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Subject: bug#59882: 30.0.50; Compilation of ELPA packages during version upgrade (Org 9.6 ELPA upgrade from older ELPA version)
Resent-From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
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Hi,

I am writing as a follow-up of numerous errors reports on Org 9.6
upgrades.

Users commonly report issues upgrading Org mode via ELPA when an older,
non-built-in, version of Org is already installed and loaded.

The issue is well described in https://irreal.org/blog/?p=10996

People are commonly getting "invalid function `org-assert-version'",
which indicates compilation issue when `org-assert-version' macro is not
correctly recognized as a macro.

Similar errors have been reported in the past Org upgrades when we
introduced/changes some basic macros in Org.

I am not yet sure about the source of the error, but I suspect that it
might be something to do with package.el. May it be that M-x
package-install / package-reinstall does not unload the old package
versions upon installation? Or maybe there are some stale .elc files
lying around? Any other ideas?

P.S. Please, do not be diverted by the purpose of `org-assert-version'
macro. The origin of the error has nothing to do with it and could as
well happen with any other macro. It is just that we put this particular
macro into all the Org libraries now, making the problem obvious.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#59882: Acknowledgement (30.0.50; Compilation of ELPA packages
 during version upgrade (Org 9.6 ELPA upgrade from older ELPA version))
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Subject: bug#59882: Multiple versions of Org in load-path problem
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To: "Michel Schinz" <michel@HIDDEN>
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 Content preview: Adding this to bug #59882 "Michel Schinz" writes: > Just for
 the record, I also ran into problems when installing Org 9.6 > using Emacs'
 package system on top of an older version that came with > Emacs. If I tried
 to install it as usual (M-x list-pac [...] 
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Adding this to bug #59882

"Michel Schinz" <michel@HIDDEN> writes:

> Just for the record, I also ran into problems when installing Org 9.6
> using Emacs' package system on top of an older version that came with
> Emacs. If I tried to install it as usual (M-x list-packages, then
> install the package from there), I had errors during compilation related
> to `org-assert-version`, and then if I restarted Emacs, I would get a
> fatal error in an unrelated package.
>
> I managed to solve that problem by:
> 1. uninstalling Org 9.6 and exiting Emacs,
> 2. starting Emacs with -q,
> 3. installing Org 9.6 from there (using M-x list-packages as usual),
> 4. restarting Emacs.

Interesting!  I tried this (essentially) and it worked for my case.  In
my case, I had a built-in Org-9.3 and I was trying to use list-packages
to install Org-9.6. I checked that using -q still added Org-9.3 to the
load-path, but, since Org wasn't loaded, the install via list-packages
worked.

The question is what's the proper way of doing this without '-q'?

> I'm not sure this is related to your problem, or whether that helps (but
> I hope it does)...

I think it does.

Side note:

In my testing, I found a strange case where, in *scratch*, I get:

(message "%s" org-version)
;; Error undefined
;; Do 'C-h v org-version'
(message "%s" org-version)
9.3

So, 'describe-variable' on org-version causes Org to be loaded?!?  Why
do I have a feeling this is related to this bug?

-- 
David Masterson

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Subject: bug#59882: Multiple versions of Org in load-path problem
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In-Reply-To: <SJ0PR03MB5455B76B26B72A11E965BFE2A21D9@HIDDEN>
 (message from David Masterson on Thu, 08 Dec 2022 13:56:03 -0800)
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> Cc: emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN, 59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: David Masterson <dsmasterson@HIDDEN>
> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 13:56:03 -0800
> 
> In my testing, I found a strange case where, in *scratch*, I get:
> 
> (message "%s" org-version)
> ;; Error undefined
> ;; Do 'C-h v org-version'
> (message "%s" org-version)
> 9.3
> 
> So, 'describe-variable' on org-version causes Org to be loaded?!?

Why is it so surprising?  Is this the first time you see that a Help
command loads something to do its job?

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 Content preview:  Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN,
 59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
 >> From: David Masterson >> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 13:56:03 -0800 >> >> In
 my testing, I found a strange case where, in *scratch*, I get: >> >> (m [...]
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Cc: emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN, 59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> From: David Masterson <dsmasterson@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 13:56:03 -0800
>> 
>> In my testing, I found a strange case where, in *scratch*, I get:
>> 
>> (message "%s" org-version)
>> ;; Error undefined
>> ;; Do 'C-h v org-version'
>> (message "%s" org-version)
>> 9.3
>> 
>> So, 'describe-variable' on org-version causes Org to be loaded?!?
>
> Why is it so surprising?  Is this the first time you see that a Help
> command loads something to do its job?

