GNU logs - #78474, boring messages

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Resent-From: Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN>
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Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 2025 22:56:02 +0000
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To: 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?S=C3=A9bastien?= Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
From: Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN>
Organization: GNU
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 00:53:13 +0200
Message-ID: <87wmaeonmu.fsf@HIDDEN>
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With Emacs >= 24 in rxvt (not urxvt), steps to reproduce:

1. find a new buffer and write "Coucou"
2. hit SPC
3. see the space inserted: it is too large.

https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png illustrates the bug.

Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
(\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"

This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
visually impaired.

Sebastien reported this problem and both Samuel and Sebastien might help
with further information on how to reproduce this, if needed.


In GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
 3.24.38, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2025-05-16 built on guerry
Repository revision: 7d7d821c495abcd740fd20f6a8df6da5bd920cd3
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101007
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)

Configured using:
 'configure --with-native-compilation --without-compress-install
 --with-mailutils --with-tree-sitter --with-imagemagick'

Configured features:
CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ
IMAGEMAGICK JPEG LCMS2 LIBSELINUX LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY
INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP X11 XDBE XIM XINERAMA XINPUT2 XPM
XRANDR GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: fr_FR.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: IBuffer

Minor modes in effect:
  global-git-commit-mode: t
  magit-auto-revert-mode: t
  server-mode: t
  pdf-occur-ibuffer-minor-mode: t
  pdf-occur-global-minor-mode: t
  envrc-global-mode: t
  envrc-mode: t
  which-key-mode: t
  hidden-mode-line-mode: t
  bzg-big-fringe-mode: t
  global-hl-line-mode: t
  pixel-scroll-mode: t
  auto-insert-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  eldoc-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  minibuffer-regexp-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  line-number-mode: t
  indent-tabs-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

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lsp-ruby-syntax-tree lsp-ruby-lsp lsp-rubocop lsp-roslyn lsp-roc lsp-rf
lsp-remark lsp-racket lsp-r lsp-qml lsp-pylsp lsp-pyls lsp-pwsh
lsp-purescript lsp-postgres lsp-pls lsp-php lsp-perlnavigator lsp-perl
lsp-openscad lsp-ocaml find-file lsp-nushell lsp-nix lsp-nim lsp-nginx
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lsp-marksman lsp-markdown lsp-magik lsp-fennel lsp-lua lsp-lisp
lsp-kubernetes-helm lsp-kotlin lsp-json lsp-jq lsp-javascript lsp-idris
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lsp-dhall lsp-d lsp-cypher lsp-cucumber lsp-copilot lsp-css lsp-c3
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lsp-clangd lsp-bufls lsp-go lsp-completion lsp-beancount lsp-bash
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notmuch-maildir-fcc notmuch-address notmuch-company notmuch-parser
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orgalist-autoloads ox-json-autoloads pandoc-mode-autoloads
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parseclj-autoloads pdf-tools-autoloads dash-autoloads po-mode-autoloads
popwin-autoloads warnings relint-autoloads restclient-autoloads
rg-autoloads s-autoloads sesman-autoloads tablist-autoloads
taxy-magit-section-autoloads taxy-autoloads magit-section-autoloads
llama-autoloads transient-autoloads txl-autoloads
guess-language-autoloads request-autoloads use-package-autoloads
bind-key-autoloads varuga-autoloads vterm-autoloads web-mode-autoloads
wgrep-autoloads which-key-autoloads info with-editor-autoloads
xr-autoloads yasnippet-autoloads package browse-url xdg url url-proxy
url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie
generate-lisp-file url-domsuf url-util mailcap url-handlers url-parse
auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs icons password-cache json
subr-x map byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile url-vars cl-loaddefs cl-lib
rmc iso-transl tooltip cconv eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook
vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel term/x-win x-win
term/common-win x-dnd touch-screen tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt
fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode
register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select
scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors
frame minibuffer nadvice seq simple cl-generic indonesian philippine
cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao
korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript
charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help abbrev obarray oclosure
cl-preloaded button loaddefs theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp
files window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env
code-pages mule custom widget keymap hashtable-print-readable backquote
threads dbusbind inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting cairo gtk x-toolkit xinput2 x multi-tty move-toolbar
make-network-process tty-child-frames native-compile emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 3611857 536322) (symbols 48 113233 45)
 (strings 32 1093966 148111) (string-bytes 1 38051469)
 (vectors 16 319894) (vector-slots 8 4352010 963665)
 (floats 8 4560 13360) (intervals 56 217767 5934) (buffers 1064 100))

-- 
 Bastien

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To: Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#78474: Acknowledgement (31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt)
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Subject: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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To: Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN>
Cc: 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, samuel.thibault@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 08:13:58 +0300
Message-Id: <864ixiv6uh.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <87wmaeonmu.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Bastien Guerry on Sun, 18
 May 2025 00:53:13 +0200)
References: <87wmaeonmu.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> Cc: S�bastien Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>,
>  Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> From: Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN>
> Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 00:53:13 +0200
> 
> 
> With Emacs >= 24 in rxvt (not urxvt), steps to reproduce:
> 
> 1. find a new buffer and write "Coucou"
> 2. hit SPC
> 3. see the space inserted: it is too large.
> 
> https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png illustrates the bug.
> 
> Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> 
> This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
> visually impaired.
> 
> Sebastien reported this problem and both Samuel and Sebastien might help
> with further information on how to reproduce this, if needed.

Emacs has code to estimate the cost of the various ways of getting the
same effect on a text-only terminal and choose the least expensive
one, see cm.c.  If some of the calculations there need to be augmented
to avoid confusing the technologies you mention, someone who knows
about those technologies should study the code and tell us how to
modify the calculations.  Then we could have those modifications
either optional (subject to some user option), or even unconditional.

If S�bastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
used, we could see how to fix this.

Thanks.

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Subject: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Resent-From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
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Cc: Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN>, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:01:17 +0200
From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <aCmTzRHXl_yVj4SO@begin>
References: <87wmaeonmu.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <864ixiv6uh.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Hello,

Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> 
> If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> used, we could see how to fix this.

That is exactly what is written above.

Samuel

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> Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:01:17 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN>, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > 
> > If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> > modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> > motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> > used, we could see how to fix this.
> 
> That is exactly what is written above.

Sorry, I don't understand: what is written above?

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Subject: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
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Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 11:05:49 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > > 
> > > If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> > > modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> > > motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> > > used, we could see how to fix this.
> > 
> > That is exactly what is written above.
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand: what is written above?

?

"Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
(\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"

that is the optimization that disturbs some terminals such as rxvt or
vte.

Samuel

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Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> writes:

> "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"

I'd describe it as the result of the "optimization" rather than the
optimization itself...

Line 90 of cm.c, there is this if clause that leads to a comment:

	if (tty->Wcm->cm_magicwrap)
	    ;			/* "limbo" */

I guess rxvt and vte implement a variant of magicwrap that is not
handled by addcol, which leaves the cursor in "limbo" state.

Maybe Samuel you can give details on how rxvt vte handle auto/magic
wrapping and, perhaps, how addcol should be fixed?

I don't see any interaction between addcol and evalcost but I might
be wrong.

-- 
 Bastien

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> Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:30:01 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 11:05:49 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > > > 
> > > > If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> > > > modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> > > > motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> > > > used, we could see how to fix this.
> > > 
> > > That is exactly what is written above.
> > 
> > Sorry, I don't understand: what is written above?
> 
> ?
> 
> "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> 
> that is the optimization that disturbs some terminals such as rxvt or
> vte.

Yes, but what does that mean in general?  Should Emacs refrain from
sending TAB in all the cases?  Are there other characters that should
not be sent for similar reasons?

To modify the code, it is not enough to understand what should be done
in this specific case, we need to better understand the problem and
its various aspects, in order to be able to translate that into code
changes.

Also, I'm a bit confused: you say that sending \009\008 disturbs rxvt
or vte, but the original report seemed to be not about what the
terminals do, but about what that causes to the various software
solutions for the visually impaired.  Can you please tell more about
this to resolve the confusion?

Thanks.

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Hello,

Bastien Guerry, le dim. 18 mai 2025 10:54:50 +0200, a ecrit:
> Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> > "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> 
> I'd describe it as the result of the "optimization" rather than the
> optimization itself...
> 
> Line 90 of cm.c, there is this if clause that leads to a comment:
> 
> 	if (tty->Wcm->cm_magicwrap)
> 	    ;			/* "limbo" */

But this is only about the end of a line? We are not talking about the
end of a line here.

That said, that pointed me to the optimization code in calccost, which
looks at tty->Wcm->cm_usetabs to determine whether to use tabs or not,
which is set from tabs_safe_p and TabWidth. Apparently, using 

stty -tabs

does avoid the issue, by making rxvt & vte switch to destructive tabs,
which emacs then knows to avoid just for moving the cursor.

Samuel

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From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 12:18:32 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:30:01 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
> > 
> > Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 11:05:49 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > > > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > > > > 
> > > > > If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> > > > > modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> > > > > motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> > > > > used, we could see how to fix this.
> > > > 
> > > > That is exactly what is written above.
> > > 
> > > Sorry, I don't understand: what is written above?
> > 
> > ?
> > 
> > "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > 
> > that is the optimization that disturbs some terminals such as rxvt or
> > vte.
> 
> Yes, but what does that mean in general?  Should Emacs refrain from
> sending TAB in all the cases?

At least, having an option to avoid this optimization would be useful.

> Are there other characters that should not be sent for similar
> reasons?

I'm not aware of any other character movement sequence that would be
confused with text addition.

> Also, I'm a bit confused: you say that sending \009\008 disturbs rxvt
> or vte, but the original report seemed to be not about what the
> terminals do, but about what that causes to the various software
> solutions for the visually impaired.  Can you please tell more about
> this to resolve the confusion?

The eventual issue is that what when typing "coucou " in emacs, what
ends up sent by emacs to vte is "coucou\x09\x08", and what vte exposes
to accessibility technologies is "coucou\t", and it is then unable to
expose to them that the cursor position is in the middle of that "\t".

And it happens that rxvt gets a similar confusion, leading to that wide
cursor appearance
https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png

Samuel

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On Mai 18 2025, Bastien Guerry wrote:

> Line 90 of cm.c, there is this if clause that leads to a comment:

That line is inside a #if 0 block.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN
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"And now for something completely different."

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Is there anyone working on this?

It's beyond my skills, but I'd hate to see this bug closed due to lack
of activity/interest.  Let me know if I can help somehow.

-- 
 Bastien Guerry

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>>>>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 17:20:52 +0200, Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN> said:

    Bastien> Is there anyone working on this?
    Bastien> It's beyond my skills, but I'd hate to see this bug closed due to lack
    Bastien> of activity/interest.  Let me know if I can help somehow.

I can take a look at it. Eli, a clue as to where this optimization
happens in the redisplay code?

Robert
--

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> From: Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>   Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 17:20:52 +0200
> 
> Is there anyone working on this?
> 
> It's beyond my skills, but I'd hate to see this bug closed due to lack
> of activity/interest.  Let me know if I can help somehow.

Sorry, there's not enough useful information in this discussion to
make any progress.

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> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>,  78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  Eli
>  Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 19:32:43 +0200
> 
> >>>>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 17:20:52 +0200, Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN> said:
> 
>     Bastien> Is there anyone working on this?
>     Bastien> It's beyond my skills, but I'd hate to see this bug closed due to lack
>     Bastien> of activity/interest.  Let me know if I can help somehow.
> 
> I can take a look at it. Eli, a clue as to where this optimization
> happens in the redisplay code?

I mentioned that up-thread: it's in cm.c.

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>>>>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 22:06:25 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> said:

    >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
    >> Cc: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>,  78474@HIDDEN=
g,  Eli
    >> Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
    >> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 19:32:43 +0200
    >>=20
    >> >>>>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 17:20:52 +0200, Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN=
g> said:
    >>=20
    Bastien> Is there anyone working on this?
    Bastien> It's beyond my skills, but I'd hate to see this bug closed due=
 to lack
    Bastien> of activity/interest.  Let me know if I can help somehow.
    >>=20
    >> I can take a look at it. Eli, a clue as to where this optimization
    >> happens in the redisplay code?

    Eli> I mentioned that up-thread: it's in cm.c.

Thanks, I=CA=BCd missed that.

cm.c works out the cost of either

- moving past the destination with tabs then moving left
- moving towards the destination with tabs then moving right
- moving right directly to the destination

According to my instrumentation, emitting the 'move right' command
costs 3 times as much as 'emit tab' or 'move left' here, so it=CA=BCs an
optimization that makes sense, especially if the destination is far
away.

So I don=CA=BCt think a generic 'make tabs expensive' is a good idea, but I
guess we could add a user option to disable the use of tabs for motion
on ttys.

Robert
--=20

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Subject: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
> Cc: bzg@HIDDEN,  78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  samuel.thibault@HIDDEN,
>   Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
> Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 17:43:49 +0200
> 
> >>>>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 22:06:25 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> said:
> 
>     >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
>     >> Cc: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>,  78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  Eli
>     >> Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
>     >> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 19:32:43 +0200
>     >> 
>     >> >>>>> On Fri, 11 Jul 2025 17:20:52 +0200, Bastien Guerry <bzg@HIDDEN> said:
>     >> 
>     Bastien> Is there anyone working on this?
>     Bastien> It's beyond my skills, but I'd hate to see this bug closed due to lack
>     Bastien> of activity/interest.  Let me know if I can help somehow.
>     >> 
>     >> I can take a look at it. Eli, a clue as to where this optimization
>     >> happens in the redisplay code?
> 
>     Eli> I mentioned that up-thread: it's in cm.c.
> 
> Thanks, Iʼd missed that.
> 
> cm.c works out the cost of either
> 
> - moving past the destination with tabs then moving left
> - moving towards the destination with tabs then moving right
> - moving right directly to the destination
> 
> According to my instrumentation, emitting the 'move right' command
> costs 3 times as much as 'emit tab' or 'move left' here, so itʼs an
> optimization that makes sense, especially if the destination is far
> away.
> 
> So I donʼt think a generic 'make tabs expensive' is a good idea, but I
> guess we could add a user option to disable the use of tabs for motion
> on ttys.

