Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@HIDDEN>
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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 06:56:11 -0400
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Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
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On Sat, Mar 22, 2025 at 12:42=E2=80=AFAM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
> wrote:
>
> On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@dtpq.=
com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@dtpq=
.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>>>
>>>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>>>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>>>
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>>>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>>>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>>>>> adjustments.
>>>>>
>>>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>>>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs
>>>>> 30,
>>>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
>>>> stands out.
>>>>
>>>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>>>
>>>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>>>> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>>>>
>>>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>>> System Description: macOS 12.7.6
>>>>
>>>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>>> Which supposedly comes from:
>>>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
>>>> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>>>
>>>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>>>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
>>>> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>>>
>>>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
>>>> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>>>
>>> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
>>> find out more. You should.
>>>
>>> What is a "Caldwell"?
>>>
>>
>> You'll see.
>>
>> Not if I don't have the URL.
>> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>>
>
> You gave it to us
> https://emacsformacosx.com/
>
> There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I am
> reporting here.
>
Christopher, at this point, it should be apparent that if you are not using
vanilla GNU Emacs, and have chosen a build you haven't yourself made, that
you need to dig into that build yourself--it's your responsibility and
especially if you are concerned about "supply-chain" issues. If you
"clicked around" the emacsformacosx.com site as I suggested rather than
just reading it, you would have wound up here
https://github.com/caldwell/build-emacs and you can see for yourself what's
going on with the build you chose.
Did you try the alternative build
https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1 I suggested
for comparison? That's the build I use when not compiling my own. Both
Caldwell's and jimeh's builds apply patches that are not in the supported
GNU Emacs source.
Until you put in a little more work on your own, it's not clear this is a
bug in GNU Emacs. I also suggest that you attempt to replicate the
behavior when running "emacs -Q". You cannot do that from the macOS
launcher so run the binary directly from its location.
-Stephane
--000000000000bae5410630ec381d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Sat, Mar 22, 2025 at 12:42=E2=80=AFAM Christopher Stacy <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
=20
=20
=20
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
19:44 Christopher Stacy <<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" =
target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21,
2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <<a href=3D"mailto=
:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <<a =
href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">
<div>
<div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace=
"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 20=
25 at
6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Sta=
cy
<<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@dt=
pq.com" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex">Yes,
I forgot to say: This is all
about fullscreen frames.<br>
<br>
You never use them. I use
fullscreen exclusively, for
Emacs.<br>
<br>
When I am in Emacs (which is
all day every day), I just
want Emacs in <br>
front of me. No menu bars,
titlebars. or anything!<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Firefox does the stupid effect
in full screen mode, too,
turns out.<br>
So we can't look there for th=
e
answer.<br>
<br>
I don't think the correct
solution is to change a
setting on the OS, <br>
since railwaycat Emacs does
the right thing without
external adjustments.<br>
<br>
This bug is in fact what has
kept me on his hacked Emacs
all these <br>
years. But due to other bugs I
have been forced to upgrade to
Emacs 30, <br>
and I don't think he's go=
ing
to update from 29.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace=
">Looking
at nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs.
30.1 I don't see anything tha=
t
stands out.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace=
"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace=
">Where
did you get your 29.4 and 30.1
builds?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to
30.1 are entirely unrelated to
windowing. (Just other things that
were broken and recently fixed.)<br>
</p>
<p>Windowing system distributor
'Apple', version 10.3.2113<br>
System Description:=C2=A0 macOS 12.7.6<=
br>
</p>
<p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version
from Homebrew.<br>
This has the behavior that I want
(no effects).<br>
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
Which supposedly comes from:=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 <a href=3D"https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" target=
=3D"_blank">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1,
x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon
Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of
2023-08-08</p>
<p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a href=3D"http=
s://emacsformacosx.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><=
br>
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I
wonder if it has malware.)<br>
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1,
x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6
(Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
<p>Is there an easy way to tell what
compiler options were used on these
builds? (Maybe some emacs command
will tell me?)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">It
doesn't really take much effort to
click around Caldwell's site and find
out more.=C2=A0 You should.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p>What is a "<span style=3D"font-family:monos=
pace">Caldwell"?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">You'll see. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p>Not if I don't have the URL.<br>
I have no idea what you're talking about.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">You gave it to us
<div><a href=3D"https://emacsformacosx.com/" target=3D"_blank">=
https://emacsformacosx.com/</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I
am reporting here.</p></div></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
style=3D"font-family:monospace">Christopher, at this point, it should be a=
pparent that if you are not using vanilla GNU Emacs, and have chosen a buil=
d you haven't yourself made, that you need to dig into that build yours=
elf--it's your responsibility and especially if you are concerned about=
"supply-chain" issues.=C2=A0 If you "clicked around" t=
he <a href=3D"http://emacsformacosx.com">emacsformacosx.com</a> site as I s=
uggested rather than just reading it, you would have wound up here=C2=A0<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/caldwell/build-emacs">https://github.com/caldwel=
l/build-emacs</a>=C2=A0and you can see for yourself what's going on wit=
h the build you chose.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:m=
onospace">Did you try the alternative build=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.=
com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1">https://github.com/jimeh/em=
acs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1</a>=C2=A0I suggested for comparison?=C2=
=A0 That's the build I use when not compiling my own.=C2=A0 Both Caldwe=
ll's and jimeh's=C2=A0builds apply patches that are not in the supp=
orted GNU Emacs source.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
monospace">Until you put in a little more work on your own, it's not cl=
ear this is a bug in GNU Emacs.=C2=A0 I also suggest that you attempt to re=
plicate the behavior when running "emacs -Q".=C2=A0 You cannot do=
that from the macOS launcher so run the binary directly from its location.=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">-Stephane</d=
iv></div></div>
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Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:42:29 -0400
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Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
To: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
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--------------v4Vh5bpCevL7us5LmyEyLoFZ
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On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>
> On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy
>>> <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
>>>> <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen
>>>> frames.
