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Subject: bug#57878: Emacs native compilation on startup can crash the system
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After updating to a commit after the introduction of native compilation
in Emacs, I cannot start Emacs any more. It launches an ever increasing
number of async processes for native compilation, which rapidly makes
kswapd the main CPU user on my machine, and ultimately crashes the
kernel.

Some experiments showed that it's loading the site-lisp/site-start.el  that
causes this avalanche of processes:

  emacs -Q --batch --eval="(print load-path)"

works fine. As does:

  emacs -Q --batch --load=~/.guix-profile/share/emacs/site-lisp/guix-emacs.el --eval="(print load-path)"

But not:

  emacs -Q --batch --load=~/.guix-profile/share/emacs/site-lisp/site-start.el --eval="(print load-path)"

which starts the avalanche of compilation.

Possibly related: in my user-dir (~/.emacs.d/) I have a directory
"eln-cache" containing a directory "28.1-f1a30909", but that directory
remains empty. Perhaps all native compilation attempts fail and that's
what causes the problem. Just guessing!

Cheers,
  Konrad.

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To: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#57878: Acknowledgement (Emacs native compilation on startup
 can crash the system)
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Subject: bug#57878: Minimal reproducible setup
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Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2022 12:28:45 +0200
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My understanding of site-start.el is that it actually loads all the
Emacs packages that are listed in my Guix profile. Which means that my
package list matters. Here is a minimal containerized example that
creates a process avalanche:

    guix shell -C emacs emacs-ido-completing-read+ \
       -- emacs --batch --eval="(print load-path)"

ido-completing-read+ is a rather small Emacs package, and I don't see
anything obvious in it that could cause trouble with native compilation.
But more importantly, I think no package should be able to cause the
behavior that I observe.

Cheers
  Konrad.

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Subject: bug#57878: Minimal reproducible setup
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Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> writes:

> Here is a minimal containerized example that
> creates a process avalanche:
>
>     guix shell -C emacs emacs-ido-completing-read+ \
>        -- emacs --batch --eval="(print load-path)"

I went through all my emacs packages. The only one that starts
the process avalanche is emacs-ido-completing-read+.

Cheers
  Konrad.

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Am Samstag, dem 17.09.2022 um 17:45 +0200 schrieb Konrad Hinsen:
> Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > Here is a minimal containerized example that
> > creates a process avalanche:
> > 
> >     guix shell -C emacs emacs-ido-completing-read+ \
> >        -- emacs --batch --eval="(print load-path)"
> 
> I went through all my emacs packages. The only one that starts
> the process avalanche is emacs-ido-completing-read+.
I think you can prevent native-compilation entirely by setting no-
native-compile to t in your early-init.el (I'm playing with the idea of
doing this anyway, because I'm annoyed by the clutter that falls
through the cracks).  That being said, this looks like a real breakage
in the emacs-ido-completing-read package, does it not?  Should we add
"no-native-compile" to some local variables?

WDYT?

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Am Sonntag, dem 18.09.2022 um 01:19 +0200 schrieb Liliana Marie
Prikler:
> I think you can prevent native-compilation entirely by setting no-
> native-compile to t in your early-init.el (I'm playing with the idea
> of doing this anyway, because I'm annoyed by the clutter that falls
> through the cracks).
Okay, it turns out that disabling native compilation is not so simple
after all.  Other ideas are welcome.

Cheers

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Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> writes:

>> I think you can prevent native-compilation entirely by setting no-
>> native-compile to t in your early-init.el (I'm playing with the idea
>> of doing this anyway, because I'm annoyed by the clutter that falls
>> through the cracks).
>
> Okay, it turns out that disabling native compilation is not so simple
> after all.  Other ideas are welcome.

That's what I discovered as well. What you can do is set
native-comp-speed to -1, reducing native compilation to byte code
compilation. But that doesn't deactivate the machinery.

Cheers,
  Konrad.

