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Subject: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
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In Emacs 30.1 on MacOS Monterey:

I am used to the switching of frames being seamless and instant, with no 
special effects.

At some point, MacOS started doing this horrible sliding doors animation 
when switching frames (window manager windows). The effect happens on 
some other applications, not just Emacs. But I think Emacs may be 
requesting it.

The railwaycat Cocoa port 
(https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport) does not do the 
effect. More importantly, the (latest) Firefox does not do the effect.  
When I press "cmd-`" on both those applications, I get what I expect. No 
effect, no flicker, no delay --- I am instantly in the other window.

To be able to use Emacs 30.1 which has the effect, I went into the MacOS 
control panel and under Accessibility, enabled "Reduce Motion". This 
replaces the 2 second (!!!) sliding doors with a 1/2 second fader 
effect. That is still too slow and intrusive for doing eyeball 
source-compare by switching frames.

I will note that regular Emacs on Linux also has an effect: the window 
manager does (in my case) the card-flipping effect. I don't use Linux 
very much, but it would be nice to get rid of this on that platform as 
well. No idea what Windows does these days, but 15 years ago when I last 
booted that OS, there was no effect when switching Emacs frames.

I have no idea how any of this works, but I speculate that either (a) 
the application requests an effect (perhaps that's the default) to the 
window manager; or (b) Firefox is coded to the older window system, 
which doesn't do these effects. Either way, it is definitely possible to 
control this and make all effects go away. Somehow.

So I am requesting the ability for Emacs to turn the effects off.
For MacOS, ideally for all platforms, ideally a Lisp variable at runtime.
If you wanted to get fancy it could be a frame property.
i can easily imagine setting it on only some frames, as I use frames for 
a variety of purposes.
I can compile Emacs if that's what I have to do, to test a patch or to 
set a compile-time option. I will gladly test this if anyone will hack it.

Thank You for any clues and hacks!

Message sent:

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From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System)
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#77160: Acknowledgement (raising hell (frames))
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Subject: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 5:36=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>=
 wrote:

> In Emacs 30.1 on MacOS Monterey:
>
> I am used to the switching of frames being seamless and instant, with no
> special effects.
>
> At some point, MacOS started doing this horrible sliding doors animation
> when switching frames (window manager windows). The effect happens on
> some other applications, not just Emacs. But I think Emacs may be
> requesting it.
>
> The railwaycat Cocoa port
> (https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport) does not do the
> effect. More importantly, the (latest) Firefox does not do the effect.
> When I press "cmd-`" on both those applications, I get what I expect. No
> effect, no flicker, no delay --- I am instantly in the other window.
>
> To be able to use Emacs 30.1 which has the effect, I went into the MacOS
> control panel and under Accessibility, enabled "Reduce Motion". This
> replaces the 2 second (!!!) sliding doors with a 1/2 second fader
> effect. That is still too slow and intrusive for doing eyeball
> source-compare by switching frames.
>
> I will note that regular Emacs on Linux also has an effect: the window
> manager does (in my case) the card-flipping effect. I don't use Linux
> very much, but it would be nice to get rid of this on that platform as
> well. No idea what Windows does these days, but 15 years ago when I last
> booted that OS, there was no effect when switching Emacs frames.
>
> I have no idea how any of this works, but I speculate that either (a)
> the application requests an effect (perhaps that's the default) to the
> window manager; or (b) Firefox is coded to the older window system,
> which doesn't do these effects. Either way, it is definitely possible to
> control this and make all effects go away. Somehow.
>
> So I am requesting the ability for Emacs to turn the effects off.
> For MacOS, ideally for all platforms, ideally a Lisp variable at runtime.
> If you wanted to get fancy it could be a frame property.
> i can easily imagine setting it on only some frames, as I use frames for
> a variety of purposes.
> I can compile Emacs if that's what I have to do, to test a patch or to
> set a compile-time option. I will gladly test this if anyone will hack it=
.
>
> Thank You for any clues and hacks!
>

I use Monterey with 29.4, 30.1, 31/master and I never see any such
animations (which I consider childish, like emojis).  I also never see such
things on Linux.  The code for Emacs makes no explicit requests that I can
discern.  I'm guessing you have installed something else on your system or
have some other setting that is interfering.

Or...

Are you running "full screen" windows?  I never use those (only "maximized"
in Emacs parlance) so it is possible what you are observing is something
related to switching among full-screen frames.  Disable Mission Control and
Spaces and see what happens.