>>>>
>>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively,
>>>> for Emacs.
>>>>
>>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I
>>>> just want Emacs in
>>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>>
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode,
>>>> too, turns out.
>>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a
>>>> setting on the OS,
>>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without
>>>> external adjustments.
>>>>
>>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked
>>>> Emacs all these
>>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
>>>> upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see
>>>> anything that stands out.
>>>>
>>>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>>
>>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely
>>> unrelated to windowing. (Just other things that were
>>> broken and recently fixed.)
>>>
>>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>> System Description: macOS 12.7.6
>>>
>>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>> Which supposedly comes from:
>>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0,
>>> Carbon Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>>
>>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has
>>> malware.)
>>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
>>> appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of
>>> 2025-02-24
>>>
>>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were
>>> used on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will
>>> tell me?)
>>>
>>> It doesn't really take much effort to click around
>>> Caldwell's site and find out more. You should.
>>
>> What is a "Caldwell"?
>>
>>
>> You'll see.
>
> Not if I don't have the URL.
> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
>
> You gave it to us
> https://emacsformacosx.com/
There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I am
reporting here.
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<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/25 7:48 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN+1HbqKK6dhUhx=-FvUi4mwS7x8+L+0K3KT2+OU8jjfheEm6Q@HIDDEN">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
19:44 Christopher Stacy <<a href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21,
2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <<a
href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
7:11 PM Christopher Stacy <<a
href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
<<a
href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
I forgot to say: This is all
about fullscreen frames.<br>
<br>
You never use them. I use
fullscreen exclusively, for
Emacs.<br>
<br>
When I am in Emacs (which is
all day every day), I just
want Emacs in <br>
front of me. No menu bars,
titlebars. or anything!<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Firefox does the stupid effect
in full screen mode, too,
turns out.<br>
So we can't look there for the
answer.<br>
<br>
I don't think the correct
solution is to change a
setting on the OS, <br>
since railwaycat Emacs does
the right thing without
external adjustments.<br>
<br>
This bug is in fact what has
kept me on his hacked Emacs
all these <br>
years. But due to other bugs I
have been forced to upgrade to
Emacs 30, <br>
and I don't think he's going
to update from 29.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace">Looking
at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs.
30.1 I don't see anything that
stands out.</div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:monospace">Where
did you get your 29.4 and 30.1
builds?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to
30.1 are entirely unrelated to
windowing. (Just other things that
were broken and recently fixed.)<br>
</p>
<p>Windowing system distributor
'Apple', version 10.3.2113<br>
System Description: macOS 12.7.6<br>
</p>
<p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version
from Homebrew.<br>
This has the behavior that I want
(no effects).<br>
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
Which supposedly comes from: <a
href="https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1,
x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon
Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of
2023-08-08</p>
<p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a
href="https://emacsformacosx.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I
wonder if it has malware.)<br>
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1,
x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6
(Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
<p>Is there an easy way to tell what
compiler options were used on these
builds? (Maybe some emacs command
will tell me?)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span style="font-family:monospace">It
doesn't really take much effort to
click around Caldwell's site and find
out more. You should.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p>What is a "<span
style="font-family:monospace">Caldwell"?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">You'll see. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p>Not if I don't have the URL.<br>
I have no idea what you're talking about.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">You gave it to us
<div><a href="https://emacsformacosx.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>There is nothing on that web site pertaining to the Emacs bug I
am reporting here.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</body>
</html>
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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:48:22 -0400
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Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
om>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@dtpq.=
com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>>
>>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>>
>>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>>
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>>>> adjustments.