Yes, it is surprising.  How did Emacs know to load Org to find
org-version?  I didn't request it to by this action.  Or did it do a
package-activate-all (or similar) to ensure that everything was loaded?
That would be overkill.  Sometimes the best answer is 'nil'.

-- 
David Masterson

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> From: David Masterson <dsmasterson@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michel@HIDDEN,  emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN,  59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 23:43:05 -0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >> So, 'describe-variable' on org-version causes Org to be loaded?!?
> >
> > Why is it so surprising?  Is this the first time you see that a Help
> > command loads something to do its job?
> 
> Yes, it is surprising.  How did Emacs know to load Org to find
> org-version?  I didn't request it to by this action.  Or did it do a
> package-activate-all (or similar) to ensure that everything was loaded?
> That would be overkill.  Sometimes the best answer is 'nil'.

I don't think Emacs does package-activate-all.  But Help commands
frequently load packages to provide the documentation of the symbols
you ask about.  If this is surprising, then I suggest to get used to
it.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>=20
> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN, 59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >> From: David Masterson <dsmasterson@HIDDEN>
> >> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 13:56:03 -0800
> >>
> >> In my testing, I found a strange case where, in *scratch*, I get:
> >>
> >> (message "%s" org-version)
> >> ;; Error undefined
> >> ;; Do 'C-h v org-version'
> >> (message "%s" org-version)
> >> 9.3
> >>
> >> So, 'describe-variable' on org-version causes Org to be loaded?!?
> >
> > Why is it so surprising?  Is this the first time you see that a Help
> > command loads something to do its job?
>=20
> Yes, it is surprising.  How did Emacs know to load Org to find org-versio=
n?=20

This is provided for via emacs' autoload by prefix mechanism.

See:

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Autoload-by-Prefi=
x.html

What you observed will NOT happen if you first run:

=09(clrhash  definition-prefixes)

> didn't request it to by this action.  Or did it do a package-activate-all=
 (or
> similar) to ensure that everything was loaded?
> That would be overkill.  Sometimes the best answer is 'nil'.
>=20
> --
> David Masterson

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> Adding this to bug #59882
>=20
> "Michel Schinz" <michel@HIDDEN> writes:
>=20
> > Just for the record, I also ran into problems when installing Org 9.6
> > using Emacs' package system on top of an older version that came with
> > Emacs. If I tried to install it as usual (M-x list-packages, then
> > install the package from there), I had errors during compilation
> > related to `org-assert-version`, and then if I restarted Emacs, I
> > would get a fatal error in an unrelated package.
> >
> > I managed to solve that problem by:
> > 1. uninstalling Org 9.6 and exiting Emacs, 2. starting Emacs with -q,
> > 3. installing Org 9.6 from there (using M-x list-packages as usual),
> > 4. restarting Emacs.
>=20
> Interesting!  I tried this (essentially) and it worked for my case.  In m=
y case, I
> had a built-in Org-9.3 and I was trying to use list-packages to install O=
rg-9.6. I
> checked that using -q still added Org-9.3 to the load-path, but, since Or=
g
> wasn't loaded, the install via list-packages worked.
>=20
> The question is what's the proper way of doing this without '-q'?
>=20
> > I'm not sure this is related to your problem, or whether that helps
> > (but I hope it does)...
>=20
> I think it does.
>=20
> Side note:
>=20
> In my testing, I found a strange case where, in *scratch*, I get:
>=20
> (message "%s" org-version)
> ;; Error undefined
> ;; Do 'C-h v org-version'
> (message "%s" org-version)
> 9.3
>=20
> So, 'describe-variable' on org-version causes Org to be loaded?!?  [Cook,=
 Malcolm]=20

Yes.  See https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Autoloa=
d-by-Prefix.html

But it will NOT be autoloaded if you first:

(clrhash  definition-prefixes)

HTH & YMMV,

Malcolm

> Why do I
> have a feeling this is related to this bug?

Yeah, I'm not sure what you consider the bug to be now.  Remind me?

