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Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 15:07:23 +0100
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---------
How about if the KEYMAP argument (or the :keymap slot) of
`define-minor-mode', if given, planted a `defcustom' form for the
keymap, thus automagically making each minor mode keymap a
customization option?
Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> Subject: bug#55301: Acknowledgement (27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap) Message-ID: <handler.55301.B.165193245827431.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org> References: <CAJ1MqVGC-CeJoP+URKKf4ceqLx6rMYFzJrL-hJbCfouQ-=csyw@HIDDEN> X-Gnu-PR-Message: ack 55301 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 55301 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 14:08:02 +0000 Thank you for filing a new bug report with debbugs.gnu.org. This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message has been received. Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please send it to 55301 <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Please do not send mail to help-debbugs@HIDDEN unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system. --=20 55301: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D55301 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@HIDDEN with problems
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Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
Resent-From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
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Content preview: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes: > How about if
the KEYMAP argument (or the :keymap slot) of > `define-minor-mode', if given,
planted a `defcustom' form for the > keymap, thus automagically making each
minor mode keymap a > customiza [...]
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Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes:
> How about if the KEYMAP argument (or the :keymap slot) of
> `define-minor-mode', if given, planted a `defcustom' form for the
> keymap, thus automagically making each minor mode keymap a
> customization option?
We don't use defcustoms for other mode maps, so I'm not sure why we
should for the ones tied to `define-minor-mode'? Am I missing
something?
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 17:49:35 +0100
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If nobody sees any benefit from the idea, I imagine the best thing is
to just close this.
On Sat, 7 May 2022 at 16:34, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > How about if the KEYMAP argument (or the :keymap slot) of
> > `define-minor-mode', if given, planted a `defcustom' form for the
> > keymap, thus automagically making each minor mode keymap a
> > customization option?
>
> We don't use defcustoms for other mode maps, so I'm not sure why we
> should for the ones tied to `define-minor-mode'? Am I missing
> something?
>
> --
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
> bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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Content preview: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes: > If nobody sees
any benefit from the idea, I imagine the best thing is > to just close this.
I just don't understand the request -- we don't have a Customize interface
for altering keymaps anyway.
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Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes:
> If nobody sees any benefit from the idea, I imagine the best thing is
> to just close this.
I just don't understand the request -- we don't have a Customize
interface for altering keymaps anyway.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
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Not a built-in one, no, but it is not difficult to construct a composite
defcustom. There are plenty of sequence types and a keybinding type to compose
with.
Perhaps Emacs *should* have a standard built-in keymap defcustom type, but that
would be the subject for a separate RFE.
What I am proposing is something along the lines of this: when a mode (major or
minor, it's strictly irrelevant) declares a keymap, part of the processing of
the expansion of the mode definition should include a defcustom enabling the
user to customize that keymap using the Customize UI, rather than (only) by
writing elisp code. In other words, where foo-mode-map is currently implemented
(I assume) using a defvar, that should change to a defcustom. That's really all
I'm suggesting: change the defvar (or whatever) to a defcustom.
On Sun, 8 May 2022 at 12:46, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > If nobody sees any benefit from the idea, I imagine the best thing is
> > to just close this.
>
> I just don't understand the request -- we don't have a Customize
> interface for altering keymaps anyway.
>
> --
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
> bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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Content preview: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes: > What I am
proposing
is something along the lines of this: when a mode > (major or minor, it's
strictly irrelevant) declares a keymap,
part of > the processing of the expansion
of the mode definition [...]
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Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes:
> What I am proposing is something along the lines of this: when a mode
> (major or minor, it's strictly irrelevant) declares a keymap, part of
> the processing of the expansion of the mode definition should include
> a defcustom enabling the user to customize that keymap using the
> Customize UI, rather than (only) by writing elisp code. In other
> words, where foo-mode-map is currently implemented (I assume) using a
> defvar, that should change to a defcustom. That's really all I'm
> suggesting: change the defvar (or whatever) to a defcustom.
