Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Received: (at 58502) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 09:20:32 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 05:20:32 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35764 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ojGro-00026B-0M for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 05:20:32 -0400 Received: from omta035.useast.a.cloudfilter.net ([44.202.169.34]:48370) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <shlomif@HIDDEN>) id 1ojGrl-00025j-E1 for 58502 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 05:20:30 -0400 Received: from eig-obgw-5001a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.0.29.139]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id jBrkoNtT3VgqJjGrgoETYu; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:20:24 +0000 Received: from gator4065.hostgator.com ([192.185.4.76]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id jGreocm8nTmZ3jGreotNPU; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:20:22 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=b8ihX/Kx c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=634929d6 a=WrGT6/zrvVTrfGJa+X25lQ==:117 a=oM3lmzs29DfBJRDgmz9Rww==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=Qawa6l4ZSaYA:10 a=BWrux-P7eZ8A:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=8_GrFjI7AAAA:8 a=JqEG_dyiAAAA:8 a=uswv5WdKAAAA:8 a=7mOBRU54AAAA:8 a=uZvujYp8AAAA:8 a=NEAV23lmAAAA:8 a=PEjz0jMyAAAA:8 a=OsIeh8kIAAAA:8 a=JAralIE_AAAA:8 a=sFuZgP916_UMreoyuvQA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=ynVStJ23aJwA:10 a=Z0l-IZ0oLYkA:10 a=ynZT977CPYYA:10 a=-FEs8UIgK8oA:10 a=x3Jj3AvRZZbxKQKHG3Tn:22 a=jwDdIuxgE-wiLByRady0:22 a=wa9RWnbW_A1YIeRBVszw:22 a=SLzB8X_8jTLwj6mN0q5r:22 a=IH1lMhEc54-fI6sJU_6Z:22 a=S4HRCAXHI7CB-bod-FGv:22 Received: from 87.68.241.193.adsl.012.net.il ([87.68.241.193]:38530 helo=telaviv1.shlomifish.org) by gator4065.hostgator.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from <shlomif@HIDDEN>) id 1ojGrd-000ms3-Mv; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 04:20:21 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by telaviv1.shlomifish.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF68180239; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 09:20:15 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 12:20:15 +0300 From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@HIDDEN> To: Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN>, 58502 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#58502: We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep Message-ID: <20221014122015.4faad85a@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAJxgfkR9Ws+e4i69bFm6V4DMpeCcXeiVvbz+AkgkTUBq648yzg@HIDDEN> References: <CAJxgfkSE6n2WmRee2RwyvW=4L2oTBX6TBVi9EvY2+VsW=RM3Zw@HIDDEN> <4DA0ECF5-F50B-4F82-A9B7-ABED2536D495@HIDDEN> <20221014010033.214036cf@HIDDEN> <CAJxgfkR9Ws+e4i69bFm6V4DMpeCcXeiVvbz+AkgkTUBq648yzg@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.0 (GTK 3.24.34; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gator4065.hostgator.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - debbugs.gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - shlomifish.org X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 87.68.241.193 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1ojGrd-000ms3-Mv X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: 87.68.241.193.adsl.012.net.il (telaviv1.shlomifish.org) [87.68.241.193]:38530 X-Source-Auth: shlomif@HIDDEN X-Email-Count: 2 X-Org: HG=hgshared;ORG=hostgator; X-Source-Cap: c2hsb21pZjtzaGxvbWlmO2dhdG9yNDA2NS5ob3N0Z2F0b3IuY29t X-Local-Domain: yes X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfCKWBQN0YD3aEyNKjhzpmoXYYGXNxGzZ6oeQ63jZwtY1OAvX82yq8NALQvXxXN67+QkN8V479aHBqoSBfwQCKQEvLn73ffxvWNmgdIHuv5fwXSZkt38j 0sji572H2G8KOfhcCL++dblQcquSB1I7hnlnl9jva8oMoyJgglxFCJK8sEyOTKF1wXzZ6Y8U4sNpu41BHzbUo0pGHlKjVxXZG/s= X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58502 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) hi, [resending in public this time] On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:29:21 -0700 Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote: > >vanity =20 >=20 > Presumably, "vanity" here is the older definition which more > accurately