>>>>
>>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30=
,
>>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
>>> stands out.
>>>
>>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>>
>>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>>> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>>>
>>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>>> System Description: macOS 12.7.6
>>>
>>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>>> Which supposedly comes from:
>>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
>>> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>>
>>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
>>> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>>
>>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
>>> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>>
>> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
>> find out more. You should.
>>
>> What is a "Caldwell"?
>>
>
> You'll see.
>
> Not if I don't have the URL.
> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
You gave it to us
https://emacsformacosx.com/
>
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<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:44 Christopher Stacy <<a=
href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
=20
=20
=20
<div></div><div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
19:29 Christopher Stacy <<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" =
target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monos=
pace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On
Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher St=
acy
<<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_b=
lank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <<a =
href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex">Yes,
I forgot to say: This is all about
fullscreen frames.<br>
<br>
You never use them. I use fullscreen
exclusively, for Emacs.<br>
<br>
When I am in Emacs (which is all day
every day), I just want Emacs in <br>
front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or
anything!<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Firefox does the stupid effect in full
screen mode, too, turns out.<br>
So we can't look there for the answer.<=
br>
<br>
I don't think the correct solution is t=
o
change a setting on the OS, <br>
since railwaycat Emacs does the right
thing without external adjustments.<br>
<br>
This bug is in fact what has kept me on
his hacked Emacs all these <br>
years. But due to other bugs I have been
forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, <br>
and I don't think he's going to upd=
ate
from 29.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Looking
at nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I
don't see anything that stands out.</di=
v>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Where
did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div=
>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are
entirely unrelated to windowing. (Just other
things that were broken and recently fixed.)<br>
</p>
<p>Windowing system distributor 'Apple', ve=
rsion
10.3.2113<br>
System Description:=C2=A0 macOS 12.7.6<br>
</p>
<p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from
Homebrew.<br>
This has the behavior that I want (no
effects).<br>
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
Which supposedly comes from:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=
=3D"https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" target=3D"_blank">=
https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1,
x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
<p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a href=3D"https://emacsf=
ormacosx.com/" target=3D"_blank">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if
it has malware.)<br>
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1,
x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p=
>
<p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler
options were used on these builds? (Maybe some
emacs command will tell me?)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">It doesn'=
;t
really take much effort to click around
Caldwell's site and find out more.=C2=A0 You sh=
ould.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p>What is a "<span style=3D"font-family:monospace">Cald=
well"?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">You'll see. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div><div><p>Not if I don't have the URL.<br>
I have no idea what you're talking about.</p></div></blockquote><=
div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You gave it to us<div><a href=
=3D"https://emacsformacosx.com/">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a></div></div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><p dir=3D"auto"></p>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div>
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Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
To: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
References: <96951858-4ff4-4f8a-bdd1-ec417bca6c42@HIDDEN>
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From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
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On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
>
> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy
>> <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
>>> <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>
>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>
>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just
>>> want Emacs in
>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
>>> turns out.
>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>
>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a
>>> setting on the OS,
>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without
>>> external adjustments.
>>>
>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs
>>> all these
>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
>>> upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>
>>>
>>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see
>>> anything that stands out.
>>>
>>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>
>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated
>> to windowing. (Just other things that were broken and
>> recently fixed.)
>>
>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>> System Description: macOS 12.7.6
>>
>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>> Which supposedly comes from:
>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon
>> Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>
>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
>> appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>
>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used
>> on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>
>> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's
>> site and find out more. You should.
>
> What is a "Caldwell"?
>
>
> You'll see.
Not if I don't have the URL.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/25 7:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN+1Hbrpb+ebECKO1NGMVZ+Xp2C7qAqrZfaP8PMLWktjSqTvFg@HIDDEN">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
19:29 Christopher Stacy <<a href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On
Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy
<<a href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at
6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <<a
href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
I forgot to say: This is all about
fullscreen frames.<br>
<br>
You never use them. I use fullscreen
exclusively, for Emacs.<br>
<br>
When I am in Emacs (which is all day
every day), I just want Emacs in <br>
front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or
anything!<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Firefox does the stupid effect in full
screen mode, too, turns out.<br>
So we can't look there for the answer.<br>
<br>
I don't think the correct solution is to
change a setting on the OS, <br>
since railwaycat Emacs does the right
thing without external adjustments.<br>
<br>
This bug is in fact what has kept me on
his hacked Emacs all these <br>
years. But due to other bugs I have been
forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, <br>
and I don't think he's going to update
from 29.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace">Looking
at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I
don't see anything that stands out.</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace">Where
did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are
entirely unrelated to windowing. (Just other
things that were broken and recently fixed.)<br>
</p>
<p>Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version
10.3.2113<br>
System Description: macOS 12.7.6<br>
</p>
<p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from
Homebrew.<br>
This has the behavior that I want (no
effects).<br>
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
Which supposedly comes from: <a
href="https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1,
x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
<p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a
href="https://emacsformacosx.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if
it has malware.)<br>
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1,
x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
<p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler
options were used on these builds? (Maybe some
emacs command will tell me?)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span style="font-family:monospace">It doesn't
really take much effort to click around
Caldwell's site and find out more. You should.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p>What is a "<span style="font-family:monospace">Caldwell"?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">You'll see. <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Not if I don't have the URL.<br>
I have no idea what you're talking about.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</body>
</html>
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In-Reply-To: <51a4f2fc-0586-4981-8263-8ebbe2eea8f0@HIDDEN>
From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:32:01 -0400
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Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
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--0000000000000f026e0630e2aae2
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
m> wrote:
>
>> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
om>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>>
>>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>>
>>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>>
>>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustment=
s.