Emacs doesn't have a Customize UI to alter keymaps, so changing defvars
to defcustom isn't currently useful (because there's no :type that
could be used other than `sexp').
It would be possible to create such an UI, of course, but it would work
quite differently than all other Customize widgets. I don't think
anybody wants to have the entire definitions of keymaps in their .emacs
files -- they want to add a keystroke or remove a keystroke or two, and
that's it. (And, besides, they want to get new keystrokes that are
added to the maps.)
But it'd be nice to have; sure.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 10:52:58 +0100
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How about ":type '(alist :key-type key-sequence :value-type function)"?
On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 10:34, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > What I am proposing is something along the lines of this: when a mode
> > (major or minor, it's strictly irrelevant) declares a keymap, part of
> > the processing of the expansion of the mode definition should include
> > a defcustom enabling the user to customize that keymap using the
> > Customize UI, rather than (only) by writing elisp code. In other
> > words, where foo-mode-map is currently implemented (I assume) using a
> > defvar, that should change to a defcustom. That's really all I'm
> > suggesting: change the defvar (or whatever) to a defcustom.
>
> Emacs doesn't have a Customize UI to alter keymaps, so changing defvars
> to defcustom isn't currently useful (because there's no :type that
> could be used other than `sexp').
>
> It would be possible to create such an UI, of course, but it would work
> quite differently than all other Customize widgets. I don't think
> anybody wants to have the entire definitions of keymaps in their .emacs
> files -- they want to add a keystroke or remove a keystroke or two, and
> that's it. (And, besides, they want to get new keystrokes that are
> added to the maps.)
>
> But it'd be nice to have; sure.
>
> --
> (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
> bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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(Phil Hudson's message of "Mon, 9 May 2022 10:52:58 +0100")
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Content preview: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes: > How about
":type
'(alist :key-type key-sequence :value-type function)"? Like I said, that
wouldn't be very useful, because people don't want the entire keymap in their
.emacs files anyway.
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Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes:
> How about ":type '(alist :key-type key-sequence :value-type function)"?
Like I said, that wouldn't be very useful, because people don't want the
entire keymap in their .emacs files anyway.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 10:55:06 +0100
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On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 10:34, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> (And, besides, they want to get new keystrokes that are
> added to the maps.)
Customize does support insertion of new elements in its composite
types, of course.
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Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 11:02:20 +0100
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On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 10:54, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > How about ":type '(alist :key-type key-sequence :value-type function)"?
>
> Like I said, that wouldn't be very useful, because people don't want the
> entire keymap in their .emacs files anyway.
Isn't that exactly the right place for declarative personal preferences?
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(Phil Hudson's message of "Mon, 9 May 2022 11:02:20 +0100")
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>>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 11:02:20 +0100, Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN=
> said:
Phil> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 10:54, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> w=
rote:
>>=20
>> Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> writes:
>>=20
>> > How about ":type '(alist :key-type key-sequence :value-type functi=
on)"?
>>=20
>> Like I said, that wouldn't be very useful, because people don't want=
the
>> entire keymap in their .emacs files anyway.
Phil> Isn't that exactly the right place for declarative personal prefe=
rences?
Yes, but if a keymap were a defcustom, then the whole keymap would be
in your .emacs, and you would not receive any updates if the keymap
definition changed, since that affects the *default* defcustom value.
Now if you wanted to define a defcustom type for changing bindings in an
existing keymap, that=CA=BCs a different proposition (and we already have
define-key, so I=CA=BCm not so sure of the utility).
Robert
--=20
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 16:04:26 +0100
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On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 14:39, Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 11:02:20 +0100, Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN=
om> said:
>
> Phil> Isn't that exactly the right place for declarative personal pre=
ferences?
