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Subject: bug#56796: 29.0.50; Hard newlines not respected in code comments?
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Are hard newlines supposed to be respected when they are in code
comments?  To demonstrate what I mean consider the two following cases
in emacs -Q and after M-x use-hard-newlines RET,

1. Paste the following lisp comment in the *scratch* buffer

       ;; This buffer is for text that is not saved, and for Lisp.
       ;; To create a file, visit it with C-x C-f and enter text in its buffer.
       
   And make the newline after "Lisp." hard (RET C-k works).  Then
   say M-q, "To create" creeps up to the first line.

2. Paste the following text in a text-mode buffer

       This buffer is for text that is not saved, and for Lisp.
       To create a file, visit it with C-x C-f and enter text in its buffer.

   Then make the newline after "Lisp." hard again.  Say M-q now, "To
   create" stays in the second line.

(1) happens in python-mode and sh-mode too so I don't think it is
major-mode specific?

In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 26, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, Xaw scroll bars)
 of 2022-07-22 built on astatine
Repository revision: 12a3137cd381cb743768033e789b900b015041d7
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101003
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux bookworm/sid

Configured using:
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To: Visuwesh <visuweshm@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#56796: Acknowledgement (29.0.50; Hard newlines not respected
 in code comments?)
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Subject: bug#56796: 29.0.50; Hard newlines not respected in code comments?
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2022 10:26:46 +0300
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <8735ema73q.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Visuwesh on Wed, 27 Jul
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> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2022 21:19:29 +0530
> 
> Are hard newlines supposed to be respected when they are in code
> comments?

The answer is "it depends", AFAICS.

The main problem is that fill-comment-paragraph doesn't seem to honor
use-hard-newlines.  So any major mode whose fill-paragraph-function
uses that for filling comments will fail to pay attention to hard
newlines in comments.  In your scenario, if I set both
fill-paragraph-function and fill-paragraph-handle-comment to nil, hard
newlines in comments are honored as expected.

use-hard-newlines is weird: it is documented only for Enriched mode,
but that is at least incomplete, because we call functions from
fill.el high and low in many major modes, so at least some of them
inherit the use-hard-newlines-specific code when they call functions
which do.  For example, AFAICT use-hard-newlines is supported in Lisp
doc strings.

Adding Stefan to CC, who write fill-comment-paragraph.  If we want
use-hard-newlines to be supported in comments, we should modify
fill-comment-paragraph to honor it in some way, perhaps simply
deferring to fill-region in that case.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#56796: 29.0.50; Hard newlines not respected in code comments?
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From: Visuwesh <visuweshm@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2022 13:50:06 +0530
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[=E0=AE=B5=E0=AE=BF=E0=AE=AF=E0=AE=BE=E0=AE=B4=E0=AE=A9=E0=AF=8D =E0=AE=9C=
=E0=AF=82=E0=AE=B2=E0=AF=88 28, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2022 21:19:29 +0530
>>=20
>> Are hard newlines supposed to be respected when they are in code
>> comments?
>
> The answer is "it depends", AFAICS.
>
> The main problem is that fill-comment-paragraph doesn't seem to honor
> use-hard-newlines.  So any major mode whose fill-paragraph-function
> uses that for filling comments will fail to pay attention to hard
> newlines in comments.  In your scenario, if I set both
> fill-paragraph-function and fill-paragraph-handle-comment to nil, hard
> newlines in comments are honored as expected.

Thanks for the explanation, I figured that was the case.

> If we want use-hard-newlines to be supported in comments, we should
> modify fill-comment-paragraph to honor it in some way, perhaps simply
> deferring to fill-region in that case.

That would be most welcome.  Hard newlines was the "missing key" in
making writing plain text more easy and enjoyable to me.

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> Adding Stefan to CC, who write fill-comment-paragraph.  If we want
> use-hard-newlines to be supported in comments, we should modify
> fill-comment-paragraph to honor it in some way, perhaps simply
> deferring to fill-region in that case.