Feel free to suggest a patch with such a variable.

We should also think how to make the accessibility-related knobs more
discoverable.  Perhaps a new section in the user manual is in order.

Thanks.

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>>>>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2025 08:30:44 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> said:

    Eli> Feel free to suggest a patch with such a variable.

See below. I have zero ego about the name of the option.

Perhaps the "stty -tabs" workaround should go into PROBLEMS.

    Eli> We should also think how to make the accessibility-related knobs m=
ore
    Eli> discoverable.  Perhaps a new section in the user manual is in orde=
r.

Indeed, I didn=CA=BCt find a good place to put this. What else would go in
this new node apart from this new user option? `text-scale-increase',
I guess, and discussion of the high-contrast themes.

(did anyone ever (re-)implement sticky modifier keys for Emacs? That=CA=BCs
about the only thing I miss from XEmacs)

Robert
--=20

diff --git c/etc/NEWS i/etc/NEWS
index f7aebdf538f..637df26d246 100644
--- c/etc/NEWS
+++ i/etc/NEWS
@@ -78,6 +78,13 @@ the 'standard-display-table's extra slots with Unicode c=
haracters.
 Please see the documentation of that function to see which slots of the
 display table it changes.
=20
++++
+** New user option 'tty-allow-tabs-for-motion'.
+The display optimization where TAB characters may be used to move around
+on a TTY frame can now be disabled by customizing the user option
+'tty-allow-tabs-for-motion' to nil (default t).  This is to accomodate
+screen readers which may interpret those TAB characters literally.
+
 +++
 ** Child frames are now supported on TTY frames.
 This supports use-cases like Posframe, Corfu, and child frames acting
diff --git c/lisp/cus-start.el i/lisp/cus-start.el
index 09364b68e11..d74459657f3 100644
--- c/lisp/cus-start.el
+++ i/lisp/cus-start.el
@@ -602,6 +602,7 @@ minibuffer-prompt-properties--setter
 						    "21.1")
              ;; term.c
              (visible-cursor cursor boolean "22.1")
+             (tty-allow-tabs-for-motion cursor boolean "31.1")
              ;; terminal.c
              (ring-bell-function display
               (choice
diff --git c/src/cm.c i/src/cm.c
index 150d1c9a580..a464fd5d0d4 100644
--- c/src/cm.c
+++ i/src/cm.c
@@ -225,7 +225,8 @@ calccost (struct tty_display_info *tty,
 	goto dodelta;		/* skip all the tab junk */
     }
     /* Tabs (the toughie) */
-    if (tty->Wcm->cc_tab >=3D BIG || !tty->Wcm->cm_usetabs)
+    if (!tty_allow_tabs_for_motion /* Bug#78474.  */
+	|| tty->Wcm->cc_tab >=3D BIG || !tty->Wcm->cm_usetabs)
 	goto olddelta;		/* forget it! */
=20
     /*
diff --git c/src/term.c i/src/term.c
index 8aa47322d19..acb21c66e05 100644
--- c/src/term.c
+++ i/src/term.c
@@ -5167,6 +5167,17 @@ syms_of_term (void)
 trigger redisplay.  */);
   tty_menu_calls_mouse_position_function =3D 0;
=20
+  DEFVAR_BOOL ("tty-allow-tabs-for-motion", tty_allow_tabs_for_motion,
+    doc: /* Whether TTY frames may use TAB characters for moving around.
+As a display optimization, Emacs may move between two positions on a TTY
+frame by emitting TAB characters, combined with TTY motion commands,
+when this is more efficient than using only motion commands.  These
+characters can interfere with the functioning of some software, such as
+screen readers, which interpret the TAB characters literally.  Set this
+to nil to disable this optimization, but be warned that this may affect
+redisplay performance.  */);
+  tty_allow_tabs_for_motion =3D 1;
+
   defsubr (&Stty_display_color_p);
   defsubr (&Stty_display_color_cells);
   defsubr (&Stty_no_underline);

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> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
> Cc: bzg@HIDDEN,  78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  samuel.thibault@HIDDEN,
>   Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 14:12:54 +0200
> 
> >>>>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2025 08:30:44 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> said:
> 
>     Eli> Feel free to suggest a patch with such a variable.
> 
> See below. I have zero ego about the name of the option.

See below.

> Perhaps the "stty -tabs" workaround should go into PROBLEMS.

A good idea, but please add that to PROBLEMS on the release branch
(unlike the rest of the patch).

>     Eli> We should also think how to make the accessibility-related knobs more
>     Eli> discoverable.  Perhaps a new section in the user manual is in order.
> 
> Indeed, I didnʼt find a good place to put this. What else would go in
> this new node apart from this new user option? `text-scale-increase',
> I guess, and discussion of the high-contrast themes.

Also w32-use-visible-system-caret (a link to the relevant appendix
should be enough).  Hopefully, the list will grow.

> (did anyone ever (re-)implement sticky modifier keys for Emacs? Thatʼs
> about the only thing I miss from XEmacs)

Are there nowadays systems which don't have this built-in?

> +** New user option 'tty-allow-tabs-for-motion'.

I suggest 'cursor-motion-use-tabs' instead.

Thanks.

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Hello,

I apologize in advance if my question is stupid, I have been able to
follow the discussion only from afar.

Is the proposed solution going to work out of the box, or is theuser who
will need it going to have to enable it and what we are discussing is
how easy it will be for that user to discover how?

Again sorry if the answer is obvious and  I simply missed it.

Seb.

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Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/21 15:52 +0300):
> Are there nowadays systems which don't have this built-in?

I am not sure theLinux console does.

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:04:43 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I apologize in advance if my question is stupid, I have been able to
> follow the discussion only from afar.
> 
> Is the proposed solution going to work out of the box, or is theuser who
> will need it going to have to enable it and what we are discussing is
> how easy it will be for that user to discover how?

The user will need to customize the option to disable the use of tabs.

We plan on describing the option in the Emacs user manual, in a
special section dedicated to accessibility-related features.  I hope
this will be discoverable enough.

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:07:13 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> 
> Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/21 15:52 +0300):
> > Are there nowadays systems which don't have this built-in?
> 
> I am not sure theLinux console does.

It isn't a feature of the console, I think, it's a feature of the
keyboard input subsystem.

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 15:52:31 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> said:

    >> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
    >> Cc: bzg@HIDDEN,  78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  samuel.thibault@HIDDEN,
    >> Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN
    >> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 14:12:54 +0200
    >>=20
    >> >>>>> On Thu, 17 Jul 2025 08:30:44 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN=
g> said:
    >>=20
    Eli> Feel free to suggest a patch with such a variable.
    >>=20
    >> See below. I have zero ego about the name of the option.

    Eli> See below.

    >> Perhaps the "stty -tabs" workaround should go into PROBLEMS.

    Eli> A good idea, but please add that to PROBLEMS on the release branch
    Eli> (unlike the rest of the patch).

Done

    Eli> We should also think how to make the accessibility-related knobs m=
ore
    Eli> discoverable.  Perhaps a new section in the user manual is in orde=
r.
    >>=20
    >> Indeed, I didn=CA=BCt find a good place to put this. What else would=
 go in
    >> this new node apart from this new user option? `text-scale-increase',
    >> I guess, and discussion of the high-contrast themes.

    Eli> Also w32-use-visible-system-caret (a link to the relevant appendix
    Eli> should be enough).  Hopefully, the list will grow.

OK, I=CA=BCve put this on my list. Could we point at EmacsSpeak as well?

    >> (did anyone ever (re-)implement sticky modifier keys for Emacs? That=
=CA=BCs
    >> about the only thing I miss from XEmacs)

    Eli> Are there nowadays systems which don't have this built-in?

    >> +** New user option 'tty-allow-tabs-for-motion'.

    Eli> I suggest 'cursor-motion-use-tabs' instead.

Done. Patch attached, without any manual changes, for now.

Robert
--=20


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename=0001-Allow-disabling-use-of-TABS-for-motion-on-TTYs-Bug-7.patch

From 5101647f3c762f2155aa754d0499b962779478dc Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:13:41 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Allow disabling use of TABS for motion on TTYs (Bug#78474)

* src/term.c (syms_of_term): New user option
'cursor-motion-use-tabs'.
* src/cm.c (calccost): Don't emit TAB for motion when
'cursor-motion-use-tabs' is false.
* lisp/cus-start.el (standard): Add custom spec for it.

* etc/NEWS: Announce the new user option.
---
 etc/NEWS          |  7 +++++++
 lisp/cus-start.el |  1 +
 src/cm.c          |  3 ++-
 src/term.c        | 11 +++++++++++
 4 files changed, 21 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
index b469b22aacf..85d089bd126 100644
--- a/etc/NEWS
+++ b/etc/NEWS
@@ -85,6 +85,13 @@ the 'standard-display-table's extra slots with Unicode characters.
 Please see the documentation of that function to see which slots of the
 display table it changes.
 
+---
+** New user option 'cursor-motion-use-tabs'.
+The display optimization where TAB characters may be used to move around
+on a TTY frame can now be disabled by customizing the user option
+'cursor-motion-use-tabs' to nil (default t).  This is to accommodate
+screen readers which may interpret those TAB characters literally.
+
 +++
 ** Child frames are now supported on TTY frames.
 This supports use-cases like Posframe, Corfu, and child frames acting
diff --git a/lisp/cus-start.el b/lisp/cus-start.el
index 3bc296e4ad1..d68113e27f7 100644
--- a/lisp/cus-start.el
+++ b/lisp/cus-start.el
@@ -602,6 +602,7 @@ minibuffer-prompt-properties--setter
 						    "21.1")
              ;; term.c
              (visible-cursor cursor boolean "22.1")
+             (cursor-motion-use-tabs cursor boolean "31.1")
              ;; terminal.c
              (ring-bell-function display
               (choice
diff --git a/src/cm.c b/src/cm.c
index 150d1c9a580..0eaa1c41337 100644
--- a/src/cm.c
+++ b/src/cm.c
@@ -225,7 +225,8 @@ calccost (struct tty_display_info *tty,
 	goto dodelta;		/* skip all the tab junk */
     }
     /* Tabs (the toughie) */
-    if (tty->Wcm->cc_tab >= BIG || !tty->Wcm->cm_usetabs)
+    if (!cursor_motion_use_tabs /* Bug#78474.  */
+	|| tty->Wcm->cc_tab >= BIG || !tty->Wcm->cm_usetabs)
 	goto olddelta;		/* forget it! */
 
     /*
diff --git a/src/term.c b/src/term.c
index 8aa47322d19..b6dbf100437 100644
--- a/src/term.c
+++ b/src/term.c
@@ -5167,6 +5167,17 @@ syms_of_term (void)
 trigger redisplay.  */);
   tty_menu_calls_mouse_position_function = 0;
 
+  DEFVAR_BOOL ("cursor-motion-use-tabs", cursor_motion_use_tabs,
+    doc: /* Whether TTY frames may use TAB characters for moving around.
+As a display optimization, Emacs may move between two positions on a TTY
+frame by emitting TAB characters, combined with TTY motion commands,
+when this is more efficient than using only motion commands.  These
+characters can interfere with the functioning of some software, such as
+screen readers, which interpret the TAB characters literally.  Set this
+to nil to disable this optimization, but be warned that this may affect
+redisplay performance.  */);
+  cursor_motion_use_tabs = 1;
+
   defsubr (&Stty_display_color_p);
   defsubr (&Stty_display_color_cells);
   defsubr (&Stty_no_underline);
-- 
2.39.5


--=-=-=--

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>>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:18:58 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> said:

    >> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:07:13 +0200
    >> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
    >> Cc: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474@HIDDEN=
org,
    >> samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
    >>=20
    >> Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/21 15:52 +0300):
    >> > Are there nowadays systems which don't have this built-in?
    >>=20
    >> I am not sure theLinux console does.

    Eli> It isn't a feature of the console, I think, it's a feature of the
    Eli> keyboard input subsystem.

All the systems I use have a way to turn on a 'sticky keys' or similar
feature. But they=CA=BCre all different, and I access different Emacs
running on different target systems from different source systems. So
it would be nice if there was a way to enable it in Emacs instead of
changing the configuration of the system where I happen to be typing
from. But it=CA=BCs less of problem now that my Ctrl key is next to the
space bar everywhere =F0=9F=98=80

Robert
--=20

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Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/21 17:17 +0300):
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:04:43 +0200
> > From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> > 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I apologize in advance if my question is stupid, I have been able to
> > follow the discussion only from afar.
> >
> > Is the proposed solution going to work out of the box, or is theuser who
> > will need it going to have to enable it and what we are discussing is
> > how easy it will be for that user to discover how?
>
> The user will need to customize the option to disable the use of tabs.
>
> We plan on describing the option in the Emacs user manual, in a
> special section dedicated to accessibility-related features.  I hope
> this will be discoverable enough.

Okay, thanks. Let me first say that I do  appreciate the effort and
sincere will to make tools accessible. Also, I am not especially fond of
the posture of the person who is never happy withanything, even when
others do efforts. In general I try very hard not to be such a person,
but...
I would like to emphasize that, generally speaking, ifsomebody is in
need of accessibility, one can quite reasonably assume that the life of
this person is already rather hard. So I tend to be of the opinion that,
as easy as the discoverability of such options may be, it still leaves
the «configuration burden»on the shoulders of people who already have a
lot to tinker with.

This leads me to the suggestion that the configuration where tab is not
used is the one enabled by default, leaving the configuraitn burden to
those to whom performance matters enough for them to care.

Apologies if at any stage I misunderstood theproblem, I am not strongly
attached to my point of view and ready to change my mind, especially if
I am being proven wrong.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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>>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:35:05 +0200, Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@=
inria.fr> said:

    Seb> Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/21 17:17 +0300):
    >> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:04:43 +0200
    >> > From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
    >> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474@HIDDEN=
rg,
    >> > 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
    >> >
    >> > Hello,
    >> >
    >> > I apologize in advance if my question is stupid, I have been able =
to
    >> > follow the discussion only from afar.
    >> >
    >> > Is the proposed solution going to work out of the box, or is theus=
er who
    >> > will need it going to have to enable it and what we are discussing=
 is
    >> > how easy it will be for that user to discover how?
    >>=20
    >> The user will need to customize the option to disable the use of tab=
s.
    >>=20
    >> We plan on describing the option in the Emacs user manual, in a
    >> special section dedicated to accessibility-related features.  I hope
    >> this will be discoverable enough.