>=20
> --
> David Masterson

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 Content preview:  "Cook, Malcolm" writes: >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> >>
 Cc: emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN, 59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> >> From: David Masterson
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"Cook, Malcolm" <MEC@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> 
>> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN, 59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> >> From: David Masterson <dsmasterson@HIDDEN>
>> >> Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2022 13:56:03 -0800
>> >>
>> >> In my testing, I found a strange case where, in *scratch*, I get:
>> >>
>> >> (message "%s" org-version)
>> >> ;; Error undefined
>> >> ;; Do 'C-h v org-version'
>> >> (message "%s" org-version)
>> >> 9.3
>> >>
>> >> So, 'describe-variable' on org-version causes Org to be loaded?!?
>> >
>> > Why is it so surprising?  Is this the first time you see that a Help
>> > command loads something to do its job?
>> 
>> Yes, it is surprising.  How did Emacs know to load Org to find org-version? 
>
> This is provided for via emacs' autoload by prefix mechanism.
>
> See:
>
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Autoload-by-Prefix.html
>
> What you observed will NOT happen if you first run:
>
> 	(clrhash  definition-prefixes)

Ah! Thank you.  In many ways, I still think of Emacs from what I learned
about it in the early 80s (yes, pre-Elisp).  I didn't expect this and,
so, didn't investigate the possibility that it's planned (the Info
documentation has gotten huge).  Apologies to Eli.

-- 
David Masterson

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> From: David Masterson <dsmasterson@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  "michel@HIDDEN" <michel@HIDDEN>,
>   "emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN" <emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN>,  "59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org"
>  <59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2022 11:51:29 -0800
> 
> > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Autoload-by-Prefix.html
> >
> > What you observed will NOT happen if you first run:
> >
> > 	(clrhash  definition-prefixes)
> 
> Ah! Thank you.  In many ways, I still think of Emacs from what I learned
> about it in the early 80s (yes, pre-Elisp).  I didn't expect this and,
> so, didn't investigate the possibility that it's planned (the Info
> documentation has gotten huge).  Apologies to Eli.

No apologies needed, we all learn something new about Emacs every day.

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> In my testing, I found a strange case where, in *scratch*, I get:
>> 
>> (message "%s" org-version)
>> ;; Error undefined
>> ;; Do 'C-h v org-version'
>> (message "%s" org-version)
>> 9.3
>> 
>> So, 'describe-variable' on org-version causes Org to be loaded?!?
>
> Why is it so surprising?  Is this the first time you see that a Help
> command loads something to do its job?

Please note that David's recipe is _not_ what I described in the bug
report.

I am referring to the problem people run into when using M-x
package-install.

AFAIU, package-install must not depend on the older version of a package
being loaded/not loaded.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> So, 'describe-variable' on org-version causes Org to be loaded?!?
>
> Why is it so surprising?  Is this the first time you see that a Help
> command loads something to do its job?

On a related note, is it normal that package like org-mouse.el gets
loaded upon calling C-h f org-mouse- <TAB> completion prompt?
org-mouse.el does not contain a single autoload cookie.

I am asking because org-mouse.el advises some functions and its loading
may cause unexpected consequences. See
https://orgmode.org/list/87r0x6sju1.fsf@HIDDEN

At the same time, we have users complaining about some defcustoms not
being available without loading.
https://orgmode.org/list/25496.19258.682537.503614@HIDDEN

I feel confused about the situation.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
> Cc: David Masterson <dsmasterson@HIDDEN>, emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN,
>  michel@HIDDEN, 59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:51:01 +0000
> 
> On a related note, is it normal that package like org-mouse.el gets
> loaded upon calling C-h f org-mouse- <TAB> completion prompt?
> org-mouse.el does not contain a single autoload cookie.

I think it's expected, because the doc strings need to be loaded.
Stefan, am I right?

> I am asking because org-mouse.el advises some functions and its loading
> may cause unexpected consequences. See
> https://orgmode.org/list/87r0x6sju1.fsf@HIDDEN

I think org-mouse.el should be fixed not to cause such effects just by
loading it.  It should do that only when it is actually used.

> At the same time, we have users complaining about some defcustoms not
> being available without loading.
> https://orgmode.org/list/25496.19258.682537.503614@HIDDEN

That's too vague: it talks about "whether a variable exists", which is
ambiguous.  That a variable is not boundp until its definition is
loaded is perfectly expected, and I don't think defcustom changes that
in any way (unless you autoload the defcustom, which is considered not
the best style around here).

So I guess some clarification is in order: what exactly was the
problem with that variable being "nonexistent"?

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Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:37:07 +0000
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> I am asking because org-mouse.el advises some functions and its loading
>> may cause unexpected consequences. See
>> https://orgmode.org/list/87r0x6sju1.fsf@HIDDEN
>
> I think org-mouse.el should be fixed not to cause such effects just by
> loading it.  It should do that only when it is actually used.

Yes, we plan to do exactly this https://orgmode.org/list/87zgbqqukg.fsf@localhost
However, it will be a breaking backward-incompatible change. And we have
similar issues with several important Org components (ol-* and ob-*). In
particular, ob-*.el packages affect Org simply by defining function
symbols with specific name patters (by ob-core.el design).

Achieving no side effects is difficult in practice.

