRRup1LCAi0mHAqP+XXJ2G pmoYJ+zdXQaoe7x+KjLYtCREQtnliuSvTj30UofD1msJjgQeh/VtZS6Aj4ZrmNrXxU/11iIQp aoz4PKFayYYlbOkUvP/RZfLRVJpL0+DG3qVmGTsRs2Ww9+8nj9yio/CunibwwjhQQ8C+qR+Co MppL4pjCtA9dATxLKOrz4Q6nDcDbst88D7OqVzrJqpM4F+AJPw8qj7BjCAWtI5U5mKGSZR23P 93M4qxj9FFnFyAh67glYwb1W3m9S1HpRYWhBdeD3qR7+usof7yGsk+wfok/BmIJLikE4qqC4l 4jOidn+8vACG86p82luVXNyfuvK4j0wrGQqHDxdlWaG/S/E9nKS9zTocCzjZFnvTur093dTzC vi/9v/AlVir4hHiqFw6b1GDYb+n37h6QY3wkjy4XphLgVa48WC9+leTjv/Ug7UpmxbmGOpXBs uGXENEV4Y8O1FQ6ntwdrhFyz3mmf6ZW6yG3H5g+ovqSSz2XcerWroZ6o+WwNGMy36q/hyeyfn ZDDzIJ+CpY3xjkk1gm/pnBzJz20sJM7r8dF1PT4vHw65WcGhAQcEqnb/loMkVxlUpiaGFa2v5 7uVSPA+iNbQ8FI= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, fgunbin@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> writes: > A closure has lexical binding inside itself, though, which lambdas do > not have. [...] (See code snippet that demonstrates the issue in an > earlier post of mine.) Oh - indeed. Then those function values have fundamentally different semantics when funcalled, and it's good that they are represented differently. My guess would be that the decision "can be translated into a lambda" in the general case is either expensive or not even decidable. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 13:15:20 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 25 08:15:20 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56156 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mqEau-0001st-0M for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:15:20 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:40060) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqEaq-0001sY-St for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:15:18 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=T+MIsIEVHJWDHqHsBN4c+xnXRiFdbbiWxidiD7X3grg=; b=M8Tv7oLi11Tm0Go1K3Jy/UiKM3 CQ/Y0s9rIQRHY4bgHXcqbgVGjJf0Q9SsCj4v/SfGDhoIoVnL7CX2x89Z/zSzz2SHukKVJ/Pi0lyHa l1VWnRCQyrIV3LWIVMbugE/1rCOcLhZq+l7JBt6hTXpXDdLtvFOeb2WkO4vH1IvGVxWY=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqEad-0003lO-Rc; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:15:06 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEUECRYkP1l5orj/ //+sHS1BAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGQw7GPZYh58AAAFeSURBVCjPZdFBa8IwFAfw F9GCnjy0gv0Ag+1TZKDCPD0lCWvPrcx8CtlhsJsFI8zTDq0s+ZR7SaMM9i7tj4THe//AFGLV7QTu VYskfBkKgO7UI4NkAebE/P+wAnYC1WPUcHiD5DTwmCmDexj0yEtnNCSH0ODJUd2g/2N2CBO4iHEP ZTXow9wP42wmc2b5a0D3nOal5RVh4My1LqzmSEjci+6c2fewY2q+rBjvMdF21WNiITm7SwoeeQuz TtuIb9pNWwwoj8A2TkagRxGusYL6rwzBJyClgHUjQ5qTL23wERcpUDo5LdNZoOMbuo3rYTUBTUTu mk7s2pBam8nGoN6HPAU1l0IV4QkwkyhRlQFSMK64WvvRRjQaYfuBEZiJ7XsE4LzbnU14UIDpw8/1 0/kVfHa7YrN0/l4V+kOqeQCFlEllIxDySx0BAmarbO9B+9L+w0xF+EJ2vIPBHwBnx19TzH+DE4Aj WAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0xMS0yNVQxMjo1OToyNCswMDowMMEvBCYAAAAldEVY dGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMTEtMjVUMTI6NTk6MjQrMDA6MDCwcryaAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Namasenda's _Unlimited Ammo - Infinity_: =?utf-8?B?IuKYhiAo?= =?utf-8?B?w5Y=?= Remix)" Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:15:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> (Filipp Gunbin's message of "Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:13:35 +0300") Message-ID: <87v90ge5rc.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> writes: > Or maybe we could just _print_ the closure objects in such a special > way that it's more pleasant to read, especially when there's actually > empty lexical environment. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> writes: > Or maybe we could just _print_ the closure objects in such a special > way that it's more pleasant to read, especially when there's actually > empty lexical environment. (pp-emacs-lisp-code (lambda () (setq foo bar) (setq foo bar))) => (closure (t) nil (setq foo bar) (setq foo bar)) Slightly less confusing, but perhaps it should be (closure (t) nil (setq foo bar) (setq foo bar)) Depends on the length of the lexical list, though: (pp-emacs-lisp-code (let ((bar 1)) (lambda (f) (setq foo bar) (setq foo bar)))) => (closure ((bar . 1) t) (f) (setq foo bar) (setq foo bar)) can be unwieldy if the list is long. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 13:09:41 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 25 08:09:41 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56147 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mqEVR-0001jB-3Q for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:09:41 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:39998) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqEVP-0001ix-Bz for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 08:09:40 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=1eKdW3zlcaekWgPmcws8WfUzKaHvebyl6DFLHcbIauA=; b=uyJyyGZ7WYrrbweATQtrwA7WLE m42kdmkIX4pbrlnAsYi1by1BFYeqAn+tBaoBVChov+MuYxbF2nPDl9+Y79FcvcPwxx/EQhIDMokZr ISMbRXzET8qCdrg1BR2niwLE7xVAqsXcKaDIB9im3pg9MAntOmRtnobmatF1mM+/rt+Q=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mqEVD-0003hn-As; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:09:30 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEUECRYkP1l5orj/ //+sHS1BAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGQw7GPZYh58AAAFeSURBVCjPZdFBa8IwFAfw F9GCnjy0gv0Ag+1TZKDCPD0lCWvPrcx8CtlhsJsFI8zTDq0s+ZR7SaMM9i7tj4THe//AFGLV7QTu VYskfBkKgO7UI4NkAebE/P+wAnYC1WPUcHiD5DTwmCmDexj0yEtnNCSH0ODJUd2g/2N2CBO4iHEP ZTXow9wP42wmc2b5a0D3nOal5RVh4My1LqzmSEjci+6c2fewY2q+rBjvMdF21WNiITm7SwoeeQuz TtuIb9pNWwwoj8A2TkagRxGusYL6rwzBJyClgHUjQ5qTL23wERcpUDo5LdNZoOMbuo3rYTUBTUTu mk7s2pBam8nGoN6HPAU1l0IV4QkwkyhRlQFSMK64WvvRRjQaYfuBEZiJ7XsE4LzbnU14UIDpw8/1 0/kVfHa7YrN0/l4V+kOqeQCFlEllIxDySx0BAmarbO9B+9L+w0xF+EJ2vIPBHwBnx19TzH+DE4Aj WAAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMS0xMS0yNVQxMjo1OToyNCswMDowMMEvBCYAAAAldEVY dGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMTEtMjVUMTI6NTk6MjQrMDA6MDCwcryaAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Namasenda's _Unlimited Ammo - Infinity_: =?utf-8?Q?=22?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=98=86?= (Feat. Oklou)" Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 14:09:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN> (Michael Heerdegen's message of "Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:57:34 +0100") Message-ID: <87zgpse60q.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: > Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: > >> AFAIU, the fundamental question here is: is "(closure (t) args body)" >> different in any way from "(lambda args body)"? If not, is there a >> go [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>, fgunbin@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes: > Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: > >> AFAIU, the fundamental question here is: is "(closure (t) args body)" >> different in any way from "(lambda args body)"? If not, is there a >> good reason to use a "(closure (t)" instead of a "(lambda"? > > This is my question, too. But not only: any anonymous function that > doesn't reference any part of its environment could (?) also be > represented as a lambda list. With other words: only "real" closures > would be represented as (closure ...). That would make inspection of > values and things like debugging easier. A closure has lexical binding inside itself, though, which lambdas do not have. So checking for an empty lexical environment isn't sufficient to decide whether to try to convert back to a lambda or not -- you have to do some deep inspection. (See code snippet that demonstrates the issue in an earlier post of mine.) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 25 Nov 2021 08:57:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 25 03:57:54 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55705 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mqAZl-0004VJ-TJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:57:54 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:42557) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN>) id 1mqAZj-0004V5-43 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:57:52 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1637830657; bh=EJaq+GvTzVWCnVA9KSlg8Hi5rR7/e12mvBcn4+rOKZM=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=UOlQY6piG50DPCTTLwiM+3xZYh1Rf6pWrHHeYZVIv7nlB0JzNWcuMrXObgWZCtvCh cHfiwLKxKySSTFCUDZXMqkdpRbkLbgJ00+pfygo3mMG9am+QqW7v5AFFWDR9U5WZge IgmbhdxYTCk6gSs54QnVppnilvRBaxwytlfPio0s= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from drachen.dragon ([92.208.225.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MDdyH-1mx5Ox3nlP-00AdFZ; Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:57:37 +0100 From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:57:34 +0100 In-Reply-To: <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:37:53 +0000") Message-ID: <87pmqotxxd.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:lbzWG0stk9m/yPSGBrOHYhthZoI9d1VYNmq9RDPRQ4NJ0VuztSx YbWZPBqWDFF+puuJIkTvhE1uMgBP9RBaVeRZMQfswCQAUrxd3oXfF4nif83WQtboBYOtqFY ffnRIK+DKfuUGw5T6Eoo3cet/LExZQ6dh3bWcz7aZ8gswINMKn+rjd8FOpyxt9QT/KYHXWn GhantIPkEM7ilztoCUQvg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:UG7M2H0/pBU=:SN4I8KaQnU364wHh6oI4e1 wuoMP12jU9wLMsyVXrr5GsgeH4TaCi+YVvXMnL0tA5Y47ne/nWDfLq+hYvUpLkcfcKYl/eE7x ywOztIUnTOHYS2y2IjMm5LWGzR0nkvWageSlHyof640V4juIJN4CAr7I72BgNySN3K9NlXz42 lgwqMgtCZQKoeyYch3CKNk8uRVPi+Y/mEddLTmm2ptsxrFDOt2WS8YA9z9G+b6hU6/6C5BjYh CLMkpf7r7RBNzpsoTBoEiF1Yv7R1bgI8TFGY0p4AMUqPNpcNpDW8otbECBGf4cUF+hJgh8PX+ rRISfmeRwKXmHdKuREDzTXKGD1aD+QNvdSjmCgHqGT4Py2hzNydDESeUeRm9EFqdjBgnN4n3S cKvwjXFT4Adey8WAOTzqXyQZqPt4GaYZqIbg2dsTefBHN/4yXqSYMZsRPUvBy85NcIEO6glRR vyC8/krQBLZsmYBYZm1rtA08ibGd2veH5YH84GzUbxkquQSYkxMF171TY4ADB4ZMXOr3EszvG yFrFhw3D2R5vl1x1eM3ZAz3NOGAivUzPyccu2WapdKn5hJvuKUHN6DaFCFaxPlZcGpNGQ/RnD 3MExEXSrz+YIkRoTbg/FfStZ+F7QM1t7UzD/gWPlZ5+uO2KYJi2OH+rx1CqVRirJHi3vE+K3f kJlFG7rN1UEyDTqfNUmXnUr/feQw3La5KEXE9UuraaYopovWPyvn5zGsLR9rs34SFkoxyDyOv 3EY4bXqJlK7mRs9XzrX+bQqP9xncZ+FNF+tVofqArAR3f1H9yDpIXa9jAyyl7L9Enl8ymqXTN 932o5V1HlfNT1evy/xIopLbZs5tPwrsf+ifStXzqurqw9aAqf0WinAgNOm9/aG/sviSuqjBK8 /0Zj9PpvnVwraXXOOo8dCOZQUu8W3DZqsxnc34xWvoR76dYQslHkzIwGJhAe7shRvfjbTa7RY IKsRJjxUghPGnYZXUhXuuDx7l7W4yv1FRgKfmWdiMX7ZBawvLu5Kzoi1anczlRbRMUW0yWjFk +uoC5G4vzgyV/GyaR+bf+L+UyHSCeDKyd/Nl4MHwlzOUhJQB+NWneC3/6QQoVjzEIrn7daFIH oLHYBYAOJSbDEM= X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, fgunbin@HIDDEN, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> writes: > AFAIU, the fundamental question here is: is "(closure (t) args body)" > different in any way from "(lambda args body)"? If not, is there a > good reason to use a "(closure (t)" instead of a "(lambda"? This is my question, too. But not only: any anonymous function that doesn't reference any part of its environment could (?) also be represented as a lambda list. With other words: only "real" closures would be represented as (closure ...). That would make inspection of values and things like debugging easier. Michael.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:13:36 -0500 (EST) From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> To: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda In-Reply-To: <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> (Philipp Stephani's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:16:18 +0100") References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:13:35 +0300 Message-ID: <m28rxdm6s0.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 24/11/2021 21:16 +0100, Philipp Stephani wrote: > Am Mi., 24. Nov. 2021 um 20:17 Uhr schrieb Stefan Monnier via Bug > reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors > <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>: >> >> Filipp Gunbin [2021-11-24 21:18:43] wrote: >> > On 24/11/2021 11:54 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> >>> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs? Dynamic or lexical? >> >> `lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere. >> >> The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out. >> > Yes, I know that eventually it'll be phased out, but then perhaps issues >> > such as this need special attention.. >> >> Indeed, but I'm not sure what we can do about it. > > Maybe, once the non-lexical dialect is gone, we can make (closure (t) > (lambda ...)) identical to (lambda ...) and then prefer the latter > again. Or maybe we could just _print_ the closure objects in such a special way that it's more pleasant to read, especially when there's actually empty lexical environment.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:09:18 -0500 (EST) From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda In-Reply-To: <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> (Gregory Heytings's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:37:53 +0000") References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <664b6d0147ece2617779@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2021 03:09:15 +0300 Message-ID: <m2czmpm6z8.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 24/11/2021 22:37 +0000, Gregory Heytings wrote: >>> I'm annoyed by this misfeature. If it means nothing to you and others, >>> so be it. >> >> I fully understand desire to see function values printed as much as >> possible as their original source code, but it's hard to reconcile this >> with the needs of clean semantics, efficient execution, good code >> analysis, ... >> > > AFAIU, the fundamental question here is: is "(closure (t) args body)" > different in any way from "(lambda args body)"? If not, is there a good > reason to use a "(closure (t)" instead of a "(lambda"? > > FWIW, I'm running an Emacs with the following patch right now, which > apparently breaks a couple of edebug tests in make check. Apart from > that, it seems that it doesn't change anything in the way Emacs behaves. > > [..] Please let's not do that. We may need the context, that the function originated as a closure, later for some reasons. Rather, I like what Stefan said, that we should keep the reference to the source.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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[76.168.148.233]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id n71sm745714pfd.50.2021.11.24.14.42.27 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:42:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN> <9a8c985a-7042-a81c-5bf0-5117982c9cdc@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <e72d3874-dab3-fee8-c99c-6fa41a73beec@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:42:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9a8c985a-7042-a81c-5bf0-5117982c9cdc@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 11/24/2021 2:33 PM, Jim Porter wrote: > This is a contrived example, but similar sorts of things crop up in the > real world. If the above example were significantly more complex (e.g. > the `let' and the `add-hook' were in different functions), I might not > realize that `foo' was lexically-bound unless I looked at the value of > `prog-mode-hook' and saw the closure. Sorry, this part isn't correct (at least, I don't think it is): "(e.g. the `let' and the `add-hook' were in different functions)". So just ignore that bit. :) Nevertheless, it could be that the bound variables in a closure aren't what you'd expect, so I still think it's useful to see them somehow.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:37:53 +0000
From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
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>> I'm annoyed by this misfeature. If it means nothing to you and others,
>> so be it.