    Seb> Okay, thanks. Let me first say that I do  appreciate the effort and
    Seb> sincere will to make tools accessible. Also, I am not especially f=
ond of
    Seb> the posture of the person who is never happy withanything, even wh=
en
    Seb> others do efforts. In general I try very hard not to be such a per=
son,
    Seb> but...
    Seb> I would like to emphasize that, generally speaking, ifsomebody is =
in
    Seb> need of accessibility, one can quite reasonably assume that the li=
fe of
    Seb> this person is already rather hard. So I tend to be of the opinion=
 that,
    Seb> as easy as the discoverability of such options may be, it still le=
aves
    Seb> the =C2=ABconfiguration burden=C2=BBon the shoulders of people who=
 already have a
    Seb> lot to tinker with.

Yes. Is there any way of detecting that the screen reader software
we=CA=BCre confusing is running? If so, we could add code to disable the
use of TAB for that case.

    Seb> This leads me to the suggestion that the configuration where tab i=
s not
    Seb> used is the one enabled by default, leaving the configuraitn burde=
n to
    Seb> those to whom performance matters enough for them to care.

That=CA=BCs a valid point of view. The Emacs maintainers need to balance
that against the principle of not breaking backwards compatibility or
introducing performance regressions unless absolutely necessary.

I honestly don=CA=BCt know if the performance optimization makes any
difference these days, I=CA=BCll see if I can come up with some kind of
test (does `baud-rate' actually affect anything?).

    Seb> Apologies if at any stage I misunderstood theproblem, I am not str=
ongly
    Seb> attached to my point of view and ready to change my mind, especial=
ly if
    Seb> I am being proven wrong.

No worries. Only the Sith deal in absolutes =F0=9F=98=89
Robert
--=20

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:35:05 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> 
> This leads me to the suggestion that the configuration where tab is not
> used is the one enabled by default, leaving the configuraitn burden to
> those to whom performance matters enough for them to care.

I see where you're coming from, but IMO such a change can only fly if
we enabled this new behavior when some screen-reading software is in
use.  And that requires some means for Emacs to detect this.  If
someone knows how to do that on Posix systems, please speak up.

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Hello,

Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:12:25 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:35:05 +0200
> > From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> > 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> > 
> > This leads me to the suggestion that the configuration where tab is not
> > used is the one enabled by default, leaving the configuraitn burden to
> > those to whom performance matters enough for them to care.
> 
> I see where you're coming from, but IMO such a change can only fly if
> we enabled this new behavior when some screen-reading software is in
> use.  And that requires some means for Emacs to detect this.  If
> someone knows how to do that on Posix systems, please speak up.

That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions (and it's
not posix, it's gnomish).

Samuel

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Hello,

Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 16:53:34 +0200, a ecrit:
> I honestly donʼt know if the performance optimization makes any
> difference these days,

I don't think it will be actually measurable by any mean. The
optimization we are talking about saves transmitting one byte while
making the terminal interpret one more character sequence (tab+backspace
vs arrow-right). In the common case of running emacs in a terminal, I'd
rather guess that the overhead of the additional character sequence
interpretation is most probably way more expensive than the transmission
of an additional byte.

Samuel

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:34:22 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:12:25 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:35:05 +0200
> > > From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> > > Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> > > 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> > > 
> > > This leads me to the suggestion that the configuration where tab is not
> > > used is the one enabled by default, leaving the configuraitn burden to
> > > those to whom performance matters enough for them to care.
> > 
> > I see where you're coming from, but IMO such a change can only fly if
> > we enabled this new behavior when some screen-reading software is in
> > use.  And that requires some means for Emacs to detect this.  If
> > someone knows how to do that on Posix systems, please speak up.
> 
> That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions

How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
to any system, so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
invisible on Linux terminals.

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Robert Pluim (2025/07/21 16:53 +0200):
> Yes. Is there any way of detecting that the screen reader software
> weʼre confusing is running? If so, we could add code to disable the
> use of TAB for that case.

As Samuel has explained, no, there is no need to.

Also, if I understand correctly, we are talking about a behaviour which
is buggy even in contexts beyond accessibility, I think it were rxvt
terminals which were mentionned at the beginning of the thread.

So to me, trying to optimize a code which actually does not quite work
everywhere feels like like taking the problem the wrong way as we should
first make the code work everywhere, and then, potentially, try to
optimize it.

>     Seb> This leads me to the suggestion that the configuration where tab is not
>     Seb> used is the one enabled by default, leaving the configuraitn burden to
>     Seb> those to whom performance matters enough for them to care.
>
> Thatʼs a valid point of view. The Emacs maintainers need to balance
> that against the principle of not breaking backwards compatibility or
> introducing performance regressions unless absolutely necessary.

I trust them on those as I have my self no clue on what are the impacts,
neither on performance nor on backward compatibility. I'd assume that,
of the two, backward compatibility is the most critical. Regarding
performance, compared to what web browsers and graphical user interfaces
do, well, I am not sure a few characters are even worht talkinb about,
even though I do not think that the others doing it in a pour way is an
excuse for us to do likewise. ;)

Seb.

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:37:02 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>,
> 	Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 16:53:34 +0200, a ecrit:
> > I honestly donʼt know if the performance optimization makes any
> > difference these days,
> 
> I don't think it will be actually measurable by any mean. The
> optimization we are talking about saves transmitting one byte while
> making the terminal interpret one more character sequence (tab+backspace
> vs arrow-right). In the common case of running emacs in a terminal, I'd
> rather guess that the overhead of the additional character sequence
> interpretation is most probably way more expensive than the transmission
> of an additional byte.

There's no interpretation.  The bytes are sent and executed by the
video driver.  Using tabs can save several spaces or several bytes of
a cursor movement command, and that is not a trivial difference.

So let's please not argue about this.  We can only turn this feature
on by default if Emacs can tell, with a sufficient degree of
certainty, that a screen-reading software is in use.  Otherwise, users
will need to enable this manually.

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Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/21 18:43 +0300):
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:34:22 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> > 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:12:25 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:35:05 +0200
> > > > From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> > > > Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> > > > 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> > > >
> > > > This leads me to the suggestion that the configuration where tab is not
> > > > used is the one enabled by default, leaving the configuraitn burden to
> > > > those to whom performance matters enough for them to care.
> > >
> > > I see where you're coming from, but IMO such a change can only fly if
> > > we enabled this new behavior when some screen-reading software is in
> > > use.  And that requires some means for Emacs to detect this.  If
> > > someone knows how to do that on Posix systems, please speak up.
> >
> > That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions
>
> How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> to any system,

Can you elaborate why you are thingking so?

> so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
> invisible on Linux terminals.

Well then, be surprised, they are. Basically the kernel provides
/dev/vcsa and then every tool that needs to monitor the screen reads it.
There is no API for a screen reader to present itself as such because
there has never really been the need for that.

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Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:43:19 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:12:25 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:35:05 +0200
> > > > From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> > > > Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> > > > 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> > > > 
> > > > This leads me to the suggestion that the configuration where tab is not
> > > > used is the one enabled by default, leaving the configuraitn burden to
> > > > those to whom performance matters enough for them to care.
> > > 
> > > I see where you're coming from, but IMO such a change can only fly if
> > > we enabled this new behavior when some screen-reading software is in
> > > use.  And that requires some means for Emacs to detect this.  If
> > > someone knows how to do that on Posix systems, please speak up.
> > 
> > That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions
> 
> How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> to any system, so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
> invisible on Linux terminals.

They really are, since they just read the content from /dev/vcsa.

Samul

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:44:55 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> 
> Robert Pluim (2025/07/21 16:53 +0200):
> > Yes. Is there any way of detecting that the screen reader software
> > weʼre confusing is running? If so, we could add code to disable the
> > use of TAB for that case.
> 
> As Samuel has explained, no, there is no need to.

I understood that he said there was no means, not that there was no
need.  The need clearly exists -- for Emacs.

> Also, if I understand correctly, we are talking about a behaviour which
> is buggy even in contexts beyond accessibility, I think it were rxvt
> terminals which were mentionned at the beginning of the thread.

I'm not aware of any bugs with this behavior, on any terminal we
support.

This feature is being added for the benefit of users who run
screen-reading software.  I'm not aware of any other reasons to
disable the use of tabs in Emacs cursor motion.

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:47:30 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/21 18:43 +0300):
> > > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:34:22 +0200
> > > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > > Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> > > 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > >
> > > > I see where you're coming from, but IMO such a change can only fly if
> > > > we enabled this new behavior when some screen-reading software is in
> > > > use.  And that requires some means for Emacs to detect this.  If
> > > > someone knows how to do that on Posix systems, please speak up.
> > >
> > > That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions
> >
> > How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> > to any system,
> 
> Can you elaborate why you are thingking so?

Because catching screen output is not an easy feat on modern
platforms.

> > so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
> > invisible on Linux terminals.
> 
> Well then, be surprised, they are. Basically the kernel provides
> /dev/vcsa and then every tool that needs to monitor the screen reads it.
> There is no API for a screen reader to present itself as such because
> there has never really been the need for that.

Then maybe the /dev/vcsa driver itself could be the sign we need?  Or
any of those other tools you mention?  Anything that happens on those
systems and can serve as a reliable-enough indication of the use of
screen-reading software, will do.

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:47:37 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > > That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions
> > 
> > How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> > to any system, so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
> > invisible on Linux terminals.
> 
> They really are, since they just read the content from /dev/vcsa.

OK, but the reader itself is a program that is loaded into memory,
right?  Can those programs be detected somehow?  Do they leave some
traces somewhere on the system?  E.g., if those programs have known
names, we could scan the processes running on the system and look for
them, if no better method exists.

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> Cc: bzg@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN,
>  78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:58:06 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
> 
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:47:37 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > 
> > > > That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions
> > > 
> > > How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> > > to any system, so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
> > > invisible on Linux terminals.
> > 
> > They really are, since they just read the content from /dev/vcsa.
> 
> OK, but the reader itself is a program that is loaded into memory,
> right?  Can those programs be detected somehow?  Do they leave some
> traces somewhere on the system?  E.g., if those programs have known
> names, we could scan the processes running on the system and look for
> them, if no better method exists.

Or maybe some completely indirect indication, not directly related to
screen-readers.  For example, is there an indication that the user
activated some accessibility features?

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--EPkKBQ5CJe6YHO7T
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Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:47:07 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 16:53:34 +0200, a ecrit:
> > > I honestly donʼt know if the performance optimization makes any
> > > difference these days,
> > 
> > I don't think it will be actually measurable by any mean. The
> > optimization we are talking about saves transmitting one byte while
> > making the terminal interpret one more character sequence (tab+backspace
> > vs arrow-right). In the common case of running emacs in a terminal, I'd
> > rather guess that the overhead of the additional character sequence
> > interpretation is most probably way more expensive than the transmission
> > of an additional byte.
> 
> There's no interpretation.

Of course there is.

> The bytes are sent and executed by the video driver.

No, it's the terminal layer.

> Using tabs can save several spaces or several bytes of
> a cursor movement command, and that is not a trivial difference.

But a right-arrow interpretation is quite more trivial than a tab
interpretation plus backspace interpretation.

Really, please come up with actual figures. We can't be trading
performance for accuracy without significant figures.

I have tried the attached test which reproduces both ways and reports
the time to achieve one million iteration, on my system:

- with rxvt: non-optimized way takes ~1.9s, optimized way takes ~2.1s.
- with mate-terminal: non-optimized way takes ~1.8s, optimized way takes
  ~2.0s.

So on my system at least the "optimized" way is actually slower.

Samuel

--EPkKBQ5CJe6YHO7T
Content-Type: text/x-csrc; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="test.c"

#include <stdio.h>
#include <unistd.h>
#include <sys/time.h>

int main(void) {
	int i;
	struct timeval tv;
	double last, new;

	gettimeofday(&tv, NULL);
	last = tv.tv_sec + tv.tv_usec*0.000001;

	write(1, "      ", 6);
	while(1) {
#if 0
		write(1, "\e[C", 3);
#else
		write(1, "\t\b", 2);
#endif
		write(1, "\b", 1);
		i++;

		if (i == 1000000) {
			i = 0;
			gettimeofday(&tv, NULL);
			new = tv.tv_sec + tv.tv_usec*0.000001;
			printf("%f\n", new - last);
			last = new;
			write(1, "      ", 6);
		}
	}
}

--EPkKBQ5CJe6YHO7T--

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Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:51:42 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:44:55 +0200
> > From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> > 	samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> > 
> > Robert Pluim (2025/07/21 16:53 +0200):
> > > Yes. Is there any way of detecting that the screen reader software
> > > weʼre confusing is running? If so, we could add code to disable the
> > > use of TAB for that case.
> > 
> > As Samuel has explained, no, there is no need to.
> 
> I understood that he said there was no means, not that there was no
> need.  The need clearly exists -- for Emacs.
> 
> > Also, if I understand correctly, we are talking about a behaviour which
> > is buggy even in contexts beyond accessibility, I think it were rxvt
> > terminals which were mentionned at the beginning of the thread.
> 
> I'm not aware of any bugs with this behavior, on any terminal we
> support.

It is buggy on rxvt, as the very first mail of this whole thread talks
about:

https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png

The cursor it two times too big.

> This feature is being added for the benefit of users who run
> screen-reading software.  I'm not aware of any other reasons to
> disable the use of tabs in Emacs cursor motion.