It was many years ago, but IIRC the autor of that code presumed it was
used in "code" and he also presumed that hard newlines are only for
"text", and furthermore it presumed that the two are mutually exclusive.
He was apparently a quite naive young fellow,

At the same time, I'm not sure how important it is to handle hard
newlines in ELisp comments, so I'm not sure how important it is to
fix this.  This bug report only gives a (good) recipe but not a good
reason for doing such a thing, so maybe some context explaining how/why
such hard newlines can appear in comments would help motivate a fix.


        Stefan

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[=E0=AE=B5=E0=AF=86=E0=AE=B3=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=B3=E0=AE=BF =E0=AE=9C=E0=AF=82=
=E0=AE=B2=E0=AF=88 29, 2022] Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,=
 the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote:

> At the same time, I'm not sure how important it is to handle hard
> newlines in ELisp comments, so I'm not sure how important it is to
> fix this.  This bug report only gives a (good) recipe but not a good
> reason for doing such a thing, so maybe some context explaining how/why
> such hard newlines can appear in comments would help motivate a fix.

Well, wrt Elisp comments at least, we have the Commentary section where
we write quite a lot about the package in question where having hard
newlines would be really handy since you write those text like you do in
a regular text buffer.

More generally: I'm not sure how common this pattern is but I tend to do

    ;; TODO/FIXME: Something...
    ;; Ideas and thoughts on how to clear it here.

Now if you do M-q there, your neatly arranged text is destroyed.  (I am
probably biased) I also catch this pattern in the Emacs source tree as
well.

[ Although not related to Elisp: Documentation for functions/whatever in
  Go are written as comments.  ]

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[=E0=AE=B5=E0=AF=86=E0=AE=B3=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=B3=E0=AE=BF =E0=AE=9C=E0=AF=82=
=E0=AE=B2=E0=AF=88 29, 2022] Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,=
 the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote:

> At the same time, I'm not sure how important it is to handle hard
> newlines in ELisp comments, so I'm not sure how important it is to
> fix this.  This bug report only gives a (good) recipe but not a good
> reason for doing such a thing, so maybe some context explaining how/why
> such hard newlines can appear in comments would help motivate a fix.

Well, wrt Elisp comments at least, we have the Commentary section where
we write quite a lot about the package in question where having hard
newlines would be really handy since you write those text like you do in
a regular text buffer.

More generally: I'm not sure how common this pattern is but I tend to do

    ;; TODO/FIXME: Something...
    ;; Ideas and thoughts on how to clear it here.

Now if you do M-q there, your neatly arranged text is destroyed.  (I am
probably biased) I also catch this pattern in the Emacs source tree as
well.

[ Although not related to Elisp: Documentation for functions/whatever in
  Go are written as comments.  ]

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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[=E0=AE=B5=E0=AF=86=E0=AE=B3=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=B3=E0=AE=BF =E0=AE=9C=E0=AF=82=
=E0=AE=B2=E0=AF=88 29, 2022] Visuwesh wrote:

>> At the same time, I'm not sure how important it is to handle hard
>> newlines in ELisp comments, so I'm not sure how important it is to
>> fix this.  This bug report only gives a (good) recipe but not a good
>> reason for doing such a thing, so maybe some context explaining how/why
>> such hard newlines can appear in comments would help motivate a fix.

But maybe me using hard newlines to tame adaptive-fill-mode is the wrong
approach: I would like to write lists such as

    . blah blah blah
    . blah blah blah

without it getting filled to

    . blah blah blah. blah blah blah

I can't blame adaptive-fill-mode for it: it can only be ever so smart
and hard newlines seemed like the solution for "when I say newline, I
MEAN IT".

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> But maybe me using hard newlines to tame adaptive-fill-mode is the wrong
> approach: I would like to write lists such as
>
>     . blah blah blah
>     . blah blah blah

I'm not sure "." should be accepted by default, but...

> I can't blame adaptive-fill-mode for it: it can only be ever so smart
> and hard newlines seemed like the solution for "when I say newline, I
> MEAN IT".

I do think it's worth a bug report, because we should handle at least
some "common" cases of itemized lists in ELisp comments, and AFAIK we
currently don't handle any at all.


