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Subject: bug#76567: 30.1; package-install-upgrade-built-in upgrades built-ins to the same version
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--000000000000524045062efd65b5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to install
my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune and
curate packages.

One thing that surprised me, that I didn't notice in 29.4, is that if
'package-install-upgrade-built-in' is non-nil, 'package-list-packages'
reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *identical
versions* in the 30.1 tree.  I was expecting upgrades to be actual
upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.  The reason I didn't see
this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than ELPA so I
was happy to take the upgrades.  This does not appear to be a
regression, just a general bug report.

-Stephane

In GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin22.6.0, NS appkit-2299.77
 Version 13.7.2 (Build 22H313)) of 2025-02-25 built on
 Mac-1740473029287.local
Repository revision: 2320030121b57844d3532119c12b340f1bbde5cb
Repository branch: HEAD
Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
System Description:  macOS 12.7.6

Configured using:
 'configure --with-ns --with-modules
 '--enable-locallisppath=/Library/Application
 Support/Emacs/${version}/site-lisp:/Library/Application
 Support/Emacs/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/opt/homebrew/share/emacs/site-lisp'
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Configured features:
ACL DBUS GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS JPEG LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP
NOTIFY KQUEUE NS PDUMPER PNG RSVG SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP XIM XWIDGETS ZLIB

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Major mode: ELisp-ts/l

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Memory information:
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 (vectors 16 151815) (vector-slots 8 2562246 211292)
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospac=
e">As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to install<b=
r>my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune and<br=
>curate packages.<br><br>One thing that surprised me, that I didn&#39;t not=
ice in 29.4, is that if<br>&#39;package-install-upgrade-built-in&#39; is no=
n-nil, &#39;package-list-packages&#39;<br>reports built-ins needing upgrade=
s from ELPA but to the *identical<br>versions* in the 30.1 tree.=C2=A0 I wa=
s expecting upgrades to be actual<br>upgrades, not side-grades, as they say=
.=C2=A0 The reason I didn&#39;t see<br>this on 29.4, is that the distro ver=
sions were older than ELPA so I<br>was happy to take the upgrades.=C2=A0 Th=
is does not appear to be a<br>regression, just a general bug report.<br><br=
>-Stephane<br><br>In GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin22.6.0, NS=
 appkit-2299.77<br>=C2=A0Version 13.7.2 (Build 22H313)) of 2025-02-25 built=
 on<br>=C2=A0Mac-1740473029287.local<br>Repository revision: 2320030121b578=
44d3532119c12b340f1bbde5cb<br>Repository branch: HEAD<br>Windowing system d=
istributor &#39;Apple&#39;, version 10.3.2113<br>System Description: =C2=A0=
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ith-modules<br>=C2=A0&#39;--enable-locallisppath=3D/Library/Application<br>=
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ort/Emacs/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/opt/homebrew/share/em=
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orfu-terminal-autoloads<br>corfu-autoloads cpp-auto-include-autoloads csv-m=
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s<br>page-break-lines-autoloads paredit-autoloads polymode-autoloads<br>pop=
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oloads rainbow-delimiters-autoloads rainbow-mode-autoloads<br>realgud-ipdb-=
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ngs-mode-autoloads<br>request-autoloads rg-autoloads ruff-format-autoloads<=
br>reformatter-autoloads shut-up-autoloads simple-httpd-autoloads<br>spell-=
fu-autoloads sqlite3-autoloads svg-lib-autoloads swiper-autoloads<br>ivy-au=
toloads symbol-overlay-autoloads tempel-collection-autoloads<br>tempel-auto=
loads test-simple-autoloads textsize-autoloads tide-autoloads<br>flycheck-a=
utoloads s-autoloads dash-autoloads tramp-autoloads<br>transient-autoloads =
treepy-autoloads verilog-mode-autoloads<br>vertico-autoloads visual-fill-co=
lumn-autoloads vlf-autoloads<br>vundo-autoloads web-mode-autoloads websocke=
t-autoloads wgrep-autoloads<br>which-key-autoloads window-tool-bar-autoload=
s info with-editor-autoloads<br>xclip-autoloads xr-autoloads yafolding-auto=
loads yaml-autoloads<br>yaml-mode-autoloads zmq-autoloads zoom-autoloads zo=
utline-autoloads<br>package browse-url url url-proxy url-privacy url-expand=
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il mailcap<br>url-handlers url-parse auth-source eieio eieio-core cl-macs<b=
r>password-cache json url-vars early-init my-early-init comp cl-seq<br>comp=
-cstr cl-extra help-mode comp-common warnings icons rx pcase nsm map<br>byt=
e-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile subr-x cl-loaddefs cl-lib rmc<br>iso-transl =
tooltip cconv eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook<br>vc-hooks lisp-flo=
at-type elisp-mode mwheel term/ns-win ns-win<br>ucs-normalize mule-util ter=
m/common-win tool-bar dnd fontset image<br>regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list=
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menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu<br>timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-=
lock font-lock syntax font-core<br>term/tty-colors frame minibuffer nadvice=
 seq simple cl-generic<br>indonesian philippine cham georgian utf-8-lang mi=
sc-lang vietnamese<br>tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp=
51932 hebrew greek<br>romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrill=
ic chinese<br>composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table epa-hook<b=
r>jka-cmpr-hook help abbrev obarray oclosure cl-preloaded button loaddefs<b=
r>theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties<br>ov=
erlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget keymap<br>ha=
shtable-print-readable backquote threads xwidget-internal dbusbind<br>kqueu=
e cocoa ns lcms2 multi-tty make-network-process native-compile<br>emacs)<br=
><br>Memory information:<br>((conses 16 1904497 540393) (symbols 48 65358 2=
2)<br>=C2=A0(strings 32 355138 39616) (string-bytes 1 13436956)<br>=C2=A0(v=
ectors 16 151815) (vector-slots 8 2562246 211292)<br>=C2=A0(floats 8 1387 1=
2802) (intervals 56 91890 773) (buffers 992 57))<br></div></div>