It's actually even slower on my box.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:54:45 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/21 18:43 +0300):
> > > > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:34:22 +0200
> > > > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > > > Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> > > > 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > > >
> > > > > I see where you're coming from, but IMO such a change can only fly if
> > > > > we enabled this new behavior when some screen-reading software is in
> > > > > use.  And that requires some means for Emacs to detect this.  If
> > > > > someone knows how to do that on Posix systems, please speak up.
> > > >
> > > > That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions
> > >
> > > How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> > > to any system,
> > 
> > Can you elaborate why you are thingking so?
> 
> Because catching screen output is not an easy feat on modern
> platforms.

It is. Cat /dev/vcs, and you have it.

> > > so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
> > > invisible on Linux terminals.
> > 
> > Well then, be surprised, they are. Basically the kernel provides
> > /dev/vcsa and then every tool that needs to monitor the screen reads it.
> > There is no API for a screen reader to present itself as such because
> > there has never really been the need for that.
> 
> Then maybe the /dev/vcsa driver itself could be the sign we need?

It is also used by other tools.

Samuel

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Subject: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
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Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:58:06 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions
> > > 
> > > How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> > > to any system, so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
> > > invisible on Linux terminals.
> > 
> > They really are, since they just read the content from /dev/vcsa.
> 
> OK, but the reader itself is a program that is loaded into memory,
> right?  Can those programs be detected somehow?  Do they leave some
> traces somewhere on the system?  E.g., if those programs have known
> names, we could scan the processes running on the system and look for
> them, if no better method exists.

Do you allow me to puke?

Samuel

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Samuel Thibault, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:00:47 +0200, a ecrit:
> I have tried the attached test which reproduces both ways and reports
> the time to achieve one million iteration, on my system:
> 
> - with rxvt: non-optimized way takes ~1.9s, optimized way takes ~2.1s.
> - with mate-terminal: non-optimized way takes ~1.8s, optimized way takes
>   ~2.0s.

On the Linux console (fbcon)
- non-optimized way takes ~7.2s
- optimized way takes ~10.0s

Samuel

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Samuel Thibault, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:08:28 +0200, a ecrit:
> Samuel Thibault, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:00:47 +0200, a ecrit:
> > I have tried the attached test which reproduces both ways and reports
> > the time to achieve one million iteration, on my system:
> > 
> > - with rxvt: non-optimized way takes ~1.9s, optimized way takes ~2.1s.
> > - with mate-terminal: non-optimized way takes ~1.8s, optimized way takes
> >   ~2.0s.
> 
> On the Linux console (fbcon)
> - non-optimized way takes ~7.2s
> - optimized way takes ~10.0s

I also tried through ssh in rxvt, which is a case where the additional
byte is supposed to matter. non-optimized way takes ~5.4s, optimized way
takes ~7.0s...

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/21 18:47 +0300):
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 17:37:02 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>,
> > 	Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 16:53:34 +0200, a ecrit:
> > > I honestly donʼt know if the performance optimization makes any
> > > difference these days,
> >
> > I don't think it will be actually measurable by any mean. The
> > optimization we are talking about saves transmitting one byte while
> > making the terminal interpret one more character sequence (tab+backspace
> > vs arrow-right). In the common case of running emacs in a terminal, I'd
> > rather guess that the overhead of the additional character sequence
> > interpretation is most probably way more expensive than the transmission
> > of an additional byte.
>
> There's no interpretation.  The bytes are sent and executed by the
> video driver.  Using tabs can save several spaces or several bytes of
> a cursor movement command, and that is not a trivial difference.
>
> So let's please not argue about this.

Well I must say I remain unconvinced (1) about how trivial or not the
difference is and (2) about, even non-trivial, whether it outweights the
burden for users of accessibility technologies.

> We can only turn this feature
> on by default if Emacs can tell, with a sufficient degree of
> certainty, that a screen-reading software is in use.  Otherwise, users
> will need to enable this manually.

One possibility might be if distirbutions have a way to configure once
and for all whether accessibility isneeded and then Emacs' configuration
could select its default based on that.


For the sake of completeness of this discussion, Samuel may want to
share a link on a discussion that happened in the context of the Debian
installer. The topic being discussed there was that visually impaired
people need n audible Beep to know whenthe boot process is done andthey
can tyep an 's' to maketheinstallerspeak. Understandably, havingthe beep
turned on by default was deemed annoying by those testingthe installer
whichwas beepingallthe time. In the end, it was accepted to let the beep
on by default because it was considered that its inconveninece for the
testers was less problematic than the burden it represented to turn it
on for those in need for it, thetrick being to plug a headset to the
computer while testing the installer. Samuel will hopefully correct me
if anything I write is wrong or inaccurate.

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>>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:02:00 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@=
gnu.org> said:

    Samuel> It is buggy on rxvt, as the very first mail of this whole threa=
d talks
    Samuel> about:

    Samuel> https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png

    Samuel> The cursor it two times too big.

Yet another reason to avoid rxvt *ducks*

    >> This feature is being added for the benefit of users who run
    >> screen-reading software.  I'm not aware of any other reasons to
    >> disable the use of tabs in Emacs cursor motion.

    Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.

You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move in
multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt it=CA=BCs that cut and dried.

My testing shows that it=CA=BCs slower to have tabs disabled, in that visit=
ing
src/xdisp.c and pressing C-v repeatedly makes redisplay freeze earlier
than when they=CA=BCre enabled (Emacs eventually catches up).

Robert
--=20

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Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:19:24 +0200, a ecrit:
> > >> This feature is being added for the benefit of users who run
> > >> screen-reading software.  I'm not aware of any other reasons to
> > >> disable the use of tabs in Emacs cursor motion.
> >
> > Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
> 
> You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move in
> multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt itʼs that cut and dried.

The case which actually poses problem is only that \t\b vs \e[C. Using
tab without moving back with \b does not pose problem.

Samuel

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Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:19:24 +0200, a ecrit:
> >>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:02:00 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> 
>     Samuel> It is buggy on rxvt, as the very first mail of this whole thread talks
>     Samuel> about:
> 
>     Samuel> https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png
> 
>     Samuel> The cursor it two times too big.
> 
> Yet another reason to avoid rxvt *ducks*

Well, one thing is: I was unabled to find an actual reference on what
*exactly* \t is supposed to be doing for the terminal content. Notably,
run:

echo -e 'a\ta'

and copy/paste that text: do you expect the paste to be 'a\ta' or
'a       a' ? I have seen people request for the former.

Also, if you run:

echo -e 'a\t'

is there actually supposed to be some content to copy/paste on the right
of a?

Samuel

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Samuel Thibault, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:35:53 +0200, a ecrit:
> Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:19:24 +0200, a ecrit:
> > >>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:02:00 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> > 
> >     Samuel> It is buggy on rxvt, as the very first mail of this whole thread talks
> >     Samuel> about:
> > 
> >     Samuel> https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png
> > 
> >     Samuel> The cursor it two times too big.
> > 
> > Yet another reason to avoid rxvt *ducks*
> 
> Well, one thing is: I was unabled to find an actual reference on what
> *exactly* \t is supposed to be doing for the terminal content.

And don't get me wrong, I tried hard, because that's precisely what I'm
missing for getting fixed the behavior of libvte, the only accessible
graphical terminal. They too are waving hands at optimizations which
are making the content wrong. Both emacs and vte are getting borderline
on the precise semantics of \t, and the problem is that they are on
*different* sides.

Samuel

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>>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:25:05 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@=
gnu.org> said:

    Samuel> Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:19:24 +0200, a ecrit:
    >> > >> This feature is being added for the benefit of users who run
    >> > >> screen-reading software.  I'm not aware of any other reasons to
    >> > >> disable the use of tabs in Emacs cursor motion.
    >> >
    >> > Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
    >>=20
    >> You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move in
    >> multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt it=CA=BCs that cut and dried.

    Samuel> The case which actually poses problem is only that \t\b vs \e[C=
. Using
    Samuel> tab without moving back with \b does not pose problem.

But Emacs uses \t for motion for more than that one case. Are you
saying that if we change Emacs to avoid only \t\b then vte and rxvt
will be happy? That=CA=BCs a much less impactful change.

Robert
--=20

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Robert Pluim, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 10:17:37 +0200, a ecrit:
> >>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:25:05 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> 
>     Samuel> Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:19:24 +0200, a ecrit:
>     >> > >> This feature is being added for the benefit of users who run
>     >> > >> screen-reading software.  I'm not aware of any other reasons to
>     >> > >> disable the use of tabs in Emacs cursor motion.
>     >> >
>     >> > Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
>     >> 
>     >> You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move in
>     >> multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt itʼs that cut and dried.
> 
>     Samuel> The case which actually poses problem is only that \t\b vs \e[C. Using
>     Samuel> tab without moving back with \b does not pose problem.
> 
> But Emacs uses \t for motion for more than that one case. Are you
> saying that if we change Emacs to avoid only \t\b then vte and rxvt
> will be happy?

Yes. That's the only case that we have reported from the beginning.

Samuel

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> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>,  bzg@HIDDEN,
>   78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 16:27:16 +0200
> 
>     Eli> It isn't a feature of the console, I think, it's a feature of the
>     Eli> keyboard input subsystem.
> 
> All the systems I use have a way to turn on a 'sticky keys' or similar
> feature. But theyʼre all different, and I access different Emacs
> running on different target systems from different source systems. So
> it would be nice if there was a way to enable it in Emacs instead of
> changing the configuration of the system where I happen to be typing
> from.

I think we will only be able to implement this when the raw-key events
feature is installed?  because otherwise, how can we detect the Shift
or Ctrl or Alt keypress, to change state?  Or what am I missing?

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:00:47 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I have tried the attached test which reproduces both ways and reports
> the time to achieve one million iteration, on my system:
> 
> - with rxvt: non-optimized way takes ~1.9s, optimized way takes ~2.1s.
> - with mate-terminal: non-optimized way takes ~1.8s, optimized way takes
>   ~2.0s.
> 
> So on my system at least the "optimized" way is actually slower.

For that particular single case.  Not in general.

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:28:19 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:00:47 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > 
> > I have tried the attached test which reproduces both ways and reports
> > the time to achieve one million iteration, on my system:
> > 
> > - with rxvt: non-optimized way takes ~1.9s, optimized way takes ~2.1s.
> > - with mate-terminal: non-optimized way takes ~1.8s, optimized way takes
> >   ~2.0s.
> > 
> > So on my system at least the "optimized" way is actually slower.
> 
> For that particular single case.

Which is exactly the case that we are reporting about.

Samuel

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:02:00 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:51:42 +0300, a ecrit:
> > I'm not aware of any bugs with this behavior, on any terminal we
> > support.
> 
> It is buggy on rxvt, as the very first mail of this whole thread talks
> about:
> 
> https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png
> 
> The cursor it two times too big.

Ah, okay.  Apologies for forgetting that.

However, that seems a rxvt-specific bug, which should be solved there.
It is only tangentially relevant here.  I don't see this on other
terminals; do you?

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:03:47 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:58:06 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions
> > > > 
> > > > How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> > > > to any system, so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
> > > > invisible on Linux terminals.
> > > 
> > > They really are, since they just read the content from /dev/vcsa.
> > 
> > OK, but the reader itself is a program that is loaded into memory,
> > right?  Can those programs be detected somehow?  Do they leave some
> > traces somewhere on the system?  E.g., if those programs have known
> > names, we could scan the processes running on the system and look for
> > them, if no better method exists.
> 
> Do you allow me to puke?

You can, but it will hardly be useful.

And frankly, I don't understand the attitude.  The original request
was to have an option to disable use of TABs for moving the cursor,
see

  https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=78474#29

Adding such an option is a relatively easy decision, and a preliminary
patch was already posted here to that effect.

But now you have changed the request, and are asking to disable the
TABs by default.  That is a much harder decision to make, since the
relevant code is working for us for decades, and disabling TABs will
definitely slow down display on text-mode terminals, especially those
connected via slow-speed connections.  So I'm trying hard to find some
way of determining that the user could be using screen reading
software, or some other accessibility features of the OS, to
automatically disable TABs only in those cases.  (We do something
similar with system caret on MS-Windows, another accessibility feature
related to screen readers.)  IOW, I'm trying to find a way to allow us
to disable TABs in those cases where that matters, instead of asking
the affected users to do that manually.  Why this should cause the
above reaction is beyond me.

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> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  Seb Hinderer
>  <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>,  bzg@HIDDEN,  78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:19:24 +0200
> 
>     Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
> 
> You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move in
> multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt itʼs that cut and dried.
> 
> My testing shows that itʼs slower to have tabs disabled, in that visiting
> src/xdisp.c and pressing C-v repeatedly makes redisplay freeze earlier
> than when theyʼre enabled (Emacs eventually catches up).

I have no doubt that the use of TABs speeds up display on average,
because its "cost" notion is based on counting bytes written to the
screen.  It chooses the method that writes the smallest number of
bytes, and that must be faster in general.

Of course, specially-tailored cases could be concocted which show the
contrary, but that's not what this code is about.  The request in this
bug report, AFAIU, was to disable the use of TABs _in_all_cases_, not
just in the particular case shown by the recipe at the beginning of
the discussion.

For users who use screen-reading software the speed gains are
outweighed by the correctness of the spoken text, so disabling TABs in
those cases makes sense.  But if we want to do that automatically, we
should find some reasonably-accurate indication of such uses, like we
do with w32-use-visible-system-caret on MS-Windows.  If the number of
false positives is low, we could risk disabling TABs for a small
fraction of users who don't actually use screen readers.

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:03:19 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:54:45 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> > > > to any system,
> > > 
> > > Can you elaborate why you are thingking so?
> > 
> > Because catching screen output is not an easy feat on modern
> > platforms.
> 
> It is. Cat /dev/vcs, and you have it.

When I do that on a GNU/Linux system to which I have access, I get:

   $ cat /dev/vcs
   cat: /dev/vcs: Permission denied

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:45:15 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:02:00 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> > 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > 
> > Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:51:42 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > I'm not aware of any bugs with this behavior, on any terminal we
> > > support.
> > 
> > It is buggy on rxvt, as the very first mail of this whole thread talks
> > about:
> > 
> > https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png
> > 
> > The cursor it two times too big.
> 
> Ah, okay.  Apologies for forgetting that.
> 
> However, that seems a rxvt-specific bug, which should be solved there.