>>>
>>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30,
>>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>>
>>
>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
>> stands out.
>>
>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>>
>> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
>> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>>
>> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
>> System Description: macOS 12.7.6
>>
>> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
>> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
>> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
>> Which supposedly comes from:
>> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
>> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
>> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>>
>> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
>> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
>> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
>> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>>
>> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
>> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>>
> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
> find out more. You should.
>
> What is a "Caldwell"?
>
You'll see.
>
--0000000000000f026e0630e2aae2
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<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 19:29 Christopher Stacy <<a=
href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:<br></div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
=20
=20
=20
<div></div><div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar
21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <<a href=3D"=
mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On
Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher St=
acy
<<a href=3D"mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_b=
lank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen
frames.<br>
<br>
You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively,
for Emacs.<br>
<br>
When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I
just want Emacs in <br>
front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br=
>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen
mode, too, turns out.<br>
So we can't look there for the answer.<br>
<br>
I don't think the correct solution is to change a
setting on the OS, <br>
since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing
without external adjustments.<br>
<br>
This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked
Emacs all these <br>
years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
upgrade to Emacs 30, <br>
and I don't think he's going to update from 2=
9.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Looking at
nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see
anything that stands out.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Where did you get
your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely
unrelated to windowing. (Just other things that were
broken and recently fixed.)<br>
</p>
<p>Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3=
.2113<br>
System Description:=C2=A0 macOS 12.7.6<br>
</p>
<p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.<br>
This has the behavior that I want (no effects).<br>
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
Which supposedly comes from:=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https:/=
/github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" target=3D"_blank">https://git=
hub.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0,
Carbon Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
<p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a href=3D"https://emacsformacosx.c=
om/" target=3D"_blank">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has
malware.)<br>
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of
2025-02-24</p>
<p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were
used on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will
tell me?)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">It doesn't really
take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and find
out more.=C2=A0 You should.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div><div><p>What is a "<span style=3D"font-family:monospace">Cal=
dwell"?</span></p></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"auto">You'll see.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
><p dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"font-family:monospace"></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div>
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Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:29:16 -0400
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Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
To: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
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From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
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On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
>> <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>
>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>
>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want
>> Emacs in
>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>
>> :)
>>
>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
>> turns out.
>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>
>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on
>> the OS,
>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
>> adjustments.
>>
>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all
>> these
>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to
>> Emacs 30,
>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>
>>
>> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything
>> that stands out.
>>
>> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>
> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>
> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
> System Description: macOS 12.7.6
>
> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
> Which supposedly comes from:
> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version
> 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>
> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
> appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>
> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on
> these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>
> It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and
> find out more. You should.
What is a "Caldwell"?