--000000000000ccedfe0630e15710
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 5:36=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">In Emacs 30.1 on MacOS Monterey:<br>
<br>
I am used to the switching of frames being seamless and instant, with no <b=
r>
special effects.<br>
<br>
At some point, MacOS started doing this horrible sliding doors animation <b=
r>
when switching frames (window manager windows). The effect happens on <br>
some other applications, not just Emacs. But I think Emacs may be <br>
requesting it.<br>
<br>
The railwaycat Cocoa port <br>
(<a href=3D"https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacp=
ort</a>) does not do the <br>
effect. More importantly, the (latest) Firefox does not do the effect.=C2=
=A0 <br>
When I press &quot;cmd-`&quot; on both those applications, I get what I exp=
ect. No <br>
effect, no flicker, no delay --- I am instantly in the other window.<br>
<br>
To be able to use Emacs 30.1 which has the effect, I went into the MacOS <b=
r>
control panel and under Accessibility, enabled &quot;Reduce Motion&quot;. T=
his <br>
replaces the 2 second (!!!) sliding doors with a 1/2 second fader <br>
effect. That is still too slow and intrusive for doing eyeball <br>
source-compare by switching frames.<br>
<br>
I will note that regular Emacs on Linux also has an effect: the window <br>
manager does (in my case) the card-flipping effect. I don&#39;t use Linux <=
br>
very much, but it would be nice to get rid of this on that platform as <br>
well. No idea what Windows does these days, but 15 years ago when I last <b=
r>
booted that OS, there was no effect when switching Emacs frames.<br>
<br>
I have no idea how any of this works, but I speculate that either (a) <br>
the application requests an effect (perhaps that&#39;s the default) to the =
<br>
window manager; or (b) Firefox is coded to the older window system, <br>
which doesn&#39;t do these effects. Either way, it is definitely possible t=
o <br>
control this and make all effects go away. Somehow.<br>
<br>
So I am requesting the ability for Emacs to turn the effects off.<br>
For MacOS, ideally for all platforms, ideally a Lisp variable at runtime.<b=
r>
If you wanted to get fancy it could be a frame property.<br>
i can easily imagine setting it on only some frames, as I use frames for <b=
r>
a variety of purposes.<br>
I can compile Emacs if that&#39;s what I have to do, to test a patch or to =
<br>
set a compile-time option. I will gladly test this if anyone will hack it.<=
br>
<br>
Thank You for any clues and hacks!<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">I use Monterey with 29.=
4, 30.1, 31/master and I never see any such animations (which I consider ch=
ildish, like emojis).=C2=A0 I also never see such things on Linux.=C2=A0 Th=
e code for Emacs makes no explicit requests that I can discern.=C2=A0 I&#39=
;m guessing you have installed something else on your system or have some o=
ther setting that is interfering.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:monospace">Or...</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:monospace">Are you running &quot;full screen&quot; windows?=C2=A0 I ne=
ver use those (only &quot;maximized&quot; in Emacs parlance) so it is possi=
ble what you are observing is something related to switching among full-scr=
een frames.=C2=A0 Disable Mission Control and Spaces and see what happens.<=
/div></div></div>

--000000000000ccedfe0630e15710--

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
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Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.

You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.

When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in 
front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!

:)

Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
So we can't look there for the answer.

I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS, 
since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments.

This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these 
years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, 
and I don't think he's going to update from 29.

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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>=
 wrote:

> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>
> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>
> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>
> :)
>
> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
> So we can't look there for the answer.
>
> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments.
>
> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30,
> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>

Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that stands
out.

Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?

--000000000000c865d70630e1d4f6
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex">Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen fram=
es.<br>
<br>
You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.<br>
<br>
When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in <br>
front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.<br>
So we can&#39;t look there for the answer.<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS, <b=
r>
since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments.<b=
r>
<br>
This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these <br>
years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, <br=
>
and I don&#39;t think he&#39;s going to update from 29.<br></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">Lo=
oking at nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don&#39;t see anything that =
stands out.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospac=
e"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">W=
here did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div></div></div>

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On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>     Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>
>     You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>
>     When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>     front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>
>     :)
>
>     Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>     So we can't look there for the answer.
>
>     I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>     since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>     adjustments.
>
>     This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>     years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to
>     Emacs 30,
>     and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>
>
> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that 
> stands out.
>
> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?

The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to 
windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)

Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
System Description:  macOS 12.7.6

Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
Which supposedly comes from: 
https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164 
AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08

Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60 
Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24

Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these 
builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)


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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN+1Hbpzh6t6brZ3QRwm3V5Du3aB3ynELFpj-O63jHJufjXeFQ@HIDDEN">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace"><span
              style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar
              21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a
                href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" moz-do-not-send="true"
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
              wrote:</span></div>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
            I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.<br>
            <br>
            You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.<br>
            <br>
            When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want
            Emacs in <br>
            front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br>
            <br>
            :)<br>
            <br>
            Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
            turns out.<br>
            So we can't look there for the answer.<br>
            <br>
            I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on
            the OS, <br>
            since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
            adjustments.<br>
            <br>
            This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all
            these <br>
            years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade
            to Emacs 30, <br>
            and I don't think he's going to update from 29.<br>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace">Looking
            at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
            stands out.</div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace">Where
            did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
      windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently
      fixed.)<br>
    </p>
    <p>Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113<br>
      System Description:  macOS 12.7.6<br>
    </p>
    <p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.<br>
      This has the behavior that I want (no effects).<br>
      brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
      Which supposedly comes from:  
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
      GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version
      164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
    <p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://emacsformacosx.com/">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
      (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)<br>
      GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
      appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
    <p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on
      these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:16:08 -0400
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>=
 wrote:

> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
m> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>
>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>
>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>
>> :)
>>
>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>
>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments=
.
>>
>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30,
>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>
>
> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that stand=
s
> out.
>
> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>
> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>
> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
> System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>
> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
> Which supposedly comes from:
> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>
> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>
> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>
It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and find
out more.  You should.