It's also in vte, where it matters for accessibility. And we have a
*hard* time getting it fixed (the upstream bug has been lying there for
a decade already).

We mentioned rxvt because it is easy to see it there.

And again, I have not yet found a document that explicitly says what
terminals are supposed to do for the content.

Samuel

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:25:05 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
> 	Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > > Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
> > 
> > You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move in
> > multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt itʼs that cut and dried.
> 
> The case which actually poses problem is only that \t\b vs \e[C. Using
> tab without moving back with \b does not pose problem.

If that's the only problematic case, then disabling TABs as in the
proposed patch is not TRT.

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:03:52 +0300, a ecrit:
> Of course, specially-tailored cases could be concocted which show the
> contrary, but that's not what this code is about.  The request in this
> bug report, AFAIU, was to disable the use of TABs _in_all_cases_,

No.

“
Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
(\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"

This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
visually impaired.
”

I don't remember really asking for more than that.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:08:09 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:25:05 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
> > 	Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN,
> > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > 
> > > > Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
> > > 
> > > You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move in
> > > multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt itʼs that cut and dried.
> > 
> > The case which actually poses problem is only that \t\b vs \e[C. Using
> > tab without moving back with \b does not pose problem.
> 
> If that's the only problematic case, then disabling TABs as in the
> proposed patch is not TRT.

I don't think I asked for this, and only confirmed that it's one way to
do it.

Samuel

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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:35:53 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
> 	Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:19:24 +0200, a ecrit:
> > >>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:02:00 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> > 
> >     Samuel> It is buggy on rxvt, as the very first mail of this whole thread talks
> >     Samuel> about:
> > 
> >     Samuel> https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png
> > 
> >     Samuel> The cursor it two times too big.
> > 
> > Yet another reason to avoid rxvt *ducks*
> 
> Well, one thing is: I was unabled to find an actual reference on what
> *exactly* \t is supposed to be doing for the terminal content. Notably,
> run:
> 
> echo -e 'a\ta'
> 
> and copy/paste that text: do you expect the paste to be 'a\ta' or
> 'a       a' ? I have seen people request for the former.

What you copy/paste and what is written to the screen are not
necessarily the same thing.  The effect of TAB on the screen is to
move the cursor (or the rest of the line's text) to the right by a
suitably-computed number of columns, which depends on the column where
you do that.  What is copy/paste'd depends on the program which
serves the copy: some give you TAB, others give you spaces.

> Also, if you run:
> 
> echo -e 'a\t'
> 
> is there actually supposed to be some content to copy/paste on the right
> of a?

IME, also depends on the program which serves the copy/paste.

(I think these aspects are tangents, not an integral part of this
discussion.)

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From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:54:27 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:03:47 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > 
> > Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:58:06 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > > That does not exist in terminals, only in graphical sessions
> > > > > 
> > > > > How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> > > > > to any system, so I'd be very surprised to hear that they are
> > > > > invisible on Linux terminals.
> > > > 
> > > > They really are, since they just read the content from /dev/vcsa.
> > > 
> > > OK, but the reader itself is a program that is loaded into memory,
> > > right?  Can those programs be detected somehow?  Do they leave some
> > > traces somewhere on the system?  E.g., if those programs have known
> > > names, we could scan the processes running on the system and look for
> > > them, if no better method exists.
> > 
> > Do you allow me to puke?
> 
> You can, but it will hardly be useful.
> 
> And frankly, I don't understand the attitude.

I'm sorry, but I also have a hard time understanding the attitude.

This bug is making emacs user have to avoid working in the graphical
desktop environment, because they cannot reliably edit text. And thus
they miss all the graphical tools that everybody else is using. So
they'd have to switch back&forth between textmode and console to do
their work, a very painful experience.

And you are proposing to probe for the existence of a process to decide
the emacs behavior. There has been already half a dozen graphical
screen readers, some of which have even changed name. How can that be
considered a solution when we are talking about just adding one byte...

> The original request was to have an option to disable use of TABs for
> moving the cursor, see

No.

>   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=78474#29

*Actually* see the _*original*_ request:

“
Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
(\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"

This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
visually impaired.
”

Yes. I'm repeating myself. Since you don't seem to be accepting that.

> But now you have changed the request, and are asking to disable the
> TABs by default.

I'm not *asking* for something in particular. I'm asking for a solution
to the *actual* problem, which is \009\008. And not a solution that will
break as soon as somebody creates their own screen reader for their own
use.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:05:27 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:03:19 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> > 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > 
> > Eli Zaretskii, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:54:45 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > How come?  Screen readers should announce themselves quite prominently
> > > > > to any system,
> > > > 
> > > > Can you elaborate why you are thingking so?
> > > 
> > > Because catching screen output is not an easy feat on modern
> > > platforms.
> > 
> > It is. Cat /dev/vcs, and you have it.
> 
> When I do that on a GNU/Linux system to which I have access, I get:
> 
>    $ cat /dev/vcs
>    cat: /dev/vcs: Permission denied

Yes, screen readers have always had to be privileged somehow.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:15:28 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:35:53 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
> > 	Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN,
> > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > 
> > Robert Pluim, le lun. 21 juil. 2025 18:19:24 +0200, a ecrit:
> > > >>>>> On Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:02:00 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> > > 
> > >     Samuel> It is buggy on rxvt, as the very first mail of this whole thread talks
> > >     Samuel> about:
> > > 
> > >     Samuel> https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png
> > > 
> > >     Samuel> The cursor it two times too big.
> > > 
> > > Yet another reason to avoid rxvt *ducks*
> > 
> > Well, one thing is: I was unabled to find an actual reference on what
> > *exactly* \t is supposed to be doing for the terminal content. Notably,
> > run:
> > 
> > echo -e 'a\ta'
> > 
> > and copy/paste that text: do you expect the paste to be 'a\ta' or
> > 'a       a' ? I have seen people request for the former.
> 
> What you copy/paste and what is written to the screen are not
> necessarily the same thing.  The effect of TAB on the screen is to
> move the cursor (or the rest of the line's text) to the right by a
> suitably-computed number of columns, which depends on the column where
> you do that.  What is copy/paste'd depends on the program which
> serves the copy: some give you TAB, others give you spaces.
> 
> > Also, if you run:
> > 
> > echo -e 'a\t'
> > 
> > is there actually supposed to be some content to copy/paste on the right
> > of a?
> 
> IME, also depends on the program which serves the copy/paste.
> 
> (I think these aspects are tangents, not an integral part of this
> discussion.)

They are fully part of the discussion, because that changes what is
actually supposed to be stored in the terminal, and thus what the
accessibility feature is supposed to expose to the user: should it
expose a tab, or spaces. But if a tab, then how can the cursor be inside
the tab when emitting \t\b. That's the *whole* problem at stake.

And thus why I mentioned looking for an actual document that explictly
says that \t is supposed to produce spaces, because for now the vte
maintainer is saying that there is no text there and thus it should not
be exposed to the accessibility layer, but then the cursor is getting
wrong, making emacs essentially unusable as it is now. If I had a text
that explicitly says that \t produces content, it would be way easier
to fix this on the vte side. For now, we have been stuck for a *decade*
there.

Samuel

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Samuel Thibault, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:16:02 +0200, a ecrit:
> And not a solution that will break as soon as somebody creates their
> own screen reader for their own use.

To put some context here: one of the latest screen readers out there,
odilia, is already concerned by the amount of existing workarounds
for accessibility in general. If they bang their head against walls
concerning \t\b, wondering why that works with the well-known orca
screen reader, and not with their own, and end up seeing a hardcoded
list of the screen readers that are fortunate enough to be known enough
to get the proper behavior of emacs in vte, as opposed to the screen
reader that they are trying to write, then yes, I believe they could
almost litteraly throw up.

Samuel

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>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:10:11 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@=
gnu.org> said:

    Samuel> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:08:09 +0300, a ecrit:
    >> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:25:05 +0200
    >> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
    >> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
    >> > 	Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN,
    >> > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
    >> >=20
    >> > > > Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
    >> > >=20
    >> > > You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move=
 in
    >> > > multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt it=CA=BCs that cut and dri=
ed.
    >> >=20
    >> > The case which actually poses problem is only that \t\b vs \e[C. U=
sing
    >> > tab without moving back with \b does not pose problem.
    >>=20
    >> If that's the only problematic case, then disabling TABs as in the
    >> proposed patch is not TRT.

    Samuel> I don't think I asked for this, and only confirmed that it's on=
e way to
    Samuel> do it.

That was my misinterpretation of the request. It=CA=BCs easy enough to
restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but we=CA=BCll have to
come up with a new name for the user option :-)

Robert
--=20

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Robert Pluim, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:30:52 +0200, a ecrit:
> >>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:10:11 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> 
>     Samuel> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:08:09 +0300, a ecrit:
>     >> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:25:05 +0200
>     >> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
>     >> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
>     >> > 	Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN,
>     >> > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>     >> > 
>     >> > > > Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
>     >> > > 
>     >> > > You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move in
>     >> > > multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt itʼs that cut and dried.
>     >> > 
>     >> > The case which actually poses problem is only that \t\b vs \e[C. Using
>     >> > tab without moving back with \b does not pose problem.
>     >> 
>     >> If that's the only problematic case, then disabling TABs as in the
>     >> proposed patch is not TRT.
> 
>     Samuel> I don't think I asked for this, and only confirmed that it's one way to
>     Samuel> do it.
> 
> That was my misinterpretation of the request. Itʼs easy enough to
> restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but weʼll have to
> come up with a new name for the user option :-)

Since \t\b is actually slower than \e[C, I don't see why it should be an
option.

Samuel

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>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:33:38 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@=
gnu.org> said:

    >> That was my misinterpretation of the request. It=CA=BCs easy enough =
to
    >> restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but we=CA=BCll h=
ave to
    >> come up with a new name for the user option :-)

    Samuel> Since \t\b is actually slower than \e[C, I don't see why it sho=
uld be an
    Samuel> option.

You=CA=BCre a braver man than I to make such a statement, and I for one
will not propose a change like this that cannot be controlled with a
variable of some sort.

Robert
--=20

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 13:30:41 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:28:19 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:00:47 +0200
> > > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > > Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> > > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> > > 
> > > I have tried the attached test which reproduces both ways and reports
> > > the time to achieve one million iteration, on my system:
> > > 
> > > - with rxvt: non-optimized way takes ~1.9s, optimized way takes ~2.1s.
> > > - with mate-terminal: non-optimized way takes ~1.8s, optimized way takes
> > >   ~2.0s.
> > > 
> > > So on my system at least the "optimized" way is actually slower.
> > 
> > For that particular single case.
> 
> Which is exactly the case that we are reporting about.

No, it isn't.  Not even if only \t\b should be disabled.

What we need is to implement a prototype of the change to disable the
above, and then time it on a large enough buffer.

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:09:40 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN,
> 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:03:52 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Of course, specially-tailored cases could be concocted which show the
> > contrary, but that's not what this code is about.  The request in this
> > bug report, AFAIU, was to disable the use of TABs _in_all_cases_,
> 
> No.
> 
> “
> Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> 
> This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
> visually impaired.
> ”

We are mis-communicating.  When I said "in all cases", I meant even
when TABs do not cause any problems and/or when screen-reading
software is not used at all.

> I don't remember really asking for more than that.

A reminder from https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=78474#77

> This leads me to the suggestion that the configuration where tab is not
> used is the one enabled by default, leaving the configuraitn burden to
> those to whom performance matters enough for them to care.

And no, it wasn't you who asked for that; but then I didn't say it was
you.

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:16:02 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > But now you have changed the request, and are asking to disable the
> > TABs by default.
> 
> I'm not *asking* for something in particular. I'm asking for a solution
> to the *actual* problem, which is \009\008.

Yes, by default (as opposed to an opt-in solution).  That's what I
meant.  Apologies if that wasn't clear.

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:16:25 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:05:27 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > It is. Cat /dev/vcs, and you have it.
> > 
> > When I do that on a GNU/Linux system to which I have access, I get:
> > 
> >    $ cat /dev/vcs
> >    cat: /dev/vcs: Permission denied
> 
> Yes, screen readers have always had to be privileged somehow.

Which maybe gives us a way to detect them?

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:20:24 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:15:28 +0300, a ecrit:
> > What you copy/paste and what is written to the screen are not
> > necessarily the same thing.  The effect of TAB on the screen is to
> > move the cursor (or the rest of the line's text) to the right by a
> > suitably-computed number of columns, which depends on the column where
> > you do that.  What is copy/paste'd depends on the program which
> > serves the copy: some give you TAB, others give you spaces.
> > 
> > > Also, if you run:
> > > 
> > > echo -e 'a\t'
> > > 
> > > is there actually supposed to be some content to copy/paste on the right
> > > of a?
> > 
> > IME, also depends on the program which serves the copy/paste.
> > 
> > (I think these aspects are tangents, not an integral part of this
> > discussion.)
> 
> They are fully part of the discussion, because that changes what is
> actually supposed to be stored in the terminal, and thus what the
> accessibility feature is supposed to expose to the user: should it
> expose a tab, or spaces. But if a tab, then how can the cursor be inside
> the tab when emitting \t\b. That's the *whole* problem at stake.

So you are saying that even using cursor movement commands could cause
problems, because it is not known what the terminal will store?  And
that Emacs should only use SPCes for that reason?  Or what am I
missing?

> And thus why I mentioned looking for an actual document that explictly
> says that \t is supposed to produce spaces, because for now the vte
> maintainer is saying that there is no text there and thus it should not
> be exposed to the accessibility layer, but then the cursor is getting
> wrong, making emacs essentially unusable as it is now. If I had a text
> that explicitly says that \t produces content, it would be way easier
> to fix this on the vte side. For now, we have been stuck for a *decade*
> there.

I think I understand, but the refusal of the vte developers to provide
some solution doesn't mean it becomes the responsibility of Emacs to
solve that, does it?

Also, what about the "stty -tabs" workaround -- does it work with vte
and rxvt?

