GNU bug report logs - #78474
31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> gnu.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Cc: Sébastien Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr>,
 Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
Subject: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 00:53:13 +0200

With Emacs >= 24 in rxvt (not urxvt), steps to reproduce:

1. find a new buffer and write "Coucou"
2. hit SPC
3. see the space inserted: it is too large.

https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png illustrates the bug.

Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
(\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"

This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
visually impaired.

Sebastien reported this problem and both Samuel and Sebastien might help
with further information on how to reproduce this, if needed.


In GNU Emacs 31.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
 3.24.38, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2025-05-16 built on guerry
Repository revision: 7d7d821c495abcd740fd20f6a8df6da5bd920cd3
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101007
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)

Configured using:
 'configure --with-native-compilation --without-compress-install
 --with-mailutils --with-tree-sitter --with-imagemagick'

Configured features:
CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ
IMAGEMAGICK JPEG LCMS2 LIBSELINUX LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY
INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS TREE_SITTER WEBP X11 XDBE XIM XINERAMA XINPUT2 XPM
XRANDR GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: fr_FR.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: IBuffer

Minor modes in effect:
  global-git-commit-mode: t
  magit-auto-revert-mode: t
  server-mode: t
  pdf-occur-ibuffer-minor-mode: t
  pdf-occur-global-minor-mode: t
  envrc-global-mode: t
  envrc-mode: t
  which-key-mode: t
  hidden-mode-line-mode: t
  bzg-big-fringe-mode: t
  global-hl-line-mode: t
  pixel-scroll-mode: t
  auto-insert-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  eldoc-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  minibuffer-regexp-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  line-number-mode: t
  indent-tabs-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

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make-network-process tty-child-frames native-compile emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 3611857 536322) (symbols 48 113233 45)
 (strings 32 1093966 148111) (string-bytes 1 38051469)
 (vectors 16 319894) (vector-slots 8 4352010 963665)
 (floats 8 4560 13360) (intervals 56 217767 5934) (buffers 1064 100))

-- 
 Bastien

Message #8 received at 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
Subject: Re: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 08:13:58 +0300

> Cc: Sébastien Hinderer <Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr>,
>  Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
> From: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 00:53:13 +0200
> 
> 
> With Emacs >= 24 in rxvt (not urxvt), steps to reproduce:
> 
> 1. find a new buffer and write "Coucou"
> 2. hit SPC
> 3. see the space inserted: it is too large.
> 
> https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png illustrates the bug.
> 
> Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> 
> This char insertion problem confuses assistive technologies for the
> visually impaired.
> 
> Sebastien reported this problem and both Samuel and Sebastien might help
> with further information on how to reproduce this, if needed.

Emacs has code to estimate the cost of the various ways of getting the
same effect on a text-only terminal and choose the least expensive
one, see cm.c.  If some of the calculations there need to be augmented
to avoid confusing the technologies you mention, someone who knows
about those technologies should study the code and tell us how to
modify the calculations.  Then we could have those modifications
either optional (subject to some user option), or even unconditional.

If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
used, we could see how to fix this.

Thanks.

Message #11 received at 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> gnu.org>, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
Subject: Re: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:01:17 +0200

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> 
> If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> used, we could see how to fix this.

That is exactly what is written above.

Samuel

Message #14 received at 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
Subject: Re: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 11:05:49 +0300

> Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:01:17 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> gnu.org>, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > 
> > If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> > modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> > motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> > used, we could see how to fix this.
> 
> That is exactly what is written above.

Sorry, I don't understand: what is written above?

Message #17 received at 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
Subject: Re: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:30:01 +0200

Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 11:05:49 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > > 
> > > If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> > > modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> > > motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> > > used, we could see how to fix this.
> > 
> > That is exactly what is written above.
> 
> Sorry, I don't understand: what is written above?

?

"Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
(\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"

that is the optimization that disturbs some terminals such as rxvt or
vte.

Samuel

Message #20 received at 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> gnu.org>
To: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
Subject: Re: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:54:50 +0200

Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org> writes:

> "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"

I'd describe it as the result of the "optimization" rather than the
optimization itself...

Line 90 of cm.c, there is this if clause that leads to a comment:

	if (tty->Wcm->cm_magicwrap)
	    ;			/* "limbo" */

I guess rxvt and vte implement a variant of magicwrap that is not
handled by addcol, which leaves the cursor in "limbo" state.

Maybe Samuel you can give details on how rxvt vte handle auto/magic
wrapping and, perhaps, how addcol should be fixed?