Try this build https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.=
1
and
see if it differs.  This is the one I use when not building my own from
source.

You should also check your macOS settings for full-screen application
behaviors.  It is possible there's something to them that you need to
understand.

--00000000000065e4800630e27146
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div>
    <div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div dir=3D"ltr">
          <div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:A=
rial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar
              21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
              wrote:</span></div>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
            I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.<br>
            <br>
            You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.<br=
>
            <br>
            When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want
            Emacs in <br>
            front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br>
            <br>
            :)<br>
            <br>
            Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
            turns out.<br>
            So we can&#39;t look there for the answer.<br>
            <br>
            I don&#39;t think the correct solution is to change a setting o=
n
            the OS, <br>
            since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
            adjustments.<br>
            <br>
            This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all
            these <br>
            years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade
            to Emacs 30, <br>
            and I don&#39;t think he&#39;s going to update from 29.<br>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Looking
            at nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don&#39;t see anything=
 that
            stands out.</div>
          <div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br>
          </div>
          <div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Where
            did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
      windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently
      fixed.)<br>
    </p>
    <p>Windowing system distributor &#39;Apple&#39;, version 10.3.2113<br>
      System Description:=C2=A0 macOS 12.7.6<br>
    </p>
    <p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.<br>
      This has the behavior that I want (no effects).<br>
      brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
      Which supposedly comes from:=C2=A0=C2=A0
      <a href=3D"https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
      GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version
      164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
    <p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a href=3D"https://emacsformacosx.com/" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
      (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)<br>
      GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
      appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
    <p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on
      these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)</p></div></blo=
ckquote><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">It doesn&#39;t really ta=
ke much effort to click around Caldwell&#39;s site and find out more.=C2=A0=
 You should.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></s=
pan></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">T<span class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">ry this build=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
s://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1">https://github.c=
om/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1</a>=C2=A0and see if it differ=
s.=C2=A0 This is the one I use when not building my own from source.</span>=
</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></span></span></div><div><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:monospace">You should also check your macOS settings for full-sc=
reen application behaviors.=C2=A0 It is possible there&#39;s something to t=
hem that you need to understand.</span></span></div></div></div>

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On Mär 21 2025, Christopher Stacy wrote:

> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)

system-configuration-options

-- 
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:25=E2=80=AFPM Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN=
rg>
wrote:

> On M=C3=A4r 21 2025, Christopher Stacy wrote:
>
> > Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
> > builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>
> system-configuration-options
>

Right.  And he needs to know what third-party patches were applied by each
builder that aren't reported by system-configuration-options.  Why he needs
to know more about the builds because core Emacs folk won't be of that much
help if a patch is the culprit.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:25=E2=80=AFPM Andreas Schwab &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:schwab@HIDDEN">schwab@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On M=C3=A4r 21 2025, Christopher Stacy wrote:<=
br>
<br>
&gt; Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these<=
br>
&gt; builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)<br>
<br>
system-configuration-options<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">Right.=C2=A0 And he needs to =
know what third-party patches were applied by each builder that aren&#39;t =
reported by system-configuration-options.=C2=A0 Why he needs to know more a=
bout the builds because core Emacs folk won&#39;t be of that much help if a=
 patch is the culprit.</div></div></div>

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On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>     On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>     On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
>>     <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>>         Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>
>>         You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>
>>         When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want
>>         Emacs in
>>         front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>
>>         :)
>>
>>         Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
>>         turns out.
>>         So we can't look there for the answer.
>>
>>         I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on
>>         the OS,
>>         since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>>         adjustments.
>>
>>         This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all
>>         these
>>         years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to
>>         Emacs 30,
>>         and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>
>>
>>     Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything
>>     that stands out.
>>
>>     Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>
>     The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>     windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>
>     Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>     System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>
>     Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>     This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>     brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>     Which supposedly comes from:
>     https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>     GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version
>     164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>
>     Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>     (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>     GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
>     appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>
>     Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on
>     these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>
> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and 
> find out more.  You should.

What is a "Caldwell"?