renders as "frivolous" in modern English, as in not > important or meaningless. >=20 yes, that's what I meant. also see 'davka' in hebrew: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2004/12/06/news-45/ > I think the point the GNU grep maintainers are making is that egrep > and fgrep, much to my surprise, aren't actually part of POSIX. > Personally, I think that's a bug in POSIX, and hopefully a future > POSIX spec will mandate some implementation of egrep and fgrep, even > if it's a `exec grep -E "$@"` implementation. Even with Busybox, which I, OTOH, grew to appreciate POSIX's minimalism: https://twitter.com/shlomif/status/1542047869989011457 . > does the equivalent transformation in C code, it's about 10 lines of > code, e.g. "if ((ENABLE_EGREP && applet_name[0] =3D=3D 'e')" in the same > "if" which checks for the "-E" flag. >=20 > I would, as suggested earlier, just make it a non-POSIX GNU extension, > even though POSIX itself points out that egrep and fgrep are around to > not break old scripts. grep -P, with PCRE support, isn't POSIX either, > so there's precedent to extend GNU grep beyond what POSIX mandates. >=20 > -- Sam >=20 > On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:00 PM Shlomi Fish <shlomif@HIDDEN> wrot= e: > > > > hi all, > > > > On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:52:51 +0100 > > Sam James <sam@HIDDEN> wrote: > > =20 > > > > On 13 Oct 2022, at 18:46, Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > > > > > > After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the te= st > > > > framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep, > > > > I=E2=80=99m going to say it: > > > > > > > > We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep > > > > > > > > egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use > > > > well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, a= nd > > > > are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep. > > > > > > > > Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported = for > > > > the foreseeable future: > > > > > > > > =E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supporte= d for many > > > > years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical > > > > applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > > > See https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep= .html > > > > > > > > Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with > > > > grep -E: > > > > > > > > https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d39= 802443a34c2b70 > > > > > > > > There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless > > > > machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break > > > > widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two > > > > one-line shell scripts. =20 > > > > > > Yep, I really do agree -- and Iv'e already provided examples of things > > > which did break in the wild. Just make it a GNU extension and call it= a > > > day. > > > > > > While I sympathise with the maintainers' perspective, it's pretty > > > clear that in reality, nobody actually realised it was "obsolescent" > > > and in fact actively using it in new scripts. > > > > > > Really, speaking from my perspective, distribution maintainers have > > > got enough going on with various fires (Clang 16, OpenSSL 3, > > > time64 migration, ...) that handling various trivial-but-numerous > > > grep bugs on top is not very helpful :( > > > =20 > > > > +1. hope i'm not "alayhum"ing / "lynch"ing here, but I agree that break= ing > > backcompat for vanity is bad. > > =20 > > > Best, > > > sam =20 > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Shlomi Fish https://www.shlomifish.org/ > > Perl Elems to Avoid - https://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/ > > > > Chuck Norris knows who John Galt is. > > =E2=80=94 https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/ > > > > Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/rep= ly . > > =20 --=20 Shlomi Fish https://www.shlomifish.org/ My Photos - https://www.flickr.com/photos/shlomif/ I have a brilliant idea: a distributed, NoSQL, Webscale=E2=84=A2 /dev/null = alternative. I=E2=80=99m going to patent it. (Inspired by arubin on ##programming.) Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/reply .
bug-grep@HIDDEN:bug#58502; Package grep.
