Assaf Gordon <assafgordon@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.Assaf Gordon <assafgordon@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.
Received: (at 7433) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Sep 2011 16:10:50 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Sep 30 12:10:50 2011
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
id 1R9ffl-00019X-CX
for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 12:10:50 -0400
Received: from mail-iy0-f172.google.com ([209.85.210.172])
by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
(envelope-from <phil.ganchev@HIDDEN>) id 1R9aRi-000193-EM
for 7433 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 06:35:59 -0400
Received: by iaby26 with SMTP id y26so1730782iab.3
for <7433 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 03:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma;
h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type;
bh=j5S4EeuPGASEFWOrL/KNaCtBFHrm1drHkoKPcjwMAKM=;
b=Jsv0jt5aZt5fo/O/K9lwn0U1/lqKHfD2yEcheH34CFjtiypwZAnxRRxTZNOWr0CDVq
fXfYf529Q5SVdy69q92IhUgmgQtCkB7o/VyAGZ1mfh46OUhmHc2lkBJopNagcf1+ICZz
ncE3vpl+OsTZk+1xoyqPm0NJqPcMVsSUBgL+A=
Received: by 10.42.134.4 with SMTP id j4mr2542005ict.135.1317378892141; Fri,
30 Sep 2011 03:34:52 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 10.42.239.200 with HTTP; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 03:34:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Philip Ganchev <phil.ganchev@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 13:34:32 +0300
Message-ID: <CADOhUpfzRiq0K1nvW5_Opt02wL0gStf_zW8quv=uxX6UCDQDUw@HIDDEN>
Subject:
To: 7433 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+)
X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org",
has
identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message
has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or
label similar future email. If you have any questions, see
the administrator of that system for details.
Content preview: On 18 Nov 2010,
Jari Aalto wrote: >> Manual page of ls(1) reads: >> >> -d,
--directory >> list directory entries instead of contents,
and do not derefer- >> ence symbolic links On 18 Nov 2010,
Eric Blake wrote: [...] > What wording change, if any,
can you propose for the --help output
that > would not make things too verbose for what is supposed to be a
quick > reference? [...]
Content analysis details: (1.2 points, 10.0 required)
pts rule name description
---- ----------------------
--------------------------------------------------
3.0 GOT_NO_SUBJECT No real subject
-1.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/,
low trust [209.85.210.172 listed in list.dnswl.org]
-0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record
-2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1%
[score: 0.0000]
1.8 MISSING_SUBJECT Missing Subject: header
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7433
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 12:10:48 -0400
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>,
<mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>,
<mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/)
On 18 Nov 2010, Jari Aalto wrote:
>> Manual page of ls(1) reads:
>>
>> -d, --directory
>> list directory entries instead of contents, and do not derefer-
>> ence symbolic links
On 18 Nov 2010, Eric Blake wrote:
[...]
> What wording change, if any, can you propose for the --help output that
> would not make things too verbose for what is supposed to be a quick
> reference?
--help currently shows:
I would suggest:
when listing directories, show their names instead of
contents; do not
dereference symbolic links
or
when listing directories, show their names, not their
contents; do not
dereference symbolic links
These are only 13 characters (15%) longer, but are, I think, clearer.
>> "info ls" reads:
>>
>> `-d'
>> `--directory'
>> List just the names of directories, as with other types of files,
>> rather than listing their contents. Do not follow symbolic links
>> listed on the command line unless the `--dereference-command-line'
>> (`-H'), `--dereference' (`-L'), or
>> `--dereference-command-line-symlink-to-dir' options are specified.
I would suggest:
When listing directories, list just their names like other
types of files,
instead of listing their contents. This overrides the
`--recursive' (`-R')
option. Do not follow symbolic links listed on the command
line unless
the `--dereference-command-line' (`-H'), `--dereference' (`-L'), or
`--dereference-command-line-symlink-to-dir' options are specified.
This is 55 characters (18%) longer, but clearer.
Regards,
Philip Ganchev
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#7433; Package coreutils.
Full text available.
Received: (at 7433) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Nov 2010 23:45:15 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 18 18:45:15 2010
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
id 1PJEAF-00084j-4B
for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:45:15 -0500
Received: from c-67-162-90-113.hsd1.in.comcast.net ([67.162.90.113]
helo=kosh.dhis.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.69)
(envelope-from <pacman-cu@HIDDEN>) id 1PJEAD-00084c-Hn
for 7433 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:45:14 -0500
Received: (qmail 17101 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Nov 2010 23:50:18 -0000
Message-ID: <20101118235018.17100.qmail@HIDDEN>
From: "Alan Curry" <pacman-cu@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#7433: ls: [manual] description for --directory is insufficient
To: eblake@HIDDEN (Eric Blake)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:50:18 -0500 (GMT+5)
In-Reply-To: <4CE54368.8090000@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7433
Cc: 603895@HIDDEN, 7433 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@HIDDEN>
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>,
<mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>,
<mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Spam-Score: -0.4 (/)
Eric Blake writes:
>
> The wording for -d may not mention it, but the wording at the very
> beginning of the --help and man page is clear that:
>
> | Usage: ls [OPTION]... [FILE]...