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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN+1HbqWstW0LichhqsOWG0bx89A8yiUBih9kFb=LvsUEjyG5g@HIDDEN">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace"><span
              style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar
              21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a
                href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" moz-do-not-send="true"
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
              wrote:</span></div>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div style="font-family:monospace"><span
                        style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On
                        Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
                        &lt;<a href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                        wrote:</span></div>
                  </div>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
                      I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen
                      frames.<br>
                      <br>
                      You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively,
                      for Emacs.<br>
                      <br>
                      When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I
                      just want Emacs in <br>
                      front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br>
                      <br>
                      :)<br>
                      <br>
                      Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen
                      mode, too, turns out.<br>
                      So we can't look there for the answer.<br>
                      <br>
                      I don't think the correct solution is to change a
                      setting on the OS, <br>
                      since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing
                      without external adjustments.<br>
                      <br>
                      This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked
                      Emacs all these <br>
                      years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
                      upgrade to Emacs 30, <br>
                      and I don't think he's going to update from 29.<br>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:monospace">Looking at
                      nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see
                      anything that stands out.</div>
                    <div style="font-family:monospace"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:monospace">Where did you get
                      your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely
                unrelated to windowing. (Just other things that were
                broken and recently fixed.)<br>
              </p>
              <p>Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113<br>
                System Description:  macOS 12.7.6<br>
              </p>
              <p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.<br>
                This has the behavior that I want (no effects).<br>
                brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
                Which supposedly comes from:   <a
href="https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                  class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
                GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0,
                Carbon Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
              <p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a
                  href="https://emacsformacosx.com/" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
                (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has
                malware.)<br>
                GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
                appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of
                2025-02-24</p>
              <p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were
                used on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will
                tell me?)</p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><span style="font-family:monospace">It doesn't really
              take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and find
              out more.  You should.</span></div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>What is a "<span style="font-family:monospace">Caldwell"?</span></p>
    <p><span style="font-family:monospace"><br>
      </span></p>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:32:01 -0400
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:

>
> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
m> wrote:
>
>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
om>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>
>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>
>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>
>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustment=
s.
>>>
>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>
>>
>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
>> stands out.
>>
>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>
>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>>
>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>> System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>
>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>> Which supposedly comes from:
>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
>> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>
>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
>> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>
>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
>> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>
> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
> find out more.  You should.
>
> What is a "Caldwell"?
>

You'll see.

>

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<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div></div><div>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div dir=3D"ltr">
          <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar
              21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
              wrote:</span></div>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                <div dir=3D"ltr">
                  <div dir=3D"ltr">
                    <div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On
                        Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher St=
acy
                        &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_b=
lank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                        wrote:</span></div>
                  </div>
                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
                    <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
                      I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen
                      frames.<br>
                      <br>
                      You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively,
                      for Emacs.<br>
                      <br>
                      When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I
                      just want Emacs in <br>
                      front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br=
>
                      <br>
                      :)<br>
                      <br>
                      Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen
                      mode, too, turns out.<br>
                      So we can&#39;t look there for the answer.<br>
                      <br>
                      I don&#39;t think the correct solution is to change a
                      setting on the OS, <br>
                      since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing
                      without external adjustments.<br>
                      <br>
                      This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked
                      Emacs all these <br>
                      years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
                      upgrade to Emacs 30, <br>
                      and I don&#39;t think he&#39;s going to update from 2=
9.<br>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Looking at
                      nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don&#39;t see
                      anything that stands out.</div>
                    <div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Where did you get
                      your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely
                unrelated to windowing. (Just other things that were
                broken and recently fixed.)<br>
              </p>
              <p>Windowing system distributor &#39;Apple&#39;, version 10.3=
.2113<br>
                System Description:=C2=A0 macOS 12.7.6<br>
              </p>
              <p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.<br>
                This has the behavior that I want (no effects).<br>
                brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
                Which supposedly comes from:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https:/=
/github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" target=3D"_blank">https://git=
hub.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
                GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0,
                Carbon Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
              <p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a href=3D"https://emacsformacosx.c=
om/" target=3D"_blank">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
                (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has
                malware.)<br>
                GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
                appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of
                2025-02-24</p>
              <p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were
                used on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will
                tell me?)</p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">It doesn&#39;t really
              take much effort to click around Caldwell&#39;s site and find
              out more.=C2=A0 You should.</span></div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div><div><p>What is a &quot;<span style=3D"font-family:monospace">Cal=
dwell&quot;?</span></p></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">You&#39;ll see.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
><p dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:monospace"></span></p>
  </div>

</blockquote></div></div>

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On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>
>     On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>     On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy
>>     <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>>         On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>         On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
>>>         <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>
>>>             You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>
>>>             When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just
>>>             want Emacs in
>>>             front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>
>>>             :)
>>>
>>>             Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
>>>             turns out.
>>>             So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>
>>>             I don't think the correct solution is to change a
>>>             setting on the OS,
>>>             since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without
>>>             external adjustments.
>>>
>>>             This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs
>>>             all these
>>>             years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
>>>             upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>>             and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>
>>>
>>>         Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see
>>>         anything that stands out.
>>>
>>>         Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>
>>         The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated
>>         to windowing. (Just other things that were broken and
>>         recently fixed.)
>>
>>         Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>         System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>
>>         Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>         This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>         brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>         Which supposedly comes from:
>>         https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>         GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon
>>         Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>
>>         Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>         (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>>         GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
>>         appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>
>>         Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used
>>         on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>
>>     It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's
>>     site and find out more.  You should.
>
>     What is a "Caldwell"?
>
>
> You'll see.