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/25 7:16 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN+1HbqWstW0LichhqsOWG0bx89A8yiUBih9kFb=LvsUEjyG5g@HIDDEN">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar
21, 2025 at 7:11 PM Christopher Stacy <<a
href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On
Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy
<<a href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen
frames.<br>
<br>
You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively,
for Emacs.<br>
<br>
When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I
just want Emacs in <br>
front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen
mode, too, turns out.<br>
So we can't look there for the answer.<br>
<br>
I don't think the correct solution is to change a
setting on the OS, <br>
since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing
without external adjustments.<br>
<br>
This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked
Emacs all these <br>
years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to
upgrade to Emacs 30, <br>
and I don't think he's going to update from 29.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace">Looking at
nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see
anything that stands out.</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:monospace">Where did you get
your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely
unrelated to windowing. (Just other things that were
broken and recently fixed.)<br>
</p>
<p>Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113<br>
System Description: macOS 12.7.6<br>
</p>
<p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.<br>
This has the behavior that I want (no effects).<br>
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
Which supposedly comes from: <a
href="https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0,
Carbon Version 164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
<p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a
href="https://emacsformacosx.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has
malware.)<br>
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of
2025-02-24</p>
<p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were
used on these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will
tell me?)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><span style="font-family:monospace">It doesn't really
take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and find
out more. You should.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>What is a "<span style="font-family:monospace">Caldwell"?</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:monospace"><br>
</span></p>
</body>
</html>
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(Maybe some emacs command will tell me?) > > system-configuration-options > Right. And he needs to know what third-party patches were applied by each builder that aren't reported by system-configuration-options. Why he needs to know more about the builds because core Emacs folk won't be of that much help if a patch is the culprit. --00000000000001516a0630e29ebf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon= t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">= On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:25=E2=80=AFPM Andreas Schwab <<a href=3D"mailt= o:schwab@HIDDEN">schwab@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:</span></div><= /div><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"= gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20= 4,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On M=C3=A4r 21 2025, Christopher Stacy wrote:<= br> <br> > Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these<= br> > builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)<br> <br> system-configuration-options<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"g= mail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">Right.=C2=A0 And he needs to = know what third-party patches were applied by each builder that aren't = reported by system-configuration-options.=C2=A0 Why he needs to know more a= bout the builds because core Emacs folk won't be of that much help if a= patch is the culprit.</div></div></div> --00000000000001516a0630e29ebf--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#77160; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 77160) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Mar 2025 23:25:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Mar 21 19:25:50 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39971 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1tvlkM-000598-5K for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:25:50 -0400 Received: from mail-out.m-online.net ([2001:a60:0:28:0:1:25:1]:38554) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <whitebox@HIDDEN>) id 1tvlkJ-00058y-Bu for 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:25:48 -0400 Received: from frontend01.mail.m-online.net (unknown [192.168.8.182]) by mail-out.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ZKJTh6JSnz1sG7h; Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:25:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (dynscan1.mnet-online.de [192.168.6.68]) by mail.m-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ZKJTh2n6Kz1qqmD; Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:25:44 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: amavis at mnet-online.de Received: from mail.mnet-online.de ([192.168.8.182]) by localhost (dynscan1.mail.m-online.net [192.168.6.68]) (amavis, port 10024) with ESMTP id hu16QbotSb2v; Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:25:43 +0100 (CET) X-Auth-Info: 7zC9AVJA9pIef/qz+jXUjs6rM3Nfk4mHDy9lUHFEpWeyCMRE5PXzRGY30kR9S2Fp Received: from igel.home (aftr-82-135-83-148.dynamic.mnet-online.de [82.135.83.148]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.mnet-online.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA; Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:25:43 +0100 (CET) Received: by igel.home (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6B19B2C1A07; Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:25:43 +0100 (CET) From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames) In-Reply-To: <8d152760-0bc1-42cb-87c7-5ea8c5c64a93@HIDDEN> (Christopher Stacy's message of "Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:10:58 -0400") References: <96951858-4ff4-4f8a-bdd1-ec417bca6c42@HIDDEN> <CAN+1Hbq3X+=R_f5RA0Vw+MVqT5o_WU9RLFbiW3k6Ck7kdjCMdw@HIDDEN> <c9eaba94-ab94-43a1-8a54-b61fdfe9979c@HIDDEN> <CAN+1Hbpzh6t6brZ3QRwm3V5Du3aB3ynELFpj-O63jHJufjXeFQ@HIDDEN> <8d152760-0bc1-42cb-87c7-5ea8c5c64a93@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2025 00:25:43 +0100 Message-ID: <87cyeax8y0.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77160 Cc: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>, 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) On Mär 21 2025, Christopher Stacy wrote: > Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these > builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?) system-configuration-options -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1 "And now for something completely different."
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#77160; Package emacs.
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From: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 19:16:08 -0400
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Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
To: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
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--00000000000065e4800630e27146
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>=
wrote:
> On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN=
m> wrote:
>
>> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>>
>> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>>
>> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
>> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>>
>> :)
>>
>> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
>> So we can't look there for the answer.
>>
>> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
>> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments=
.
>>
>> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
>> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30,
>> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>>
>
> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that stand=
s
> out.
>
> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
>
> The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
> windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
>
> Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
> System Description: macOS 12.7.6
>
> Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
> This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
> brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
> Which supposedly comes from:
> https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
> GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
> AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
>
> Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
> (I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
> GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
> Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
>
> Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
> builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
>
It doesn't really take much effort to click around Caldwell's site and find
out more. You should.
Try this build https://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.=
1
and
see if it differs. This is the one I use when not building my own from
source.
You should also check your macOS settings for full-screen application
behaviors. It is possible there's something to them that you need to
understand.