        Stefan

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> More generally: I'm not sure how common this pattern is but I tend to do
>
>     ;; TODO/FIXME: Something...
>     ;; Ideas and thoughts on how to clear it here.
>
> Now if you do M-q there, your neatly arranged text is destroyed.  (I am
> probably biased) I also catch this pattern in the Emacs source tree as
> well.

It never occurred to me to use hard newlines for such cases.  What I use
instead is either:
- add extra newlines to mark the paragraph boundaries to use
  (that's just as easy as adding hard newlines, but requires removing
  those extra newlines afterward).
- Select the intended paragraph rather than rely on M-q's automatic
  decision of what's a paragraph.

Hard newlines are a good idea, for this use-case, indeed, tho it would
be even better if we could somehow represent that info in the text
itself so it's properly saved into the file.


        Stefan

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> More generally: I'm not sure how common this pattern is but I tend to do
>
>     ;; TODO/FIXME: Something...
>     ;; Ideas and thoughts on how to clear it here.
>
> Now if you do M-q there, your neatly arranged text is destroyed.  (I am
> probably biased) I also catch this pattern in the Emacs source tree as
> well.

It never occurred to me to use hard newlines for such cases.  What I use
instead is either:
- add extra newlines to mark the paragraph boundaries to use
  (that's just as easy as adding hard newlines, but requires removing
  those extra newlines afterward).
- Select the intended paragraph rather than rely on M-q's automatic
  decision of what's a paragraph.

Hard newlines are a good idea, for this use-case, indeed, tho it would
be even better if we could somehow represent that info in the text
itself so it's properly saved into the file.


        Stefan

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From: Visuwesh <visuweshm@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwv8roc7wtp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier via's
 message of "Fri, 29 Jul 2022 11:41:26 -0400")
References: <8735ema73q.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k07xaea1.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv1qu49eop.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87fsikynn1.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87bkt8ynbh.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv8roc7wtp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2022 21:46:16 +0530
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[=E0=AE=B5=E0=AF=86=E0=AE=B3=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=B3=E0=AE=BF =E0=AE=9C=E0=AF=82=
=E0=AE=B2=E0=AF=88 29, 2022] Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,=
 the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote:

>> More generally: I'm not sure how common this pattern is but I tend to do
>>
>>     ;; TODO/FIXME: Something...
>>     ;; Ideas and thoughts on how to clear it here.
>>
>> Now if you do M-q there, your neatly arranged text is destroyed.  (I am
>> probably biased) I also catch this pattern in the Emacs source tree as
>> well.
>
> It never occurred to me to use hard newlines for such cases.  What I use
> instead is either:
> - add extra newlines to mark the paragraph boundaries to use
>   (that's just as easy as adding hard newlines, but requires removing
>   those extra newlines afterward).

This is what I did but frankly I am really tired of this pattern since
when you go back to revise the text, you have to do the thing yet again.
(Granted, you only avoid this when you haven't killed the buffer or
Emacs but we don't do that here, do we?  ;-)

> - Select the intended paragraph rather than rely on M-q's automatic
>   decision of what's a paragraph.

I always forget that M-q takes an active region, this is a viable option
as well.  I think the first option is quicker though.

> Hard newlines are a good idea, for this use-case, indeed, tho it would
> be even better if we could somehow represent that info in the text
> itself so it's properly saved into the file.

You're not the first one: https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/CAArVCkQHmwqHvcOEu=
rBYLcWS74nov8OAH4fnX8XbUr2JY2nCKA@HIDDEN/

[=E0=AE=B5=E0=AF=86=E0=AE=B3=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=B3=E0=AE=BF =E0=AE=9C=E0=AF=82=
=E0=AE=B2=E0=AF=88 29, 2022] Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,=
 the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote:

>> But maybe me using hard newlines to tame adaptive-fill-mode is the wrong
>> approach: I would like to write lists such as
>>
>>     . blah blah blah
>>     . blah blah blah
>
> I'm not sure "." should be accepted by default, but...

Indeed, it's a bit too "out there" if you know what I mean.