Also, note that side effects are not uncommon in Elisp packages.
Including, built-ins, like rect.el.
dired+ comes to mind among popular third-party packages.

>> At the same time, we have users complaining about some defcustoms not
>> being available without loading.
>> https://orgmode.org/list/25496.19258.682537.503614@HIDDEN
>
> That's too vague: it talks about "whether a variable exists", which is
> ambiguous.  That a variable is not boundp until its definition is
> loaded is perfectly expected, and I don't think defcustom changes that
> in any way (unless you autoload the defcustom, which is considered not
> the best style around here).
>
> So I guess some clarification is in order: what exactly was the
> problem with that variable being "nonexistent"?

Agree. See the quote below:
https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/25497.41832.663858.836948@HIDDEN/

    Like I said in another message that I sent just before receiving yours
    my conclusion came from the fact that hitting 'C-h v' with the cursor
    on 'org-goto-interface' provided nothing.  It was the first time this
    ever happened to me.  I did try to explicitly enter the variable's
    name by entering 'org-goto<TAB>', which (like 'org-go<TAB>') is not
    enough: it is completed to 'org--goto'.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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>> On a related note, is it normal that package like org-mouse.el gets
>> loaded upon calling C-h f org-mouse- <TAB> completion prompt?

Yes.  See `help-enable-completion-autoload`.

>> I am asking because org-mouse.el advises some functions and its loading
>> may cause unexpected consequences. See
>> https://orgmode.org/list/87r0x6sju1.fsf@HIDDEN
> I think org-mouse.el should be fixed not to cause such effects just by
> loading it.  It should do that only when it is actually used.

Exactly.  Merely loading a file should not affect Emacs's behavior in
any significant way.


        Stefan

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> similar issues with several important Org components (ol-* and ob-*). In
> particular, ob-*.el packages affect Org simply by defining function
> symbols with specific name patters (by ob-core.el design).
> Achieving no side effects is difficult in practice.

That's true.  It can be a balancing act.

> Also, note that side effects are not uncommon in Elisp packages.
> Including, built-ins, like rect.el.
> dired+ comes to mind among popular third-party packages.

Most of them are plain bugs, tho (typically fixed by introducing an
autoloaded minor-mode, so the package is activated by enabling the
minor mode rather than by `require`ing the package).

>     Like I said in another message that I sent just before receiving yours
>     my conclusion came from the fact that hitting 'C-h v' with the cursor
>     on 'org-goto-interface' provided nothing.  It was the first time this
>     ever happened to me.  I did try to explicitly enter the variable's
>     name by entering 'org-goto<TAB>', which (like 'org-go<TAB>') is not
>     enough: it is completed to 'org--goto'.

AFAICT this is a missing feature: we obey `help-enable-autoload` in
`describe-function` but we fail to do the same autoloading dance in
`describe-variable`.


        Stefan

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On 14/12/2022 21:35, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> 
>>      Like I said in another message that I sent just before receiving yours
>>      my conclusion came from the fact that hitting 'C-h v' with the cursor
>>      on 'org-goto-interface' provided nothing.  It was the first time this
>>      ever happened to me.  I did try to explicitly enter the variable's
>>      name by entering 'org-goto<TAB>', which (like 'org-go<TAB>') is not
>>      enough: it is completed to 'org--goto'.
> 
> AFAICT this is a missing feature: we obey `help-enable-autoload` in
> `describe-function` but we fail to do the same autoloading dance in
> `describe-variable`.

I think, the difference is interactive vs. non-interactive calls rather 
than `describe-function' vs. `describe-variable'. What misses this 
feature is `customize-variable'.

Completion failure for "org-to" happened because result of 
`register-definition-prefixes' calls is not considered as options. I am 
aware that it may give false positives, but I still believe they should 
be added.

Though I believe that org mixed version issue happens due to 
transitional dependency of some third party package on org or something 
like (require 'org-protocol) that can not be loaded on demand.

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>On a related note, is it normal that package like org-mouse.el gets
>loaded upon calling C-h f org-mouse- <TAB> completion prompt?
>org-mouse.el does not contain a single autoload cookie.