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:16:02 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> And you are proposing to probe for the existence of a process to decide
> the emacs behavior. There has been already half a dozen graphical
> screen readers, some of which have even changed name. How can that be
> considered a solution when we are talking about just adding one byte...

I suggested that as an idea.  I don't know if it is practical or not,
but I wanted to leave no rock unturned.  (Recognizing half a dozen
names of programs doesn't sound terrible to me, if it will give us
what we want: the ability to disable \t\b when it could matter, and
not in other cases.)

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:27:30 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Samuel Thibault, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:16:02 +0200, a ecrit:
> > And not a solution that will break as soon as somebody creates their
> > own screen reader for their own use.
> 
> To put some context here: one of the latest screen readers out there,
> odilia, is already concerned by the amount of existing workarounds
> for accessibility in general. If they bang their head against walls
> concerning \t\b, wondering why that works with the well-known orca
> screen reader, and not with their own, and end up seeing a hardcoded
> list of the screen readers that are fortunate enough to be known enough
> to get the proper behavior of emacs in vte, as opposed to the screen
> reader that they are trying to write, then yes, I believe they could
> almost litteraly throw up.

Emacs makes it very easy to modify such databases.  Saying the names
of such programs are "hardcoded" is not really accurate for Emacs,
because we can expose the list as a user option, so users could easily
add/remove programs as needed.

Again, I'm not saying this must be the solution, but it could be, from
where I stand.

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> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,  Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN,
>   bzg@HIDDEN,  78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:45:12 +0200
> 
> >>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:33:38 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> 
>     >> That was my misinterpretation of the request. Itʼs easy enough to
>     >> restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but weʼll have to
>     >> come up with a new name for the user option :-)
> 
>     Samuel> Since \t\b is actually slower than \e[C, I don't see why it should be an
>     Samuel> option.
> 
> Youʼre a braver man than I to make such a statement, and I for one
> will not propose a change like this that cannot be controlled with a
> variable of some sort.

Yes, I agree.  If only to have a "fire escape" if we ever bump into
some use case where this change might be a culprit, and will want an
easy way of testing that.

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And of course, this discussion about which screen reader is running does
not even take into account the ssh case where a blind user is using one
computer with a screen reader to ssh into another where emacs is run.
How then is the emacs run on the server supposed to guess that a screen
reader is being used?

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Robert Pluim (2025/07/22 14:45 +0200):
> >>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:33:38 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
>
>     >> That was my misinterpretation of the request. Itʼs easy enough to
>     >> restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but weʼll have to
>     >> come up with a new name for the user option :-)
>
>     Samuel> Since \t\b is actually slower than \e[C, I don't see why it should be an
>     Samuel> option.
>
> Youʼre a braver man than I to make such a statement, and I for one
> will not propose a change like this that cannot be controlled with a
> variable of some sort.

I am not sure it's a matter of bravety. Do we know one context in
whichthe new way would not be desirable and where one may want to not
have that change?

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Subject: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
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Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 16:27 +0300):
> > Yes, screen readers have always had to be privileged somehow.
>
> Which maybe gives us a way to detect them?

Frankly Eli, I cannot urge you enough to just forget about this idea, as
swiftly as possible, for your own good (and ours).

There is the ssh case I mentionned and also, if you go through the WCAG
and all the principles of the Internet, sane communication is based on
agreements on what is exchanged which do not try to depend on which
software is on the other side.

Did you once see one RFC specifying what theprotocol should be depending
on which client or server one is talking to?

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Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 16:18 +0300):
> What we need is to implement a prototype of the change to disable the
> above, and then time it on a large enough buffer.

Assuming the time actually does depend on the buffer's size, whihc I am
very not convinced about.

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes:

>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:10:11 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault=
@gnu.org> said:
>
>     Samuel> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:08:09 +0300, a ecrit:
>     >> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:25:05 +0200
>     >> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
>     >> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
>     >> > 	Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN,
>     >> > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>     >> >=20
>     >> > > > Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
>     >> > >=20
>     >> > > You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can mo=
ve in
>     >> > > multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt it=CA=BCs that cut and d=
ried.
>     >> >=20
>     >> > The case which actually poses problem is only that \t\b vs \e[C.=
 Using
>     >> > tab without moving back with \b does not pose problem.
>     >>=20
>     >> If that's the only problematic case, then disabling TABs as in the
>     >> proposed patch is not TRT.
>
>     Samuel> I don't think I asked for this, and only confirmed that it's =
one way to
>     Samuel> do it.
>
> That was my misinterpretation of the request. It=CA=BCs easy enough to
> restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but we=CA=BCll have to
> come up with a new name for the user option :-)

What about this?

--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-patch
Content-Disposition: inline;
 filename=0001-Do-not-overshoot-and-backup-for-tty-motions.patch

From 002efa4bd1db6efd9f65dc43364b084680906753 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Manuel Giraud <manuel@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 15:15:39 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Do not overshoot and backup for tty motions

---
 src/cm.c | 24 +++---------------------
 1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 21 deletions(-)

diff --git a/src/cm.c b/src/cm.c
index 150d1c9a580..fb18ef26251 100644
--- a/src/cm.c
+++ b/src/cm.c
@@ -187,9 +187,7 @@ calccost (struct tty_display_info *tty,
                     c,
                     totalcost;
     int     ntabs,
-            n2tabs,
             tabx,
-            tab2x,
             tabcost;
     register const char *p;
 
@@ -229,37 +227,21 @@ calccost (struct tty_display_info *tty,
 	goto olddelta;		/* forget it! */
 
     /*
-     * ntabs is # tabs towards but not past dstx; n2tabs is one more
-     * (ie past dstx), but this is only valid if that is not past the
-     * right edge of the screen.  We can check that at the same time
-     * as we figure out where we would be if we use the tabs (which
-     * we will put into tabx (for ntabs) and tab2x (for n2tabs)).
+     * ntabs is # tabs towards but not past dstx.  tabx is where we
+     * would be if we put those ntabs tabulations.
      */
 
     ntabs = (deltax + srcx % tty->Wcm->cm_tabwidth) / tty->Wcm->cm_tabwidth;
-    n2tabs = ntabs + 1;
     tabx = (srcx / tty->Wcm->cm_tabwidth + ntabs) * tty->Wcm->cm_tabwidth;
-    tab2x = tabx + tty->Wcm->cm_tabwidth;
-
-    if (tab2x >= tty->Wcm->cm_cols)	/* too far (past edge) */
-	n2tabs = 0;
 
     /*
-     * Now set tabcost to the cost for using ntabs, and c to the cost
-     * for using n2tabs, then pick the minimum.
+     * Now set tabcost to the cost for using ntabs.
      */
 
 		   /* cost for ntabs           +    cost for right motion */
     tabcost = ntabs ? ntabs * tty->Wcm->cc_tab + (dstx - tabx) * tty->Wcm->cc_right
 		    : BIG;
 
-		   /* cost for n2tabs          +    cost for left motion */
-    c = n2tabs  ?    n2tabs * tty->Wcm->cc_tab + (tab2x - dstx) * tty->Wcm->cc_left
-		: BIG;
-
-    if (c < tabcost)		/* then cheaper to overshoot & back up */
-	ntabs = n2tabs, tabcost = c, tabx = tab2x;
-
     if (tabcost >= BIG)		/* caint use tabs */
 	goto newdelta;
 
-- 
2.50.1


--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Words of warning: I'm not a heavy user of tty emacs and don't really
have an idea of what would be the implications of such change (don't
shoot me).  But maybe, Samuel and Sebastien could try this and see if it
solves their issue.  Then, we could decide to guard behind a user option
and what would be the default.
-- 
Manuel Giraud

--=-=-=--

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 15:54:33 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> And of course, this discussion about which screen reader is running does
> not even take into account the ssh case where a blind user is using one
> computer with a screen reader to ssh into another where emacs is run.
> How then is the emacs run on the server supposed to guess that a screen
> reader is being used?

If there's no way of knowing that, the option we are talking about
will still be available to disable the problematic sequences manually.
(And of course, if the remote login uses a terminal emulator that is
not affected by these issues, the problem will not exist in the first
place.)

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 15:59:24 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
> 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Robert Pluim (2025/07/22 14:45 +0200):
> > >>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:33:38 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> >
> >     >> That was my misinterpretation of the request. Itʼs easy enough to
> >     >> restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but weʼll have to
> >     >> come up with a new name for the user option :-)
> >
> >     Samuel> Since \t\b is actually slower than \e[C, I don't see why it should be an
> >     Samuel> option.
> >
> > Youʼre a braver man than I to make such a statement, and I for one
> > will not propose a change like this that cannot be controlled with a
> > variable of some sort.
> 
> I am not sure it's a matter of bravety. Do we know one context in
> whichthe new way would not be desirable and where one may want to not
> have that change?

We have enough gray hair to know that such contexts will almost
certainly reveal themselves at some point.  And if they don't, then
the option which is never used will; not do any harm, will it?

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Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 17:18 +0300):
> If there's no way of knowing that, the option we are talking about
> will still be available to disable the problematic sequences manually.

The second part of the discussion: what should be the default.

Backward-compatibility matters suggest to continue to emit exactly the
same thing and the possibility to disable the problematic sequence but,
as I explained earlier in this thread, I really findthis painful and
unfair to people who already have to tinker with everything.

Can we please consider makingthe new style the default and provide the
option to re-enable the sequence if there are people forwhom it
actuallymakes a difference?

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 16:06:15 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 16:27 +0300):
> > > Yes, screen readers have always had to be privileged somehow.
> >
> > Which maybe gives us a way to detect them?
> 
> Frankly Eli, I cannot urge you enough to just forget about this idea, as
> swiftly as possible, for your own good (and ours).
> 
> There is the ssh case I mentionned and also, if you go through the WCAG
> and all the principles of the Internet, sane communication is based on
> agreements on what is exchanged which do not try to depend on which
> software is on the other side.

If better methods are possible, they are of course preferred.  But if
they are impossible, I don't want to reject other methods, even if
they are less elegant.

> Did you once see one RFC specifying what theprotocol should be depending
> on which client or server one is talking to?

Yes, of course.  Emacs has several features where we change behavior
depending on which external program we are communicating with or using
as a sub-process.

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 16:07:14 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 16:18 +0300):
> > What we need is to implement a prototype of the change to disable the
> > above, and then time it on a large enough buffer.
> 
> Assuming the time actually does depend on the buffer's size, whihc I am
> very not convinced about.

The buffer size is a means to get a good average measure of the speed.

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Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 17:25 +0300):
> > Did you once see one RFC specifying what theprotocol should be depending
> > on which client or server one is talking to?
>
> Yes, of course.  Emacs has several features where we change behavior
> depending on which external program we are communicating with or using
> as a sub-process.

I was asking about RFCs and you respond  Emacs...

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 16:24:28 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: samuel.thibault@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 17:18 +0300):
> > If there's no way of knowing that, the option we are talking about
> > will still be available to disable the problematic sequences manually.
> 
> The second part of the discussion: what should be the default.

If the default is not right for everyone, setting the option manually
is still a viable alternative -- provided that we succeed to handle
the majority of the cases correctly.

> Backward-compatibility matters suggest to continue to emit exactly the
> same thing and the possibility to disable the problematic sequence but,
> as I explained earlier in this thread, I really findthis painful and
> unfair to people who already have to tinker with everything.
> 
> Can we please consider makingthe new style the default and provide the
> option to re-enable the sequence if there are people forwhom it
> actuallymakes a difference?

That's what we are discussing.  We are not done yet.  In fact, we
don't even have a working agreed-upon patch which implements the
request when \t\b sequences are disabled.  The question of the default
behavior will become relevant once we are past that.

So please be a bit more patient while we discuss this.

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 16:28:30 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: samuel.thibault@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 17:25 +0300):
> > > Did you once see one RFC specifying what theprotocol should be depending
> > > on which client or server one is talking to?
> >
> > Yes, of course.  Emacs has several features where we change behavior
> > depending on which external program we are communicating with or using
> > as a sub-process.
> 
> I was asking about RFCs and you respond  Emacs...

But we _are_ talking about Emacs.  Emacs is not driven by RFCs, and
doesn't blindly follow RFCs unless we consider that useful.

I think the fact that Emacs already takes specific programs into
consideration means that such solutions _are_ possible.  If we
conclude that doing so would be a reasonably good solution for this
problem, I don't see why we should not use that.  If such a solution
will make our users happy, why should anyone care whether it follows
some RFC or is pretty?

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> Cc: bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@HIDDEN,
>  samuel.thibault@HIDDEN
> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 17:46:35 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
> 
> > Backward-compatibility matters suggest to continue to emit exactly the
> > same thing and the possibility to disable the problematic sequence but,
> > as I explained earlier in this thread, I really findthis painful and
> > unfair to people who already have to tinker with everything.
> > 
> > Can we please consider makingthe new style the default and provide the
> > option to re-enable the sequence if there are people forwhom it
> > actuallymakes a difference?
> 
> That's what we are discussing.  We are not done yet.  In fact, we
> don't even have a working agreed-upon patch which implements the
> request when \t\b sequences are disabled.  The question of the default
> behavior will become relevant once we are past that.
> 
> So please be a bit more patient while we discuss this.

Btw, let me make sure I understand correctly: is screen-reading
software affected by this only on those two kinds of terminals (rxvt
and vte), where \t\b produces wrong output?  Or do other terminals,
where the above sequence is processed correctly, also dupe screen
readers into reading incorrect content?

If only those two terminals are affected, both in the effect of the
cursor motion and what that does to screen readers, then we could
disable the \t\b sequence only for those two terminals.  Emacs can
look at the name of the terminal to decide what to do.

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Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 18:47 +0300):
> Btw, let me make sure I understand correctly: is screen-reading
> software affected by this only on those two kinds of terminals (rxvt
> and vte), where \t\b produces wrong output?

I am not completely sure and would rather let Samuel complete here. What
I know isthat libvte is used for several terminals so I expect all of
them to  be affected.

> If only those two terminals are affected, both in the effect of the
> cursor motion and what that does to screen readers, then we could
> disable the \t\b sequence only for those two terminals.  Emacs can
> look at the name of the terminal to decide what to do.