--00000000000065e4800630e27146
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">=
On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:11=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><div=
class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div>
<div>On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:A=
rial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar
21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <<a href=3D"=
mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.<br>
<br>
You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.<br=
>
<br>
When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want
Emacs in <br>
front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
turns out.<br>
So we can't look there for the answer.<br>
<br>
I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting o=
n
the OS, <br>
since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
adjustments.<br>
<br>
This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all
these <br>
years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade
to Emacs 30, <br>
and I don't think he's going to update from 29.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Looking
at nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything=
that
stands out.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:monospace">Where
did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently
fixed.)<br>
</p>
<p>Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113<br>
System Description:=C2=A0 macOS 12.7.6<br>
</p>
<p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.<br>
This has the behavior that I want (no effects).<br>
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
Which supposedly comes from:=C2=A0=C2=A0
<a href=3D"https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version
164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
<p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a href=3D"https://emacsformacosx.com/" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)<br>
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
<p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on
these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)</p></div></blo=
ckquote><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">It doesn't really ta=
ke much effort to click around Caldwell's site and find out more.=C2=A0=
You should.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></s=
pan></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace">T<span class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">ry this build=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
s://github.com/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1">https://github.c=
om/jimeh/emacs-builds/releases/tag/Emacs-30.1</a>=C2=A0and see if it differ=
s.=C2=A0 This is the one I use when not building my own from source.</span>=
</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace"><br></span></span></div><div><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:monospace"><span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:monospace">You should also check your macOS settings for full-sc=
reen application behaviors.=C2=A0 It is possible there's something to t=
hem that you need to understand.</span></span></div></div></div>
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Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames)
To: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN>
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From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>
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On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.
>
> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.
>
> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in
> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!
>
> :)
>
> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.
> So we can't look there for the answer.
>
> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS,
> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
> adjustments.
>
> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these
> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to
> Emacs 30,
> and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
>
>
> Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
> stands out.
>
> Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?
The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently fixed.)
Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
System Description: macOS 12.7.6
Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.
This has the behavior that I want (no effects).
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport
Which supposedly comes from:
https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version 164
AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08
Emacs 30.1 I got from: https://emacsformacosx.com/
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS appkit-1671.60
Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24
Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on these
builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/21/25 6:32 PM, Ship Mints wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN+1Hbpzh6t6brZ3QRwm3V5Du3aB3ynELFpj-O63jHJufjXeFQ@HIDDEN">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace"><span
style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">On Fri, Mar
21, 2025 at 6:16 PM Christopher Stacy <<a
href="mailto:cstacy@HIDDEN" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>>
wrote:</span></div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes,
I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames.<br>
<br>
You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.<br>
<br>
When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want
Emacs in <br>
front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br>
<br>
:)<br>
<br>
Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too,
turns out.<br>
So we can't look there for the answer.<br>
<br>
I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on
the OS, <br>
since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external
adjustments.<br>
<br>
This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all
these <br>
years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade
to Emacs 30, <br>
and I don't think he's going to update from 29.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace">Looking
at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that
stands out.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace">Where
did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>The bugs forcing me to upgrade to 30.1 are entirely unrelated to
windowing. (Just other things that were broken and recently
fixed.)<br>
</p>
<p>Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113<br>
System Description: macOS 12.7.6<br>
</p>
<p>Emacs 29 is the railwaycat version from Homebrew.<br>
This has the behavior that I want (no effects).<br>
brew tap railwaycat/emacsmacport<br>
Which supposedly comes from:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport</a><br>
GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin20.6.0, Carbon Version
164 AppKit 2022.7) of 2023-08-08</p>
<p>Emacs 30.1 I got from: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://emacsformacosx.com/">https://emacsformacosx.com/</a><br>
(I wish I knew who that entity is. I wonder if it has malware.)<br>
GNU Emacs 30.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.7.0, NS
appkit-1671.60 Version 10.14.6 (Build 18G9323)) of 2025-02-24</p>
<p>Is there an easy way to tell what compiler options were used on
these builds? (Maybe some emacs command will tell me?)</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</body>
</html>
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I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs. > > When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in > front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything! > > :) > > Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out. > So we can't look there for the answer. > > I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS, > since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments. > > This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these > years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, > and I don't think he's going to update from 29. > Looking at nsfns and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that stands out. Where did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds? --000000000000c865d70630e1d4f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon= t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">= On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 6:16=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <<a href=3D"ma= ilto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><div= class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204= );padding-left:1ex">Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen fram= es.<br> <br> You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs.<br> <br> When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in <br> front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything!<br> <br> :)<br> <br> Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out.<br> So we can't look there for the answer.<br> <br> I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS, <b= r> since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments.<b= r> <br> This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these <br> years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, <br= > and I don't think he's going to update from 29.<br></blockquote><di= v><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">Lo= oking at nsfns=C2=A0and nsterm 29.4 vs. 30.1 I don't see anything that = stands out.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospac= e"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">W= here did you get your 29.4 and 30.1 builds?</div></div></div> --000000000000c865d70630e1d4f6--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#77160; Package emacs.