Full text available.Received: (at 58502) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Oct 2022 05:25:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Oct 14 01:25:30 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35505 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ojDCJ-0003Tf-Bk for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 14 Oct 2022 01:25:29 -0400 Received: from mail-vs1-f42.google.com ([209.85.217.42]:39572) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <maradns@HIDDEN>) id 1oj7dy-0001Sr-Ab for 58502 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 19:29:41 -0400 Received: by mail-vs1-f42.google.com with SMTP id d187so3363601vsd.6 for <58502 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:29:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=0aD7cXMf/oOPTOWNhV+5Ub8I0DHeySh/H5SYkxBFECg=; b=Qn5S1Ao+U6HdeUxh0UYWGmbDwtuTQgIrZM3ajNtTD0npzivf7ouMSKlRj1vjcJWYZu 97mUVwhYHXeK7HNfTc6kOZFYfpzmSuvlbGVOmi+I+WyWXWuO0ur+rRPSi/K3h1VDhonr aj/OKAse+J9M8DWcLpOPYCDDy4l1Uip/fMDr2TvDjjRNqKYtta/eixvQXJjnC7JJ+sl4 VILSuK/yhn/bQtd3BNZxwz405pKTSzEhTbw+1VOG2eRbY9oyLaI4q5YwfXWAmoNsMwCT gVdRnjgRiT/PcjGGSp7k2VR/L8A/DFum68DMss0rH5/cuZ1CqE+8On66XjkvW1EyvXss TOfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0aD7cXMf/oOPTOWNhV+5Ub8I0DHeySh/H5SYkxBFECg=; b=jVG4uIADlkjGVvoCvW6oSP6mt3hrsF1P4ZGqnPsFTab4sFQzBoEAVwui/NN7oMSPG0 xFfyKOD74qdmLa1+AkHkpIdyeJjcoGU32SX9AuNYjxqJvZsQ2+/K/wpxxxOziRfonZhS ct9eJOBicpsZXOqIFws6R0Zn3dg6JqHffZRYyh7fyhxxxOnJVn/hWPVq1uMyZKPMakU9 KD/p3dXqGouJip0vQzMwyu7SWhn86WUXaBPPYccuCYXm01yIgT37RZjAA4ThDgPgoDM7 wRbUDpOmYfNuy4c1S7Ez9BxW/ZGP6lhJKWirbPUBUqcjGt2QZzo9+DUx9XAkskShAmWH qL3g== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2Oxhc01WPpDKS1U41fmjb2g+mSpaiVIavKXKrUbZcaPr4TfruM PT3UVYxzn/lb/LEAJ0wbkI7qdcybxCUYjem9U/o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6b2Se+iCrmjaShR3svc3DwANkLIOXSqfhG70EnHcCIE+tE9zXM9/H5tl4Zedc5tmgDjbAX8LN6daYTqHA/CMM= X-Received: by 2002:a67:c891:0:b0:3a6:3a2e:6a52 with SMTP id v17-20020a67c891000000b003a63a2e6a52mr1513234vsk.49.1665703772662; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:29:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <CAJxgfkSE6n2WmRee2RwyvW=4L2oTBX6TBVi9EvY2+VsW=RM3Zw@HIDDEN> <4DA0ECF5-F50B-4F82-A9B7-ABED2536D495@HIDDEN> <20221014010033.214036cf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <20221014010033.214036cf@HIDDEN> From: Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 16:29:21 -0700 Message-ID: <CAJxgfkR9Ws+e4i69bFm6V4DMpeCcXeiVvbz+AkgkTUBq648yzg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#58502: We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep To: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58502 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 14 Oct 2022 01:25:26 -0400 Cc: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>, Sam James <sam@HIDDEN>, 58502 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) >vanity Presumably, "vanity" here is the older definition which more accurately renders as "frivolous" in modern English, as in not important or meaningless. I think the point the GNU grep maintainers are making is that egrep and fgrep, much to my surprise, aren't actually part of POSIX. Personally, I think that's a bug in POSIX, and hopefully a future POSIX spec will mandate some implementation of egrep and fgrep, even if it's a `exec grep -E "$@"` implementation. Even with Busybox, which does the equivalent transformation in C code, it's about 10 lines of code, e.g. "if ((ENABLE_EGREP && applet_name[0] =3D=3D 'e')" in the same "if" which checks for the "-E" flag. I would, as suggested earlier, just make it a non-POSIX GNU extension, even though POSIX itself points out that egrep and fgrep are around to not break old scripts. grep -P, with PCRE support, isn't POSIX either, so there's precedent to extend GNU grep beyond what POSIX mandates. -- Sam On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:00 PM Shlomi Fish <shlomif@HIDDEN> wrote: > > hi all, > > On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:52:51 +0100 > Sam James <sam@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > > On 13 Oct 2022, at 18:46, Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote: > > > > > > After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the test > > > framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep, > > > I=E2=80=99m going to say it: > > > > > > We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep > > > > > > egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use > > > well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, and > > > are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep. > > > > > > Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported fo= r > > > the foreseeable future: > > > > > > =E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supported = for many > > > years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical > > > applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > See https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep.h= tml > > > > > > Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with g= rep -E: > > > > > > https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d3980= 2443a34c2b70 > > > > > > There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless > > > machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break > > > widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two > > > one-line shell scripts. > > > > Yep, I really do agree -- and Iv'e already provided examples of things > > which did break in the wild. Just make it a GNU extension and call it a= day. > > > > While I sympathise with the maintainers' perspective, it's pretty > > clear that in reality, nobody actually realised it was "obsolescent" > > and in fact actively using it in new scripts. > > > > Really, speaking from my perspective, distribution maintainers have > > got enough going on with various fires (Clang 16, OpenSSL 3, > > time64 migration, ...) that handling various trivial-but-numerous > > grep bugs on top is not very helpful :( > > > > +1. hope i'm not "alayhum"ing / "lynch"ing here, but I agree that breakin= g > backcompat for vanity is bad. > > > Best, > > sam > > > > -- > > Shlomi Fish https://www.shlomifish.org/ > Perl Elems to Avoid - https://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/ > > Chuck Norris knows who John Galt is. > =E2=80=94 https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/ > > Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/reply= .
bug-grep@HIDDEN:bug#58502; Package grep.
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From: Shlomi Fish <shlomif@HIDDEN>
To: Sam James <sam@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#58502: We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep
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hi all,
On Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:52:51 +0100
Sam James <sam@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > On 13 Oct 2022, at 18:46, Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote:
> >=20
> > After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the test
> > framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep,
> > I=E2=80=99m going to say it:
> >=20
> > We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep
> >=20
> > egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use
> > well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, and
> > are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep.
> >=20
> > Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported for
> > the foreseeable future:
> >=20
> > =E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supported fo=
r many
> > years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical
> > applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D
> >=20
> > See https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep.html
> >=20
> > Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with gre=
p -E:
> >=20
> > https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d398024=
43a34c2b70
> >=20
> > There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless
> > machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break
> > widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two
> > one-line shell scripts. =20
>=20
> Yep, I really do agree -- and Iv'e already provided examples of things
> which did break in the wild. Just make it a GNU extension and call it a d=
ay.
>=20
> While I sympathise with the maintainers' perspective, it's pretty
> clear that in reality, nobody actually realised it was "obsolescent"
> and in fact actively using it in new scripts.
>=20
> Really, speaking from my perspective, distribution maintainers have
> got enough going on with various fires (Clang 16, OpenSSL 3,
> time64 migration, ...) that handling various trivial-but-numerous
> grep bugs on top is not very helpful :(
>=20
+1. hope i'm not "alayhum"ing / "lynch"ing here, but I agree that breaking
backcompat for vanity is bad.
> Best,
> sam
--=20
Shlomi Fish https://www.shlomifish.org/
Perl Elems to Avoid - https://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/
Chuck Norris knows who John Galt is.
=E2=80=94 https://www.shlomifish.org/humour/bits/facts/Chuck-Norris/
Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - https://shlom.in/reply .
bug-grep@HIDDEN:bug#58502; Package grep.
