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Subject: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols
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Hello,
after having hard time getting the longhand name of a shorthand symbol
at point (with regexp and the local value of read-symbol-shorthands) I
discover it is easy to get this information with:
(symbol-name (intern-soft (thing-at-point 'symbol)))
Is this the right way to get this information and if so is it
possible to document it?
Thanks.
In GNU Emacs 28.2 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, Motif Version 2.3.8, cairo version 1.16.0)
of 2022-09-12 built on IPad-S340
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12013000
System Description: Linux Mint 20.3
Configured using:
'configure CFLAGS=-O8 --with-mailutils --with-cairo --without-dbus
--without-gconf --without-gsettings --with-x-toolkit=motif'
Configured features:
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LIBOTF LIBSELINUX LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 M17N_FLT MODULES NOTIFY INOTIFY
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value of $LANG: fr_FR.UTF-8
locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
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Memory information:
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<#secure method=pgpmime mode=sign>
--
Thierry
Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System) To: Thierry Volpiatto <thievol@HIDDEN> Subject: bug#59082: Acknowledgement (28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols) Message-ID: <handler.59082.B.16677663022471.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org> References: <875yfresq9.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Gnu-PR-Message: ack 59082 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 59082 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:26:02 +0000 Thank you for filing a new bug report with debbugs.gnu.org. This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message has been received. Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please send it to 59082 <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Please do not send mail to help-debbugs@HIDDEN unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system. --=20 59082: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D59082 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@HIDDEN with problems
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Subject: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols
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> From: Thierry Volpiatto <thievol@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:16:48 +0000
>
> after having hard time getting the longhand name of a shorthand symbol
> at point (with regexp and the local value of read-symbol-shorthands) I
> discover it is easy to get this information with:
>
> (symbol-name (intern-soft (thing-at-point 'symbol)))
>
> Is this the right way to get this information and if so is it
> possible to document it?
João, any comments?
Thanks.
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
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Thierry is correct. Intern-soft is Emacs way to go from a string
representation to the symbol itself (or nowhere, if there's no match). This
is not new with shorthands.
Should we document this in the Elisp manual? Maybe, but where? Shorthand
section? Not sure. This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way
to go from strings to symbols. Before shorthands we got away without this
step for obvious reasons. Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much
code of key symbol processing facilities was already using this indirection
and shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that.
Jo=C3=A3o
On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 12:43 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > From: Thierry Volpiatto <thievol@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:16:48 +0000
> >
> > after having hard time getting the longhand name of a shorthand symbol
> > at point (with regexp and the local value of read-symbol-shorthands) I
> > discover it is easy to get this information with:
> >
> > (symbol-name (intern-soft (thing-at-point 'symbol)))
> >
> > Is this the right way to get this information and if so is it
> > possible to document it?
>
> Jo=C3=A3o, any comments?
>
> Thanks.
>
--000000000000964c9905ed45e62a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto">Thierry is correct. Intern-soft is Emacs way to go from a=
string representation to the symbol itself (or nowhere, if there's no =
match). This is not new with shorthands.<div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0</div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">Should we document this in the Elisp manual?=
Maybe, but where? Shorthand section? Not sure. This is a feature of Lisp i=
n general and the correct way to go from strings to symbols. Before shortha=
nds we got away without this step for obvious reasons. Curiously, I was ple=
asantly surprised that much code of key symbol processing facilities was al=
ready using this indirection and shorthands automatically worked in those f=
acilities because of that.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">Jo=C3=A3o</div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"lt=
r" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 12:43 Eli Zaretskii <<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN">eliz@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">> From: Thierry Volpiatto <<a href=3D"mailto:thie=
vol@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">thievol@HIDDEN</a>=
><br>
> Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2022 20:16:48 +0000<br>
> <br>
> after having hard time getting the longhand name of a shorthand symbol=
<br>
> at point (with regexp and the local value of read-symbol-shorthands) I=
<br>
> discover it is easy to get this information with:<br>
> <br>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(symbol-name (intern-soft (thing-at-point 'symb=
ol)))<br>
> <br>
> Is this the right way to get this information and if so is it<br>
> possible to document it?<br>
<br>
Jo=C3=A3o, any comments?<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
</blockquote></div>
--000000000000964c9905ed45e62a--
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--=-=-=
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Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:
> This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from
> strings to symbols.
Great, thanks to confirm.
> Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol
> processing facilities was already using this indirection and
> shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that.
`substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this.
Say you have the file foo.el with=20
`read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and containing definitions
like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing str=
ing like
"\<f-map>\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a function `f-help`
containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail
complaining `f-dothis` is void.
