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Subject: bug#58502: We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep
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After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the test
framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep,
I=E2=80=99m going to say it:

We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep

egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use
well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, and
are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep.

Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported for
the foreseeable future:

=E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supported for ma=
ny
years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical
applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D

See https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep.html

Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with grep -E=
:

https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d39802443a3=
4c2b70

There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless
machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break
widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two
one-line shell scripts.

-- Sam

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Subject: bug#58502: Acknowledgement (We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep)
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Subject: bug#58502: We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep
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> On 13 Oct 2022, at 18:46, Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote:
>=20
> After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the test
> framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep,
> I=E2=80=99m going to say it:
>=20
> We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep
>=20
> egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use
> well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, and
> are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep.
>=20
> Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported for
> the foreseeable future:
>=20
> =E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supported =
for many
> years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical
> applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> See =
https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep.html
>=20
> Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with =
grep -E:
>=20
> =
https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d39802443a=
34c2b70
>=20
> There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless
> machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break
> widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two
> one-line shell scripts.

Yep, I really do agree -- and Iv'e already provided examples of things
which did break in the wild. Just make it a GNU extension and call it a =
day.

While I sympathise with the maintainers' perspective, it's pretty
clear that in reality, nobody actually realised it was "obsolescent"
and in fact actively using it in new scripts.

Really, speaking from my perspective, distribution maintainers have
got enough going on with various fires (Clang 16, OpenSSL 3,
time64 migration, ...) that handling various trivial-but-numerous
grep bugs on top is not very helpful :(

Best,
sam

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Message sent to bug-grep@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#58502: We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep
Resent-From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@HIDDEN>
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hi all,

On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:52:51 +0100
Sam James <sam@HIDDEN> wrote:

> > On 13 Oct 2022, at 18:46, Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote:
> >=20
> > After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the test
> > framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep,
> > I=E2=80=99m going to say it:
> >=20
> > We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep
> >=20
> > egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use
> > well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, and
> > are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep.
> >=20
> > Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported for
> > the foreseeable future:
> >=20
> > =E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supported fo=
r many
> > years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical
> > applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D
> >=20
> > See https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep.html
> >=20
> > Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with gre=
p -E:
> >=20
> > https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d398024=
43a34c2b70
> >=20
> > There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless
> > machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break
> > widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two
> > one-line shell scripts. =20
>=20
> Yep, I really do agree -- and Iv'e already provided examples of things
> which did break in the wild. Just make it a GNU extension and call it a d=
ay.
>=20
> While I sympathise with the maintainers' perspective, it's pretty
> clear that in reality, nobody actually realised it was "obsolescent"
> and in fact actively using it in new scripts.
>=20
> Really, speaking from my perspective, distribution maintainers have
> got enough going on with various fires (Clang 16, OpenSSL 3,
> time64 migration, ...) that handling various trivial-but-numerous
> grep bugs on top is not very helpful :(
>=20

+1. hope i'm not "alayhum"ing / "lynch"ing here, but I agree that breaking
backcompat for vanity is bad.

> Best,
> sam



--=20

Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
Perl Elems to Avoid - https://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/

Chuck Norris knows who John Galt is.
    =E2=80=94 https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/reply .

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From: Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:29:21 -0700
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>vanity

Presumably, "vanity" here is the older definition which more
accurately renders as "frivolous" in modern English, as in not
important or meaningless.

I think the point the GNU grep maintainers are making is that egrep
and fgrep, much to my surprise, aren't actually part of POSIX.
Personally, I think that's a bug in POSIX, and hopefully a future
POSIX spec will mandate some implementation of egrep and fgrep, even
if it's a `exec grep -E "$@"` implementation. Even with Busybox, which
does the equivalent transformation in C code, it's about 10 lines of
code, e.g. "if ((ENABLE_EGREP && applet_name[0] =3D=3D 'e')" in the same
"if" which checks for the "-E" flag.

I would, as suggested earlier, just make it a non-POSIX GNU extension,
even though POSIX itself points out that egrep and fgrep are around to
not break old scripts. grep -P, with PCRE support, isn't POSIX either,
so there's precedent to extend GNU grep beyond what POSIX mandates.