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X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#76567: Acknowledgement (30.1; package-install-upgrade-built-in
 upgrades built-ins to the same version)
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76567: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D76567
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X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#76567: 30.1; package-install-upgrade-built-in upgrades built-ins to the same version
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 (message from Ship Mints on Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500)
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> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500
> 
> As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to install
> my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune and
> curate packages.
> 
> One thing that surprised me, that I didn't notice in 29.4, is that if
> 'package-install-upgrade-built-in' is non-nil, 'package-list-packages'
> reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *identical
> versions* in the 30.1 tree.  I was expecting upgrades to be actual
> upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.  The reason I didn't see
> this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than ELPA so I
> was happy to take the upgrades.  This does not appear to be a
> regression, just a general bug report.

Philip, could you please look into this?

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
>> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500
>>=20
>> As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to install
>> my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune and
>> curate packages.
>>=20
>> One thing that surprised me, that I didn't notice in 29.4, is that if
>> 'package-install-upgrade-built-in' is non-nil, 'package-list-packages'
>> reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *identical
>> versions* in the 30.1 tree.  I was expecting upgrades to be actual
>> upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.  The reason I didn't see
>> this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than ELPA so I
>> was happy to take the upgrades.  This does not appear to be a
>> regression, just a general bug report.
>
> Philip, could you please look into this?

(emacs) Package Installation says:

   If you customize =E2=80=98package-install-upgrade-built-in=E2=80=99 to a=
 non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99
value, be very careful when using commands that update many packages at
once, like =E2=80=98package-upgrade-all=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98U=E2=80=99 in=
 the package menu: those
might overwrite built-in packages that you didn't intent to replace with
newer versions from the archives.  Don't use these bulk commands if you
want to update only a small number of built-in packages.

I read this as that OPs behaviour what the option intends to do.

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Subject: bug#76567: 30.1; package-install-upgrade-built-in upgrades built-ins to the same version
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"replace with newer versions from the archives" is not what's happening.
It seems to replace with identical versions, just from the archives.