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[108.28.162.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6a1803df08f44-6eb3efdbe1fsm15592666d6.109.2025.03.21.15.16.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Mar 2025 15:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <c9eaba94-ab94-43a1-8a54-b61fdfe9979c@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 18:16:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: bug#77160: raising hell (frames) To: Ship Mints <shipmints@HIDDEN> References: <96951858-4ff4-4f8a-bdd1-ec417bca6c42@HIDDEN> <CAN+1Hbq3X+=R_f5RA0Vw+MVqT5o_WU9RLFbiW3k6Ck7kdjCMdw@HIDDEN> From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <CAN+1Hbq3X+=R_f5RA0Vw+MVqT5o_WU9RLFbiW3k6Ck7kdjCMdw@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 77160 Cc: 77160 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Yes, I forgot to say: This is all about fullscreen frames. You never use them. I use fullscreen exclusively, for Emacs. When I am in Emacs (which is all day every day), I just want Emacs in front of me. No menu bars, titlebars. or anything! :) Firefox does the stupid effect in full screen mode, too, turns out. So we can't look there for the answer. I don't think the correct solution is to change a setting on the OS, since railwaycat Emacs does the right thing without external adjustments. This bug is in fact what has kept me on his hacked Emacs all these years. But due to other bugs I have been forced to upgrade to Emacs 30, and I don't think he's going to update from 29.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#77160; Package emacs.
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The effect happens on > some other applications, not just Emacs. But I think Emacs may be > requesting it. > > The railwaycat Cocoa port > (https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport) does not do the > effect. More importantly, the (latest) Firefox does not do the effect. > When I press "cmd-`" on both those applications, I get what I expect. No > effect, no flicker, no delay --- I am instantly in the other window. > > To be able to use Emacs 30.1 which has the effect, I went into the MacOS > control panel and under Accessibility, enabled "Reduce Motion". This > replaces the 2 second (!!!) sliding doors with a 1/2 second fader > effect. That is still too slow and intrusive for doing eyeball > source-compare by switching frames. > > I will note that regular Emacs on Linux also has an effect: the window > manager does (in my case) the card-flipping effect. I don't use Linux > very much, but it would be nice to get rid of this on that platform as > well. No idea what Windows does these days, but 15 years ago when I last > booted that OS, there was no effect when switching Emacs frames. > > I have no idea how any of this works, but I speculate that either (a) > the application requests an effect (perhaps that's the default) to the > window manager; or (b) Firefox is coded to the older window system, > which doesn't do these effects. Either way, it is definitely possible to > control this and make all effects go away. Somehow. > > So I am requesting the ability for Emacs to turn the effects off. > For MacOS, ideally for all platforms, ideally a Lisp variable at runtime. > If you wanted to get fancy it could be a frame property. > i can easily imagine setting it on only some frames, as I use frames for > a variety of purposes. > I can compile Emacs if that's what I have to do, to test a patch or to > set a compile-time option. I will gladly test this if anyone will hack it= . > > Thank You for any clues and hacks! > I use Monterey with 29.4, 30.1, 31/master and I never see any such animations (which I consider childish, like emojis). I also never see such things on Linux. The code for Emacs makes no explicit requests that I can discern. I'm guessing you have installed something else on your system or have some other setting that is interfering. Or... Are you running "full screen" windows? I never use those (only "maximized" in Emacs parlance) so it is possible what you are observing is something related to switching among full-screen frames. Disable Mission Control and Spaces and see what happens. --000000000000ccedfe0630e15710 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon= t-family:monospace"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">= On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 5:36=E2=80=AFPM Christopher Stacy <<a href=3D"ma= ilto:cstacy@HIDDEN">cstacy@HIDDEN</a>> wrote:</span></div></div><div= class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204= );padding-left:1ex">In Emacs 30.1 on MacOS Monterey:<br> <br> I am used to the switching of frames being seamless and instant, with no <b= r> special effects.<br> <br> At some point, MacOS started doing this horrible sliding doors animation <b= r> when switching frames (window manager windows). The effect happens on <br> some other applications, not just Emacs. But I think Emacs may be <br> requesting it.<br> <br> The railwaycat Cocoa port <br> (<a href=3D"https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport" rel=3D"nor= eferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacp= ort</a>) does not do the <br> effect. More importantly, the (latest) Firefox does not do the effect.=C2= =A0 <br> When I press "cmd-`" on both those applications, I get what I exp= ect. No <br> effect, no flicker, no delay --- I am instantly in the other window.