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I did one more test: run native-compile by hand on each elisp file in
the package ido-completing-read+. Works fine.

The next question that I consider relevant: is this an upstream (Emacs)
issue, or an issue created by packaging in Guix? That's not easy to
answer.

A related question: what are appropriate debugging techniques?

Cheers,
  Konrad.

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Hello Konrad and Liliana,

On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 5:16 AM Konrad Hinsen
<konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> I did one more test: run native-compile by hand on each elisp file in
> the package ido-completing-read+. Works fine.
>
> The next question that I consider relevant: is this an upstream (Emacs)
> issue, or an issue created by packaging in Guix? That's not easy to
> answer.

I just got bit by this and lost a bunch of time trying to get my
system stable again.  I am leaning towards this being an upstream
issue as it is also affecting Debian users [0].  Unfortunately, they
do not seem to have found a solution.  I haven't checked the Emacs bug
tracker/mailing lists so I don't know if upstream is working on or has
a fix for this.  I will be sticking to a pre-commit
dbcba75c0e96d8eb2b0bf9dbb3a49d15b38f80d2 version of Guix for the time
being.  There may be many more people affected that have not reported
in.  Is disabling native compilation an option on the table?

- Dave

[0] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1017817

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Am Samstag, dem 01.10.2022 um 20:15 -0400 schrieb Thompson, David:
> Is disabling native compilation an option on the table?
I don't want to disable native compilation for everyone, but I'd very
much disable deferred compilation and replace it with Guix packages.=20
In other words, as long as your change doesn't break the current "guix
build --with-input=3Demacs-minimal=3Demacs" flow, I'm leaning towards
accepting a patch.

As for disabling native compilation, using=C2=A0
  (setq native-comp-deferred-compilation nil)
removes most, but sadly not all compilation from personal experience.=20
I do wonder what causes the remaining ones to still pop up.=20

Cheers

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Hi David and Liliana,

Thanks David for the added observations. This does indeed look like an
upstream bug, but it also seems to have a context dependence because the
Debian bug reports list some packages are affected that cause no problem
under Guix (e.g. git-timemachine).

As for Liliana's idea of disabling deferred compilation : shouldn't it
be sufficient to have all Emacs Lisp packages in Guix AOT-compiled?
There would be nothing left to compile in deferred mode. A quick scan of
the relevant page on Emacs Wiki
(https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GccEmacs) suggests that some package
manager do this.

Cheers,
  Konrad.

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Hi,

On Sat, 01 Oct 2022 at 20:15, "Thompson, David" <dthompson2@HIDDEN> wrote:

>                       I am leaning towards this being an upstream
> issue as it is also affecting Debian users [0].  Unfortunately, they
> do not seem to have found a solution.  I haven't checked the Emacs bug
> tracker/mailing lists so I don't know if upstream is working on or has
> a fix for this.

> [0] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1017817

Heavy discussions are currently happening upstream; see this loooong
thread [1].  From my understanding, no fix yet.

1: <https://yhetil.org/emacs-devel/87bkqxf1ij.fsf@HIDDEN/#r>


Cheers.
simon

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Am Sonntag, dem 02.10.2022 um 10:25 +0200 schrieb Konrad Hinsen:
> As for Liliana's idea of disabling deferred compilation : shouldn't
> it be sufficient to have all Emacs Lisp packages in Guix AOT-
> compiled?
From personal experience, no.  Even if you compile code ahead of time,
there seem to be some leftovers that are deferred.  guix-emacs.el is an
oversight, but apart from that I also other leftovers (possibly from
init.el?)