Not if I don't have the URL.
I have no idea what you're talking about.


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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN+1Hbrpb+ebECKO1NGMVZ+Xp2C7qAqrZfaP8PMLWktjSqTvFg@HIDDEN">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
            19:29 Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
              moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <p><br>
              </p>
              <div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div class="gmail_default"
                      style="font-family:monospace"><span
                        style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On
                        Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy
                        &lt;<a href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                        wrote:</span></div>
                  </div>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                      <div>
                        <div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div dir="ltr">
                              <div style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
                                  6:16 PM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:</span></div>
                            </div>
                            <div class="gmail_quote">
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
                                I forgot to say: This is all about
                                fullscreen frames.<br>
                                <br>
                                You never use them. I use fullscreen
                                exclusively, for Emacs.<br>
                                <br>
                                When I am in Emacs (which is all day
                                every day), I just want Emacs in <br>
                                front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or
                                anything!<br>
                                <br>
                                :)<br>
                                <br>
                                Firefox does the stupid effect in full
                                screen mode, too, turns out.<br>
                                So we can't look there for the answer.<br>
                                <br>
                                I don't think the correct solution is to
                                change a setting on the OS, <br>
                                since railwaycat Emacs does the right
                                thing without external adjustments.<br>
                                <br>
                                This bug is in fact what has kept me on
                                his hacked Emacs all these <br>
                                years. But due to other bugs I have been
                                forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, <br>
                                and I don't think he's going to update
                                from 29.<br>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div style="font-family:monospace">Looking
                                at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I
                                don't see anything that stands out.</div>
                              <div style="font-family:monospace"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div style="font-family:monospace">Where
                                did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are
                          entirely unrelated to windowing. (Just other
                          things that were broken and recently fixed.)<br>
                        </p>
                        <p>Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version
                          10.3.2113<br>
                          System Description:  macOS 12.7.6<br>
                        </p>
                        <p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from
                          Homebrew.<br>
                          This has the behavior that I want (no
                          effects).<br>
                          brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
                          Which supposedly comes from:   <a
href="https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
                          GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1,
                          x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
                          AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
                        <p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a
                            href="https://emacsformacosx.com/"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
                          (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if
                          it has malware.)<br>
                          GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1,
                          x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
                          Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
                        <p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler
                          options were used on these builds? (Maybe some
                          emacs command will tell me?)</p>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div><span style="font-family:monospace">It doesn't
                        really take much effort to click around
                        Caldwell's site and find out more.  You should.</span></div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p>What is a "<span style="font-family:monospace">Caldwell"?</span></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">You'll see. <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Not if I don't have the URL.<br>
      I have no idea what you're talking about.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:48:22 -0400
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:

>
> On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
om>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@dtpq.=
com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>>
>>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>>
>>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>>
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>>>> adjustments.
>>>>
>>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30=
,
>>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
>>> stands out.
>>>
>>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>>
>>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>>> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>>>
>>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>> System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>>
>>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>> Which supposedly comes from:
>>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
>>> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>>
>>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
>>> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>>
>>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
>>> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>>
>> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
>> find out more.  You should.
>>
>> What is a "Caldwell"?
>>
>
> You'll see.
>
> Not if I don't have the URL.
> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>