>
> Yes, but if a keymap were a defcustom, then the whole keymap would be
> in your .emacs, and you would not receive any updates if the keymap
> definition changed, since that affects the *default* defcustom value.
True that, and I had not thought of it, but now that I have, I still
don't see it as necessarily confounding. Doesn't the same objection
(if it is one) apply to *every* defcustom? Is that not the risk that
the user takes when they change any custom option, and the risk that
every dev takes when they introduce a defcustom?
> Now if you wanted to define a defcustom type for changing bindings in an
> existing keymap, that=CA=BCs a different proposition (and we already have
> define-key, so I=CA=BCm not so sure of the utility).
That is exactly what I (think I) want. The utility is admittedly
marginal but perhaps not trivial. It's the difference between a
declarative approach, which I take to be intrinsically more accessible
and intuitive, especially to non-programmers, versus an imperative
one. It's essentially the case for custom options in general.
I suppose my maximalist claim would be that mode-defined keymaps are
self-evidently customize options that have somehow historically been
accidentally overlooked. I'm not entirely convinced myself, though.
Maybe we should just let it sit for a while. There's obviously
something about it that doesn't *feel* right to people with deeper
insight than I have.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 17:03:07 +0100
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So after a week, can I get a clear yes or no on this? Either is fine.
On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 16:04, Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 14:39, Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> wrote:
> >
> > >>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 11:02:20 +0100, Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@iname=
.com> said:
> >
> > Phil> Isn't that exactly the right place for declarative personal p=
references?
> >
> > Yes, but if a keymap were a defcustom, then the whole keymap would be
> > in your .emacs, and you would not receive any updates if the keymap
> > definition changed, since that affects the *default* defcustom value.
>
> True that, and I had not thought of it, but now that I have, I still
> don't see it as necessarily confounding. Doesn't the same objection
> (if it is one) apply to *every* defcustom? Is that not the risk that
> the user takes when they change any custom option, and the risk that
> every dev takes when they introduce a defcustom?
>
> > Now if you wanted to define a defcustom type for changing bindings in a=
n
> > existing keymap, that=CA=BCs a different proposition (and we already ha=
ve
> > define-key, so I=CA=BCm not so sure of the utility).
>
> That is exactly what I (think I) want. The utility is admittedly
> marginal but perhaps not trivial. It's the difference between a
> declarative approach, which I take to be intrinsically more accessible
> and intuitive, especially to non-programmers, versus an imperative
> one. It's essentially the case for custom options in general.
>
> I suppose my maximalist claim would be that mode-defined keymaps are
> self-evidently customize options that have somehow historically been
> accidentally overlooked. I'm not entirely convinced myself, though.
> Maybe we should just let it sit for a while. There's obviously
> something about it that doesn't *feel* right to people with deeper
> insight than I have.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 17:03:07 +0100, Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN=
m> said:
Phil> So after a week, can I get a clear yes or no on this? Either is f=
ine.
You mean using customize for keymaps? I=CA=BCd say 'no', but I=CA=BCm not an
Emacs maintainer.
Robert
--=20
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Content preview: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes: > You mean using customize
for keymaps? =?UTF-8?Q?I=CA=BCd?= say 'no', but =?UTF-8?Q?I=CA=BCm?= not an > Emacs maintainer. Yes, adding
a defcustom now for keymaps would be pointless.
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Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes:
> You mean using customize for keymaps? I=CA=BCd say 'no', but I=CA=BCm not=
an
> Emacs maintainer.
Yes, adding a defcustom now for keymaps would be pointless.
But it'd be nice if a defcustom interface for keymaps existed.
--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 09:13:26 +0200
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17 May 2022 19:27:14 +0200")
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>>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 19:27:14 +0200, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN=
> said:
Lars> Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes:
>> You mean using customize for keymaps? I=CA=BCd say 'no', but I=CA=BC=
m not an
>> Emacs maintainer.
Lars> Yes, adding a defcustom now for keymaps would be pointless.