> There would be nothing left to compile in deferred mode. A quick scan
> of the relevant page on Emacs Wiki
> (https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GccEmacs) suggests that some package
> manager do this.
In Guix, this is more or less a user choice =E2=80=93 we advertised the
transformation by which you can opt-in to AOT compilation in a news
entry.  Also, enforcing ahead-of-time compilation does not fix the more
pressing issue of packages breaking with native compilation ;)

To quote Eli:
> More generally, we never expected people who have Emacs with native
> compilation available to want to disable it.  It made no sense to us
> during development of Emacs 28, and frankly, it still doesn't, at
> least to me.
I think this reasoning really falls flat in presence of any non-Emacs
package manager.  Like, obviously wanting to natively compile packages
managed by (dpkg, rpm, pacman, emerge, guix), but not natively
compiling a random elisp script you just downloaded from the web is a
legitimate use case.

Cheers

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Liliana Marie Prikler <liliana.prikler@HIDDEN> writes:
> From personal experience, no.  Even if you compile code ahead of time,
> there seem to be some leftovers that are deferred.  guix-emacs.el is an
> oversight, but apart from that I also other leftovers (possibly from
> init.el?)

AFAIU, the compiler is invoked any time a function is redefined or
advised, see (info "(elisp) Advising Functions"). In Emacs it is a very
common paractice to put advices around a function to modify its
behaviour. Since this happens during runtime (for example, in response
to a hook, or after you manually run some command), you should accept
the fact that native compiler may be invoked at any time as you use
Emacs.

> In Guix, this is more or less a user choice =E2=80=93 we advertised the
> transformation by which you can opt-in to AOT compilation in a news
> entry.  Also, enforcing ahead-of-time compilation does not fix the more
> pressing issue of packages breaking with native compilation ;)

How pressing is this issue? There are literally no reports of packages
breaking due to native compilation. So this is probably the reason why
Eli considers it as a non-issue.

> To quote Eli:
>> More generally, we never expected people who have Emacs with native
>> compilation available to want to disable it.  It made no sense to us
>> during development of Emacs 28, and frankly, it still doesn't, at
>> least to me.
> I think this reasoning really falls flat in presence of any non-Emacs
> package manager.  Like, obviously wanting to natively compile packages
> managed by (dpkg, rpm, pacman, emerge, guix), but not natively
> compiling a random elisp script you just downloaded from the web is a
> legitimate use case.

If security is a concern, you should not load random Elisp in the first
place. It is much easier to just directly run harmful elisp, then to
exploit native compiler, which stays silent until after you evaluate
some (possibly harmful) elisp.

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From: Max Brieiev <max.brieiev@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <86r0zeoew6.fsf@HIDDEN> (zimoun's message of "Tue, 11 Oct 2022
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References: <m1o7ve2t2a.fsf@HIDDEN> <m1o7vexawf.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:06:55 +0300
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I am new to Guix.

My issue is related to the native compilation too, however it manifests
itself differently.

The build of emacs-next goes well.

However, when I start Emacs it throws lots of errors, most of which are
like this:

    Deleting /tmp/comp-lambda-RCGJQI.eln
    comp--native-compile: Native compiler error: (lambda (&rest arg1) (let =
((f #'make-process)) (apply f arg1))), "Compiling /tmp/comp-lambda-RCGJQI.e=
ln...
    x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu-gcc-10.3.0: fatal error: cannot execute =E2=80=
=98as=E2=80=99: execvp: No such file or directory
    compilation terminated.

So while it builds successfully I can't really run it.

What confuses me is that everyone else in this thread has a differnt
issue. For some, if I understand it correctly, the problem is that the
compiler runs to aggressively and makes Emacs unusable. Is it right?

But in my case the native compiler just plainly fails to execute,
because assembler program is not found.

Why isn't it deterministic, meaning that going through the same build
process, the resulting build of my Emacs is different from the others,
reporting related, but different issues?

And this is what makes me think that the problem is actually in
packaging.

This sounds like the problem with dependencies, libgccjit in particular,
doesn't it?

Message received at control <at> debbugs.gnu.org:

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severity 57878 important
quit

Last modified: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 15:00:02 UTC

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