>
> I fully understand desire to see function values printed as much as
> possible as their original source code, but it's hard to reconcile this
> with the needs of clean semantics, efficient execution, good code
> analysis, ...
>
AFAIU, the fundamental question here is: is "(closure (t) args body)"
different in any way from "(lambda args body)"? If not, is there a good
reason to use a "(closure (t)" instead of a "(lambda"?
FWIW, I'm running an Emacs with the following patch right now, which
apparently breaks a couple of edebug tests in make check. Apart from
that, it seems that it doesn't change anything in the way Emacs behaves.
diff --git a/src/eval.c b/src/eval.c
index 94ad060773..5d02cabaf4 100644
--- a/src/eval.c
+++ b/src/eval.c
@@ -564,6 +564,8 @@ DEFUN ("function", Ffunction, Sfunction, 1, UNEVALLED,
0,
xsignal2 (Qwrong_number_of_arguments, Qfunction, Flength (args));
if (!NILP (Vinternal_interpreter_environment)
+ && !(EQ (Fcar (Vinternal_interpreter_environment), Qt) &&
+ NILP (Fcdr (Vinternal_interpreter_environment)))
&& CONSP (quoted)
&& EQ (XCAR (quoted), Qlambda))
{ /* This is a lambda expression within a lexical environment;
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Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
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From: Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN>
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On 11/24/2021 12:14 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> I look at the values to make sure they are what I expect. It's normal
> in Emacs to do that, isn't it?
I think in cases like that, it's useful to see the closure, since that's
information that can help the user debug a problem. For example, if I
have something like the following, it's helpful to see information about
the closure:
(let ((foo 1))
(add-hook 'prog-mode-hook (lambda () (setq foo 1))))
In that case, the value of prog-mode-hook is:
((closure ((foo . 1) t) nil (setq foo 1)))
This is a contrived example, but similar sorts of things crop up in the
real world. If the above example were significantly more complex (e.g.
the `let' and the `add-hook' were in different functions), I might not
realize that `foo' was lexically-bound unless I looked at the value of
`prog-mode-hook' and saw the closure.
As such, I think the current behavior is better than simply showing what
the user typed, i.e. "(lambda () ...)". That doesn't show the variables
bound by the closure. However, the specific representation of the
closure object could use some improvement. For example, I don't know
what purpose the `t' and `nil' serve, although I'm sure both are useful
to experts in some situations. Is there a way to represent all this
information in a way that's easy for users to understand without
expecting them to know the details of how closures are implemented in Emacs?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvmtltp6px.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
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<83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:02:12 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
2021 22:14:03 +0200")
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>> > So I guess the warning about quoting lambdas with ' instead of #' is
>> > actually misleading people into getting these closures instead of the
>> > lambdas they might expect?
>>
>> A value (lambda ...) is fundamentally a list. The rest of the system
>> (e.g. the byte-compiler, flymake, ...) can't know if you intend to use
>> this list as a function, so it can't really look inside to compile its
>> body, warn you about typos in its body, or uses of obsolete
>> vars/functions, etc...
>
> I'm talking about evaluation, not about byte-compilation.
> This happened when Emacs was processing my init file.
I'm tlking neither specifically about evaluation nor compilation, I'm
just talking about the meaning of
'(lambda ...)
which prevents our tools from looking at the code inside of it because
those tools can't tell whether it's supposed to contain source code or
just arbitrary data.
>> It's all about the difference between code and data ;-)
> What difference? I always thought that in Emacs Lisp there's no such
> difference.
I think saying that "code is data" is misunderstood. All it means is
that code is exposed as a kind of data, e.g. via macros.
But obviously not every piece of data is a valid and usable piece of code.
And when ELisp knows that a specific piece of data is actually a piece
of code, it can take the liberty to manipulate it accordingly under the
assumption that it's "somewhat opaque" and that the only thing we're
going to do with it is evaluate/run it rather than manipulate it with,
say, `car/cdr`.
E.g. when we load a .el file containing:
(defun foo (xs) (dolist (x xs) (when x (message "%s" x))))
the `symbol-function` cell of `foo` will not contain
(dolist (x xs) (when x (message "%s" x)))
> Does lexical-binding change that as well?
It makes the difference a bit bigger.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvsfvlp6tq.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:44:48 -0500
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(Philipp Stephani's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:16:18 +0100")
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>> Indeed, but I'm not sure what we can do about it.
> Maybe, once the non-lexical dialect is gone, we can make (closure (t)
> (lambda ...)) identical to (lambda ...) and then prefer the latter
> again.
That's sufficiently far into the future that i have no idea whether
it'll be a good idea ;-)
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:10:28 -0300
Message-ID: <CADs++6j5vuSeGzqT9S7=y412BA7M+ng9U9rgVjLRD9DZmaJs+g@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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On Wed, 24 Nov 2021 at 17:09, Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU
Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>
wrote:
>
> I think it's very rare for a user to look at those objects.
That's a matter of taste. For me one of the charms of Emacs is that
most objects have internal representations that I can inspect and
understand. Compiled functions are not like that, but when I need to
inspect a byte-compiled function foo-bletch that was defined in the
file foo.elc I can usually run (load "foo.el"), and this overrides the
byte-compiled foo-bletch with a non-byte-compiled version.
Cheers,
Eduardo Ochs
http://angg.twu.net/#eev
http://angg.twu.net/emacsconf2021.html
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwv4k81qpos.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:52 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
2021 21:59:42 +0200")
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>> What I'm saying is that you are annoyed by the (closure ...) thingy
>> mostly because you're used to seeing (lambda ...) rather than because
>> there's an actual problem with the (closure ...) itself.
> And that is strange because?...
Because a function value is fundamentally something very different from
the text of the code from which it came.
E.g. just `read`ing the object will have lost info such as comments or
choice between ?a and 97, then macroexpansion will change the code
further, and with lexical scoping the need to capture the environment
means that the function values need to be completed with the
captured environment.
> I want to see the code I wrote, not
> some strange transformation of it.
Given all the info lost between the source code and the actual function
value (it's even worse if the code gets compiled), I think the better
way to do that is to try and keep a reference to the source.
We currently don't do that, but we should.
>> IOW if it had always behaved that way, you wouldn't be bothered by it.
> This kind of arguments lead nowhere useful. It smells of disrespect
> to dissenting opinions, which I'm sure you didn't intend.
No, it's just a guess, based on experience in other languages.
> I'm annoyed by this misfeature. If it means nothing to you and
> others, so be it.
I fully understand desire to see function values printed as much as
possible as their original source code, but it's hard to reconcile this
with the needs of clean semantics, efficient execution, good code
analysis, ...
