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From: Simon Josefsson <simon@HIDDEN>
To: Karl Berry <karl@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: epsf.tex: New file
In-Reply-To: <202507192115.56JLFvn2936786@HIDDEN> (Karl Berry's
message of "Sat, 19 Jul 2025 15:15:57 -0600")
References: <875xfougjg.fsf@HIDDEN>
<202507192115.56JLFvn2936786@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2025 23:45:21 +0200
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--==-=-=
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-="
--=-=-=
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Karl Berry <karl@HIDDEN> writes:
> For GNU packages, dvi and pdf will normally be tested anyway as part of
> a release, due to the need to upload the new manuals to www.gnu.org.
> Perhaps we should remove dvi from there ... -k
Yes, as a start, could we drop linking to DVI manuals from gnulib's
gendocs_template*? That ought to (gradually) at least remove them from
users eyes. The next step may be to stop generating the files, but that
is a bigger change and maybe the discussion needs to come to a still
before doing that is the right thing.
/Simon
--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: inline; filename=gnulib-gendocs.patch
diff --git a/doc/gendocs_template b/doc/gendocs_template
index 9069a54787..f342613739 100644
--- a/doc/gendocs_template
+++ b/doc/gendocs_template
@@ -58,8 +58,6 @@ without any warranty.
(%%ASCII_SIZE%%K bytes)</a>.</li>
<li><a href="%%PACKAGE%%.txt.gz">ASCII text compressed
(%%ASCII_GZ_SIZE%%K bytes gzipped)</a>.</li>
-<li><a href="%%PACKAGE%%.dvi.gz">TeX dvi file
- (%%DVI_GZ_SIZE%%K bytes gzipped)</a>.</li>
<li><a href="%%PACKAGE%%.pdf">PDF file
(%%PDF_SIZE%%K bytes)</a>.</li>
<li><a href="%%PACKAGE%%.texi.tar.gz">Texinfo source
diff --git a/doc/gendocs_template_min b/doc/gendocs_template_min
index d4968a249a..fb58adffae 100644
--- a/doc/gendocs_template_min
+++ b/doc/gendocs_template_min
@@ -69,8 +69,6 @@ without any warranty.
(%%ASCII_SIZE%%K bytes)</a>.</li>
<li><a href="%%PACKAGE%%.txt.gz">ASCII text compressed
(%%ASCII_GZ_SIZE%%K bytes gzipped)</a>.</li>
-<li><a href="%%PACKAGE%%.dvi.gz">TeX dvi file
- (%%DVI_GZ_SIZE%%K bytes gzipped)</a>.</li>
<li><a href="%%PACKAGE%%.pdf">PDF file
(%%PDF_SIZE%%K bytes)</a>.</li>
<li><a href="%%PACKAGE%%.texi.tar.gz">Texinfo source
--=-=-=--
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--==-=-=--
bug-automake@HIDDEN:bug#79052; Package automake.
Full text available.Karl Berry <karl@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.
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From: Karl Berry <karl@HIDDEN>
To: simon@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: epsf.tex: New file
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What kind of problems would attempting to build the DVI or PDF manual
really catch these days, which aren't already triggered by attempting to
make the *.info manual?
Building dvi/pdf definitely has a chance of catching errors,
since it's a complete different Texinfo implementation (texinfo.tex
vs. makeinfo). Also there's the question of ensuring that images are
included in the distribution, which is what brought up this whole
question.
However, I don't think these rather minor benefits outweigh the pain for
maintainers of building dvi (or pdf) by default, so changing automake to
not build dvi as part of distcheck seems good to me.
For GNU packages, dvi and pdf will normally be tested anyway as part of
a release, due to the need to upload the new manuals to www.gnu.org.
Perhaps we should remove dvi from there ... -k
bug-automake@HIDDEN:bug#79052; Package automake.
Full text available.Karl Berry <karl@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.
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From: Bruno Haible <bruno@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnulib@HIDDEN, Simon Josefsson <simon@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: epsf.tex: New file
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2025 21:48:29 +0200
Message-ID: <10629133.85pcf5A44T@nimes>
Organization: GNU
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Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Right. I would say that the days of the DVI and PS formats are probably
> long gone, and definitely as a default format. PDF has won.
DVI yes. PS has its use
1. as alternate format, at least in arXiv.org,
2. as easy-to-create vector graphics format.
> I tried to find any strong recommendation about DVI in the "standards"
> and "maintain" manuals, but couldn't find anything.
The Standards reference
- Makefile targets 'dvi' and 'install-dvi',
- a variable 'dvidir',
- a configure option --dvidir.
All of these would have to be removed.
> So is this about changing automake/autoconf then?