=2D-=20
Thierry
--=-=-=
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Subject: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols
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Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:46:51 +0000
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Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren't
read by the Lisp reader, but by something else... This is what is at stake,
right?
Maybe if good reasonable semantics can be found, but not sure.
On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 16:20 Thierry Volpiatto <thievol@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from
> > strings to symbols.
>
> Great, thanks to confirm.
>
> > Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol
> > processing facilities was already using this indirection and
> > shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that.
>
> `substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this.
>
> Say you have the file foo.el with
> `read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and containing definiti=
ons
> like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing
> string like
> "\<f-map>\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a function `f-help`
> containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail
> complaining `f-dothis` is void.
>
> --
> Thierry
>
--00000000000084517705ed48c180
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<div dir=3D"auto">Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings=
, which aren't read by the Lisp reader, but by something else... This i=
s what is at stake, right?<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">May=
be if good reasonable semantics can be found, but not sure.</div></div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, No=
v 12, 2022, 16:20 Thierry Volpiatto <<a href=3D"mailto:thievol@HIDDEN=
t" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">thievol@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN" rel=3D"no=
referrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>> writes:=
<br>
<br>
> This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from<br=
>
> strings to symbols.<br>
<br>
Great, thanks to confirm.<br>
<br>
> Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol<br>
> processing facilities was already using this indirection and<br>
> shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that.<b=
r>
<br>
`substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this.<br>
<br>
Say you have the file foo.el with <br>
`read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and c=
ontaining definitions<br>
like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing str=
ing like<br>
"\<f-map>\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a functio=
n `f-help`<br>
containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail<br>
complaining `f-dothis` is void.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Thierry<br>
</blockquote></div>
--00000000000084517705ed48c180--
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Subject: bug#59082: 28.2; Undocumented `intern-soft` feature with shorthands symbols
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
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We can/should of course document the decision that they aren't supported in
rubbed in the manual though (if we make that decision)...
Jo=C3=A3o
On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 16:46 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
> Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren't
> read by the Lisp reader, but by something else... This is what is at stak=
e,
> right?
>
> Maybe if good reasonable semantics can be found, but not sure.
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 16:20 Thierry Volpiatto <thievol@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>>
>> Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes:
>>
>> > This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from
>> > strings to symbols.
>>
>> Great, thanks to confirm.
>>
>> > Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol
>> > processing facilities was already using this indirection and
>> > shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that.
>>
>> `substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this.
>>
>> Say you have the file foo.el with
>> `read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and containing definit=
ions
>> like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing
>> string like
>> "\<f-map>\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a function `f-help`
>> containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail
>> complaining `f-dothis` is void.
>>
>> --
>> Thierry
>>
>
--000000000000413e6f05ed48c596
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"auto">We can/should of course document the decision that they a=
ren't supported in rubbed in the manual though (if we make that decisio=
n)...<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jo=C3=A3o</div></div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, N=
ov 12, 2022, 16:46 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@g=
mail.com">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in=
docstrings, which aren't read by the Lisp reader, but by something els=
e... This is what is at stake, right?<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Maybe if good reasonable semantics can be found, but not sure.</d=
iv></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_att=
r">On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 16:20 Thierry Volpiatto <<a href=3D"mailto:thie=
vol@HIDDEN" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">thievol@pos=
teo.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN" rel=3D"no=
referrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>&=
gt; writes:<br>
<br>
> This is a feature of Lisp in general and the correct way to go from<br=
>
> strings to symbols.<br>
<br>
Great, thanks to confirm.<br>
<br>
> Curiously, I was pleasantly surprised that much code of key symbol<br>
> processing facilities was already using this indirection and<br>
> shorthands automatically worked in those facilities because of that.<b=
r>
<br>
`substitute-command-keys` at least doesn't handle this.<br>
<br>
Say you have the file foo.el with <br>
`read-symbol-shorthands` =3D=3D (("f-" . "foo-")) and c=
ontaining definitions<br>
like `f-dothis`, `f-dothat` etc... and a var `f-help-string` containing str=
ing like<br>
"\<f-map>\[f-dothis]: Description", if you define a functio=
n `f-help`<br>
containing (substitute-command-keys f-help-string) it will fail<br>
complaining `f-dothis` is void.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Thierry<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
--000000000000413e6f05ed48c596--
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> From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:46:51 +0000
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 59082 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>
> Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren't read by the Lisp reader, but by
> something else... This is what is at stake, right?
References to functions and variables in doc strings are a matter of
routine.
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Of course. And for blue the programmer should just use the names of the
symbols there, as always. Shorthands are not the names of symbols, as i
keep reminding.