Would that be ssh-proof? Andwhat about running screen or tmux in such a
terminal?

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 18:05:14 +0200
> From: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>
> Cc: samuel.thibault@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	rpluim@HIDDEN
> 
> Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 18:47 +0300):
> > Btw, let me make sure I understand correctly: is screen-reading
> > software affected by this only on those two kinds of terminals (rxvt
> > and vte), where \t\b produces wrong output?
> 
> I am not completely sure and would rather let Samuel complete here. What
> I know isthat libvte is used for several terminals so I expect all of
> them to  be affected.

We can still know the names of those terminals, even if they are more
than 2.

> > If only those two terminals are affected, both in the effect of the
> > cursor motion and what that does to screen readers, then we could
> > disable the \t\b sequence only for those two terminals.  Emacs can
> > look at the name of the terminal to decide what to do.
> 
> Would that be ssh-proof?

You need to set TERM in the ssh session.

> And what about running screen or tmux in such a terminal?

Again, TERM should be set.

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 18:47:18 +0300, a ecrit:
> Btw, let me make sure I understand correctly: is screen-reading
> software affected by this only on those two kinds of terminals (rxvt
> and vte), where \t\b produces wrong output?

Yes. But vte happens to be the only terminal layer that implements
accessibility. Screen readers cannot be used with all the others.

Seb Hinderer, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 18:05:14 +0200, a ecrit:
> I am not completely sure and would rather let Samuel complete here. What
> I know isthat libvte is used for several terminals so I expect all of
> them to  be affected.

Yes, there is a dozen of those in Debian, at least.

> If only those two terminals are affected, both in the effect of the
> cursor motion and what that does to screen readers, then we could
> disable the \t\b sequence only for those two terminals.  Emacs can
> look at the name of the terminal to decide what to do.

No, it cannot.

Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 19:59:50 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Emacs can look at the name of the terminal to decide what to do.
> > 
> > Would that be ssh-proof?
> 
> You need to set TERM in the ssh session.

Yes, although libvte announces itself as xterm-256color.

> > And what about running screen or tmux in such a terminal?
> 
> Again, TERM should be set.

In that case it's actually screen and tmux that interpret sequences, and
TERM is then screen and tmux. And those happen not to be using the \t\b
trick when re-displaying their output, so they "fix" the issue.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:24:47 +0300, a ecrit:
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:03:52 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Of course, specially-tailored cases could be concocted which show the
> > > contrary, but that's not what this code is about.  The request in this
> > > bug report, AFAIU, was to disable the use of TABs _in_all_cases_,
> > 
> > No.
> > 
> > “
> > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > 
> > This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
> > visually impaired.
> > ”
> 
> We are mis-communicating.  When I said "in all cases", I meant even
> when TABs do not cause any problems and/or when screen-reading
> software is not used at all.

But we were talking about my benchmark moving only by one character
(where the optimization loses) vs moving by 8 characters (where it
most probably wins since that's 8 interpretations and 8 bytes vs 1
interpretation and 1 byte).

The discussion was not about it being a default for everybody or not.

> > I don't remember really asking for more than that.
> 
> A reminder from https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=78474#77

Yes, and I do agree with really asking for that one: we don't want to
put the burden of configuration on people who already have a hard time
using computers.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:31:54 +0300, a ecrit:
> Also, what about the "stty -tabs" workaround -- does it work with vte
> and rxvt?

Of course, since emacs then duly respects not using tabs at all.

But again, that's to be configured (and even more arcane than modifying
.emacs)

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:18:48 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:28:19 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > I have tried the attached test which reproduces both ways and reports
> > > > the time to achieve one million iteration, on my system:
> > > > 
> > > > - with rxvt: non-optimized way takes ~1.9s, optimized way takes ~2.1s.
> > > > - with mate-terminal: non-optimized way takes ~1.8s, optimized way takes
> > > >   ~2.0s.
> > > > 
> > > > So on my system at least the "optimized" way is actually slower.
> > > 
> > > For that particular single case.
> > 
> > Which is exactly the case that we are reporting about.
> 
> No, it isn't.  Not even if only \t\b should be disabled.

? I don't understand.

\t\b really is the only issue that we are having.

And the benchmark above, which you can try on various terminals, does
show that \t\b happens to be less efficient than \e[C. So it would
actually benefit everybody to just use \e[C by default instead of \t\b.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:26:38 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > But now you have changed the request, and are asking to disable the
> > > TABs by default.
> > 
> > I'm not *asking* for something in particular. I'm asking for a solution
> > to the *actual* problem, which is \009\008.
> 
> Yes, by default (as opposed to an opt-in solution).  That's what I
> meant.  Apologies if that wasn't clear.

Thanks for making it clear. It's indeed important that we get our exact
respective positions.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:42:29 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Samuel Thibault, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:16:02 +0200, a ecrit:
> > and end up seeing a hardcoded
> > list of the screen readers that are fortunate enough to be known enough
> > to get the proper behavior of emacs in vte,
> 
> Emacs makes it very easy to modify such databases.  Saying the names
> of such programs are "hardcoded" is not really accurate for Emacs,
> because we can expose the list as a user option, so users could easily
> add/remove programs as needed.

But it's *really* hard for users to walk the way from "the cursor does
not move when I press space!" down to "maybe I should try disabling the
use of tab for optimization". I don't think Sebastien would have found
such an option or even thought it could have existed.

Samuel

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Andreas Schwab, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:48:20 +0200, a ecrit:
> On Jul 21 2025, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> 
> > It is. Cat /dev/vcs, and you have it.
> 
> /dev/vcs contains the rendered contents, so how they were drawn should
> not make any difference.

The question of this thread piece was not about that, but about screen
readers being able to read the screen without getting announced to
applications in any way.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 17:26:06 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 16:18 +0300):
> > > What we need is to implement a prototype of the change to disable the
> > > above, and then time it on a large enough buffer.
> > 
> > Assuming the time actually does depend on the buffer's size, whihc I am
> > very not convinced about.
> 
> The buffer size is a means to get a good average measure of the speed.

But it also makes saving one byte even less a bonus... I tried to write
100 right-left movements (\t\b\b vs \e[C\b) at a time, the \t\b trick
takes ~30s while the standard \e[C takes ~5s.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:31:54 +0300, a ecrit:
> > If I had a text that explicitly says that \t produces content, it
> > would be way easier to fix this on the vte side. For now, we have
> > been stuck for a *decade* there.
> 
> I think I understand, but the refusal of the vte developers to provide
> some solution doesn't mean it becomes the responsibility of Emacs to
> solve that, does it?

emacs is the only program we know that uses such \t\b trick and thus
poses cursor position problem.

Samuel

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Manuel Giraud, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:09:33 +0200, a ecrit:
> Robert Pluim <rpluim@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> >>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:10:11 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> >
> >     Samuel> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:08:09 +0300, a ecrit:
> >     >> > Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 18:25:05 +0200
> >     >> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> >     >> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,
> >     >> > 	Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, bzg@HIDDEN,
> >     >> > 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >     >> > 
> >     >> > > > Samuel> It's actually even slower on my box.
> >     >> > > 
> >     >> > > You benchmarked moving by one character. Moving by tabs can move in
> >     >> > > multiples of 8 characters, so I doubt itʼs that cut and dried.
> >     >> > 
> >     >> > The case which actually poses problem is only that \t\b vs \e[C. Using
> >     >> > tab without moving back with \b does not pose problem.
> >     >> 
> >     >> If that's the only problematic case, then disabling TABs as in the
> >     >> proposed patch is not TRT.
> >
> >     Samuel> I don't think I asked for this, and only confirmed that it's one way to
> >     Samuel> do it.
> >
> > That was my misinterpretation of the request. Itʼs easy enough to
> > restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but weʼll have to
> > come up with a new name for the user option :-)
> 
> What about this?

It looks like a very good candidate, thanks!  I'm trying it.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:31:54 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:15:28 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > What you copy/paste and what is written to the screen are not
> > > necessarily the same thing.  The effect of TAB on the screen is to
> > > move the cursor (or the rest of the line's text) to the right by a
> > > suitably-computed number of columns, which depends on the column where
> > > you do that.  What is copy/paste'd depends on the program which
> > > serves the copy: some give you TAB, others give you spaces.
> > > 
> > > > Also, if you run:
> > > > 
> > > > echo -e 'a\t'
> > > > 
> > > > is there actually supposed to be some content to copy/paste on the right
> > > > of a?
> > > 
> > > IME, also depends on the program which serves the copy/paste.
> > > 
> > > (I think these aspects are tangents, not an integral part of this
> > > discussion.)
> > 
> > They are fully part of the discussion, because that changes what is
> > actually supposed to be stored in the terminal, and thus what the
> > accessibility feature is supposed to expose to the user: should it
> > expose a tab, or spaces. But if a tab, then how can the cursor be inside
> > the tab when emitting \t\b. That's the *whole* problem at stake.
> 
> So you are saying that even using cursor movement commands could cause
> problems,

The problem is that some people consider \t as not being only a cursor
movement. That's the whole point of the question raised above.

> because it is not known what the terminal will store?  And
> that Emacs should only use SPCes for that reason?

\t alone seems to be not posing problems, and is fine to keep to
optimize some cursor movements. It's \t\b which gets wrong.

Samuel

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Re,

Manuel Giraud, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:09:33 +0200, a ecrit:
> >>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:10:11 +0200, Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
> > That was my misinterpretation of the request. Itʼs easy enough to
> > restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but weʼll have to
> > come up with a new name for the user option :-)
> 
> What about this?

Yes, that works!

> From 002efa4bd1db6efd9f65dc43364b084680906753 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Manuel Giraud <manuel@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 15:15:39 +0200
> Subject: [PATCH] Do not overshoot and backup for tty motions
> 
> ---
>  src/cm.c | 24 +++---------------------
>  1 file changed, 3 insertions(+), 21 deletions(-)
> 
> diff --git a/src/cm.c b/src/cm.c
> index 150d1c9a580..fb18ef26251 100644
> --- a/src/cm.c
> +++ b/src/cm.c

> -    if (c < tabcost)		/* then cheaper to overshoot & back up */
> -	ntabs = n2tabs, tabcost = c, tabx = tab2x;
> -
>      if (tabcost >= BIG)		/* caint use tabs */
>  	goto newdelta;

Samuel

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Samuel Thibault (2025/07/22 20:08 +0200):
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:42:29 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Samuel Thibault, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:16:02 +0200, a ecrit:
> > > and end up seeing a hardcoded
> > > list of the screen readers that are fortunate enough to be known enough
> > > to get the proper behavior of emacs in vte,
> >
> > Emacs makes it very easy to modify such databases.  Saying the names
> > of such programs are "hardcoded" is not really accurate for Emacs,
> > because we can expose the list as a user option, so users could easily
> > add/remove programs as needed.
>
> But it's *really* hard for users to walk the way from "the cursor does
> not move when I press space!" down to "maybe I should try disabling the
> use of tab for optimization". I don't think Sebastien would have found
> such an option or even thought it could have existed.

I confirm. And it's not that I am a noob. Well I am, but at the same
time I am also an engineer, so likely what is going to be hard
andpainful for me will be way more so for people who are less into
computers.

And realise that this would be multiplied by the number of software to
use. Just not  viable.

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Samuel Thibault (2025/07/22 20:20 +0200):
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:31:54 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > If I had a text that explicitly says that \t produces content, it
> > > would be way easier to fix this on the vte side. For now, we have
> > > been stuck for a *decade* there.
> >
> > I think I understand, but the refusal of the vte developers to provide
> > some solution doesn't mean it becomes the responsibility of Emacs to
> > solve that, does it?
>
> emacs is the only program we know that uses such \t\b trick and thus
> poses cursor position problem.

And the road down to this findking has been quite longbecause we first
had to fix all the problems in vte, which took the decade Samuel
mentionned and is still not integrated, before then realising that
although we get a nice behaviour with editors suchas vimor joe, that
didn't hold for Emacs. And it took another bunch of time and brain
resources to figure out what was going on there. Credit again goes to
Samuel for that.

A very friendly note to the Emacs maintainers whoare reading this
thread: my intention is *not* tomake you feel bad. I appreciate that you
are here, discuss, genuinely try tounderstand. Precisely, to broaden
your understanding, I would like to explain one point you may be missing
and it's certainly not your faul if you are missing it, but please read
me and think over it.

The discussion we are currently having with you, wehave to  haveon
dozens and dozens of projects. So yes, having to have such discussions
again and again is super tiring and it's kind of a miracle that people
like Samuel are still there, although not directly concerned.

We try to suggest solutions that are viable, as "main stream" as
possible because we believe that the best thing that can happen to
accessibility is that it gets integrated to programs as readily as
possible.

As much as possible, we would like to avoid that accessibility has to go
to dedicated code paths because we know from experience tat, in the long
run, such code paths will receive less testing and maintenance
attenition.

And I think this becomes even more true if, as it seems to be the case
here, the proposed code is actually cleaner, more efficient and more
standard than what was done before. Tome, the fact that the former code
has not had to change for decades does not mean it shouldn't be changed
now.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> writes:

> Re,
>
> Manuel Giraud, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:09:33 +0200, a ecrit:
>> >>>>>> On Tue, 22 Jul 2025 14:10:11 +0200, Samuel Thibault
>> > <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN> said:
>> > That was my misinterpretation of the request. It=CA=BCs easy enough to
>> > restrict the change to only affect the '\t\b' case, but we=CA=BCll hav=
e to
>> > come up with a new name for the user option :-)
>>=20
>> What about this?
>
> Yes, that works!

Thanks.  So maybe next step is to decide if we keep this overshoot
behaviour guarded behind a user option (I propose
`inhibit-overshoot-in-tty-motions') and, the hard question, what should
be its default?
--=20
Manuel Giraud

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On Jul 22 2025, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Andreas Schwab, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:48:20 +0200, a ecrit:
>> On Jul 21 2025, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>> 
>> > It is. Cat /dev/vcs, and you have it.
>> 
>> /dev/vcs contains the rendered contents, so how they were drawn should
>> not make any difference.
>
> The question of this thread piece was not about that, but about screen
> readers being able to read the screen without getting announced to
> applications in any way.