>> I can't blame adaptive-fill-mode for it: it can only be ever so smart
>> and hard newlines seemed like the solution for "when I say newline, I
>> MEAN IT".
>
> I do think it's worth a bug report, because we should handle at least
> some "common" cases of itemized lists in ELisp comments, and AFAIK we
> currently don't handle any at all.

When I was searching for discussions on adaptive-fill-mode in
emacs-devel to make sense of it, I found the past you agreeing with me
in the wild.  The discussion can be found here: https://yhetil.org/emacs-de=
vel/jwvk5wvx5jv.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN/
but I'm not sure what happened afterwards.  Hmm... but now that I
re-read it, it is not the same problem but it is a problem that
often bites me in the back.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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From: Visuwesh <visuweshm@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <jwv8roc7wtp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> (Stefan Monnier via's
 message of "Fri, 29 Jul 2022 11:41:26 -0400")
References: <8735ema73q.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k07xaea1.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <jwv1qu49eop.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN> <87fsikynn1.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <87bkt8ynbh.fsf@HIDDEN> <jwv8roc7wtp.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2022 21:46:16 +0530
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[=E0=AE=B5=E0=AF=86=E0=AE=B3=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=B3=E0=AE=BF =E0=AE=9C=E0=AF=82=
=E0=AE=B2=E0=AF=88 29, 2022] Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,=
 the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote:

>> More generally: I'm not sure how common this pattern is but I tend to do
>>
>>     ;; TODO/FIXME: Something...
>>     ;; Ideas and thoughts on how to clear it here.
>>
>> Now if you do M-q there, your neatly arranged text is destroyed.  (I am
>> probably biased) I also catch this pattern in the Emacs source tree as
>> well.
>
> It never occurred to me to use hard newlines for such cases.  What I use
> instead is either:
> - add extra newlines to mark the paragraph boundaries to use
>   (that's just as easy as adding hard newlines, but requires removing
>   those extra newlines afterward).

This is what I did but frankly I am really tired of this pattern since
when you go back to revise the text, you have to do the thing yet again.
(Granted, you only avoid this when you haven't killed the buffer or
Emacs but we don't do that here, do we?  ;-)

> - Select the intended paragraph rather than rely on M-q's automatic
>   decision of what's a paragraph.

I always forget that M-q takes an active region, this is a viable option
as well.  I think the first option is quicker though.

> Hard newlines are a good idea, for this use-case, indeed, tho it would
> be even better if we could somehow represent that info in the text
> itself so it's properly saved into the file.

You're not the first one: https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/CAArVCkQHmwqHvcOEu=
rBYLcWS74nov8OAH4fnX8XbUr2JY2nCKA@HIDDEN/

[=E0=AE=B5=E0=AF=86=E0=AE=B3=E0=AF=8D=E0=AE=B3=E0=AE=BF =E0=AE=9C=E0=AF=82=
=E0=AE=B2=E0=AF=88 29, 2022] Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,=
 the Swiss army knife of text editors" wrote:

>> But maybe me using hard newlines to tame adaptive-fill-mode is the wrong
>> approach: I would like to write lists such as
>>
>>     . blah blah blah
>>     . blah blah blah
>
> I'm not sure "." should be accepted by default, but...

Indeed, it's a bit too "out there" if you know what I mean.

>> I can't blame adaptive-fill-mode for it: it can only be ever so smart
>> and hard newlines seemed like the solution for "when I say newline, I
>> MEAN IT".
>
> I do think it's worth a bug report, because we should handle at least
> some "common" cases of itemized lists in ELisp comments, and AFAIK we
> currently don't handle any at all.

When I was searching for discussions on adaptive-fill-mode in
emacs-devel to make sense of it, I found the past you agreeing with me
in the wild.  The discussion can be found here: https://yhetil.org/emacs-de=
vel/jwvk5wvx5jv.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN/
but I'm not sure what happened afterwards.  Hmm... but now that I
re-read it, it is not the same problem but it is a problem that
often bites me in the back.

Message received at control <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2022 13:57:54 +0000
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Subject: control message for bug #56796
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severity 56796 wishlist
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Last modified: Thu, 4 Aug 2022 14:00:02 UTC

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