If the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can refer
to symbols there using shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only.
On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 17:01 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:46:51 +0000
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 59082 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren't
> read by the Lisp reader, but by
> > something else... This is what is at stake, right?
>
> References to functions and variables in doc strings are a matter of
> routine.
>
--0000000000004f953105ed493486
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<div dir=3D"auto">Of course. And for blue the programmer should just use th=
e names of the symbols there, as always. Shorthands are not the names of sy=
mbols, as i keep reminding.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If=
the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can refer to=
symbols there using shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only.</div=
></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr"=
>On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 17:01 Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN=
rg" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">eliz@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">> From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D=
"_blank">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>><br>
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 16:46:51 +0000<br>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" rel=3D"noreferre=
r noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>>, <a href=3D"mailto:590=
82 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">59082@d=
ebbugs.gnu.org</a><br>
> <br>
> Hmm, not sure we should be using shorthands in docstrings, which aren&=
#39;t read by the Lisp reader, but by<br>
> something else... This is what is at stake, right?<br>
<br>
References to functions and variables in doc strings are a matter of<br>
routine.<br>
</blockquote></div>
--0000000000004f953105ed493486--
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> From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:18:57 +0000
> Cc: thievol@HIDDEN, 59082 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>
> Of course. And for blue the programmer should just use the names of the symbols there, as always.
> Shorthands are not the names of symbols, as i keep reminding.
>
> If the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can refer to symbols there using
> shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only.
I don't understand this response. Are you saying that the problem
doesn't exist, or are you saying that you just don't care? Or are you
saying something else?
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 18:14:11 +0000
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On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 17:49 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
> > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:18:57 +0000
> > Cc: thievol@HIDDEN, 59082 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > Of course. And for blue the programmer
>
Sorry, it probably didn't help that this "for blue" slipped in when typing
on my phone.
> If the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can
> refer to symbols there using
> > shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only.
>
> I don't understand this response. Are you saying that the problem
> doesn't exist, or are you saying that you just don't care? Or are you
> saying something else?
>
I understand. I'm saying docstrings are outside the functional scope of
shorthands, so you should just use longhand there for now. Same as you must
use in M-x and other "global" contexts. Because shorthands are not new
names for symbols.
But I'm also saying that, perhaps, for the particular case of docstrings,
which are inherently file-local constructs, the "docstring reader",
whenever it lives, could be enhanced to allow shorthands, too. So the
intermediate representation of the docstring mini-language could
understand that the text x-foo actually references the symbol xeno-foo. And
then C-h f would display the true symbol name as it usually does.
But this would basically be a new feature, not strictly necessary to enable
the things that shorthands are originally designed for. But convenient, for
sure.
Jo=C3=A3o
>
--000000000000e101e905ed49f9c1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D=
"gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 17:49 Eli Zaretskii <<a href=3D"mailt=
o:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">eliz@HIDDEN</a>> w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">> From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1v=
ora <<a href=3D"mailto:joaotavora@HIDDEN" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">joaotavora@HIDDEN</a>><br>
> Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2022 17:18:57 +0000<br>
> Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:thievol@HIDDEN" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">thievol@HIDDEN</a>, <a href=3D"mailto:59082@debbugs=
.gnu.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">59082@HIDDEN=
.org</a><br>
> <br>
> Of course. And for blue the programmer=C2=A0<br></blockquote></div></d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Sorry, it probably didn=
9;t help that this "for blue" slipped in when typing on my phone.=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> If the docstring reader is ever enhanced, then maybe programmers can r=
efer to symbols there using<br>
> shorthands. Until then, shorthands are Lisp-only.<br>
<br>
I don't understand this response.=C2=A0 Are you saying that the problem=
<br>
doesn't exist, or are you saying that you just don't care?=C2=A0 Or=
are you<br>
saying something else?<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></=
div><div dir=3D"auto">I understand. I'm saying docstrings are outside t=
he functional scope of shorthands, so you should just use longhand there fo=
r now. Same as you must use in M-x and other "global" contexts. B=
ecause shorthands are not new names for symbols.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto">But I'm also saying that, perhaps, for the par=
ticular case of docstrings, which are inherently file-local constructs, the=
"docstring reader", whenever it lives, could be enhanced to allo=
w shorthands, too. So the intermediate representation of the=C2=A0 docstrin=
g mini-language could understand that the text x-foo actually references th=
e symbol xeno-foo. And then C-h f would display the true symbol name as it =
usually does.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">But this w=
ould basically be a new feature, not strictly necessary to enable the thing=
s that shorthands are originally designed for. But convenient, for sure.</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Jo=C3=A3o</div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote></div></div></div>
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