<br> <br> To be able to use Emacs 30.1 which has the effect, I went into the MacOS <b= r> control panel and under Accessibility, enabled "Reduce Motion". T= his <br> replaces the 2 second (!!!) sliding doors with a 1/2 second fader <br> effect. That is still too slow and intrusive for doing eyeball <br> source-compare by switching frames.<br> <br> I will note that regular Emacs on Linux also has an effect: the window <br> manager does (in my case) the card-flipping effect. I don't use Linux <= br> very much, but it would be nice to get rid of this on that platform as <br> well. No idea what Windows does these days, but 15 years ago when I last <b= r> booted that OS, there was no effect when switching Emacs frames.<br> <br> I have no idea how any of this works, but I speculate that either (a) <br> the application requests an effect (perhaps that's the default) to the = <br> window manager; or (b) Firefox is coded to the older window system, <br> which doesn't do these effects. Either way, it is definitely possible t= o <br> control this and make all effects go away. Somehow.<br> <br> So I am requesting the ability for Emacs to turn the effects off.<br> For MacOS, ideally for all platforms, ideally a Lisp variable at runtime.<b= r> If you wanted to get fancy it could be a frame property.<br> i can easily imagine setting it on only some frames, as I use frames for <b= r> a variety of purposes.<br> I can compile Emacs if that's what I have to do, to test a patch or to = <br> set a compile-time option. I will gladly test this if anyone will hack it.<= br> <br> Thank You for any clues and hacks!<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div clas= s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace">I use Monterey with 29.= 4, 30.1, 31/master and I never see any such animations (which I consider ch= ildish, like emojis).=C2=A0 I also never see such things on Linux.=C2=A0 Th= e code for Emacs makes no explicit requests that I can discern.=C2=A0 I'= ;m guessing you have installed something else on your system or have some o= ther setting that is interfering.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style= =3D"font-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"= font-family:monospace">Or...</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon= t-family:monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa= mily:monospace">Are you running "full screen" windows?=C2=A0 I ne= ver use those (only "maximized" in Emacs parlance) so it is possi= ble what you are observing is something related to switching among full-scr= een frames.=C2=A0 Disable Mission Control and Spaces and see what happens.<= /div></div></div> --000000000000ccedfe0630e15710--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#77160; Package emacs.
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[108.28.162.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6a1803df08f44-6eb3ef0efe4sm15484276d6.21.2025.03.21.14.35.36 for <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 21 Mar 2025 14:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <96951858-4ff4-4f8a-bdd1-ec417bca6c42@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2025 17:35:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN> Content-Language: en-US Subject: raising hell (frames) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::f2d; envelope-from=cstacy@HIDDEN; helo=mail-qv1-xf2d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) In Emacs 30.1 on MacOS Monterey: I am used to the switching of frames being seamless and instant, with no special effects. At some point, MacOS started doing this horrible sliding doors animation when switching frames (window manager windows). The effect happens on some other applications, not just Emacs. But I think Emacs may be requesting it. The railwaycat Cocoa port (https://github.com/railwaycat/homebrew-emacsmacport) does not do the effect. More importantly, the (latest) Firefox does not do the effect. When I press "cmd-`" on both those applications, I get what I expect. No effect, no flicker, no delay --- I am instantly in the other window. To be able to use Emacs 30.1 which has the effect, I went into the MacOS control panel and under Accessibility, enabled "Reduce Motion". This replaces the 2 second (!!!) sliding doors with a 1/2 second fader effect. That is still too slow and intrusive for doing eyeball source-compare by switching frames. I will note that regular Emacs on Linux also has an effect: the window manager does (in my case) the card-flipping effect. I don't use Linux very much, but it would be nice to get rid of this on that platform as well. No idea what Windows does these days, but 15 years ago when I last booted that OS, there was no effect when switching Emacs frames. I have no idea how any of this works, but I speculate that either (a) the application requests an effect (perhaps that's the default) to the window manager; or (b) Firefox is coded to the older window system, which doesn't do these effects. Either way, it is definitely possible to control this and make all effects go away. Somehow. So I am requesting the ability for Emacs to turn the effects off. For MacOS, ideally for all platforms, ideally a Lisp variable at runtime. If you wanted to get fancy it could be a frame property. i can easily imagine setting it on only some frames, as I use frames for a variety of purposes. I can compile Emacs if that's what I have to do, to test a patch or to set a compile-time option. I will gladly test this if anyone will hack it. Thank You for any clues and hacks!
Christopher Stacy <cstacy@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#77160; Package emacs.
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