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 20:16:36 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 15:16:36 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55078 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mpyh2-00020t-Gv for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:16:36 -0500 Received: from mail-ot1-f54.google.com ([209.85.210.54]:36463) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <p.stephani2@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyh1-00020f-21 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:16:35 -0500 Received: by mail-ot1-f54.google.com with SMTP id w6-20020a9d77c6000000b0055e804fa524so6101297otl.3 for <52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:16:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LoTsefPQbvLx2nVOME1+1IQAFh2MON7oEJIrM2KZ5Oc=; b=GGL0JTzbFMFZ83ozK2GYdB0JM8hzDds7R7+CC0R8F5FO1uLXyE+OIncW4FbbrjF5uP TopF5vtGPygKr+7VKJa5DVhcSxgsfws1O7T/gHD/Y4ogf8+lN7RbwpEkyPCsy9TqeLpV 4C2M8bBxkzBHWX+vnSlFIKuJHguTnAyJEdhewO3xJxMwu8s4QH4Mot9d7xCFawrczPaP CfVOPrF0Qqrngwn1f+cbyBQoCbovgkwOXAaXkAsbgLIqEc+r0KqBo7ONybsXCKVxAQ+G 49yQmFitdZqVzFrsMeSW6ueA2qkxL2QJeruAwVldkHC0YYTJe+5SxX+QlH097eZz5sya I6Cg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LoTsefPQbvLx2nVOME1+1IQAFh2MON7oEJIrM2KZ5Oc=; b=XxaqJktVjZrrvONYHNTmvQkD+2sJGUV+/QaFgBCdt6tstMgzoek0UgINU7uX53fCCe hKewsN0bIFymH3YOcj3kTQXFKIloRkC274sxbeKH8gwhtf3NBEPsfFFAh9TasFmJEL0Y ZXyTIOeQT6XyXc9VDF5AWTygV2pK1YpRn0Y0ed+gn7FRvtOauNxM/Gm4NqZPMaYp0LAD JEMEJa/szMzlEyQWPWOiGapVd7UD9xVv20Ef/gzho6hF0aVKRqH23c2EXCDuK3sWATCr yxRA1QI4fxQ35DYV4gvvLA6n+Rb4rT3vF0LybPIUsa3wRQ65Ls+5CfbtVyoCNCSer3vv u9YA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Kxc1KRvVzPag+jufBO9xjKrAaCjwJFTTStxBvnmpYF6jeBygk YcCorhigpRSMRV5Fxz94WrrSOLZ9L8F8lEkHxag= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy9GI4RVmcgpKpqLSCjKwmNtwZ+/O2OgSOkKWuCnJ3bxiB9eSvUlJRxE/msFqQUKp+pFcKL2skVKSy+jbJnPWw= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:749a:: with SMTP id t26mr16781950otk.96.1637784989353; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:16:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> From: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:16:18 +0100 Message-ID: <CAArVCkQ8b-kVUtB09hDFKtgWQ1u5biY1aX6cjnvoWP8hmkBrPA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) Am Mi., 24. Nov. 2021 um 20:17 Uhr schrieb Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN>: > > Filipp Gunbin [2021-11-24 21:18:43] wrote: > > On 24/11/2021 11:54 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >>> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs? Dynamic or lexical? > >> `lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere. > >> The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out. > > Yes, I know that eventually it'll be phased out, but then perhaps issues > > such as this need special attention.. > > Indeed, but I'm not sure what we can do about it. Maybe, once the non-lexical dialect is gone, we can make (closure (t) (lambda ...)) identical to (lambda ...) and then prefer the latter again.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 20:14:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 15:14:14 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55073 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mpyek-0001vf-27 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:14:14 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49048) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyef-0001vM-6L for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:14:12 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=46516 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyeZ-0004c6-NI; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:14:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=2cvmtUsldj9RflsrE2swPh6i61lVLOMVEMgd3HmhaOM=; b=mrsyJgFrtYg5 EPXF+YrdZzz88L/0rSPwmeFwI6HFCJpZ4QxdO0aAL7CJIPMomIkKhUgg3hMm3qAafwIW7HN9BnZST dGg+1u4STyuAWP+nOu4+kfHE1bN/WjtyRf8AxG76EfRLSvqkBcdupn082kT7rHoEXWLLfuhA6dy0E RfxvcwAjLoU1FR37CVEOYy1E73GumwwNS1D7Pf/KlPf3Bk+wEDPsbceuBbNEptb2OpXT+7sM2oAVv +dutUczvRF49WIpRV6mxVJ3Qh13H+Y8UHZwJZ+aQA23psjQwSIKPPJPsqmNbJYmENwnKCsvIq7E1V 0h79ycc31RjSpeVR0Wnu2Q==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2029 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyeZ-0003on-Ae; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:14:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 22:14:03 +0200 Message-Id: <83r1b571mc.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:38 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:38 -0500 > > > And we also have menu items and mode-line constructs > > that sometimes use anonymous functions. > > I think it's very rare for a user to look at those objects. > > > And timer functions. > > I can't remember the last time I looked at such a value. And given the > extra info attached to it, it's not very legible so I don't think people > are affected very much by a change in the actual function > representation there. > > > And process filter and sentinel functions. > > Same here: you will often set them, but very rarely will you actually > look at their value. I look at the values to make sure they are what I expect. It's normal in Emacs to do that, isn't it? > > So I guess the warning about quoting lambdas with ' instead of #' is > > actually misleading people into getting these closures instead of the > > lambdas they might expect? > > A value (lambda ...) is fundamentally a list. The rest of the system > (e.g. the byte-compiler, flymake, ...) can't know if you intend to use > this list as a function, so it can't really look inside to compile its > body, warn you about typos in its body, or uses of obsolete > vars/functions, etc... I'm talking about evaluation, not about byte-compilation. This happened when Emacs was processing my init file. > It's all about the difference between code and data ;-) What difference? I always thought that in Emacs Lisp there's no such difference. Does lexical-binding change that as well?
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwva6htqqch.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:08:38 -0500
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>> No, but in 99% of the cases you won't actually *see* a function value
>> (unless you specifically go looking for it, e.g. with `symbol-function`).
> We also have gobs of variables that are not hooks, which accept
> function values.
Indeed, tho I think there are a few more such hooks and at least I have
looked at hook values a lot more often than I have looked at
<foo>-function values.
> And we also have menu items and mode-line constructs
> that sometimes use anonymous functions.
I think it's very rare for a user to look at those objects.
> And timer functions.
I can't remember the last time I looked at such a value. And given the
extra info attached to it, it's not very legible so I don't think people
are affected very much by a change in the actual function
representation there.
> And process filter and sentinel functions.
Same here: you will often set them, but very rarely will you actually
look at their value.
> And that's just 5 sec of thinking where one could meet them.
Indeed, there are many more places.
>> So you'll only get a value of the form (lambda ARGS . BODY) if you use
>> the dynamically scoped dialect of ELisp (or if you manually create such
>> a list, e.g. with '(lambda ...) or `(lambda ...) or (list 'lambda ...),
>> etc...).
>
> So I guess the warning about quoting lambdas with ' instead of #' is
> actually misleading people into getting these closures instead of the
> lambdas they might expect?
A value (lambda ...) is fundamentally a list. The rest of the system
(e.g. the byte-compiler, flymake, ...) can't know if you intend to use
this list as a function, so it can't really look inside to compile its
body, warn you about typos in its body, or uses of obsolete
vars/functions, etc...
> So why do we emit those warnings for Lisp code evaluated from a file
> that doesn't have lexical-binding setting in it?
Those warnings predate the introduction of lexical scoping, indeed.
They're mostly there so you don't mistakenly write code which the
byte-compiler can't compile (and which `flymake` can't analyze to give
you further feedback about issues in that code).