Lars> But it'd be nice if a defcustom interface for keymaps existed.
Something like this?
(defcustom keymap-additions nil
"Alist of bindings to add to keymaps at startup.
Keys are keymap symbols, values are lists of conses, format
(key-binding . command)
Where KEY-BINDING is a kbd format key specification, and COMMAND is an
Emacs command.")
So you could have that be
'((fundamental-mode-map . (("C-a" . mark-whole-buffer)
("C-b" . backward-word)))
(elisp-mode-map . (("C-a" . mark-defun))))
Robert
--=20
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 11:59:12 +0100
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On Wed, 18 May 2022 at 08:13, Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Tue, 17 May 2022 19:27:14 +0200, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN=
rg> said:
>
> Lars> Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes:
> >> You mean using customize for keymaps? I=CA=BCd say 'no', but I=CA=
=BCm not an
> >> Emacs maintainer.
>
> Lars> Yes, adding a defcustom now for keymaps would be pointless.
>
> Lars> But it'd be nice if a defcustom interface for keymaps existed.
>
> Something like this?
>
> (defcustom keymap-additions nil
> "Alist of bindings to add to keymaps at startup.
> Keys are keymap symbols, values are lists of conses, format
> (key-binding . command)
>
> Where KEY-BINDING is a kbd format key specification, and COMMAND is an
> Emacs command.")
>
> So you could have that be
>
> '((fundamental-mode-map . (("C-a" . mark-whole-buffer)
> ("C-b" . backward-word)))
> (elisp-mode-map . (("C-a" . mark-defun))))
Exactly. It should include
:type '(alist :key-type key-sequence :value-type function)
as I suggested 9 days ago in this thread.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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Content preview: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes: > Lars> But it'd be
nice if a defcustom interface for keymaps existed. > > Something like this?
> > (defcustom keymap-additions nil > "Alist of bindings to add to keymaps
at startup. > Keys are keymap [...]
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Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes:
> Lars> But it'd be nice if a defcustom interface for keymaps existed.
>
> Something like this?
>
> (defcustom keymap-additions nil
> "Alist of bindings to add to keymaps at startup.
> Keys are keymap symbols, values are lists of conses, format
> (key-binding . command)
>
> Where KEY-BINDING is a kbd format key specification, and COMMAND is an
> Emacs command.")
>
> So you could have that be
>
> '((fundamental-mode-map . (("C-a" . mark-whole-buffer)
> ("C-b" . backward-word)))
> (elisp-mode-map . (("C-a" . mark-defun))))
Yes, something like that. But the major work would be to create a
sensible widget that allows people to customise the keymap in question.
It'd be nice if it displayed a graphical keyboard in a buffer, and you
could click on keys to specify what they should output. =F0=9F=98=80
Or something simpler, for instance a widget where you ask the user to
enter a chord/key stroke, and then prompt what command to bind that to.
Or... something else. Many possibilities here.
--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap
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From: Phil Hudson <phil.hudson@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2022 14:39:17 +0100
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On Wed, 18 May 2022 at 12:29, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> Yes, something like that. But the major work would be to create a
> sensible widget that allows people to customise the keymap in question.
> It'd be nice if it displayed a graphical keyboard in a buffer, and you
> could click on keys to specify what they should output. =F0=9F=98=80
>
> Or something simpler, for instance a widget where you ask the user to
> enter a chord/key stroke, and then prompt what command to bind that to.
> Or... something else. Many possibilities here.
What excellent ideas!
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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
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> Yes, something like that. But the major work would be to create a
> sensible widget that allows people to customise the keymap in question.
> It'd be nice if it displayed a graphical keyboard in a buffer, and you
> could click on keys to specify what they should output. 😀
> Or something simpler, for instance a widget where you ask the user to
> enter a chord/key stroke, and then prompt what command to bind that to.
> Or... something else. Many possibilities here.
I like this idea too.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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