On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.=
net>
wrote:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> >> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> >> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500
> >>
> >> As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to install
> >> my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune and
> >> curate packages.
> >>
> >> One thing that surprised me, that I didn't notice in 29.4, is that if
> >> 'package-install-upgrade-built-in' is non-nil, 'package-list-packages'
> >> reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *identical
> >> versions* in the 30.1 tree.  I was expecting upgrades to be actual
> >> upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.  The reason I didn't see
> >> this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than ELPA so I
> >> was happy to take the upgrades.  This does not appear to be a
> >> regression, just a general bug report.
> >
> > Philip, could you please look into this?
>
> (emacs) Package Installation says:
>
>    If you customize =E2=80=98package-install-upgrade-built-in=E2=80=99 to=
 a non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99
> value, be very careful when using commands that update many packages at
> once, like =E2=80=98package-upgrade-all=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98U=E2=80=99 =
in the package menu: those
> might overwrite built-in packages that you didn't intent to replace with
> newer versions from the archives.  Don't use these bulk commands if you
> want to update only a small number of built-in packages.
>
> I read this as that OPs behaviour what the option intends to do.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D""><font face=3D"mono=
space">&quot;replace with=C2=A0newer versions from the archives<span class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"">&quot; is not what&#39;s happening.=C2=A0 It =
seems to replace with identical versions, just from the archives.</span></f=
ont></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM Ph=
ilip Kaludercic &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philipk@HIDDEN">philipk@HIDDEN=
t</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@g=
nu.org</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN" target=
=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to ins=
tall<br>
&gt;&gt; my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune=
 and<br>
&gt;&gt; curate packages.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; One thing that surprised me, that I didn&#39;t notice in 29.4, is =
that if<br>
&gt;&gt; &#39;package-install-upgrade-built-in&#39; is non-nil, &#39;packag=
e-list-packages&#39;<br>
&gt;&gt; reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *identical=
<br>
&gt;&gt; versions* in the 30.1 tree.=C2=A0 I was expecting upgrades to be a=
ctual<br>
&gt;&gt; upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.=C2=A0 The reason I didn&#3=
9;t see<br>
&gt;&gt; this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than ELPA so =
I<br>
&gt;&gt; was happy to take the upgrades.=C2=A0 This does not appear to be a=
<br>
&gt;&gt; regression, just a general bug report.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Philip, could you please look into this?<br>
<br>
(emacs) Package Installation says:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If you customize =E2=80=98package-install-upgrade-built-in=E2=
=80=99 to a non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99<br>
value, be very careful when using commands that update many packages at<br>
once, like =E2=80=98package-upgrade-all=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98U=E2=80=99 in=
 the package menu: those<br>
might overwrite built-in packages that you didn&#39;t intent to replace wit=
h<br>
newer versions from the archives.=C2=A0 Don&#39;t use these bulk commands i=
f you<br>
want to update only a small number of built-in packages.<br>
<br>
I read this as that OPs behaviour what the option intends to do.<br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
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--000000000000a56fec062f0d7635
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e.g., Emacs 30.1 embeds project.el:

;; Copyright (C) 2015-2025 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
;; Version: 0.11.1
;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (xref "1.7.0"))

The not-newer version package downloaded from the archives:

;; Copyright (C) 2015-2024 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
;; Version: 0.11.1
;; Package-Requires: ((emacs "26.1") (xref "1.7.0"))

On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 10:41=E2=80=AFAM Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> w=
rote:

> "replace with newer versions from the archives" is not what's happening.
> It seems to replace with identical versions, just from the archives.
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@poste=
o.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>>
>> >> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
>> >> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500
>> >>
>> >> As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to instal=
l
>> >> my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune an=
d
>> >> curate packages.
>> >>
>> >> One thing that surprised me, that I didn't notice in 29.4, is that if
>> >> 'package-install-upgrade-built-in' is non-nil, 'package-list-packages=
'
>> >> reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *identical
>> >> versions* in the 30.1 tree.  I was expecting upgrades to be actual
>> >> upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.  The reason I didn't see
>> >> this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than ELPA so I
>> >> was happy to take the upgrades.  This does not appear to be a
>> >> regression, just a general bug report.
>> >
>> > Philip, could you please look into this?
>>
>> (emacs) Package Installation says:
>>
>>    If you customize =E2=80=98package-install-upgrade-built-in=E2=80=99 t=
o a non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99
>> value, be very careful when using commands that update many packages at
>> once, like =E2=80=98package-upgrade-all=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98U=E2=80=99=
 in the package menu: those
>> might overwrite built-in packages that you didn't intent to replace with
>> newer versions from the archives.  Don't use these bulk commands if you
>> want to update only a small number of built-in packages.
>>
>> I read this as that OPs behaviour what the option intends to do.
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospac=
e">e.g., Emacs 30.1 embeds project.el:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" st=
yle=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:monospace">;; Copyright (C) 2015-2025 Free Software Foundat=
ion, Inc.<br>;; Version: 0.11.1<br>;; Package-Requires: ((emacs &quot;26.1&=
quot;) (xref &quot;1.7.0&quot;))<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-family:monospace">The not-newer version package downloaded from the a=
rchives:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">;; C=
opyright (C) 2015-2024 Free Software Foundation, Inc.<br>;; Version: 0.11.1=
<br>;; Package-Requires: ((emacs &quot;26.1&quot;) (xref &quot;1.7.0&quot;)=
)<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 10:41=E2=80=AFAM S=
hip Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN">shipmints@HIDDEN</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"monospace">&quot;r=
eplace with=C2=A0newer versions from the archives<span class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt">&quot; is not what&#39;s happening.=C2=A0 It seems to replace with iden=
tical versions, just from the archives.</span></font></div></div><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 26, =
2025 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:philipk@po=
steo.net" target=3D"_blank">philipk@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN" target=
=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to ins=
tall<br>
&gt;&gt; my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune=
 and<br>
&gt;&gt; curate packages.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; One thing that surprised me, that I didn&#39;t notice in 29.4, is =
that if<br>
&gt;&gt; &#39;package-install-upgrade-built-in&#39; is non-nil, &#39;packag=
e-list-packages&#39;<br>
&gt;&gt; reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *identical=
<br>
&gt;&gt; versions* in the 30.1 tree.=C2=A0 I was expecting upgrades to be a=
ctual<br>
&gt;&gt; upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.=C2=A0 The reason I didn&#3=
9;t see<br>
&gt;&gt; this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than ELPA so =
I<br>
&gt;&gt; was happy to take the upgrades.=C2=A0 This does not appear to be a=
<br>
&gt;&gt; regression, just a general bug report.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Philip, could you please look into this?<br>
<br>
(emacs) Package Installation says:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If you customize =E2=80=98package-install-upgrade-built-in=E2=
=80=99 to a non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99<br>
value, be very careful when using commands that update many packages at<br>
once, like =E2=80=98package-upgrade-all=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98U=E2=80=99 in=
 the package menu: those<br>
might overwrite built-in packages that you didn&#39;t intent to replace wit=
h<br>
newer versions from the archives.=C2=A0 Don&#39;t use these bulk commands i=
f you<br>
want to update only a small number of built-in packages.<br>
<br>
I read this as that OPs behaviour what the option intends to do.<br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000a56fec062f0d7635--

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Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> writes:

> "replace with newer versions from the archives" is not what's happening.
> It seems to replace with identical versions, just from the archives.