There need not be which is apparently by design:

The autoload happens as a consequence of emacs' documented feature to [Auto=
load by Prefix](https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/A=
utoload-by-Prefix.html)=20

Given that:

(equal (gethash "org-mouse-"  definition-prefixes) '("org-mouse"))

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Max Nikulin [2022-12-14 23:02:53] wrote:
> On 14/12/2022 21:35, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>>      Like I said in another message that I sent just before receiving yours
>>>      my conclusion came from the fact that hitting 'C-h v' with the cursor
>>>      on 'org-goto-interface' provided nothing.  It was the first time this
>>>      ever happened to me.  I did try to explicitly enter the variable's
>>>      name by entering 'org-goto<TAB>', which (like 'org-go<TAB>') is not
>>>      enough: it is completed to 'org--goto'.
>> AFAICT this is a missing feature: we obey `help-enable-autoload` in
>> `describe-function` but we fail to do the same autoloading dance in
>> `describe-variable`.
>
> I think, the difference is interactive vs. non-interactive calls rather than
> `describe-function' vs. `describe-variable'. What misses this feature is
> `customize-variable'.
>
> Completion failure for "org-to" happened because result of
> `register-definition-prefixes' calls is not considered as options. I am
> aware that it may give false positives, but I still believe they should
> be added.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying.

> Though I believe that org mixed version issue happens due to transitional
> dependency of some third party package on org or something like (require
> 'org-protocol) that can not be loaded on demand.

Hmm... indeed the "Subject:" talks about mixed versions, yet I was
discussing something not directly related.  Looks like I got off-topic
somewhere along the way without noticing, sorry.


        Stefan

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Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Though I believe that org mixed version issue happens due to transitional
>> dependency of some third party package on org or something like (require
>> 'org-protocol) that can not be loaded on demand.
>
> Hmm... indeed the "Subject:" talks about mixed versions, yet I was
> discussing something not directly related.  Looks like I got off-topic
> somewhere along the way without noticing, sorry.

And the off-topic is what has been CCed to Org mailing list :)

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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On 15/12/2022 11:17, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> Max Nikulin [2022-12-14 23:02:53] wrote:
>> Completion failure for "org-to" happened because result of
>> `register-definition-prefixes' calls is not considered as options. I am
>> aware that it may give false positives, but I still believe they should
>> be added.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying.

My bad. "org-go" is completed to "org--goto" while "org-goto-" is not 
offered. The latter might be a variant because "org-goto" is registered 
as an autoload prefix. Ihor kindly created https://debbugs.gnu.org/60085 
"`help-enable-autoload' is not fully obeyed", so it is better to discuss 
it there.

>> Though I believe that org mixed version issue happens due to transitional
>> dependency of some third party package on org or something like (require
>> 'org-protocol) that can not be loaded on demand.
> 
> Hmm... indeed the "Subject:" talks about mixed versions, yet I was
> discussing something not directly related.  Looks like I got off-topic
> somewhere along the way without noticing, sorry.

I have impression that there is no recipe how to reproduce this bug yet, 
just reports that people have faced it. So aspects of autoload may be 
considered as a part of brainstorm.

Other ideas when built-in Org version may be loaded too early:
- restoring previous session.
- user configured Org agenda as startup buffer.

Can it happen that already loaded version affects compilation of a new 
version by package-install.

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Max Nikulin <manikulin@HIDDEN> writes:

> I have impression that there is no recipe how to reproduce this bug yet, 
> just reports that people have faced it. So aspects of autoload may be 
> considered as a part of brainstorm.
>
> Other ideas when built-in Org version may be loaded too early:
> - restoring previous session.
> - user configured Org agenda as startup buffer.
>
> Can it happen that already loaded version affects compilation of a new 
> version by package-install.

Yes. It is what appears to be happening:

https://irreal.org/blog/?p=10996
https://irreal.org/blog/?p=10999

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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On 16/12/2022 21:47, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
>> Can it happen that already loaded version affects compilation of a new
>> version by package-install.
> 
> Yes. It is what appears to be happening:
> 
> https://irreal.org/blog/?p=10996
> https://irreal.org/blog/?p=10999

I would not call it steps to reproduce.

 From my point of view, there is a number of issues with updating of 
packages from emacs session.

1. If compilation of a package failed then it is not withdrawn from the 
load path.

2. There is no reliable way to determine if package compilation failed. 
(byte-recompile-directory DIR 0 t) returns human readable string, not 
signalling an error or returning a value convenient to check in the 
code. It is the cause of the previous issue.

3. Emacs package system is not ready for complex multifile packages 
containing macro definitions. It does not push user to update packages 
just after emacs restart in a clean state. As a result, files may be 
compiled with old or missed macro definitions.

4. Because of the item 2 a package has no chance to implement reliable 
internal sanity check that prevents updating to a broken state.

I have tried the following in Emacs-27. For Emacs >= 29 add -L to Org <= 
9.5.