-- Sam

On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:00 PM Shlomi Fish <shlomif@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> hi all,
>
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:52:51 +0100
> Sam James <sam@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> > > On 13 Oct 2022, at 18:46, Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > >
> > > After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the test
> > > framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep,
> > > I=E2=80=99m going to say it:
> > >
> > > We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep
> > >
> > > egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use
> > > well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, and
> > > are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep.
> > >
> > > Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported fo=
r
> > > the foreseeable future:
> > >
> > > =E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supported =
for many
> > > years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical
> > > applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D
> > >
> > > See https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep.h=
tml
> > >
> > > Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with g=
rep -E:
> > >
> > > https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d3980=
2443a34c2b70
> > >
> > > There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless
> > > machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break
> > > widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two
> > > one-line shell scripts.
> >
> > Yep, I really do agree -- and Iv'e already provided examples of things
> > which did break in the wild. Just make it a GNU extension and call it a=
 day.
> >
> > While I sympathise with the maintainers' perspective, it's pretty
> > clear that in reality, nobody actually realised it was "obsolescent"
> > and in fact actively using it in new scripts.
> >
> > Really, speaking from my perspective, distribution maintainers have
> > got enough going on with various fires (Clang 16, OpenSSL 3,
> > time64 migration, ...) that handling various trivial-but-numerous
> > grep bugs on top is not very helpful :(
> >
>
> +1. hope i'm not "alayhum"ing / "lynch"ing here, but I agree that breakin=
g
> backcompat for vanity is bad.
>
> > Best,
> > sam
>
>
>
> --
>
> Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
> Perl Elems to Avoid - https://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/
>
> Chuck Norris knows who John Galt is.
>     =E2=80=94 https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/
>
> Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/reply=
 .

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hi,

[resending in public this time]

On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:29:21 -0700
Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote:

> >vanity =20
>=20
> Presumably, "vanity" here is the older definition which more
> accurately renders as "frivolous" in modern English, as in not
> important or meaningless.
>=20

yes, that's what I meant. also see 'davka' in hebrew:
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/12/06/news-45/

> I think the point the GNU grep maintainers are making is that egrep
> and fgrep, much to my surprise, aren't actually part of POSIX.
> Personally, I think that's a bug in POSIX, and hopefully a future
> POSIX spec will mandate some implementation of egrep and fgrep, even
> if it's a `exec grep -E "$@"` implementation. Even with Busybox, which

I, OTOH, grew to appreciate POSIX's minimalism:
https://twitter.com/shlomif/status/1542047869989011457 .

> does the equivalent transformation in C code, it's about 10 lines of
> code, e.g. "if ((ENABLE_EGREP && applet_name[0] =3D=3D 'e')" in the same
> "if" which checks for the "-E" flag.
>=20
> I would, as suggested earlier, just make it a non-POSIX GNU extension,
> even though POSIX itself points out that egrep and fgrep are around to
> not break old scripts. grep -P, with PCRE support, isn't POSIX either,
> so there's precedent to extend GNU grep beyond what POSIX mandates.
>=20
> -- Sam
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:00 PM Shlomi Fish <shlomif@HIDDEN> wrot=
e:
> >
> > hi all,
> >
> > On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:52:51 +0100
> > Sam James <sam@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > =20
> > > > On 13 Oct 2022, at 18:46, Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the te=
st
> > > > framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep,
> > > > I=E2=80=99m going to say it:
> > > >
> > > > We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep
> > > >
> > > > egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use
> > > > well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, a=
nd
> > > > are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep.
> > > >
> > > > Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported =
for
> > > > the foreseeable future:
> > > >
> > > > =E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supporte=
d for many
> > > > years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical
> > > > applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D
> > > >
> > > > See https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep=
.html
> > > >
> > > > Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with
> > > > grep -E:
> > > >
> > > > https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d39=
802443a34c2b70
> > > >
> > > > There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless
> > > > machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break
> > > > widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two
> > > > one-line shell scripts. =20
> > >
> > > Yep, I really do agree -- and Iv'e already provided examples of things
> > > which did break in the wild. Just make it a GNU extension and call it=
 a
> > > day.
> > >
> > > While I sympathise with the maintainers' perspective, it's pretty
> > > clear that in reality, nobody actually realised it was "obsolescent"
> > > and in fact actively using it in new scripts.
> > >
> > > Really, speaking from my perspective, distribution maintainers have
> > > got enough going on with various fires (Clang 16, OpenSSL 3,
> > > time64 migration, ...) that handling various trivial-but-numerous
> > > grep bugs on top is not very helpful :(
> > > =20
> >
> > +1. hope i'm not "alayhum"ing / "lynch"ing here, but I agree that break=
ing
> > backcompat for vanity is bad.
> > =20
> > > Best,
> > > sam =20
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
> > Perl Elems to Avoid - https://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/
> >
> > Chuck Norris knows who John Galt is.
> >     =E2=80=94 https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/
> >
> > Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/rep=
ly .
> > =20



--=20

Shlomi Fish       https://www.shlomifish.org/
My Photos - https://www.flickr.com/photos/shlomif/

I have a brilliant idea: a distributed, NoSQL, Webscale=E2=84=A2 /dev/null =
alternative.
I=E2=80=99m going to patent it. (Inspired by arubin on ##programming.)

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/reply .

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merge 58502 60257 66582

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Subject: another merge for egrep/fgrep
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merge 58502 57604

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