You gave it to us
https://emacsformacosx.com/

>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div></div><div>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div>On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
          <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
            19:29 Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" =
target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <p><br>
              </p>
              <div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                <div dir=3D"ltr">
                  <div dir=3D"ltr">
                    <div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monos=
pace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On
                        Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher St=
acy
                        &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_b=
lank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                        wrote:</span></div>
                  </div>
                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
                    <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                      <div>
                        <div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                          <div dir=3D"ltr">
                            <div dir=3D"ltr">
                              <div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
                                  6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:</span></div>
                            </div>
                            <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
                              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">Yes,
                                I forgot to say: This is all about
                                fullscreen frames.<br>
                                <br>
                                You never use them. I use fullscreen
                                exclusively, for Emacs.<br>
                                <br>
                                When I am in Emacs (which is all day
                                every day), I just want Emacs in <br>
                                front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or
                                anything!<br>
                                <br>
                                :)<br>
                                <br>
                                Firefox does the stupid effect in full
                                screen mode, too, turns out.<br>
                                So we can&#39;t look there for the answer.<=
br>
                                <br>
                                I don&#39;t think the correct solution is t=
o
                                change a setting on the OS, <br>
                                since railwaycat Emacs does the right
                                thing without external adjustments.<br>
                                <br>
                                This bug is in fact what has kept me on
                                his hacked Emacs all these <br>
                                years. But due to other bugs I have been
                                forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, <br>
                                and I don&#39;t think he&#39;s going to upd=
ate
                                from 29.<br>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Looking
                                at nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I
                                don&#39;t see anything that stands out.</di=
v>
                              <div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Where
                                did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div=
>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are
                          entirely unrelated to windowing. (Just other
                          things that were broken and recently fixed.)<br>
                        </p>
                        <p>Windowing system distributor &#39;Apple&#39;, ve=
rsion
                          10.3.2113<br>
                          System Description:=C2=A0 macOS 12.7.6<br>
                        </p>
                        <p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from
                          Homebrew.<br>
                          This has the behavior that I want (no
                          effects).<br>
                          brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
                          Which supposedly comes from:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=
=3D"https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" target=3D"_blank">=
https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
                          GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1,
                          x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
                          AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
                        <p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a href=3D"https://emacsf=
ormacosx.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
                          (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if
                          it has malware.)<br>
                          GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1,
                          x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
                          Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p=
>
                        <p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler
                          options were used on these builds? (Maybe some
                          emacs command will tell me?)</p>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">It doesn&#39=
;t
                        really take much effort to click around
                        Caldwell&#39;s site and find out more.=C2=A0 You sh=
ould.</span></div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p>What is a &quot;<span style=3D"font-family:monospace">Cald=
well&quot;?</span></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir=3D"auto">You&#39;ll see. <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    </div><div><p>Not if I don&#39;t have the URL.<br>
      I have no idea what you&#39;re talking about.</p></div></blockquote><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You gave it to us<div><a href=
=3D"https://emacsformacosx.com/">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a></div></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><p dir=3D"auto"></p>
  </div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000082b59b0630e2e47f--

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On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>
>     On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>>     On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
>>     wrote:
>>
>>
>>         On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>         On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy
>>>         <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>>
>>>             On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>>             On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
>>>>             <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                 Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen
>>>>                 frames.
>>>>
>>>>                 You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively,
>>>>                 for Emacs.
>>>>
>>>>                 When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I
>>>>                 just want Emacs in
>>>>                 front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>>
>>>>                 :)
>>>>
>>>>                 Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode,
>>>>                 too, turns out.
>>>>                 So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>>
>>>>                 I don't think the correct solution is to change a
>>>>                 setting on the OS,
>>>>                 since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without
>>>>                 external adjustments.
>>>>
>>>>                 This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked
>>>>                 Emacs all these
>>>>                 years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
>>>>                 upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>>>                 and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>             Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see
>>>>             anything that stands out.
>>>>
>>>>             Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>>
>>>             The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely
>>>             unrelated to windowing. (Just other things that were
>>>             broken and recently fixed.)
>>>
>>>             Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>>             System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>>
>>>             Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>>             This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>>             brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>>             Which supposedly comes from:
>>>             https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>>             GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0,
>>>             Carbon Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>>
>>>             Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>>             (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has
>>>             malware.)
>>>             GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
>>>             appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of
>>>             2025-02-24
>>>
>>>             Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were
>>>             used on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will
>>>             tell me?)
>>>
>>>         It doesn't really take much effort to click around
>>>         Caldwell's site and find out more.  You should.
>>
>>         What is a "Caldwell"?
>>
>>
>>     You'll see.
>
>     Not if I don't have the URL.
>     I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
>
> You gave it to us
> https://emacsformacosx.com/

There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I am 
reporting here.