- "emacs -l org" to simulate a regular user session with some opened files.
- Update to Org-9.6 from ELPA.
- Close emacs and start it again "emacs -l org"

Result:
byte-code: Invalid function: org-assert-version

Notice attempt to load Org-9.6 despite warnings and even error during 
update:

> Compiling file /home/emcs/.emacs.d/elpa/org-9.6/ob-C.el at Sun Dec 18 04:30:49 2022
> Entering directory ‘/home/emcs/.emacs.d/elpa/org-9.6/’
> 
> In end of data:
> ob-C.el:509:1:Warning: the function ‘org-assert-version’ is not known to be
>     defined. 
...
> Compiling file /home/emcs/.emacs.d/elpa/org-9.6/ob-matlab.el at Sun Dec 18 04:30:50 2022
> ob-matlab.el:43:1:Error: Symbol’s function definition is void: org-assert-version

So emacs can not handle update of a package with changed macro 
definitions when they reside in another package file.

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> - "emacs -l org" to simulate a regular user session with some opened file=
s.
> - Update to Org-9.6 from ELPA.
> - Close emacs and start it again "emacs -l org"
>
> Result:
> byte-code: Invalid function: org-assert-version

Hmm... there's code in `package.el` intended to avoid that problem, but
clearly it's failing here.  Could Someone=E2=84=A2 investigate why that code
doesn't do its job.

The code in question is in `package--reload-previously-loaded` and
my understanding is that it should cause `org-macs` to be reloaded from
the Org-9.6 version of the code before the new code gets compiled, and
that new version does define the `org-assert-version` version, so those
macro calls should then be compiled correctly.

[ The approach used in `package--reload-previously-loaded` has its
  weaknesses, but AFAIK it *should* be able to avoid the above error.  ]


        Stefan

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Max Nikulin <manikulin@HIDDEN> writes:

> I have tried the following in Emacs-27. For Emacs >= 29 add -L to Org <= 
> 9.5.
>
> - "emacs -l org" to simulate a regular user session with some opened files.
> - Update to Org-9.6 from ELPA.
> - Close emacs and start it again "emacs -l org"
>
> Result:
> byte-code: Invalid function: org-assert-version

I tried to follow these steps, but unfortunately I am unable to
reproduce. Everything works fine using Emacs 27 on my side. Strange.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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On 18/12/2022 22:40, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> Could Someone™ investigate why that code
> doesn't do its job.
> 
> The code in question is in `package--reload-previously-loaded` and
> my understanding is that it should cause `org-macs` to be reloaded

I do not see obvious flaws in `package--reload-previously-loaded' code. 
My guess is that we get reports from users who have installed released 
versions of emacs.

Notice that my complain concerning failure `byte-recompile-directory', 
hidden from its caller, is still valid.

On 25/12/2022 16:48, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Max Nikulin writes:
> 
>> I have tried the following in Emacs-27. For Emacs >= 29 add -L to Org <=
>> 9.5.

Stefan convinced me that I was too optimistic concerning Emacs-29.

>> - "emacs -l org" to simulate a regular user session with some opened files.
>> - Update to Org-9.6 from ELPA.
>> - Close emacs and start it again "emacs -l org"
>>
>> Result:
>> byte-code: Invalid function: org-assert-version
> 
> I tried to follow these steps, but unfortunately I am unable to
> reproduce. Everything works fine using Emacs 27 on my side. Strange.

I tried it once more in a minimal LXC container with Ubuntu-22.04 LTS 
jammy. This time I even removed the elpa-org-9.5.2 system package, so 
built-in version of org is really used. So, emacs-27

- emacs -l org
- M-x list-packages RET
- / n org RET
- move cursor to org, install it
- i x y
- compilation buffers pops up with warning and errors.

Due to "-l org" some libraries like org, org-macs, ob are loaded. Files 
that `require' already loaded libraries generate warnings

Compiling file /home/emcs/.emacs.d/elpa/org-9.6/ob-R.el at Sun Dec 18 
04:30:49 2022

In end of data:
ob-R.el:562:1:Warning: the function ‘org-assert-version’ is not known to be
     defined.

because `org-assert-version' is defined in org-macs.el, but the old 
version without it is already loaded. Call to `org-assert-version' is 
just added to the .elc file.

E.g. org-keys.el produce the same warning. Another case is

Compiling file /home/emcs/.emacs.d/elpa/org-9.6/ob-matlab.el at Sun Dec 
18 04:30:50 2022
ob-matlab.el:43:1:Error: Symbol’s function definition is void: 
org-assert-version

This file contains "(require 'ob-octave)". Attempt of load new version 
of ob-octave fails because during execution of it contents causes an 
error due to the `org-assert-version' call.

In particular, compilation of org.el fails because the new version has 
new "(require 'org-fold)" and the latter also tries to call undefined 
`org-assert-version'.