It's all about the difference between code and data ;-)
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 19:59:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 14:59:53 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55056 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mpyQr-0007lY-7h for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:59:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44254) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyQo-0007lJ-WD for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:59:52 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=45572 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyQh-0001GO-Vg; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:59:45 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=RCqDeqI6hK/w+bJ03wnr0FqcoUIdCToF8fbIxbiDyUE=; b=fGCbKDB3XdMV LUCFaTWljmEQb1w8ZsJJCDy3I/H7sg28h603JYd/r2WFnbscpBDAC18b1Ug9YRhN7vAprQ6uOryqw VaA8nzSiEPffI6s09eQJ87KbeeGngkXqdSVWevcyypR8eT8+b1N4rhqdBTQl2srVsawvKOKuhoDHx SRN16EXHvFsawu71ZQjuz8oRl02T9DF9OxAYmJJsJi5K7TPt8ZxGcaEN9EEtQC7ZSPKJSFqqhL9yq G6E4GnF23yI/p+lwdTug9yGByAWQAXwj+9/tZW5fsdR35HCNGoUmHEFGYF7Q4MURR70GQ9ETPe5QR SzWMoUaXT2N30yjM1qH1RQ==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4966 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyQh-0001t0-AS; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:59:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:59:42 +0200 Message-Id: <83tug172a9.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:04 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, fgunbin@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: fgunbin@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:04 -0500 > > >> >From where I sit, the problem is one of habit. > > There's nothing wrong with habits, and there's no reason to fight > > habits of others, even if you don't share them. > > What I'm saying is that you are annoyed by the (closure ...) thingy > mostly because you're used to seeing (lambda ...) rather than because > there's an actual problem with the (closure ...) itself. And that is strange because?... I want to see the code I wrote, not some strange transformation of it. > IOW if it had always behaved that way, you wouldn't be bothered by it. This kind of arguments lead nowhere useful. It smells of disrespect to dissenting opinions, which I'm sure you didn't intend. I'm annoyed by this misfeature. If it means nothing to you and others, so be it.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 19:53:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 14:53:42 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55043 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mpyKs-0007az-7r for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:53:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42246) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyKq-0007an-Nh for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:53:41 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=45288 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyKk-0008Tv-Ii; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:53:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=i9pMj7Yx9basDq+ayQ72GTG/y0ZGN2OXWj+VF1b2WjA=; b=iOo7u6wMGUJM agt3rDGiTXhqzNoHsP2X6Pf5LpKzZqR2oO8Az99ZFZOA/4Pt2Y3SigkN987ymj0/CSapwnwN5WQIw 4UGSoc8sTSNiEC+EGfCPP/GtNFVhOFqfqLn7yU9kGbdYrvTYJc1+++sZI7C3vlrh+/xqkuNunaQpO d4yVpKtWi9YoIugD/ye5MvDU3EeSb7ggu+EAsSl33YcOCtKgSz+b2fmFWBfElzTR8e2uyiK8OLiAO G94FWjDfU9eLzUYLAK4IdxZ9e3KRp/GS+FsjA0oOAR+S4qqdFf/VfEU32UbSHKtFITM7SDUb3cqAp x5jCvV3dYSjWIuspQECl1g==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4589 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpyKk-0002QK-8E; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:53:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:53:33 +0200 Message-Id: <83v90h72ki.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:37 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:37 -0500 > > > So this issue is specific to hooks? > > No, but in 99% of the cases you won't actually *see* a function value > (unless you specifically go looking for it, e.g. with `symbol-function`). We also have gobs of variables that are not hooks, which accept function values. And we also have menu items and mode-line constructs that sometimes use anonymous functions. And timer functions. And process filter and sentinel functions. And that's just 5 sec of thinking where one could meet them. > So you'll only get a value of the form (lambda ARGS . BODY) if you use > the dynamically scoped dialect of ELisp (or if you manually create such > a list, e.g. with '(lambda ...) or `(lambda ...) or (list 'lambda ...), > etc...). So I guess the warning about quoting lambdas with ' instead of #' is actually misleading people into getting these closures instead of the lambdas they might expect? Because that is how this started for me: during startup Emacs said: .emacs: Warning: (lambda nil \.\.\.) quoted with ' rather than with #' So why do we emit those warnings for Lisp code evaluated from a file that doesn't have lexical-binding setting in it? If it were not for this warning, I'd have never tried using #', and thus would have never bumped into this curiosity.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvfsrlqr1o.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
<831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN>
<83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN>
<jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:46:04 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
2021 21:41:12 +0200")
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>> >From where I sit, the problem is one of habit.
> There's nothing wrong with habits, and there's no reason to fight
> habits of others, even if you don't share them.
What I'm saying is that you are annoyed by the (closure ...) thingy
mostly because you're used to seeing (lambda ...) rather than because
there's an actual problem with the (closure ...) itself.
IOW if it had always behaved that way, you wouldn't be bothered by it.
If I had my way, we'd never see any (lambda ...) value nor any (closure
...) value, but we'd instead see things more like #<function ...> or
maybe #[function ...] ;-)
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 19:41:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 14:41:24 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55009 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mpy8x-0007Hc-VC for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:41:24 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39278) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpy8v-0007HP-G6 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:41:22 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=45124 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpy8m-0001jZ-PJ; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:41:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=wMUdYydI/AKZjrSq+hfm4Y240bpN6IpXGppY6QPDPVU=; b=KAclypJnJUP4 OW9vyTAUCbi8nKo/HUyQ2LxzePS8pSVmkMvGouCXsqQdwNYxvDOd9V6yd21VQTQXO7WrI/dQpH7RL 10rpjdanFPwLz0PtmCaMUheqHwHGuSGAEcGlFlD/QT4EauLaN1rUNVNfLVXd9NHMRJ3CRSYYblhuS I0kyXVJs0+qKg9kV31Hc8dGwn1LiM4YCfDjjNU73C1OdN0Te+3qW3u26z8dNqQ64ZzdoMMm3wBRkA vFDLVjoMUOZ+UFAWZpDWxH3SR332cy845GcUCI3lsEEMuRUgp8EWxwgTXHjtBagJqYbTq4SMQ7GJZ lYvqOPdhstOI3e3xLSDUlw==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=3827 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpy8m-0001H2-EX; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:41:12 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:41:12 +0200 Message-Id: <83zgpt7353.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:08:55 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, fgunbin@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, > 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:08:55 -0500 > > >From where I sit, the problem is one of habit. There's nothing wrong with habits, and there's no reason to fight habits of others, even if you don't share them.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvlf1dqsnt.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:08:55 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> (Filipp Gunbin's message of "Wed, 24
Nov 2021 21:18:43 +0300")
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Filipp Gunbin [2021-11-24 21:18:43] wrote:
> On 24/11/2021 11:54 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs? Dynamic or lexical?
>> `lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere.
>> The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out.
> Yes, I know that eventually it'll be phased out, but then perhaps issues
> such as this need special attention..
Indeed, but I'm not sure what we can do about it.
From where I sit, the problem is one of habit.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvr1b5qsyh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:06:37 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
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>> >> > But perhaps others have other opinions here?
>> >> Compile your code and the problem goes away (because you'll never see
>> >> (lambda ...) or (closure ...) values, they'll all be
>> >> byte-code-functions instead ;-)
>> > I don't want to compile my .emacs.
>> > Any other words of wisdom before I write this off as another annoyance
>> > of lexical-binding, and take care to disable that wherever I can?
>> The other word of wisdom is:
>> Don't add lambdas to hook. Always name those functions.
> So this issue is specific to hooks?
No, but in 99% of the cases you won't actually *see* a function value
(unless you specifically go looking for it, e.g. with `symbol-function`).
One of the cases where you are more likely to see one is if you look at
the value of a hook.
> I thought add-hook is just a fancy way of consing a list,
It is.
> but you seem to say that it has some side effects that other
> constructs don't?
Not really, no.