> | List information about the FILEs (the current directory by default).
In other words, to correctly predict the behavior of "ls -d" you must
read two pieces of information that are not immediately adjacent to each
other, and use a minimal amount of thought to decide whether and how
they influence each other.
For people who read documentation all the way through, knowing that a
thorough understanding of the available tools will be a long-term
benefit, this is not a problem. Let's call these people the "smart
bears". They'll get the garbage can open easily because they're patient.
For people who only skim documentation, and not even that until they
have a problem, the obstacle is larger. If there isn't a single sentence
that tells them everything they need to know, they're not going to get
it. Let's call these people the "dumb tourists". They're impatient with
the garbage can latch, because they're holding a smelly bag of garbage.
Smart bears see a thick instruction manual and say "Hooray! Proper
documentation! I won't have to guess how it works." Dumb tourists see a
thick instruction manual and say "Screw that, reading sucks, I can guess
how it works."
man pages are written by and for smart bears. Dumb tourists don't write
documentation. Sometimes they write web pages which they optimistically
call "documentation".
Making documentation dumb-tourist-friendly inevitably makes it longer,
because it has to have a clause for each goal that the reader might want
to achieve, instead of just listing the facts and expecting the reader
to be able to put them together. The increased length bothers the smart
bears since it increases the time required to read the documentation
all the way through.
In the case of ls, I suggest that -d is special enough (since it affects
how the non-option arguments are used, unlike other ls options) that a
little extra length is justified. It would be reasonable to provide 2
separate SYNOPSIS lines, something like this:
SYNOPSIS
ls [OPTION]... [FILE]...
ls -d [OPTION]... [FILE]...
DESCRIPTION
The first form lists the given FILEs, and if any of them are
directories, the directory contents are listed. If no FILEs are
given, the contents of the current directory are listed.
The second form (with -d) lists the given FILEs, but any FILE
that is a directory will not have its contents listed. With no
FILEs given, the current directory (not its contents) is listed.
I don't care how you'd translate that to/from --help. I care about man
pages, not --help.
If that seems like giving too much attention to -d, how about this
alternative: add an EXAMPLES section. Dumb tourists love EXAMPLES
sections, and smart bears can safely skip them. It's a little bit
ridiculous that cat(1) has examples and ls(1) doesn't. ls has a lot more
options.
And the conflict between -R and -d should be explicitly mentioned. One
of them makes the other meaningless, and we should say which one.
--
Alan Curry
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#7433; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at 7433) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Nov 2010 15:12:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 18 10:12:15 2010 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1PJ69n-0004Yv-Dy for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 10:12:15 -0500 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <eblake@HIDDEN>) id 1PJ69e-0004YY-32 for 7433 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 10:12:13 -0500 Received: from int-mx02.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (int-mx02.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.12]) by mx1.redhat.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oAIFGxBO006325 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 18 Nov 2010 10:16:59 -0500 Received: from [10.3.113.126] (ovpn-113-126.phx2.redhat.com [10.3.113.126]) by int-mx02.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id oAIFGwfD000695; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 10:16:58 -0500 Message-ID: <4CE54368.8090000@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 08:16:56 -0700 From: Eric Blake <eblake@HIDDEN> Organization: Red Hat User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101103 Fedora/1.0-0.33.b2pre.fc14 Lightning/1.0b3pre Mnenhy/0.8.3 Thunderbird/3.1.6 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#7433: ls: [manual] description for --directory is insufficient References: <87tyje7q9t.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87tyje7q9t.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.2 OpenPGP: url=http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig2D6DF7D9FF83B9017297D934" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.5.11.12 X-Spam-Score: -10.2 (----------) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 7433 Cc: 7433 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 603895@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -10.2 (----------) This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig2D6DF7D9FF83B9017297D934 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 11/18/2010 05:46 AM, Jari Aalto wrote: > Package: coreutils > Version: 8.5-1 > Severity: normal >=20 > [Forwarded from http://bugs.debian.org/603895 ] Thanks for the report. >=20 > Manual page of ls(1) reads: >=20 > -d, --directory > list directory entries instead of contents, and do not d= erefer- > ence symbolic links Which is generated from the 'ls --help' output. > None of these is helpful in understanding how the option is supposed > to work: >=20 > ls -d The wording for -d may not mention it, but the wording at the very beginning of the --help and man page is clear that: | Usage: ls [OPTION]... [FILE]... | List information about the FILEs (the current directory by default). That is, 'ls -d' is the same as 'ls -d .', as required by POSIX, at