The issue is that `package-install-upgrade-built-in' uses the phrasing

  If disabled, then =E2=80=98package-install=E2=80=99 will not suggest to r=
eplace a
  built-in package with a (possibly newer) version from a package archive.
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Which is not to say that the behaviour you are describing is not
good...  A related issue here is that package.el has two separate
upgrade procedures (package-upgrade-all and the list-package one) that
cause these kinds of irregularities to pop up.  I have been planning to
rewrite the package list interface to use the same logic as the
commands, but I have to find the time to do that properly :/

>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@poste=
o.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>>
>> >> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
>> >> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500
>> >>
>> >> As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to install
>> >> my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune and
>> >> curate packages.
>> >>
>> >> One thing that surprised me, that I didn't notice in 29.4, is that if
>> >> 'package-install-upgrade-built-in' is non-nil, 'package-list-packages'
>> >> reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *identical
>> >> versions* in the 30.1 tree.  I was expecting upgrades to be actual
>> >> upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.  The reason I didn't see
>> >> this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than ELPA so I
>> >> was happy to take the upgrades.  This does not appear to be a
>> >> regression, just a general bug report.
>> >
>> > Philip, could you please look into this?
>>
>> (emacs) Package Installation says:
>>
>>    If you customize =E2=80=98package-install-upgrade-built-in=E2=80=99 t=
o a non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99
>> value, be very careful when using commands that update many packages at
>> once, like =E2=80=98package-upgrade-all=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98U=E2=80=99=
 in the package menu: those
>> might overwrite built-in packages that you didn't intent to replace with
>> newer versions from the archives.  Don't use these bulk commands if you
>> want to update only a small number of built-in packages.
>>
>> I read this as that OPs behaviour what the option intends to do.
>>

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#76567: 30.1; package-install-upgrade-built-in upgrades built-ins to the same version
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--000000000000e12d9b062f0e7238
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Okay, then this behavior is merely unexpected per "newer" in the
documentation, and it's not a bug, per se.

-Stephane

On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 11:48=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.=
net>
wrote:

> Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > "replace with newer versions from the archives" is not what's happening=
.
> > It seems to replace with identical versions, just from the archives.
>
> The issue is that `package-install-upgrade-built-in' uses the phrasing
>
>   If disabled, then =E2=80=98package-install=E2=80=99 will not suggest to=
 replace a
>   built-in package with a (possibly newer) version from a package archive=
.
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Which is not to say that the behaviour you are describing is not
> good...  A related issue here is that package.el has two separate
> upgrade procedures (package-upgrade-all and the list-package one) that
> cause these kinds of irregularities to pop up.  I have been planning to
> rewrite the package list interface to use the same logic as the
> commands, but I have to find the time to do that properly :/
>
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@pos=
teo.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> >>
> >> >> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> >> >> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500
> >> >>
> >> >> As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a program to
> install
> >> >> my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity to prune
> and
> >> >> curate packages.
> >> >>
> >> >> One thing that surprised me, that I didn't notice in 29.4, is that =
if
> >> >> 'package-install-upgrade-built-in' is non-nil,
> 'package-list-packages'
> >> >> reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *identical
> >> >> versions* in the 30.1 tree.  I was expecting upgrades to be actual
> >> >> upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.  The reason I didn't see
> >> >> this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than ELPA so I
> >> >> was happy to take the upgrades.  This does not appear to be a
> >> >> regression, just a general bug report.
> >> >
> >> > Philip, could you please look into this?
> >>
> >> (emacs) Package Installation says:
> >>
> >>    If you customize =E2=80=98package-install-upgrade-built-in=E2=80=99=
 to a non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99
> >> value, be very careful when using commands that update many packages a=
t
> >> once, like =E2=80=98package-upgrade-all=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98U=E2=80=
=99 in the package menu: those
> >> might overwrite built-in packages that you didn't intent to replace wi=
th
> >> newer versions from the archives.  Don't use these bulk commands if yo=
u
> >> want to update only a small number of built-in packages.
> >>
> >> I read this as that OPs behaviour what the option intends to do.
> >>
>