> IOW, would manually consing a list with a lambda-function produce the
> same results,
Yes.
> or would it leave the lambda-function intact?
No. A *value* of the form (lambda ARGS . BODY) is a (non-compiled)
dynamically-scoped function. Non-compiled statically-scoped function
values use the form (closure ENV ARGS . BODY...).
So you'll only get a value of the form (lambda ARGS . BODY) if you use
the dynamically scoped dialect of ELisp (or if you manually create such
a list, e.g. with '(lambda ...) or `(lambda ...) or (list 'lambda ...),
etc...).
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:18:45 -0500 (EST) From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda In-Reply-To: <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:09 -0500") References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvy25d7axl.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:18:43 +0300 Message-ID: <m28rxdo1rw.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 24/11/2021 11:54 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs? Dynamic or lexical? > > `lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere. > The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out. Yes, I know that eventually it'll be phased out, but then perhaps issues such as this need special attention..
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 17:44:51 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 12:44:51 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54896 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mpwKB-00027i-A3 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:44:51 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36220) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpwK9-00027V-3c for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:44:50 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=40196 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpwK2-0005ny-Cu; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:44:42 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=GqKwQAjsIZ5RTfP5VWrQcSrSGGmPFs6dOy5ODPQUi3I=; b=agXrE6PbwgwF hgBf/GMx/78GOIPvDV39XGeLdykVxnyQYMKVAKZlNW9tXb8p+PJCJ3dEfugxZtoTXBEc6k951tN6C iyG7hpcT3R/crst27l7dpxqW9wW/uJ2dbsekMcTfK34wwttZnUGpHScx/SC3+iDEHP+IFfajeLXLM JrjUzvJzmfz0TsEY3chUwEt7Y7KaS8Cwh/Y66S9P7TMkH7LQ0NLw8bejaHqvTphobDUs4ohwHdIkH 99Qng6HaOvJOGF78zLSimqhsitOXuIPBJX4vx/QV7vCzB84kV3UqHmZkTA6ZY3QQSimUjSJ2AgovY NCyJZwlWISziTPgNLXG4jg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=4558 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpwK2-0002vK-4J; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:44:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:44:42 +0200 Message-Id: <83a6ht8n3p.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (message from Stefan Monnier on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:19:51 -0500) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:19:51 -0500 > > >> > But perhaps others have other opinions here? > >> Compile your code and the problem goes away (because you'll never see > >> (lambda ...) or (closure ...) values, they'll all be > >> byte-code-functions instead ;-) > > I don't want to compile my .emacs. > > Any other words of wisdom before I write this off as another annoyance > > of lexical-binding, and take care to disable that wherever I can? > > The other word of wisdom is: > Don't add lambdas to hook. Always name those functions. So this issue is specific to hooks? I thought add-hook is just a fancy way of consing a list, but you seem to say that it has some side effects that other constructs don't? IOW, would manually consing a list with a lambda-function produce the same results, or would it leave the lambda-function intact?
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwvlf1d79sh.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:19:51 -0500
In-Reply-To: <83ilwh8pf2.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
2021 18:54:41 +0200")
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>> > But perhaps others have other opinions here?
>> Compile your code and the problem goes away (because you'll never see
>> (lambda ...) or (closure ...) values, they'll all be
>> byte-code-functions instead ;-)
> I don't want to compile my .emacs.
> Any other words of wisdom before I write this off as another annoyance
> of lexical-binding, and take care to disable that wherever I can?
The other word of wisdom is:
Don't add lambdas to hook. Always name those functions.
That's good advice regardless of lexical/dynamic scoping.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 16:56:22 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 11:56:22 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54841 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mpvZG-0000uX-40 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:56:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49924) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpvZE-0000uK-MP for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:56:20 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=37500 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpvZ9-0005mk-Cc; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:56:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=57fmKLyuj3a3H11O5uDRBOWR6nz/yQUn9Iyl1uZ54q8=; b=oFXa5dPSQdgy TlbluzeVSnj3Sa5+/vklTYuTXZz5Keb+ACO0xRFUCqJSCzTB4wkYZ8VUcf4+pGfTRhFLQUL27UAzc YGgaKsVCvor2vIDbY/SDjZdLIt0xT/Ol1CjSW1aqrfloUqYR1bfxjRx5+gh4NgMjoV5FdL2PAOU+U i50LY+sx+PAJEiGJFCI7e/snbX0L4Vv4ekiRrO0N/C6wlpproaScpTYnWWxJY+avSwXb3pIafmeld IsFGikcHDXzg3Sjn6PX8DgqppE9hfE+jTfQ1C3W7sgJ+Y/+kcSnEHddcWcTJAFrPTBfUYaNoQp/4G DQVrrtHyjzUkCv5PoLdHtg==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1542 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mpvZ9-0008UX-38; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:56:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 18:56:15 +0200 Message-Id: <83h7c18pch.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Filipp Gunbin on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:40:16 +0300) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> > Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, > monnier@HIDDEN > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:40:16 +0300 > > But you're creating normal lambda here, and under lex-bind it will > become a closure, to keep its lexical environment together with it. So how do I get my lambda back, in the lexical-binding environment? > I just realized that I don't have lex-binding turned on in .emacs, and > because of that my customized hooks look "good", but I wonder: what is > the recommended binding mode for .emacs? Dynamic or lexical? With > lexical, all customizations would start to look as your example. That's how I discovered this nit.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:54:09 -0500
In-Reply-To: <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> (Filipp Gunbin's message of "Wed, 24
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> what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs? Dynamic or lexical?
`lexical-binding` should be enabled everywhere.
The non-lexical-binding dialect will be phased out.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:40:18 -0500 (EST) From: Filipp Gunbin <fgunbin@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda In-Reply-To: <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:38:39 +0200") References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (darwin) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 19:40:16 +0300 Message-ID: <m2k0gxo6bz.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 24/11/2021 16:38 +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> >> Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN >> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:31:22 +0100 >> >> If you put >> >> (lambda () 1) >> >> into *scratch* and then `C-u C-x C-e' it'll spit put >> >> (closure (t) nil 1) >> >> Because that's what that form evaluates to in lexically bound buffers. >> `lambda' is no longer self-evaluating, and hasn't been for a few years. >> >> (But I guess it's pretty recent that *scratch* defaults to lexical.) >> >> And it's the same with >> >> (lambda () >> (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p >> 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)) >> >> of course. > > I'm asking why we are doing this. IT IS CONFUSING!!! But you're creating normal lambda here, and under lex-bind it will become a closure, to keep its lexical environment together with it. In your case there's nothing in lex environment, so that's it. I just realized that I don't have lex-binding turned on in .emacs, and because of that my customized hooks look "good", but I wonder: what is the recommended binding mode for .emacs? Dynamic or lexical? With lexical, all customizations would start to look as your example.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
Message-ID: <jwv4k818qfm.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:33:31 -0500
In-Reply-To: <87sfvly160.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Wed,
24 Nov 2021 17:21:43 +0100")
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> But perhaps others have other opinions here?
Compile your code and the problem goes away (because you'll never see
(lambda ...) or (closure ...) values, they'll all be
byte-code-functions instead ;-)
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 17:21:43 +0100
In-Reply-To: <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov
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Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > I'm asking why we are
doing this. IT IS CONFUSING!!! I think it would be more confusing to have
some lambdas be lambdas and some be closures. But it would certainly be
possible
to make the closures that have no bindings into lambdas again.
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> I'm asking why we are doing this. IT IS CONFUSING!!!
I think it would be more confusing to have some lambdas be lambdas and
some be closures. But it would certainly be possible to make the
closures that have no bindings into lambdas again.