--------------v4Vh5bpCevL7us5LmyEyLoFZ
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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN+1HbqKK6dhUhx=-FvUi4mwS7x8+L+0K3KT2+OU8jjfheEm6Q@HIDDEN">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
            19:44 Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
              moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <p><br>
              </p>
              <div>On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div><br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21,
                      2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy &lt;<a
                        href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                      <div>
                        <p><br>
                        </p>
                        <div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type="cite">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div dir="ltr">
                              <div class="gmail_default"
                                style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
                                  7:11 PM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a
                                    href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:</span></div>
                            </div>
                            <div class="gmail_quote">
                              <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                <div>
                                  <div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints
                                    wrote:<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote type="cite">
                                    <div dir="ltr">
                                      <div dir="ltr">
                                        <div
                                          style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
                                            6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
                                            &lt;<a
href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
                                          I forgot to say: This is all
                                          about fullscreen frames.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          You never use them. I use
                                          fullscreen exclusively, for
                                          Emacs.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          When I am in Emacs (which is
                                          all day every day), I just
                                          want Emacs in <br>
                                          front of me. No menu bars,
                                          titlebars. or anything!<br>
                                          <br>
                                          :)<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Firefox does the stupid effect
                                          in full screen mode, too,
                                          turns out.<br>
                                          So we can't look there for the
                                          answer.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          I don't think the correct
                                          solution is to change a
                                          setting on the OS, <br>
                                          since railwaycat Emacs does
                                          the right thing without
                                          external adjustments.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          This bug is in fact what has
                                          kept me on his hacked Emacs
                                          all these <br>
                                          years. But due to other bugs I
                                          have been forced to upgrade to
                                          Emacs 30, <br>
                                          and I don't think he's going
                                          to update from 29.<br>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div
                                          style="font-family:monospace">Looking
                                          at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs.
                                          30.1 I don't see anything that
                                          stands out.</div>
                                        <div
                                          style="font-family:monospace"><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div
                                          style="font-family:monospace">Where
                                          did you get your 29.4 and 30.1
                                          builds?</div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to
                                    30.1 are entirely unrelated to
                                    windowing. (Just other things that
                                    were broken and recently fixed.)<br>
                                  </p>
                                  <p>Windowing system distributor
                                    'Apple', version 10.3.2113<br>
                                    System Description:  macOS 12.7.6<br>
                                  </p>
                                  <p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version
                                    from Homebrew.<br>
                                    This has the behavior that I want
                                    (no effects).<br>
                                    brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
                                    Which supposedly comes from:   <a
href="https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
                                    GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1,
                                    x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon
                                    Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of
                                    2023-08-08</p>
                                  <p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a
                                      href="https://emacsformacosx.com/"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
                                    (I wish I knew who that entity is. I
                                    wonder if it has malware.)<br>
                                    GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1,
                                    x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
                                    appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6
                                    (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
                                  <p>Is there an easy way to tell what
                                    compiler options were used on these
                                    builds? (Maybe some emacs command
                                    will tell me?)</p>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><span style="font-family:monospace">It
                                  doesn't really take much effort to
                                  click around Caldwell's site and find
                                  out more.  You should.</span></div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p>What is a "<span
                            style="font-family:monospace">Caldwell"?</span></p>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div dir="auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="auto">You'll see. <br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p>Not if I don't have the URL.<br>
                I have no idea what you're talking about.</p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">You gave it to us
            <div><a href="https://emacsformacosx.com/"
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a></div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I
      am reporting here.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

--------------v4Vh5bpCevL7us5LmyEyLoFZ--

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 06:56:11 -0400
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On Sat, Mar 22, 2025 at 12:42=E2=80=AFAM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
> wrote:

>
> On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@dtpq.=
com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@dtpq=
.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>>>
>>>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>>>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>>>
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>>>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>>>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>>>>> adjustments.
>>>>>
>>>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>>>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs
>>>>> 30,
>>>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
>>>> stands out.
>>>>
>>>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>>>
>>>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>>>> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>>>>
>>>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>>> System Description:  macOS 12.7.6
>>>>
>>>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>>> Which supposedly comes from:
>>>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
>>>> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>>>
>>>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>>>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
>>>> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>>>
>>>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
>>>> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>>>
>>> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
>>> find out more.  You should.
>>>
>>> What is a "Caldwell"?
>>>
>>
>> You'll see.
>>
>> Not if I don't have the URL.
>> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>>
>
> You gave it to us
> https://emacsformacosx.com/
>
> There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I am
> reporting here.
>
Christopher, at this point, it should be apparent that if you are not using
vanilla GNU Emacs, and have chosen a build you haven't yourself made, that
you need to dig into that build yourself--it's your responsibility and
especially if you are concerned about "supply-chain" issues.  If you
"clicked around" the emacsformacosx.com site as I suggested rather than
just reading it, you would have wound up here
https://github.com/caldwell/build-emacs and you can see for yourself what's
going on with the build you chose.

Did you try the alternative build
https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1 I suggested
for comparison?  That's the build I use when not compiling my own.  Both
Caldwell's and jimeh's builds apply patches that are not in the supported
GNU Emacs source.

Until you put in a little more work on your own, it's not clear this is a
bug in GNU Emacs.  I also suggest that you attempt to replicate the
behavior when running "emacs -Q".  You cannot do that from the macOS
launcher so run the binary directly from its location.