I don't see any interaction between addcol and evalcost but I might
be wrong.

-- 
 Bastien

Message #23 received at 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
Subject: Re: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 12:18:32 +0300

> Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:30:01 +0200
> From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
> 
> Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 11:05:49 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > > > 
> > > > If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> > > > modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> > > > motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> > > > used, we could see how to fix this.
> > > 
> > > That is exactly what is written above.
> > 
> > Sorry, I don't understand: what is written above?
> 
> ?
> 
> "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> 
> that is the optimization that disturbs some terminals such as rxvt or
> vte.

Yes, but what does that mean in general?  Should Emacs refrain from
sending TAB in all the cases?  Are there other characters that should
not be sent for similar reasons?

To modify the code, it is not enough to understand what should be done
in this specific case, we need to better understand the problem and
its various aspects, in order to be able to translate that into code
changes.

Also, I'm a bit confused: you say that sending \009\008 disturbs rxvt
or vte, but the original report seemed to be not about what the
terminals do, but about what that causes to the various software
solutions for the visually impaired.  Can you please tell more about
this to resolve the confusion?

Thanks.

Message #26 received at 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
To: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
Subject: Re: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 11:26:03 +0200

Hello,

Bastien Guerry, le dim. 18 mai 2025 10:54:50 +0200, a ecrit:
> Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> 
> I'd describe it as the result of the "optimization" rather than the
> optimization itself...
> 
> Line 90 of cm.c, there is this if clause that leads to a comment:
> 
> 	if (tty->Wcm->cm_magicwrap)
> 	    ;			/* "limbo" */

But this is only about the end of a line? We are not talking about the
end of a line here.

That said, that pointed me to the optimization code in calccost, which
looks at tty->Wcm->cm_usetabs to determine whether to use tabs or not,
which is set from tabs_safe_p and TabWidth. Apparently, using 

stty -tabs

does avoid the issue, by making rxvt & vte switch to destructive tabs,
which emacs then knows to avoid just for moving the cursor.

Samuel

Message #29 received at 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
Subject: Re: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 11:33:00 +0200

Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 12:18:32 +0300, a ecrit:
> > Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 10:30:01 +0200
> > From: Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>
> > Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
> > 
> > Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 11:05:49 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > Eli Zaretskii, le dim. 18 mai 2025 08:13:58 +0300, a ecrit:
> > > > > > Quoting Samuel: "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > > > > > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > > > > 
> > > > > If Sébastien or Samuel (or someone else) can help us understand how to
> > > > > modify the cost calculations and/or what optimizations of cursor
> > > > > motion to avoid when these technologies for the visually impaired are
> > > > > used, we could see how to fix this.
> > > > 
> > > > That is exactly what is written above.
> > > 
> > > Sorry, I don't understand: what is written above?
> > 
> > ?
> > 
> > "Emacs, instead of sending a rightward cursor movement
> > (\e[C), sends \009\008 (a tabulation and a leftward cursor movement)"
> > 
> > that is the optimization that disturbs some terminals such as rxvt or
> > vte.
> 
> Yes, but what does that mean in general?  Should Emacs refrain from
> sending TAB in all the cases?

At least, having an option to avoid this optimization would be useful.

> Are there other characters that should not be sent for similar
> reasons?

I'm not aware of any other character movement sequence that would be
confused with text addition.

> Also, I'm a bit confused: you say that sending \009\008 disturbs rxvt
> or vte, but the original report seemed to be not about what the
> terminals do, but about what that causes to the various software
> solutions for the visually impaired.  Can you please tell more about
> this to resolve the confusion?

The eventual issue is that what when typing "coucou " in emacs, what
ends up sent by emacs to vte is "coucou\x09\x08", and what vte exposes
to accessibility technologies is "coucou\t", and it is then unable to
expose to them that the cursor position is in the middle of that "\t".

And it happens that rxvt gets a similar confusion, leading to that wide
cursor appearance
https://dept-info.labri.fr/~thibault/tmp/coucou.png

Samuel

Message #32 received at 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org>
To: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 78474 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault <at> gnu.org>, Sebastien.Hinderer <at> inria.fr
Subject: Re: bug#78474: 31.0.50; Wrong char insertion in rxvt
Date: Sun, 18 May 2025 11:39:39 +0200

On Mai 18 2025, Bastien Guerry wrote:

> Line 90 of cm.c, there is this if clause that leads to a comment:

That line is inside a #if 0 block.

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Andreas Schwab, schwab <at> linux-m68k.org
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