Full text available.Received: (at 58502) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Oct 2022 17:53:09 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Oct 13 13:53:09 2022 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34898 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1oj2OI-0000WP-81 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:53:09 -0400 Received: from woodpecker.gentoo.org ([140.211.166.183]:57716 helo=smtp.gentoo.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <sam@HIDDEN>) id 1oj2OE-0000Vo-Ck for 58502 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:53:05 -0400 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_47CD768A-25F4-4055-883E-77CB1158E230"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3696.120.41.1.1\)) Subject: Re: bug#58502: We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep From: Sam James <sam@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAJxgfkSE6n2WmRee2RwyvW=4L2oTBX6TBVi9EvY2+VsW=RM3Zw@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 18:52:51 +0100 Message-Id: <4DA0ECF5-F50B-4F82-A9B7-ABED2536D495@HIDDEN> References: <CAJxgfkSE6n2WmRee2RwyvW=4L2oTBX6TBVi9EvY2+VsW=RM3Zw@HIDDEN> To: Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3696.120.41.1.1) X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 58502 Cc: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>, 58502 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) --Apple-Mail=_47CD768A-25F4-4055-883E-77CB1158E230 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 13 Oct 2022, at 18:46, Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN> wrote: >=20 > After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the test > framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep, > I=E2=80=99m going to say it: >=20 > We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep >=20 > egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use > well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, and > are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep. >=20 > Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported for > the foreseeable future: >=20 > =E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supported = for many > years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical > applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D >=20 > See = https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep.html >=20 > Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with = grep -E: >=20 > = https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d39802443a= 34c2b70 >=20 > There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless > machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break > widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two > one-line shell scripts. Yep, I really do agree -- and Iv'e already provided examples of things which did break in the wild. Just make it a GNU extension and call it a = day. While I sympathise with the maintainers' perspective, it's pretty clear that in reality, nobody actually realised it was "obsolescent" and in fact actively using it in new scripts. Really, speaking from my perspective, distribution maintainers have got enough going on with various fires (Clang 16, OpenSSL 3, time64 migration, ...) that handling various trivial-but-numerous grep bugs on top is not very helpful :( Best, sam --Apple-Mail=_47CD768A-25F4-4055-883E-77CB1158E230 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iNUEARYKAH0WIQQlpruI3Zt2TGtVQcJzhAn1IN+RkAUCY0hQdF8UgAAAAAAuAChp c3N1ZXItZnByQG5vdGF0aW9ucy5vcGVucGdwLmZpZnRoaG9yc2VtYW4ubmV0MjVB NkJCODhERDlCNzY0QzZCNTU0MUMyNzM4NDA5RjUyMERGOTE5MAAKCRBzhAn1IN+R kO/cAQDbtaw+kvhwxra2lp0+VIsHWhEwhZSuJ0MK4ycm2CWckAD/Ut535h+3Kk3C ObMUmjieqKO1y860YbPpxfjYIYT6Kw8= =VuPT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_47CD768A-25F4-4055-883E-77CB1158E230--
bug-grep@HIDDEN:bug#58502; Package grep.
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::e31; envelope-from=maradns@HIDDEN; helo=mail-vs1-xe31.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 13 Oct 2022 13:47:06 -0400 Cc: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) After spending nearly an hour updating all of the scripts in the test framework for one of my open source projects to no longer use egrep, I=E2=80=99m going to say it: We should not deprecate egrep and fgrep egrep and fgrep have been around since the 1970s, were in wide use well over 25 years ago on the SunOS machines we used at the time, and are widely supported, e.g. Busybox includes an fgrep and egrep. Even the Posix spec acknowledges that that should remain supported for the foreseeable future: =E2=80=9CThe old egrep and fgrep commands are likely to be supported for ma= ny years to come as implementation extensions, allowing historical applications to operate unmodified.=E2=80=9D See https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/grep.html Here is the amount of headache I went through to replace egrep with grep -E= : https://github.com/samboy/MaraDNS/commit/afc9d1800f3a641bdf1bf14d39802443a3= 4c2b70 There are countless other shell scripts out there on countless machines which still use these commands. We should not lightly break widely deployed software, especially software which only needs two one-line shell scripts. -- Sam
Sam Trenholme <maradns@HIDDEN>:bug-grep@HIDDEN.
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