Take this example:
(setq foo
(lambda (a)
(lambda ()
(+ a 2))))
(funcall (funcall foo 1))
If we eval-ed `foo' to a lambda here, the funcall would signal an error.
That is, I don't find it confusing -- I find it to be consistent.
Somebody that works in a lexically-bound Lisp has to deal with closures
sooner or later, so special-casing some bits seems counter-productive to
me. But perhaps others have other opinions here?
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 14:38:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 09:38:50 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53584 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mptQA-0001B7-91 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:38:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39526) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mptQ7-0001At-4F for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:38:49 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=60480 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mptQ1-0007jq-OH; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:38:41 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=m8x0XnM6tG3lCR9XsInAx22mgfs3oty32ePgUWKVz5Y=; b=k2DmKgaXffLd E/Qdk0oQ04x2no8Kh3nKQxMzG4HeYWV7a9kzqZLMdMExPuT5Axsdsggxkv/71r3e0W1mU47LBaYFo VOW4A0uWI2/XE7SMG0B5iG0jKUv/+c+g3liHLPQUN1yX5RfudIUspOs8glXnWa2QzpyT2IbOHbX9F N8xCTlc2Ms7GUm+OC51ZRPbY/L1OOLNJEWn0J4AeeSdLnFxPZhmEA939tkzNBlVdVBTTMLQuJG/gc 3raSiB22afGpthi9aEA6nPVJ+wCJ3BkBVtiDyhr2iDNJreohBpbHW/n8HS1/3VivfzcA6iZRSAty8 ViNCCiSYTSF3fsaOL5zm3Q==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=1051 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mptQ1-0005ea-Eg; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:38:41 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 16:38:39 +0200 Message-Id: <83pmqp8vps.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:31:22 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:31:22 +0100 > > If you put > > (lambda () 1) > > into *scratch* and then `C-u C-x C-e' it'll spit put > > (closure (t) nil 1) > > Because that's what that form evaluates to in lexically bound buffers. > `lambda' is no longer self-evaluating, and hasn't been for a few years. > > (But I guess it's pretty recent that *scratch* defaults to lexical.) > > And it's the same with > > (lambda () > (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p > 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)) > > of course. I'm asking why we are doing this. IT IS CONFUSING!!!
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 13:31:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 08:31:37 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53515 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mpsN7-0007zR-Cm for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:31:37 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56960) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mpsN5-0007zC-Rd for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:31:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Zyl6mnko4iaYZDcH+woOOiNgLiEGOriaCX4LV3w0QaM=; b=gGQpJC3PhfEqTqI3SSodmsKS8d kTywbtZpcKvGGawXoISBUwG5OhGgt4fvwxHFsEcn6lcvu/5QYDbRc0JrP/S/z5o1PRovNAXapn8ep 84RgOR3Ipu5ZfzD96N5hBBz2dbCNxkP0viumRIPAG+FeSrV12qktDPlSoz7Hshds7kUk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mpsMv-00021J-9d; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:31:28 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAAD1BMVEVAPSuUbELl2LDA rET///9X7VW+AAAAAWJLR0QEj2jZUQAAAAd0SU1FB+ULGA0bOg/C74sAAAF8SURBVDjLdVPJgcQw CDNJA7ZpYAwNGOi/twUf2WQ3w2MOKQhxJKXXKOkbDu8E5Ph4wRN8viXIlZFvxMDfa9d3JfjiFtLR nwjKr9mHdCkDysBPHGUwfxsDQM4hczyVoIGZ9pSX3hXHpxITl0J/mjuYSCoVJXrO6SBqgNTI4x+h NGMVKW0UJ1kw6dSCMp8gaEgjR6cW2PzWKsYPLW27COMiJoKrFrFZ0SHGj7lXMzbBwfT73E/zISZv 0kPsnsIxjDYYXXMBH1xOWOKXJhfjvgmPBP7vQO3hb0uVuT2witrO8HURUTghE1YOLdpKGJayT8FE oteLKOZMBm2RCZfUIMxyqm7HF89rKLAI8e57mKhVNo5BWFc/ITd9iiyhiZuQGToBH7xMRSizdhw7 gnttI2WVqHEiblc7Rdu8Ukt3LRzEuGu7S/WiRm1AS6pMX1nJxcamy97taBGI8zkJuN6FII4YRJ63 cbsG8J3GCf570VCuo32G+hG8vsbkhP5K/QBJST3yJYtE6gAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAy MS0xMS0yNFQxMzoyNzo1OCswMDowMEhGCm8AAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9kaWZ5ADIwMjEtMTEtMjRU MTM6Mjc6NTgrMDA6MDA5G7LTAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: David Bowie's _Brilliant Live Adventures (4): Look At The Moon! (live Phoenix Festival 97) (1)_: "The Jean Genie" Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:31:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:15:47 +0200") Message-ID: <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> (lambda () 1) >> => (closure (t) nil 1) > > Where do you see something like the above in my recipe? The recipe > was: If you put Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> (lambda () 1) >> => (closure (t) nil 1) > > Where do you see something like the above in my recipe? The recipe > was: If you put (lambda () 1) into *scratch* and then `C-u C-x C-e' it'll spit put (closure (t) nil 1) Because that's what that form evaluates to in lexically bound buffers. `lambda' is no longer self-evaluating, and hasn't been for a few years. (But I guess it's pretty recent that *scratch* defaults to lexical.) And it's the same with (lambda () (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)) of course. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:15:47 +0200
Message-Id: <83v90h8zjw.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed,
24 Nov 2021 13:51:56 +0100)
Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN>
<831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN
> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:51:56 +0100
>
> > What I want to see is my lambda, the one I put in the hook.
>
> But you put a closure on your hook, not the lambda.
>
> (lambda () 1)
> => (closure (t) nil 1)
Where do you see something like the above in my recipe? The recipe
was:
(add-hook 'mail-mode-hook
#'(lambda () (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p
'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)))
AFAIU, this adds a function to the hook. And the function is not a
constant 1, it has some code.
And please bear with me, I'm NOT teasing Emacs. I'm REALLY confused
here. It's a good-faith bug report about confusion. I added an
anonymous function to the hook, but Emacs says I added a closure.
WTF?