I wouldn't suggest to change Automake or Autoconf before the Standards
have been changed.
Bruno
bug-automake@HIDDEN:bug#79052; Package automake.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2025 19:32:22 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Jul 19 15:32:22 2025 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44767 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1udDID-0003U8-T2 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 15:32:22 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:470:142::17]:43038) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <simon@HIDDEN>) id 1udDIB-0003Tb-GS for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 15:32:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <simon@HIDDEN>) id 1udDHq-0006OA-Tz; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 15:32:01 -0400 Received: from uggla.sjd.se ([2001:9b1:8633::107]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <simon@HIDDEN>) id 1udDHo-0006hX-8v; 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Received: from h-178-174-130-130.a498.priv.bahnhof.se ([178.174.130.130]:59966 helo=kaka) by uggla.sjd.se with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from <simon@HIDDEN>) id 1udDHV-00BM4s-AY; Sat, 19 Jul 2025 19:31:37 +0000 From: Simon Josefsson <simon@HIDDEN> To: Bruno Haible via Gnulib discussion list <bug-gnulib@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: epsf.tex: New file In-Reply-To: <10021926.q1WVWOPYzV@nimes> (Bruno Haible via Gnulib discussion list's message of "Sat, 19 Jul 2025 15:48:40 +0200") References: <6309020.2l3rmUXbR5@nimes> <87ikjov17e.fsf@HIDDEN> <10021926.q1WVWOPYzV@nimes> OpenPGP: id=B1D2BD1375BECB784CF4F8C4D73CF638C53C06BE; url=https://josefsson.org/key-20190320.txt X-Hashcash: 1:23:250719:bug-gnulib@HIDDEN::l8R8/0vmi0M8UTi9:2SeJ X-Hashcash: 1:23:250719:karl@HIDDEN::6Zcui9sWjjh/FBf+:AD0T X-Hashcash: 1:23:250719:bruno@HIDDEN::NpEwuejUy4waseZe:28oZS X-Hashcash: 1:23:250719:bug-automake@HIDDEN::iKeaEMC53XfN2y63:AJd3 Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2025 21:28:03 +0200 Message-ID: <875xfougjg.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:9b1:8633::107; envelope-from=simon@HIDDEN; helo=uggla.sjd.se X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: bug-automake@HIDDEN, Bruno Haible <bruno@HIDDEN>, Karl Berry <karl@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bruno Haible via Gnulib discussion list <bug-gnulib@HIDDEN> writes: > Having said that, I would be in favour of retiring the DVI format from > the GNU Coding Standards. The DVI format was commonplace in the 1990ies, > but lost popularity to the PDF format starting 2008 (when PDF became an > open standard). Nowadays, even the math arXiv does not offer DVI as a > download format any more [1]. But this needs to be done through the > proper channels: first the GNU standards, then GNU Autoconf and Automake. Right. I would say that the days of the DVI and PS formats are probably long gone, and definitely as a default format. PDF has won. I tried to find any strong recommendation about DVI in the "standards" and "maintain" manuals, but couldn't find anything. There are some references to DVI that may better be to PDF but as far as I could tell, everything about documentation formats beyond *.info files are optional: https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html So is this about changing automake/autoconf then? I suppose one change is to make autoconf/automake try to build the PDF manual at 'distcheck' instead of DVI, but I think that is a more difficult change: 1) it requires additional tools not otherwise mentioned in the documents or are normally installed on people's machines, and 2) the above manuals say special things about 'texi2dvi' but nothing about the same tools for PDF. Do we really want to add new requirements for PDF that haven't been part of these documents, at this point in time? Maybe it is sufficient for 'make distcheck' to attempt to build the Info manual, which I think is already the case? And then simply drop the attempt to build *.dvi by default like the attached (untested) patch? What kind of problems would attempting to build the DVI or PDF manual really catch these days, which aren't already triggered by attempting to make the *.info manual? What is there in autoconf to change? I couldn't find anything obvious related to DVI. /Simon diff --git a/lib/am/distdir.am b/lib/am/distdir.am index e21c5a7cc..04113bf25 100644 =2D-- a/lib/am/distdir.am +++ b/lib/am/distdir.am @@ -439,7 +439,8 @@ AM_RECURSIVE_TARGETS +=3D distcheck endif %?SUBDIRS% =20 # Exists only to be overridden by the user if desired. =2DAM_DISTCHECK_DVI_TARGET =3D dvi +# Used to be 'dvi'. +AM_DISTCHECK_DVI_TARGET =3D =20 # This target untars the dist file and tries a VPATH configuration. 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Simon Josefsson <simon@HIDDEN>:bug-automake@HIDDEN.
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