Since screen readers using /dev/vcs are not affected by this issue they
are irrelevant here.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@HIDDEN
GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE  1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7
"And now for something completely different."

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Andreas Schwab, le mer. 23 juil. 2025 10:06:19 +0200, a ecrit:
> On Jul 22 2025, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Andreas Schwab, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:48:20 +0200, a ecrit:
> >> On Jul 21 2025, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> >> 
> >> > It is. Cat /dev/vcs, and you have it.
> >> 
> >> /dev/vcs contains the rendered contents, so how they were drawn should
> >> not make any difference.
> >
> > The question of this thread piece was not about that, but about screen
> > readers being able to read the screen without getting announced to
> > applications in any way.
> 
> Since screen readers using /dev/vcs are not affected by this issue they
> are irrelevant here.

It was just an example that was easier to grasp than the graphical case.

Samuel

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 19:49:31 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@HIDDEN
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 18:47:18 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Btw, let me make sure I understand correctly: is screen-reading
> > software affected by this only on those two kinds of terminals (rxvt
> > and vte), where \t\b produces wrong output?
> 
> Yes. But vte happens to be the only terminal layer that implements
> accessibility. Screen readers cannot be used with all the others.
> 
> Seb Hinderer, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 18:05:14 +0200, a ecrit:
> > I am not completely sure and would rather let Samuel complete here. What
> > I know isthat libvte is used for several terminals so I expect all of
> > them to  be affected.
> 
> Yes, there is a dozen of those in Debian, at least.

Can you name them, please?

> > If only those two terminals are affected, both in the effect of the
> > cursor motion and what that does to screen readers, then we could
> > disable the \t\b sequence only for those two terminals.  Emacs can
> > look at the name of the terminal to decide what to do.
> 
> No, it cannot.

Why not?  Looking at the value of TERM is something Emacs already
does, because it needs to load a corresponding library from
lisp/term/.  So such a library would be a natural place to set this
variable if we decide to disable \t\b on thos specific terminals by
default.

> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 19:59:50 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > Emacs can look at the name of the terminal to decide what to do.
> > > 
> > > Would that be ssh-proof?
> > 
> > You need to set TERM in the ssh session.
> 
> Yes, although libvte announces itself as xterm-256color.

So we could have a terminal which sets TERM=xterm-256color, but which
doesn't behave like xterm does?

> > > And what about running screen or tmux in such a terminal?
> > 
> > Again, TERM should be set.
> 
> In that case it's actually screen and tmux that interpret sequences, and
> TERM is then screen and tmux. And those happen not to be using the \t\b
> trick when re-displaying their output, so they "fix" the issue.

Thus no problem.

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 19:56:05 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:24:47 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > > Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:03:52 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > Of course, specially-tailored cases could be concocted which show the
> > > > contrary, but that's not what this code is about.  The request in this
> > > > bug report, AFAIU, was to disable the use of TABs _in_all_cases_,
> > > 
> > > No.
> > > 
> > > “
> > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > > 
> > > This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
> > > visually impaired.
> > > ”
> > 
> > We are mis-communicating.  When I said "in all cases", I meant even
> > when TABs do not cause any problems and/or when screen-reading
> > software is not used at all.
> 
> But we were talking about my benchmark moving only by one character
> (where the optimization loses) vs moving by 8 characters (where it
> most probably wins since that's 8 interpretations and 8 bytes vs 1
> interpretation and 1 byte).
> 
> The discussion was not about it being a default for everybody or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a request to disable sending
\t\b sequence on all the terminals, even on those which process \t\b
correctly and if the screen-reading software is not being used, right?
That is what I mean by "in all cases", and we are definitely
discussing this issue, the alternative being that either (a) users who
are affected will have to manually disable the use of \t\b, or (b) we
will find a way to disable \t\b automatically on systems and/or for
users that _are_ affected.

> > > I don't remember really asking for more than that.
> > 
> > A reminder from https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=78474#77
> 
> Yes, and I do agree with really asking for that one: we don't want to
> put the burden of configuration on people who already have a hard time
> using computers.

So we agree: disabling \t\b "in all cases" is what is being discussed.

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Subject: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 19:57:39 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:31:54 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Also, what about the "stty -tabs" workaround -- does it work with vte
> > and rxvt?
> 
> Of course, since emacs then duly respects not using tabs at all.
> 
> But again, that's to be configured (and even more arcane than modifying
> .emacs)

Yes.  But it is nice to know there's a workaround (e.g., for versions
of Emacs which were already released).

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Eli Zaretskii, le mer. 23 juil. 2025 13:50:24 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 19:49:31 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > Cc: bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rpluim@HIDDEN
> > 
> > Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 18:47:18 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Btw, let me make sure I understand correctly: is screen-reading
> > > software affected by this only on those two kinds of terminals (rxvt
> > > and vte), where \t\b produces wrong output?
> > 
> > Yes. But vte happens to be the only terminal layer that implements
> > accessibility. Screen readers cannot be used with all the others.
> > 
> > Seb Hinderer, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 18:05:14 +0200, a ecrit:
> > > I am not completely sure and would rather let Samuel complete here. What
> > > I know isthat libvte is used for several terminals so I expect all of
> > > them to  be affected.
> > 
> > Yes, there is a dozen of those in Debian, at least.
> 
> Can you name them, please?

The whole set of packages that depend on libvte is:

Package: aghermann
Package: astroidmail
Package: blackbox-terminal
Package: cairo-dock-plug-ins
Package: cdebconf-terminal
Package: cdebconf-terminal
Package: cherrytree
Package: easyssh
Package: emacs-libvterm
Package: geany-plugins
Package: gedit-plugins
Package: genius
Package: gnome-boxes
Package: gnome-builder
Package: gnome-console
Package: gnome-terminal
Package: gtk-d
Package: gtkterm
Package: haskell-gi-vte
Package: lxterminal
Package: mate-terminal
Package: mssh
Package: neovim
Package: pluma-plugins
Package: ptyxis
Package: qemu
Package: rasmol
Package: remmina
Package: sakura
Package: synaptic
Package: terminus
Package: termit
Package: tilda
Package: tilix
Package: timeshift
Package: virt-viewer
Package: xcfa
Package: xfce4-terminal

Among which some are indeed terminals that run a shell, others use it to
display information, etc.

My point is: there is a dozen now, and there will be more later. We
can't rely on knowling the list.

> > > If only those two terminals are affected, both in the effect of the
> > > cursor motion and what that does to screen readers, then we could
> > > disable the \t\b sequence only for those two terminals.  Emacs can
> > > look at the name of the terminal to decide what to do.
> > 
> > No, it cannot.
> 
> Why not?

Because of the details below.

> > Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 19:59:50 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > Emacs can look at the name of the terminal to decide what to do.
> > > > 
> > > > Would that be ssh-proof?
> > > 
> > > You need to set TERM in the ssh session.
> > 
> > Yes, although libvte announces itself as xterm-256color.
> 
> So we could have a terminal which sets TERM=xterm-256color, but which
> doesn't behave like xterm does?

Again, the question is: what is the expected behavior of 

echo 'a\ta'

And yes, a lot of terminals just announce themselves as xterm in TERM,
that's how it is nowadays. Fighting it is a lost cause nowadays.

> > > > And what about running screen or tmux in such a terminal?
> > > 
> > > Again, TERM should be set.
> > 
> > In that case it's actually screen and tmux that interpret sequences, and
> > TERM is then screen and tmux. And those happen not to be using the \t\b
> > trick when re-displaying their output, so they "fix" the issue.
> 
> Thus no problem.

For that case, yes.

Samuel

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Eli Zaretskii, le mer. 23 juil. 2025 13:55:06 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:24:47 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> > > > Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 15:03:52 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > Of course, specially-tailored cases could be concocted which show the
> > > > > contrary, but that's not what this code is about.  The request in this
> > > > > bug report, AFAIU, was to disable the use of TABs _in_all_cases_,
> > > > 
> > > > No.
> > > > 
> > > > “
> > > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > > > 
> > > > This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
> > > > visually impaired.
> > > > ”
> > > 
> > > We are mis-communicating.  When I said "in all cases", I meant even
> > > when TABs do not cause any problems and/or when screen-reading
> > > software is not used at all.
> > 
> > But we were talking about my benchmark moving only by one character
> > (where the optimization loses) vs moving by 8 characters (where it
> > most probably wins since that's 8 interpretations and 8 bytes vs 1
> > interpretation and 1 byte).
> > 
> > The discussion was not about it being a default for everybody or not.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a request to disable sending
> \t\b sequence on all the terminals,

There was, but not in that part of the conversation: "specially-tailored
cases could be concocted" was about the performance question. The "in
all cases" could refer to "by default" or to "for all tabs or just for
\t\b". I really only talk about the latter, and the performance figures
I showed was about that. Which then argues for making it a default,
since it'll benefit everybody! Instead of trying to find a way to change
the default depending a screen reader is there or not, which, really, is
not going to happen in a robust way.

> > > > I don't remember really asking for more than that.
> > > 
> > > A reminder from https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=78474#77
> > 
> > Yes, and I do agree with really asking for that one: we don't want to
> > put the burden of configuration on people who already have a hard time
> > using computers.
> 
> So we agree: disabling \t\b "in all cases" is what is being discussed.

Yes.

Samuel

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 20:04:06 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:18:48 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:28:19 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > I have tried the attached test which reproduces both ways and reports
> > > > > the time to achieve one million iteration, on my system:
> > > > > 
> > > > > - with rxvt: non-optimized way takes ~1.9s, optimized way takes ~2.1s.
> > > > > - with mate-terminal: non-optimized way takes ~1.8s, optimized way takes
> > > > >   ~2.0s.
> > > > > 
> > > > > So on my system at least the "optimized" way is actually slower.
> > > > 
> > > > For that particular single case.
> > > 
> > > Which is exactly the case that we are reporting about.
> > 
> > No, it isn't.  Not even if only \t\b should be disabled.
> 
> ? I don't understand.
> 
> \t\b really is the only issue that we are having.

The actual use of this affects much more.  It affects any \t\t\t...\b
sequences (with multiple TABs), and it affects them in various places
in the line (thus different values of start and destination columns).
Perhaps also other cases (the code is quite convoluted, so I'm not
sure we understand all the implications of the proposed change).  A
benchmark should use some approximately-representative sample of these
situations.  A large C source file is a good test case.

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 20:08:43 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, rpluim@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:42:29 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Samuel Thibault, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 14:16:02 +0200, a ecrit:
> > > and end up seeing a hardcoded
> > > list of the screen readers that are fortunate enough to be known enough
> > > to get the proper behavior of emacs in vte,
> > 
> > Emacs makes it very easy to modify such databases.  Saying the names
> > of such programs are "hardcoded" is not really accurate for Emacs,
> > because we can expose the list as a user option, so users could easily
> > add/remove programs as needed.
> 
> But it's *really* hard for users to walk the way from "the cursor does
> not move when I press space!" down to "maybe I should try disabling the
> use of tab for optimization". I don't think Sebastien would have found
> such an option or even thought it could have existed.

I disagree that it's so impossibly hard.  We have gobs of similar
knobs in Emacs, and Internet search is a handy tool to make these
discoverable.  We also plan adding a special "Accessibility" section
to the user manual, which will make this even easier.

But anyway, let's postpone this discussion to when (and if) we decide
that the default will be to leave \t\b enabled.  It is not useful to
argue about decisions that are not yet imminent.  We are still
discussing possible ways of disabling \t\b where that matters, which
from my POV is a better alternative.

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 20:15:51 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Seb Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN>, rpluim@HIDDEN,
> 	bzg@HIDDEN, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 17:26:06 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Eli Zaretskii (2025/07/22 16:18 +0300):
> > > > What we need is to implement a prototype of the change to disable the
> > > > above, and then time it on a large enough buffer.
> > > 
> > > Assuming the time actually does depend on the buffer's size, whihc I am
> > > very not convinced about.
> > 
> > The buffer size is a means to get a good average measure of the speed.
> 
> But it also makes saving one byte even less a bonus... I tried to write
> 100 right-left movements (\t\b\b vs \e[C\b) at a time, the \t\b trick
> takes ~30s while the standard \e[C takes ~5s.

As I wrote elsewhere, I'm interested in a real-life test case, such as
paging through xdisp.c or some other large C source file.  Synthetic
test cases are less useful in this case.

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On Jul 21 2025, Samuel Thibault wrote:

> Also, if you run:
>
> echo -e 'a\t'
>
> is there actually supposed to be some content to copy/paste on the right
> of a?

The answer is the same as to this:

printf 'a \n'

-- 
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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 20:20:39 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le mar. 22 juil. 2025 16:31:54 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > If I had a text that explicitly says that \t produces content, it
> > > would be way easier to fix this on the vte side. For now, we have
> > > been stuck for a *decade* there.
> > 
> > I think I understand, but the refusal of the vte developers to provide
> > some solution doesn't mean it becomes the responsibility of Emacs to
> > solve that, does it?
> 
> emacs is the only program we know that uses such \t\b trick and thus
> poses cursor position problem.

Emacs is not just any program.  There's nothing wrong in changing the
behavior of vte to cater to Emacs, at least as an option.  You expect
us to do the same.

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> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 20:27:17 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rpluim@HIDDEN, Sebastien.Hinderer@HIDDEN, bzg@HIDDEN,
> 	78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > > They are fully part of the discussion, because that changes what is
> > > actually supposed to be stored in the terminal, and thus what the
> > > accessibility feature is supposed to expose to the user: should it
> > > expose a tab, or spaces. But if a tab, then how can the cursor be inside
> > > the tab when emitting \t\b. That's the *whole* problem at stake.
> > 
> > So you are saying that even using cursor movement commands could cause
> > problems,
> 
> The problem is that some people consider \t as not being only a cursor
> movement. That's the whole point of the question raised above.

I'm talking about cursor movement using "left" and "right" escape
sequences.  If they also store something other than SPCes, they will
cause similar problems to screen readers, no?

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