So at this point we have partially compiled broken install. Some files 
are not compiled, others have call to `org-assert-version' instead of 
its expansion.

Let's try to start emacs again and load org. Since org.el is not 
compiled, "(org-assert-version)" inside it is unable to catch any 
problem due to mixed-version compilation. Now `org-release' returns new 
version. The failure happens during "(require 'org-keys)" that was 
compiled with the warning.

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (invalid-function org-assert-version)
   org-assert-version()
   byte-code("\300\301!\210\302 \210\300\303!\210\300\304!\207" [require 
org-macs org-assert-version cl-lib oc] 2)
   require(org-keys)

So we have an obscure load time error.  I would say that compile *error* 
messages are obscure as well because it is unclear that errors happen in 
`require'. E.g. when compiling org-matlab.el the reported line number is 
for "(require 'ob-maxima)" while compiling of ob.maxima.el finished with 
a warning, not an error and it is really confusing. "ob-octave:34:" in 
addition to "ob-matlab:43:" during compiling of ob-matlab.el would be 
more informative.

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Subject: bug#59882: Multiple versions of Org in load-path problem
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Max Nikulin <manikulin@HIDDEN> writes:

>> I tried to follow these steps, but unfortunately I am unable to
>> reproduce. Everything works fine using Emacs 27 on my side. Strange.
>
> I tried it once more in a minimal LXC container with Ubuntu-22.04 LTS=20
> jammy. This time I even removed the elpa-org-9.5.2 system package, so=20
> built-in version of org is really used. So, emacs-27
>
> - emacs -l org
> - M-x list-packages RET
> - / n org RET
> - move cursor to org, install it

On my side, it will give nothing useful: the package list is not updated
and I get:

Package org is built-in.

     Status: Built-In.
    Version: 9.4.4
    Summary: Export Framework for Org Mode

Detailed steps I tried (with package refresh) using with-emacs.sh [1]:

1. ~/Git/with-emacs.sh/with-emacs.sh -e emacs-27 -O -- -l org
2. M-x package-list-packages RET
3. C-s outline-based RET
4. RET
5. C-x o C-s instal RET
6. RET y
7. The warnings buffer appears, but only contains
   Warning (defvaralias): Overwriting value of =E2=80=98org-tab-first-hook=
=E2=80=99 by aliasing to =E2=80=98org-cycle-tab-first-hook=E2=80=99

[1] https://github.com/alphapapa/with-emacs.sh

--=20
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes:

> 1. ~/Git/with-emacs.sh/with-emacs.sh -e emacs-27 -O -- -l org

I was finally able to reproduce using emacs-26.

Maybe your Emacs 27 is older than mine? I have GNU Emacs 27.2

I also tried with Emacs 28. Not able to reproduce.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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On 26/12/2022 18:01, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Ihor Radchenko writes:
>> 1. ~/Git/with-emacs.sh/with-emacs.sh -e emacs-27 -O -- -l org
> I was finally able to reproduce using emacs-26.
> 
> Maybe your Emacs 27 is older than mine? I have GNU Emacs 27.2

Debian stable and Ubuntu LTS have Emacs-27.1 only, so I am testing 
1:27.1+1-3ubuntu5

Following the with-emacs.sh script I have tried

mkdir /tmp/emcs
emacs --quick --eval '(setq user-emacs-directory "/tmp/emcs/")' --eval 
'(setq user-init-file "/tmp/emcs/init.el")' -l package --eval '(setq 
package-user-dir "/tmp/emcs/elpa/")' --eval '(package-initialize)' 
--eval '(package-refresh-contents)' -l org

I had no problem to select Org-9.6 from the buffer generated by 
`list-packages'. Compilation errors and the error during next startup 
are the same as I reported before.

I found just single commit to lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el between 
emacs-27.1 and emacs-27.2:

1fc9de4b81c 2020-10-30 19:20:24 -0700 Glenn Morris: Improve 
reproducibility of generated -pkg.el files

So I am still surprised that you can not reproduce the issue.

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Max Nikulin <manikulin@HIDDEN> writes:

> I found just single commit to lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el between 
> emacs-27.1 and emacs-27.2:
>
> 1fc9de4b81c 2020-10-30 19:20:24 -0700 Glenn Morris: Improve 
> reproducibility of generated -pkg.el files
>
> So I am still surprised that you can not reproduce the issue.

Can you then try to test using Emacs 28?
The main question if whether this has been fixed in newer Emacs releases
or it is also something to do with OS environment.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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On 27/12/2022 16:47, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Can you then try to test using Emacs 28?
> The main question if whether this has been fixed in newer Emacs releases
> or it is also something to do with OS environment.