which point you are listing the current directory as a file, and not the contents of the current directory. > ls -dR When listing directories as files (-d), no recursion (-R) takes place because no directories are encountered, just files. Again, this behavior is required by POSIX. What wording change, if any, can you propose for the --help output that would not make things too verbose for what is supposed to be a quick reference? > After lot of Google, a miracle command syntax is found: >=20 > ls -d */ Yes, that says list all directories (and symlinks to directories) in the current directory, that don't start with leading ., as a file. > Please improve the documentation and give examples. Btw, the command > syntax "*/" is counterintuitive to rest of the ls(1) behavior: >=20 > ls -a vs. ls -d Yes, comparing these two in the info pages would be a useful addition (although I'm not sure that we should bloat the already-long --help output for this). Could you propose a patch? --=20 Eric Blake eblake@HIDDEN +1-801-349-2682 Libvirt virtualization library http://libvirt.org --------------enig2D6DF7D9FF83B9017297D934 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Public key at http://people.redhat.com/eblake/eblake.gpg Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJM5UNpAAoJEKeha0olJ0NqlZ8H/Rj2r8uJqQHw5s3cEEfoIUE4 kl1ESK43VVoDj7Zsoxx51mPGtQt1F3PVcuo64zK0yPvIVZ+OUjwOmuDOEFedLk0W MdgD2CHofJvGfI7WNLquF6Tfx7LwWDEFtg8wGzDfGAUieEK/E7YlVSXdQnaeq80Q D4/pkFEdlna859Yk4yTVJYrlG/1FQGeYljnrYEM8/pX8iV327Hd9yYD/1MeDjnJW 4pjMFUYCBt3G6CObBt4bGhugC8T0MrvHuNQi4SE7lWXYUaTTG+l4mBof/MgoFRSf lt5E/nQvWk9aRG+d/zPlcgFZy99GJWSR5MQ19co4vwrGpYtbggiB68P+2pzM71M= =T4vS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig2D6DF7D9FF83B9017297D934--
owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#7433; Package coreutils.
Full text available.
Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Nov 2010 12:41:56 +0000
From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 18 07:41:56 2010
Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org)
by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
(envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>)
id 1PJ3oK-0003Y5-4l
for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 07:41:56 -0500
Received: from emh03.mail.saunalahti.fi ([62.142.5.109])
by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69)
(envelope-from <jari.aalto@HIDDEN>) id 1PJ3oH-0003Y0-GK
for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 07:41:55 -0500
Received: from saunalahti-vams (vs3-10.mail.saunalahti.fi [62.142.5.94])
by emh03-2.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with SMTP id D53C5EBB11
for <submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:46:56 +0200 (EET)
Received: from emh07.mail.saunalahti.fi ([62.142.5.117])
by vs3-10.mail.saunalahti.fi ([62.142.5.94])
with SMTP (gateway) id A03649C7C83; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:46:56 +0200
Received: from picasso.cante.net (a91-155-187-216.elisa-laajakaista.fi
[91.155.187.216])
by emh07.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC4341C6389
for <submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:46:54 +0200 (EET)
From: Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@HIDDEN>
To: submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: ls: [manual] description for --directory is insufficient
Mail-Copies-To: poster
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 14:46:54 +0200
Message-ID: <87tyje7q9t.fsf@HIDDEN>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Antivirus: VAMS
X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--)
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit
X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11
Precedence: list
List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>,
<mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/pipermail/debbugs-submit>
List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>,
<mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org
X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--)
Package: coreutils
Version: 8.5-1
Severity: normal
[Forwarded from http://bugs.debian.org/603895 ]
Manual page of ls(1) reads:
-d, --directory
list directory entries instead of contents, and do not derefer-
ence symbolic links
"info ls" reads:
`-d'
`--directory'
List just the names of directories, as with other types of files,
rather than listing their contents. Do not follow symbolic links
listed on the command line unless the `--dereference-command-line'
(`-H'), `--dereference' (`-L'), or
`--dereference-command-line-symlink-to-dir' options are specified.
None of these is helpful in understanding how the option is supposed
to work:
ls -d
ls -dR
ls -dr
ls --directory -R
ls --directory -r
ls --directory
=> They all just return '.'
After lot of Google, a miracle command syntax is found:
ls -d */
Please improve the documentation and give examples. Btw, the command
syntax "*/" is counterintuitive to rest of the ls(1) behavior:
ls -a vs. ls -d
-- System Information
Debian Release: squeeze/sid
APT Prefers testing
APT policy: (990, testing) (500, unstable) (1, experimental)
Architecture: amd64
Kernel: Linux picasso 2.6.32-5-amd64 #1 SMP Fri Sep 17 21:50:19 UTC 2010 x86_64 GNU/Linux
Locale: LANG=en_DK.UTF-8
-- Versions of packages `coreutils depends on'.
Pre-Depends:
libacl1 2.2.49-4 This package contains the libacl.so dynamic l
libattr1 1:2.4.44-2 Contains the runtime environment required by
libc6 2.11.2-7 Contains the standard libraries that are used
libselinux1 2.0.96-1 This package provides the shared libraries fo
Jari Aalto <jari.aalto@HIDDEN>:bug-coreutils@HIDDEN.
Full text available.owner <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#7433; Package coreutils.
Full text available.
GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd,
1994-97 Ian Jackson.