-Stephane

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Sat, Mar 22, 2025 at 12:42=E2=80=AFAM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>

 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div>On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
          <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
            19:44 Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" =
target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <p><br>
              </p>
              <div>On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                <div><br>
                  <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
                    <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21,
                      2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                      wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                      <div>
                        <p><br>
                        </p>
                        <div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                          <div dir=3D"ltr">
                            <div dir=3D"ltr">
                              <div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
                                  7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:</span></div>
                            </div>
                            <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
                              <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">
                                <div>
                                  <div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints
                                    wrote:<br>
                                  </div>
                                  <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                                    <div dir=3D"ltr">
                                      <div dir=3D"ltr">
                                        <div style=3D"font-family:monospace=
"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 20=
25 at
                                            6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Sta=
cy
                                            &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@dt=
pq.com" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div class=3D"gmail_quote">
                                        <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex">Yes,
                                          I forgot to say: This is all
                                          about fullscreen frames.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          You never use them. I use
                                          fullscreen exclusively, for
                                          Emacs.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          When I am in Emacs (which is
                                          all day every day), I just
                                          want Emacs in <br>
                                          front of me. No menu bars,
                                          titlebars. or anything!<br>
                                          <br>
                                          :)<br>
                                          <br>
                                          Firefox does the stupid effect
                                          in full screen mode, too,
                                          turns out.<br>
                                          So we can&#39;t look there for th=
e
                                          answer.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          I don&#39;t think the correct
                                          solution is to change a
                                          setting on the OS, <br>
                                          since railwaycat Emacs does
                                          the right thing without
                                          external adjustments.<br>
                                          <br>
                                          This bug is in fact what has
                                          kept me on his hacked Emacs
                                          all these <br>
                                          years. But due to other bugs I
                                          have been forced to upgrade to
                                          Emacs 30, <br>
                                          and I don&#39;t think he&#39;s go=
ing
                                          to update from 29.<br>
                                        </blockquote>
                                        <div><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div style=3D"font-family:monospace=
">Looking
                                          at nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs.
                                          30.1 I don&#39;t see anything tha=
t
                                          stands out.</div>
                                        <div style=3D"font-family:monospace=
"><br>
                                        </div>
                                        <div style=3D"font-family:monospace=
">Where
                                          did you get your 29.4 and 30.1
                                          builds?</div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </blockquote>
                                  <p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to
                                    30.1 are entirely unrelated to
                                    windowing. (Just other things that
                                    were broken and recently fixed.)<br>
                                  </p>
                                  <p>Windowing system distributor
                                    &#39;Apple&#39;, version 10.3.2113<br>
                                    System Description:=C2=A0 macOS 12.7.6<=
br>
                                  </p>
                                  <p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version
                                    from Homebrew.<br>
                                    This has the behavior that I want
                                    (no effects).<br>
                                    brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
                                    Which supposedly comes from:=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 <a href=3D"https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" target=
=3D"_blank">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
                                    GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1,
                                    x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon
                                    Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of
                                    2023-08-08</p>
                                  <p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a href=3D"http=
s://emacsformacosx.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><=
br>
                                    (I wish I knew who that entity is. I
                                    wonder if it has malware.)<br>
                                    GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1,
                                    x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
                                    appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6
                                    (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
                                  <p>Is there an easy way to tell what
                                    compiler options were used on these
                                    builds? (Maybe some emacs command
                                    will tell me?)</p>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                              <div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">It
                                  doesn&#39;t really take much effort to
                                  click around Caldwell&#39;s site and find
                                  out more.=C2=A0 You should.</span></div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <p>What is a &quot;<span style=3D"font-family:monos=
pace">Caldwell&quot;?</span></p>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                    <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir=3D"auto">You&#39;ll see. <br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p>Not if I don&#39;t have the URL.<br>
                I have no idea what you&#39;re talking about.</p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div dir=3D"auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir=3D"auto">You gave it to us
            <div><a href=3D"https://emacsformacosx.com/" target=3D"_blank">=
https://emacsformacosx.com/</a></div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I
      am reporting here.</p></div></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-family:monospace">Christopher, at this point, it should be a=
pparent that if you are not using vanilla GNU Emacs, and have chosen a buil=
d you haven&#39;t yourself made, that you need to dig into that build yours=
elf--it&#39;s your responsibility and especially if you are concerned about=
 &quot;supply-chain&quot; issues.=C2=A0 If you &quot;clicked around&quot; t=
he <a href=3D"http://emacsformacosx.com">emacsformacosx.com</a> site as I s=
uggested rather than just reading it, you would have wound up here=C2=A0<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/caldwell/build-emacs">https://github.com/caldwel=
l/build-emacs</a>=C2=A0and you can see for yourself what&#39;s going on wit=
h the build you chose.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:m=
onospace">Did you try the alternative build=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.=
com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1">https://github.com/jimeh/em=
acs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1</a>=C2=A0I suggested for comparison?=C2=
=A0 That&#39;s the build I use when not compiling my own.=C2=A0 Both Caldwe=
ll&#39;s and jimeh&#39;s=C2=A0builds apply patches that are not in the supp=
orted GNU Emacs source.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
monospace">Until you put in a little more work on your own, it&#39;s not cl=
ear this is a bug in GNU Emacs.=C2=A0 I also suggest that you attempt to re=
plicate the behavior when running &quot;emacs -Q&quot;.=C2=A0 You cannot do=
 that from the macOS launcher so run the binary directly from its location.=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">-Stephane</d=
iv></div></div>

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Subject: control message for bug #77160
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