I see quite the same issue with Emacs-28.2 in Debian testing. Compile 
buffer displays a bit more warnings and usual `org-assert-version' 
warnings and errors are present as well. It might have another level of 
complexity due to .eln files. I am unsure what happens with calls to 
undefined macros.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Max Nikulin <manikulin@HIDDEN> writes:

> On 27/12/2022 16:47, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
>> Can you then try to test using Emacs 28?
>> The main question if whether this has been fixed in newer Emacs releases
>> or it is also something to do with OS environment.
>
> I see quite the same issue with Emacs-28.2 in Debian testing. Compile 
> buffer displays a bit more warnings and usual `org-assert-version' 
> warnings and errors are present as well. It might have another level of 
> complexity due to .eln files. I am unsure what happens with calls to 
> undefined macros.

I asked people around to test using Debian, and we do have a
confirmation that Debian + Emacs 27 and Debian + Emacs 28 do trigger the
error.

I also installed Debian 11.6.0 on virtual machine, and I was also able to
trigger the error, following the provided steps, using the Emacs 27
installed via apt-get.

The problem seems to be real and appears to be some combination of
Debian/Ubuntu + Emacs.

Considering the popularity of Debian-based distros, may someone take a
closer look on what may be going on? Since the latest Emacs release also
suffers from the problem, I am afraid that the issue will be present in
the coming Emacs 29 as well (I recall no related fixes in recent Emacs).

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

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> From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, emacs-orgmode@HIDDEN, Eli
>  Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 59882 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2023 11:02:21 +0000
> 
> Considering the popularity of Debian-based distros, may someone take a
> closer look on what may be going on? Since the latest Emacs release also
> suffers from the problem, I am afraid that the issue will be present in
> the coming Emacs 29 as well (I recall no related fixes in recent Emacs).

I don't know enough about package.el's peculiarities, sorry.  And my
plate is too full ATM.  So I'm afraid someone else will have to
investigate this.  (I think Debian downstream maintainers are the
natural candidates, so I've taken the liberty of CC'ing them.)

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Hi Tim, org-mode and emacs developers,
* Tim Cross <theophilusx@HIDDEN> [2023-02-04; 07:01 +11]:
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@HIDDEN> writes:
>> Max Nikulin <manikulin@HIDDEN> writes:
>>> On 27/12/2022 16:47, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
>>>> Can you then try to test using Emacs 28?
>>>> The main question if whether this has been fixed in newer Emacs relea=
ses
>>>> or it is also something to do with OS environment.
>>> I see quite the same issue with Emacs-28.2 in Debian testing. Compile
>>> buffer displays a bit more warnings and usual `org-assert-version'
>>> warnings and errors are present as well. It might have another level o=
f
>>> complexity due to .eln files. I am unsure what happens with calls to
>>> undefined macros.
>>
>> I asked people around to test using Debian, and we do have a
>> confirmation that Debian + Emacs 27 and Debian + Emacs 28 do trigger th=
e
>> error.
>>
>> I also installed Debian 11.6.0 on virtual machine, and I was also able =
to
>> trigger the error, following the provided steps, using the Emacs 27
>> installed via apt-get.
>>
>> The problem seems to be real and appears to be some combination of
>> Debian/Ubuntu + Emacs.
>>
>> Considering the popularity of Debian-based distros, may someone take a
>> closer look on what may be going on? Since the latest Emacs release als=
o
>> suffers from the problem, I am afraid that the issue will be present in
>> the coming Emacs 29 as well (I recall no related fixes in recent Emacs)=
.
>
> I don't run Debian or Ubuntu anymore. However, I do recall that debian
> does use a modified Emacs startup which is not part of the standard
> Emacs distribution. They do this to enable the ability to have multiple
> versions of Emacs installed at the same time.

that would be /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/debian-startup.el


Ciao; Gregor
=2D-
 -... --- .-. . -.. ..--.. ...-.-

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On 15/02/2023 05:53, Gregor Zattler wrote:
> * Tim Cross [2023-02-04; 07:01 +11]:
>>
>> I don't run Debian or Ubuntu anymore. However, I do recall that debian
>> does use a modified Emacs startup which is not part of the standard
>> Emacs distribution. They do this to enable the ability to have multiple
>> versions of Emacs installed at the same time.
> 
> that would be /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/debian-startup.el

This file should be ignored when Emacs is started with --quick (-Q) 
option, see
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=59882#86

I have not checked patches that may be applied to Emacs core files.

Last modified: Thu, 16 Feb 2023 12:30:02 UTC

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