Btw, this comes from my ~/.emacs, so the problem is not limited to
evaluation in *scratch*.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 12:52:14 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 07:52:14 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53446 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mprl0-0006yf-Jq for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:52:14 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:56550) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mprkx-0006yD-44 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:52:13 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=TDNJhkB9Eif5UtwMlSprXAJeHMscCjrmM8H61BT7sok=; b=A/VtKDGq1dBjxeOZ1j8oenZSWf pA07X8SVdumXdAIwR16Z4sNt/g5hgHaRHMrcF9rsJMg5/sJ6sw786AL5GhwHAHSrMF6WbroEzwZNJ rdsKc95YKH7M21LMknINfzfEfuVLd7QvSupahdK4AjADwYtpfe0Wvikerfx8Kx0SFryA=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mprkm-0001iM-Sn; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:52:03 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwBAMAAAClLOS0AAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAALVBMVEUlJSM1MzEhIB4f Hx0aGhlRTUlxamNiXFcMDQ1BPjqflYuNhHxEQT2EfHT///9WePL3AAAAAWJLR0QOb70wTwAAAAd0 SU1FB+ULGAwyOdNPS+0AAAFaSURBVDjLY2AQRAeMggJAQQYiAJOSkhKDAhYJoDizshJWLQpMSgpw LQi9jkxAXUyYZjEaAiUUlDDNcgw0cHEBOUABxSglBpZUJ/F0FiYmNAkGJvZw0TL2EAYFoBNQjUoV S28NmemALszgFiFVKlrqycSAIbFcOjBQtAAogeYutgmhohMiKh0U4LZDAMtxx9LC7SGVDkCjUCSY xMoTC8vSStBCAwgUV6cUTk0MAStCtWTp9FDBgATMoPJcyVseGprqgCHhul29emtqGBaJVPFd265i kwiYfT3tehiG1QyeJeFpZbPCQfGIFk8lB2vLpUIxTGJgChRIrV47FdMOZlHHk2mBgVh0uEq6FjJO wfQ4g0IA60ROBqzpShCYaLEBRgbs4kCAS4IRpwSpJlERgPINVjdJiuDyOi6TaO9YHD5QAgEoE14G KKm4oAKIN1lgXI+ODheXFgjbgYEBAAcTR5MLCXBaAAAAJXRFWHRkYXRlOmNyZWF0ZQAyMDIxLTEx LTI0VDEyOjUwOjU3KzAwOjAwqH+t+QAAACV0RVh0ZGF0ZTptb2RpZnkAMjAyMS0xMS0yNFQxMjo1 MDo1NyswMDowMNkiFUUAAAAASUVORK5CYII= X-Now-Playing: Richard Horowitz's _Eros in Arabia_: "Tamara Alexa Inter-Dimensional Travel Agent" Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 13:51:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:48:45 +0200") Message-ID: <87v90hu36b.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. The key is bound to a >> closure > > Which key? I evaluated an add-hook expression. I meant the hook. Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. The key is bound to a >> closure > > Which key? I evaluated an add-hook expression. I meant the hook. > What I want to see is my lambda, the one I put in the hook. But you put a closure on your hook, not the lambda. (lambda () 1) => (closure (t) nil 1) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 12:49:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 07:49:03 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53442 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mprhu-0006tQ-Sa for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:49:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33738) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mprht-0006sx-73 for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:49:01 -0500 Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=56414 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mprhn-0008Pn-RP; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:48:55 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=MwuA1FgVKcV2DCUNyNWpKDO/8P3Ps8V1/MoN/VjBAeM=; b=YJebWoxwWy3l uSwiQ1o+h23MWNtSNQRYLwgkowf4yAvlyqyfkBisnovwx8FcGp5i0lwjBWh/bn/7UqVVg/40s0E2C CKRM9h12bH+Dj7hbP+OPmcZ5yEidDg4BFmCs2fipnRnYCkYaZsAObDfjUQKxoAkNovBtz4pM6qzgE HxB1FumYaxKn2DtDkXxiCsy8y+lFPlXSgHfKBh8tHrBTlAM079f1LEfi7DuxWI8C0iT+G/hj8bV5J E3x7wS1Lh9M5j5ODnrLQlYyyGx//o0Bz5jxjDHvkcsOvtwBMxatAILqS1a5GYNqvP6bVK+nHsxhAm NgjpArdtQToK7y/DQv91EA==; Received: from [87.69.77.57] (port=2081 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1mprhf-0001wg-EL; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 07:48:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 14:48:45 +0200 Message-Id: <831r35afde.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:35:30 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> > Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:35:30 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > . The result: > > > > ((closure (t) nil (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify))) > > > > Why are we present a simple lambda as a closure? why confuse users > > with something tricky instead of showing the lambda-form the user > > typed? > > I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. The key is bound to a > closure Which key? I evaluated an add-hook expression. What I want to see is my lambda, the one I put in the hook. > (If you switch lexical-binding off in *scratch* it won't be.) I doubt that we want to tell users to switch off lexical-binding to see reasonably-formatted results from evaluation.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 07:35:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 24 02:35:42 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52909 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1mpmog-0000d4-9N for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 02:35:42 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:54220) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mpmoe-0000cp-Un for 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 02:35:41 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=xjFV0Ys+zqijt2t+EvqXThTHcpJvglQ0IUKkxLB8r1A=; b=BWcGhaUx43jI4Nicyy7SwIaljA kHn8zSoMEQCPmvxeooRDw7nbOlg7VJ4yXr4lCP6bP41y1sWRGtqOxmmgx2SPy6Ups+xojEU7e/3dg aZwPbSuo3xX2FTrcr8ZfWeCow9lX2TNcrp5DnJ+8MKav6CUBFMKAluxm165yKldKBlIk=; Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1mpmoV-0007dM-H4; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:35:33 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Now-Playing: Irreversible Entanglements's _Open The Gates_: "Keys to Creation" Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:35:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:56:20 +0200") Message-ID: <874k82vwe5.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > . The result: > > ((closure (t) nil (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify))) > > Why are we present a simple lambda as a closure? why confuse users > with something tricky i [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 52063 Cc: 52063 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > . The result: > > ((closure (t) nil (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify))) > > Why are we present a simple lambda as a closure? why confuse users > with something tricky instead of showing the lambda-form the user > typed? I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. The key is bound to a closure, so that's what Emacs is showing. (If you switch lexical-binding off in *scratch* it won't be.) Do you mean that it shouldn't be a closure if the environment is just t? I'm not sure what the repercussions of that would be. Stefan? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:56:20 +0200
Message-Id: <83czmqaegb.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda
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To reproduce:
. emacs -Q
. Type into *scratch:
(add-hook 'mail-mode-hook
#'(lambda () (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p
'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)))
. Evaluate the above expression with "C-x C-e"
. Type into *scratch*:
mail-mode-hook C-j
. The result:
((closure (t) nil (setq flyspell-generic-check-word-p 'mail-mode-flyspell-verify)))
Why are we present a simple lambda as a closure? why confuse users
with something tricky instead of showing the lambda-form the user
typed?
In GNU Emacs 28.0.60 (build 156, i686-pc-mingw32)
of 2021-11-23 built on HOME-C4E4A596F7
Repository revision: d791cd556d622accb935e4dd230023c485d1e07a
Repository branch: emacs-28
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
System Description: Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 3 (v5.1.0.2600)
Configured using:
'configure -C --prefix=/d/usr --with-wide-int --with-modules
--enable-checking=yes,glyphs 'CFLAGS=-O0 -gdwarf-4 -g3''
Configured features:
ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS HARFBUZZ JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NOTIFY
W32NOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SOUND THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS XPM
ZLIB
Important settings:
value of $LANG: ENU
locale-coding-system: cp1255
Major mode: Lisp Interaction
Minor modes in effect:
tooltip-mode: t
global-eldoc-mode: t
eldoc-mode: t
show-paren-mode: t
electric-indent-mode: t
mouse-wheel-mode: t
tool-bar-mode: t
menu-bar-mode: t
file-name-shadow-mode: t
global-font-lock-mode: t
font-lock-mode: t
blink-cursor-mode: t
auto-composition-mode: t
auto-encryption-mode: t
auto-compression-mode: t
line-number-mode: t
indent-tabs-mode: t
transient-mark-mode: t
Load-path shadows:
None found.
Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr warnings emacsbug message rmc puny dired
dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config
gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core
cl-macs eieio-loaddefs password-cache json map text-property-search
time-date subr-x seq byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv mm-decode
mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader
cl-loaddefs cl-lib sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util
mail-prsvr mail-utils dabbrev iso-transl tooltip eldoc paren electric
uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel dos-w32
ls-lisp disp-table term/w32-win w32-win w32-vars term/common-win
tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace
newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar
rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock
font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic
cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao
korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript
charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray
cl-preloaded nadvice button loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files
window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages
mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote threads w32notify
w32 lcms2 multi-tty make-network-process emacs)
Memory information:
((conses 16 57044 6934)
(symbols 48 7874 2)
(strings 16 21867 2892)
(string-bytes 1 643712)
(vectors 16 12975)
(vector-slots 8 175379 9690)
(floats 8 28 53)
(intervals 40 316 141)
(buffers 888 12))
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#52063; Package emacs.
Full text available.
GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd,
1994-97 Ian Jackson.