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From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Xie Shynur <one.last.kiss@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#61281: Acknowledgement (=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \,
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Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2023 23:29:02 +0000

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Subject: bug#61281: =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a \, b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?= equals to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9C`?=(a . , b)=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9D?=
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Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 01:28:46 +0100
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Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes:

> Good catch!
>
> `(a \, b) returns (a . <value-of-b>)
>
> Looks like a bug to me.

Isn't `(a \, b) just another read syntax for `(a . (\, b)), which is
another syntax for `(a . ,b) ?

With other words, I think `(a \, b) and `(a . ,b) are different read
syntaxes for the same expression, equivalent to (cons 'a b).

Michael.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> > Good catch!
> >
> > `(a \, b) returns (a . <value-of-b>)
> >
> > Looks like a bug to me.
>=20
> Isn't `(a \, b) just another read syntax for
> `(a . (\, b)), which is another syntax for
> `(a . ,b) ?

Well, yes.  And that's no doubt why we get that.

But (\, b) shouldn't be handled as ,b.  I know
that it is - in Elisp.  I don't think it should
be.  To me, that spells (faulty) implementation
leaking out.

> With other words, I think `(a \, b) and `(a . ,b) are different read
> syntaxes for the same expression, equivalent to (cons 'a b).

Yes, but see above.  I think \, should be read
as the symbol whose print name is ",".  To me,
`(a \, b) should be treated like (a foo b): a
list of 3 symbols - no evaluation.  And `(a \,b)
should be treated as a list of two symbols,
whose print names are "a" and ",b".

The symbol \, should be read as just a symbol.
The same is not true of just an unescaped comma
- outside a backquoted sexp that raises an error,
and inside one it's handled specially as part of
the backquote syntax.

\, is not just ,

I don't have another Lisp interpreter, but I'm
guessing that Common Lisp does what I expect.
(For Common Lisp also, \ escapes a character.)=20

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Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes:

> Yes, but see above.  I think \, should be read
> as the symbol whose print name is ",".

That's the case.

>  To me, `(a \, b) should be treated like (a foo b): a list of 3
> symbols - no evaluation.

No evaluation by backquote, you mean?  Yes, you need to say `(a ,'\, b).
Is this really different in other Lisps (isn't `,' a reader macro in
Common Lisp)?

>  And `(a \,b) should be treated as a list of two symbols, whose print
> names are "a" and ",b".

That's also the case.


I don't decide about this, but when we changed the semantics of `,' like
you suggest, we will probably break a lot of code for no real gain (I
think the semantics in Elisp clear and easy to understand), so this
sounds like a very bad idea to me.

Michael.

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Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@HIDDEN> writes:

> No evaluation by backquote, you mean?  Yes, you need to say `(a ,'\, b).
> Is this really different in other Lisps (isn't `,' a reader macro in
> Common Lisp)?

I mean, what should the Elisp reader return when reading ",foo"?  It
must be some expression, and backquote will have to handle this
expression differently than quote for the thing to work.

Michael.

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On 2/4/2023 8:32 PM, Michael Heerdegen wrote:
> I don't decide about this, but when we changed the semantics of `,' like
> you suggest, we will probably break a lot of code for no real gain (I
> think the semantics in Elisp clear and easy to understand), so this
> sounds like a very bad idea to me.

What about emitting a warning? That shouldn't break anything, and it 
might catch some bugs. (I'm not sure if a warning is easy to add for 
this though...)

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> > Yes, but see above.  I think \, should be
> > read as the symbol whose print name is ",".
>=20
> That's the case.

Inside a backquote, an escaped comma's handled
as if it were unescaped.  That's the bug.
=20
> > To me, `(a \, b) should be treated like
> > (a foo b): a list of 3 symbols - no evaluation.
>=20
> No evaluation by backquote, you mean?

I mean that \, is not (should not be) the same
as comma whether inside or outside a backquote.

It is (should be) only an UNescaped comma that
(1) when inside backquote introduces evaluation
of what follows it and (2) raises an error when
not inside a backquote.

> Yes, you need to say `(a ,'\, b).

When I said "no evaluation" I meant that \,
shouldn't cause evaluation inside backquote.=20
I wasn't talking about evaluating the symbol
\, itself - I'm not interested in doing that.

I'm talking about the special interpretation
of \, here, i.e., its being handled just like
an UNescaped comma, instead of just like any
other symbol (e.g. foo).

> Is this really different in other Lisps=20
> (isn't `,' a reader macro in Common Lisp)?

It may be, dunno, but I'd bet that Common Lisp
treats unescaped comma differently from escaped
comma.

I meant that reading \, should be like reading
foo, whether inside backquote or not.  The only
thing that should introduce evaluation within
a backquote is an UNescaped comma.

\, is not ,

Dunno about the reader macro question.  (But
I'm guessing that the overall difference here
is how the CL reader works, yes.)

> I don't decide about this, but when we changed
> the semantics of `,' like you suggest, we will
> probably break a lot of code for no real gain
> (I think the semantics in Elisp clear and easy
> to understand), so this sounds like a very bad
> idea to me.

I'm not saying the bug should be fixed.  I have
the same concern you express.  Not that I really
think that "a lot of code" will break (I don't),
but that (1) some code might depend on this
behavior and so break, and (more importantly)
(2) it's likely that the new code will introduce
other (new) backquote bugs.  There be dragons.

What I expect is that the bug will be closed as
"wont-fix".  This should nevertheless be seen
as a (minor) bug.  It should be noted somewhere
(at least called out in code comments).

Whether it's important enough to merit mention
in the Elisp manual, I don't know.  Normally
it's not, but someone actually stumbling on this
would need to check the code to discover it and
would need to recognize that it's a bug by design.