--000000000000e12d9b062f0e7238
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospac=
e">Okay, then this behavior is merely unexpected per &quot;newer&quot; in t=
he documentation, and it&#39;s not a bug,=C2=A0per se.</div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">-Stephane</div></div><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_at=
tr">On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 11:48=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:philipk@HIDDEN">philipk@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt; w=
rites:<br>
<br>
&gt; &quot;replace with newer versions from the archives&quot; is not what&=
#39;s happening.<br>
&gt; It seems to replace with identical versions, just from the archives.<b=
r>
<br>
The issue is that `package-install-upgrade-built-in&#39; uses the phrasing<=
br>
<br>
=C2=A0 If disabled, then =E2=80=98package-install=E2=80=99 will not suggest=
 to replace a<br>
=C2=A0 built-in package with a (possibly newer) version from a package arch=
ive.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<br>
<br>
Which is not to say that the behaviour you are describing is not<br>
good...=C2=A0 A related issue here is that package.el has two separate<br>
upgrade procedures (package-upgrade-all and the list-package one) that<br>
cause these kinds of irregularities to pop up.=C2=A0 I have been planning t=
o<br>
rewrite the package list interface to use the same logic as the<br>
commands, but I have to find the time to do that properly :/<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 10:39=E2=80=AFAM Philip Kaludercic &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:philipk@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">philipk@HIDDEN</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Eli Zaretskii &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eliz@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank=
">eliz@HIDDEN</a>&gt; writes:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; From: Ship Mints &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shipmints@HIDDEN=
m" target=3D"_blank">shipmints@HIDDEN</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2025 15:35:10 -0500<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; As part of my production upgrade to 30.1, I wrote a progr=
am to install<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; my local ELPA tree from scratch, and take the opportunity=
 to prune and<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; curate packages.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; One thing that surprised me, that I didn&#39;t notice in =
29.4, is that if<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &#39;package-install-upgrade-built-in&#39; is non-nil, &#=
39;package-list-packages&#39;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; reports built-ins needing upgrades from ELPA but to the *=
identical<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; versions* in the 30.1 tree.=C2=A0 I was expecting upgrade=
s to be actual<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; upgrades, not side-grades, as they say.=C2=A0 The reason =
I didn&#39;t see<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; this on 29.4, is that the distro versions were older than=
 ELPA so I<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; was happy to take the upgrades.=C2=A0 This does not appea=
r to be a<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; regression, just a general bug report.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Philip, could you please look into this?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; (emacs) Package Installation says:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If you customize =E2=80=98package-install-upgrade-bui=
lt-in=E2=80=99 to a non-=E2=80=98nil=E2=80=99<br>
&gt;&gt; value, be very careful when using commands that update many packag=
es at<br>
&gt;&gt; once, like =E2=80=98package-upgrade-all=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98U=E2=
=80=99 in the package menu: those<br>
&gt;&gt; might overwrite built-in packages that you didn&#39;t intent to re=
place with<br>
&gt;&gt; newer versions from the archives.=C2=A0 Don&#39;t use these bulk c=
ommands if you<br>
&gt;&gt; want to update only a small number of built-in packages.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I read this as that OPs behaviour what the option intends to do.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div>

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merge 77136 76567
thanks

> From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2025 11:50:10 -0400
> Cc: 77136 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Philip Kaludercic <philipk@HIDDEN>, 
> 	Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 
> 	Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
> 
> David,
> 
> See the discussion here https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=76567

Merging these two bugs.

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> Okay, then this behavior is merely unexpected per "newer" in the
> documentation, and it's not a bug, per se.

I think it should definitely count as a bug because what appears as
a "side-grade" might really be a downgrade because version NN.MM on GNU
ELPA corresponds to the commit where `Version:` was modified to "NN.MM",
whereas the built-in version may still say `Version: NN.MM` but with
various bug fixes and improvements installed since then.

[ The problem is yet more tricky with GNU-devel ELPA, because `Version:
  NN.MM` will lead to packages with version numbers NN.MM.0.DATE.TIME,
  so they will always appear to be strictly greater than the
  built-in version.  But least there, they should indeed be the
  latest&greatest, so at least it should be at worst a side-grade, not
  a downgrade (except for corner cases, like when the creation of the
  GNU-devel tarball fails for some reason, but this should be rare
  enough).  ]


        Stefan