File backquote.el says clearly at the outset:

;; When the Lisp reader sees `(...), it generates
;;   (\` (...)).
;;
;; When it sees ,... inside such a backquote form,
;;   it generates (\, ...).
;;
;; For ,@... it generates (\,@ ...).

It's _good_ that it says this.  That's a pretty
clear description of the implementation / design.

(Except that the use of (...) and ... in what the
reader sees doesn't make clear what those stand
for.  Backquote applies to unparenthesized sexps
also.)

It could also usefully say that this doesn't
provide exactly the usual Lisp backquote behavior.
It could call out what we're talking about:
_escaped_ comma is (wrongly) treated as unescaped
comma inside a backquote.  That's the design,
AFAICT, and that's not the traditional behavior
(IIRC).

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> > No evaluation by backquote, you mean?  Yes, you need
> > to say `(a ,'\, b).
> > Is this really different in other Lisps (isn't `,' a
> > reader macro in Common Lisp)?

I think I spoke to this in my previous msg
today.  Let me know, if you think not.

> I mean, what should the Elisp reader return
> when reading ",foo"?

Dunno.  (read ",foo") and (read ", foo" return
(\, foo).  Why?  (Just because the current
implementation of backquote depends on that?)

(read "'foo") returns just 'foo - it doesn't
return (quote foo).  (read "`foo") returns
`foo, not (backquote foo).  (read "`,foo")
returns `,foo.  And (read "\\,foo") returns
\,foo.

Maybe (read ",foo") should rather return
",foo" - but of course the Lisp reader would
need to behave accordingly.  And maybe
(read ", foo") should return ",".

> It must be some expression, and backquote
> will have to handle this expression differently
> than quote for the thing to work.

See above.

Notice the error msg from (eval ',foo):

Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-function \,)
  ,foo
  eval(,foo)
  (progn (eval ',foo))

Nothing in (normal) Lisp syntax shows the use
of comma as a function.  ,foo doesn't look
like function-call syntax, does it?

And here's the error from either (read ",")
or (eval (read ",")):

 End of file during parsing

Yes, an error should be reported in each case,
but I think it should just say that comma is
undefined outside of backquote.

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Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes:

> > > Yes, but see above.  I think \, should be
> > > read as the symbol whose print name is ",".
> >
> > That's the case.
>
> Inside a backquote, an escaped comma's handled
> as if it were unescaped.  That's the bug.

What do you mean by "escaped" and "unescaped" comma?  "\," is the read
syntax for the symbol named ",", is that what you mean by "escaped"
comma?  And the unescaped comma is the reader macro?

Michael.

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Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes:

> Dunno.  (read ",foo") and (read ", foo" return
> (\, foo).  Why?  (Just because the current
> implementation of backquote depends on that?)

As I said: any other format would lead to the same "problem", no?
Unless ",X" is something "meta" that has no reader-construct-less
expansion at all.

> (read "'foo") returns just 'foo - it doesn't
> return (quote foo).  (read "`foo") returns
> `foo, not (backquote foo).  (read "`,foo")
> returns `,foo.

You forget that the printer is able to produce this format.  Try `car'.

> Notice the error msg from (eval ',foo):
>
> Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-function \,)
>   ,foo
>   eval(,foo)
>   (progn (eval ',foo))
>
> Nothing in (normal) Lisp syntax shows the use
> of comma as a function.  ,foo doesn't look
> like function-call syntax, does it?

Another side effect of ,X being equivalent to (\, X.).  That's the only
thing you need to remember.  When you eval that, you should not be
surprised that it's evaluated like ... Lisp evaluates things.

> And here's the error from either (read ",")
> or (eval (read ",")):
>
>  End of file during parsing
>
> Yes, an error should be reported in each case,
> but I think it should just say that comma is
> undefined outside of backquote.

S-exps are defined recursively.  ",X" is read syntax of a valid s-exp,
and I don't think we want to make the reader raise an error for it.  But
the reader expects an expression following the ",".  And a single "," is
_not_the read syntax of the symbol with the name "," (that is "\,":
(symbol-name (read "\\,")) --> ",").

So "End of file during parsing" is an appropriate message: no complete
expression could be read, but something that looks like the start of an
expression.


Ok, so everything is about that you don't want that ,X and (\, X) are
equivalent.  All your arguments were of the kind "the implications are
surprising".  But you never answered the core question: what should ,X
expand to instead that would not have any of these implications?  Else
all you say is that it's surprising when you lack knowledge.


OTOH it seems not easy to find the information ,X == (\, X) somewhere.
Is there a place where there is said something about the kind of
expression the reader construct ,X produces?  I didn't find anything in
a rush.  It should be explained, else this thing indeed can lead to
surprises, as the one reported here.

Michael.

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Jim Porter <jporterbugs@HIDDEN> writes:

> What about emitting a warning? That shouldn't break anything, and it
> might catch some bugs. (I'm not sure if a warning is easy to add for
> this though...)

You mean the reader should emit a warning?  Note that at least
expressions printed by Emacs itself might be printed like this, e.g.

  (nth 1 '`(a . ,b)) ==> (a \, b)

so you would get warnings for automatically generated code.

OTOH, is it that likely that people write something like the above by
accident?  If the symbol "," (with read syntax "\,") appears outside
backquote or pcase patterns at a place where it is funcalled or
referenced as a variable you already get a compiler warning.  And are we
sure that nobody ever wants to use that syntax by purpose?


BTW, if you are working with backquote expressions a lot you are seeing
such commas in apparently "normal" (undotted) lists regularly (because
the printer seems to prefer that syntax over using a dotted list, like
in the above example).  It surprises you only once or twice.


Michael.

Last modified: Mon, 6 Feb 2023 00:15:01 UTC

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